C = md?

[cf2412]

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I'm finishing up 1st year and I have made a few C's this year. Several upper class have told me C=MD but I'm still concerned. Should I be worried about passing 2nd year if I've been making these kinds of grades? Also how much do basic science years' grades affect matching?

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm finishing up 1st year and I have made a few C's this year. Several upper class have told me C=MD but I'm still concerned. Should I be worried about passing 2nd year if I've been making these kinds of grades? Also how much do basic science years' grades affect matching?

Basic science year grades aren't particularly influencial in terms of matching. But it's harder to come from being a C student to the dude who rocks Step 1, and Step 1 has a huge impact on matching. So you are really laying the ground work (or not) for that test moreso than your first year grades are going to matter. Also the clinical year grades are going to to some extent turn on how much background stuff you can mine out of your memory during pimping. So it pays to push yourself.

As for C=MD, it's true for the US allo crowd. There are still more residency slots than US seniors, so if you set your signts correctly, you will land someplace. However most people in med school don't just want to be an MD, they want to be in their dream specialty. If your dream specialty is psych or peds or FP, you are good. If not, you may need to work harder. A few C's, particularly in the first year, won't have that much impact. Keep it up and you may be causing yourself some angst.

 

[medking]

Basic science year grades aren't particularly influencial in terms of matching. But it's harder to come from being a C student to the dude who rocks Step 1, and Step 1 has a huge impact on matching. So you are really laying the ground work (or not) for that test moreso than your first year grades are going to matter. Also the clinical year grades are going to to some extent turn on how much background stuff you can mine out of your memory during pimping. So it pays to push yourself.

As for C=MD, it's true for the US allo crowd. There are still more residency slots than US seniors, so if you set your signts correctly, you will land someplace. However most people in med school don't just want to be an MD, they want to be in their dream specialty. If your dream specialty is psych or peds or FP, you are good. If not, you may need to work harder. A few C's, particularly in the first year, won't have that much impact. Keep it up and you may be causing yourself some angst.

I agree with this. I think the trend is, the better you do in classes, the better you do on boards. Of course there are exceptions each way, but I think it's a pretty good trend.

One thing though is I think there is a difference between someone who can turn it up a notch or two when they want to vs someone who can't. If you're the former and get a couple C's, then I wouldn't worry. Even if you're the latter, I wouldn't worry, but just try to find different ways of studying that work for you. It could also be a thing of efficiency. Your study method might be good, but you're efficiency could kill things.

Basically, I don't know where you stand, but overall, it seems like you're doing fine so I wouldn't worry about the C's.

 

[rmaj79]

My boss, who is an MD (Medical and occupational toxicologist) told me the running joke in his day was:

What do you call the guy who makes A's in medical school?
Future Teacher
What do you call the guy who makes B's?
The best doctor
What do you call the guy who makes straight C's?
The one who makes the most money

 

[DrJosephKim]

As long as you focus your efforts during 2nd year, you should be fine.

Residencies will focus on your 3rd year grades and your exam scores. First year is pass/fail in many institutions. If you're interested in competitive residencies, make sure to get stellar grades 2nd and 3rd year.

 

[Pierce]

Just rock Step 1 and you can do anything. Grades don't matter much in the US

 

[Momentum70]

🙂we just say P=MD at our school

 

[Rollo]

Just rock Step 1 and you can do anything. Grades don't matter much in the US

I'm not picking you on Pierce but I just wanted to point out that I see this type of advice repeated over and over on these forums.

And it just doesn't make sense, to me, that you can just swing by being an average, below-average student for 2 years and expect to score well above-average on national standardized boards.

The boards are, in essence, a comprehensive exam. How can you ace them when you've done mediocre through out 2 years?

I guess there are people out there who managed to pull that off? How did they do it?

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I'm not picking you on Pierce but I just wanted to point out that I see this type of advice repeated over and over on these forums.

And it just doesn't make sense, to me, that you can just swing by being an average, below-average student for 2 years and expect to score well above-average on national standardized boards.

The boards are, in essence, a comprehensive exam. How can you ace them when you've done mediocre through out 2 years?

I guess there are people out there who managed to pull that off? How did they do it?

For one thing, the OP doesn't say what courses he got C's in. Some courses are far more important to the boards than others. For example, of the M1 courses, there tend to be a lot more questions requiring knowledge of physiology than embryology.

 

[Dwindlin]

I'm not picking you on Pierce but I just wanted to point out that I see this type of advice repeated over and over on these forums.

And it just doesn't make sense, to me, that you can just swing by being an average, below-average student for 2 years and expect to score well above-average on national standardized boards.

The boards are, in essence, a comprehensive exam. How can you ace them when you've done mediocre through out 2 years?

I guess there are people out there who managed to pull that off? How did they do it?

Anecdotal but just because someone performs "mediocre" through the first 2 years doesn't really mean that's what they could be doing. A friend of mine skated through the first 2, he was a solid C student but was over all a happier person. Then come board time, he started putting in the effort he could have been and did very well on his step 1 (>240).

Granted he also wasn't hoping for a ultra competitive specialty, so I don't know if this would have changed his outlook on the 1st two years.

 

[Rollo]

Anecdotal but just because someone performs "mediocre" through the first 2 years doesn't really mean that's what they could be doing. A friend of mine skated through the first 2, he was a solid C student but was over all a happier person. Then come board time, he started putting in the effort he could have been and did very well on his step 1 (>240).

Granted he also wasn't hoping for a ultra competitive specialty, so I don't know if this would have changed his outlook on the 1st two years.

I wonder if your friend is an exception to the rule or he is the rule?

Another misconception seems to be that you can only be a happy person if you skate by and are a solid C student. If you are an efficient student and set aside few hours each day for study, you should consistently have free time to do the things you want to do. Again, I'm not picking on you atkins, I'm just pointing out the misconception.

I remember reading these forums before starting med school and I thought for sure that I would be miserable if I wanted to get good grades. Then when I got to med school, I realized that you only become miserable if you don't manage your time right and/or let things weigh you down when they don't have to weigh you down.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

Another misconception seems to be that you can only be a happy person if you skate by and are a solid C student. If you are an efficient student and set aside few hours each day for study, you should consistently have free time to do the things you want to do. Again, I'm not picking on you atkins, I'm just pointing out the misconception....

You guys get in trouble trying to extrapolate your own experiences onto other people. There is a huge range of people in med school. Some study all the time and get A's. Some study all the time just to keep from getting F's. Others don't work hard and aren't applying themselves and could do better. The is an optimum blend for everyone, but it isn't going to be the same optimum blend. So honestly you can be totally efficient but if you are the kind of person who needs that extra work to do well, you will not have the kind of free time described above. Sorry but what worked for you doesn't for others and what seems to work for others won't work for you. The people who figure their own strengths/efficiencies do the best in med school by ignoring what others are doing.

 

[Dwindlin]

I wonder if your friend is an exception to the rule or he is the rule?

Another misconception seems to be that you can only be a happy person if you skate by and are a solid C student. If you are an efficient student and set aside few hours each day for study, you should consistently have free time to do the things you want to do. Again, I'm not picking on you atkins, I'm just pointing out the misconception.

I remember reading these forums before starting med school and I thought for sure that I would be miserable if I wanted to get good grades. Then when I got to med school, I realized that you only become miserable if you don't manage your time right and/or let things weigh you down when they don't have to weigh you down.

I actually agree with most of what you said here, hence why I said it was anecdotal. I was simply responding to your statement about having to do well in class to do well on Step 1.

And really I think L2D says it best in the post above mine.

 

[MossPoh]

It is also important to look at why someone gets a grade they did. Sometimes a prof doesn't focus on the proper material like they should or tests over completely arbitrary stuff. I've encountered that a few times where I've done mediocre in a course simply because I didn't study the notes as hard as the book, FA and brs or whatever to get an idea what was focused on.

While I might've gotten a B or even a C+ in one of the courses, I consistently did much better on the NBME exams than the vast majority of my friends that had solid A's. Does this mean I will rock the boards? Hell if I know, but everyone is different when it comes to learning. While I would put my money on the person with higher grades doing better on the boards, it isn't a guarantee they will. You have to look at everything as a whole.

 

[usermike8500]

Do you know if individual grades are visible to those making the decisions on Matching? For example, lets say I'm 40th percentile in my class in Neuroscience. Would that appear on my application? Or is it just my total class rank for the year (all the classes combined).

 

[LossForWords]

🙂we just say P=MD at our school

I wanted to put it on our class' t-shirts, but it was voted down. 😛

 

[Mattchiavelli]

The boards are, in essence, a comprehensive exam. How can you ace them when you've done mediocre through out 2 years?

I guess there are people out there who managed to pull that off? How did they do it?

One theory I have is based on poor instructors or poorly written tests. There are some general rules for NBME exams (rare use of the dreaded "which of these are NOT..." or "choose the BEST.." or "choices: A, B, C, A&B, A not D, etc") that individual course instructors don't have to follow. If a student learned well in class or taught themselves the subject well, they can do well on their step 1 and have a less than stellar grades profile for the first two years mainly because of tricky testing.

I also agree that it depends on what courses the grades come from. Our biochemistry course had a lot of extra material that never showed up on step 1. Mastering that material wouldn't be all that connected with how someone performed on step 1.

 

[jm192]

🙂we just say P=MD at our school

The one I've always heard is "What do you call the guy that graduates at the very bottom of his class?"

Doctor

 

[tncekm]

I'm not picking you on Pierce but I just wanted to point out that I see this type of advice repeated over and over on these forums.

And it just doesn't make sense, to me, that you can just swing by being an average, below-average student for 2 years and expect to score well above-average on national standardized boards.

The boards are, in essence, a comprehensive exam. How can you ace them when you've done mediocre through out 2 years?

I guess there are people out there who managed to pull that off? How did they do it?

I am a pretty middle-of-the-road medical student. However, I took my shelf exams for physio and histo, didn't even study that hard because I had passed the classes regardless of my performance, and I was top 8-10% nationally. There is a difference between "understanding" material, and being a mega-studier regurgitating dozens of old exams.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I am a pretty middle-of-the-road medical student. However, I took my shelf exams for physio and histo, didn't even study that hard because I had passed the classes regardless of my performance, and I was top 8-10% nationally. There is a difference between "understanding" material, and being a mega-studier regurgitating dozens of old exams.

I'm right there with ya on all counts. 👍

 

[Bingo]

Keep in mind that while grades for the first two years don't mean a lot come match time, they can help you get AOA which is a nice little feather in the cap that can help if you decide to apply to some of the more competitive specialties.

 

[tncekm]

Keep in mind that while grades for the first two years don't mean a lot come match time, they can help you get AOA which is a nice little feather in the cap that can help if you decide to apply to some of the more competitive specialties.

Depends on what you want to do. IMHO, AOA isn't worth the headache! 😀

 

[foofish]

Do you know if individual grades are visible to those making the decisions on Matching? For example, lets say I'm 40th percentile in my class in Neuroscience. Would that appear on my application? Or is it just my total class rank for the year (all the classes combined).

Individual course grades definitely go to programs. In your Dean's letter the first two years get about two sentences essentially rattling off how you performed, and then schools also send transcripts. In terms of class rank, that depends on your school...some rank, some break students into quartiles, some don't do any sort of ranking at all.

 

[foofish]

Depends on what you want to do. IMHO, AOA isn't worth the headache! 😀

...and not all schools do AOA (or assign it after the Match), thus sparing their students from the headache in the first place. And the fact that schools can choose not to have AOA and have their students match consistently at top programs should be a tip off on how important it is in the grand scheme of things. 😉

 

[Rollo]

I am a pretty middle-of-the-road medical student. However, I took my shelf exams for physio and histo, didn't even study that hard because I had passed the classes regardless of my performance, and I was top 8-10% nationally. There is a difference between "understanding" material, and being a mega-studier regurgitating dozens of old exams.

I agree.

That's why I have started to focus more and more on "understanding" the material. I started reading medium Robbins to solidify concepts and I'm very surprised to find that it has been helping a lot.

It's annoying though when we get tested on random minute facts on exams. But I guess this is pretty common throughout pre-clinical years across medical schools so I have no reason to complaint.

 

[tncekm]

I agree.

That's why I have started to focus more and more on "understanding" the material. I started reading medium Robbins to solidify concepts and I'm very surprised to find that it has been helping a lot.

It's annoying though when we get tested on random minute facts on exams. But I guess this is pretty common throughout pre-clinical years across medical schools so I have no reason to complaint.

Minutia is quickly forgotten, and therefore totally irrelevant. So, as long as you're passing and do well on your boards (and aren't trying to get into derm, lol), who cares, right?

 

[riceman04]

You guys get in trouble trying to extrapolate your own experiences onto other people. There is a huge range of people in med school. Some study all the time and get A's. Some study all the time just to keep from getting F's. Others don't work hard and aren't applying themselves and could do better. The is an optimum blend for everyone, but it isn't going to be the same optimum blend. So honestly you can be totally efficient but if you are the kind of person who needs that extra work to do well, you will not have the kind of free time described above. Sorry but what worked for you doesn't for others and what seems to work for others won't work for you. The people who figure their own strengths/efficiencies do the best in med school by ignoring what others are doing.

LIKE BUTTON!

 

[ddroukas]

c=fλ= 299,792,458 m/s (in a vacuum)

 

[Neuronix]

I'm not picking you on Pierce but I just wanted to point out that I see this type of advice repeated over and over on these forums.

And it just doesn't make sense, to me, that you can just swing by being an average, below-average student for 2 years and expect to score well above-average on national standardized boards.

The boards are, in essence, a comprehensive exam. How can you ace them when you've done mediocre through out 2 years?

I guess there are people out there who managed to pull that off? How did they do it?

I actually did exactly that. I studied specifically for Step 1, didn't pay attention to anything I (and the BRS series, usually) thought was minutae, and barely passed the basic science portion of med school. Our school is H/P/F during basic science, and I never honored a single course, getting the minimum passing exam score 5 times. I mean cmon, they had to have rounded up a few times. I think our exams in general were poorly written, read my mind types of questions that were based more on the lectures than on broad understanding of material. My school is extremely competitive, so the exams were written to trip people up in order to establish some kind of curve. I just didn't even bother playing the game.

I studied the average amount of time for Step 1 at our school and scored over my school's average (well over the national average).

I am now applying for a very competitive specialty. But of course specialties don't care about your grades in the first two years, especially with a good step 1 score. So I don't really care about those grades anyway. Maybe derm is different I hear? Shrug.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I actually did exactly that. I studied specifically for Step 1, didn't pay attention to anything I (and the BRS series, usually) thought was minutae, and barely passed the basic science portion of med school. Our school is H/P/F during basic science, and I never honored a single course, getting the minimum passing exam score 5 times. I mean cmon, they had to have rounded up a few times. I think our exams in general were poorly written, read my mind types of questions that were based more on the lectures than on broad understanding of material. My school is extremely competitive, so the exams were written to trip people up in order to establish some kind of curve. I just didn't even bother playing the game.

I studied the average amount of time for Step 1 at our school and scored over my school's average (well over the national average).

What he said.

 

[Rollo]

What type of sources did you guys use to specifically study for step 1 during your pre-clinical years?

Originally, I tried sticking to review books but I didn't understand the material so none of the material stuck.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I used review books exclusively and never went to class. Granted, I haven't actually taken Step 1 yet, but practice tests are looking good so far.

 

[abmd]

I used review books exclusively and never went to class. Granted, I haven't actually taken Step 1 yet, but practice tests are looking good so far.

What review books do you use milkman. Thanks and good luck.

 

[Neuronix]

What type of sources did you guys use to specifically study for step 1 during your pre-clinical years?

Originally, I tried sticking to review books but I didn't understand the material so none of the material stuck.

BRS mostly. Though surely for many courses I bought supplemental books. Clinical Micro Made Ridiculously Simple (though our entire micro exam was in that book), Baby Robbins, Wheater's Histology, Netter's + Rohen's, Lippincott's Pharm all come to mind.

 

[MilkmanAl]

What review books do you use milkman. Thanks and good luck.

For first year, I used Rohen's, BRS gross's chapter summaries and questions, BRS phys, RR microanatomy/cell, Grant's Dissector, Lippincott's Biochem, and Haines's neuro atlas. This year, I used our pharm and micro syllabi, Goljan, and First Aid. For Step 1, I've used gross and phys BRSs, FA, Goljan, and UWorld questions.