CA does NOT have enough med schools

[Pewl]

---

Members do not see this ad.

JBrice1639:

In an earlier post you stated that CA is not as bad off as many other states that contain fewer med schools. That is absolutely incorrect! CA is by far the worst off as far as their own residents getting into a school in their own state. There are over 30 million people in CA which means approximately one out of every eight people living in the US are in CA. And, as we all know, one in eight med schools in the nation are NOT in CA. To make things worse, only five of the eight med schools in CA are public. To make things EVEN worse, three of these five public schools are ranked in the top 15 in the nation. Even Illinois has seven med schools! Ohio has six med schools! Why, oh why, does CA only have 8?!

At this point, you probably can't think that it gets any worse.. well, it does! In addition to having 1/8 of the US population and only five public med schools, three of which are top 15 schools, CA also happens to put out the highest number of competitive applicants of all the states in the US, not necessarily the most competitve applicants in the US.. but certainly the largest quantity of them.

It just sucks to live in CA.... except for the weather of course. It was 80 degrees in LA today. =D

 

[drmota]

this thread gets the mota stamp of approval.
-mota

 

[jbrice1639]

wow...i got a thread named after me...clearly i spend too much time around here...seriously...

 

[MoosePilot]

Your numbers appear correct, but there are some major flaws in your logic. Clearly California is worse than average. You have not shown that it is the absolute worst. I believe there are states without medical schools. How is being a pre-med in California worse than being from one of those states?

Also, I would love for you to document that, "CA also happens to put out the highest number of competitive applicants of all the states in the US." What standards are you using to prove that?! I mean it might, because if 1 in 8 of Americans are from Cali, then 1 in 8 pre-meds are from Cali and 1 in 8 competitive pre-meds should be from Cali, which might very well make it the most just because of population, but that's an argument you made earlier, so why reiterate that your population is big?

 

[crazy_cavalier]

OP there is a secret system designed for threads like these. It's called the PM system. If your thread title is addressed to a person in particular, why not message them privately?

 

[jbrice1639]

OP there is a secret system designed for threads like these. It's called the PM system. If your thread title is addressed to a person in particular, why not message them privately?

i think this was supposed to be some sort of public deal since the OP chose to point out that i had been "owned" on some other thread for some comment i made back before xmas...kinda funny i guess...

 

[Pewl]

I don't think anyone's been "owned." Actually, I don't mean to attack your integrity as a person at all, jbrice. You seem like quite an affable guy. I'm probably just a bit bitter about how tough it is to get into a CA school. Forums are for ranting, anyway. =D

 

[Pewl]

Your numbers appear correct, but there are some major flaws in your logic. Clearly California is worse than average. You have not shown that it is the absolute worst. I believe there are states without medical schools. How is being a pre-med in California worse than being from one of those states?

Also, I would love for you to document that, "CA also happens to put out the highest number of competitive applicants of all the states in the US." What standards are you using to prove that?! I mean it might, because if 1 in 8 of Americans are from Cali, then 1 in 8 pre-meds are from Cali and 1 in 8 competitive pre-meds should be from Cali, which might very well make it the most just because of population, but that's an argument you made earlier, so why reiterate that your population is big?

It isn't just a population issue, it is also a STUDENT population issue, and even more specifically a PREMED STUDENT population issue. CA has proportionately the most of them. Student population is not necessarily proportional to normal population either. Just look at the city of Boston. CA has a disproportionate amount of students, even for it's large general population. This is reflected in birth rates, particularly in urban and inner city areas. You can find these stats at the census bureau. Please don't get defensive in thinking that I believe people in CA to be better students or smarter people. If anything CA public schooling systems have some of the lowest scores in the nation... BUT.... that's a whole nother issue =D.

 

[EvoDevo]

Dudes, please take a chill pill. I'm going to take a chance and move this to the topics in healthcare forum.

 

[ti89]

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005slrmat.htm


California:

4,288 Applicants
812 matriculated in state (18.9%)
2,309 not matriculate (53.8%)

Other states with lower in state matriculation rates:

Connecticut
District of Columbia (not a state but counts as a region obviously)
Maryland
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Arizona
Colorado
Oregon
Utah
Washington


Overall California does just fine if you look at overall matriculation counting of state schools.

 

[ghostchild]

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005slrmat.htm


California:

4,288 Applicants
812 matriculated in state (18.9%)
2,309 not matriculate (53.8%)

Other states with lower in state matriculation rates:

Connecticut
District of Columbia (not a state but counts as a region obviously)
Maryland
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Arizona
Colorado
Oregon
Utah
Washington


Overall California does just fine if you look at overall matriculation counting of state schools.

From what I've heard, state schools in CA also seem to accept a higher % of in-state students as well. I'm not saying it's a fair system, but it's extremely tough to get in no matter where you live not just in CA.

 

[Pewl]

From what I've heard, state schools in CA also seem to accept a higher % of in-state students as well. I'm not saying it's a fair system, but it's extremely tough to get in no matter where you live not just in CA.

ghostchild. You're missing the point. In CA you have to be far, far more competitive to get into that 18% in-state matriculation rate you just posted, as opposed to most other states.

 

[MoosePilot]

ghostchild. You're missing the point. In CA you have to be far, far more competitive to get into that 18% in-state matriculation rate you just posted, as opposed to most other states.

Do you have evidence of this? That would mean California schools would have the highest MCAT and GPA averages of any state (or at least any of the states listed that had lower in-state matriculation rates). Is that the case?

 

[Pewl]

Do you have evidence of this? That would mean California schools would have the highest MCAT and GPA averages of any state (or at least any of the states listed that had lower in-state matriculation rates). Is that the case?

Take one look in the MSAR under the average GPA and MCAT scores of the matriculants in California:

USC 3.6 33Q
Stanford 3.72 33Q
Loma Linda 3.72 30P
UCD 3.61 32Q
UCI 3.64 32Q
UCLA 3.78 34Q
UCSD 3.76 35Q
UCSF 3.8 34 Q

These averages are probably the highest AVERAGE for any state in the US. The only ones that might even come close would be MA or NY maybe. Not counting schools with one ivy league like Connecticut or something. =P

 

[QuantumMechanic]

In the end, the purpose of the medical schools is obviously to produce doctors. I don't have any statistics, but I'm sure there's no doctor shortage in Cali. In fact, I hope to goto med school out there, and end up practicing out there instead of remaining in the redneck, uberfundie christian south (bad environment for child rearing, imho). My plans may change, but right now thats what I dream of doing. Anyway, I'm sure there's alot of others like me that wish to move away from their respective states to Cali one day.

So if there's no true need for more medical education, does there need to be a change to the status quo? (<----very debatable point, I know!!!!) As it stands now, its unfortunate to be a California resident if you are a mediocre or below average applicant. The excellent premed Cali residents, however, have it made with excellent instate med schools at their disposal.

 

[Pewl]

In the end, the purpose of the medical schools is obviously to produce doctors. I don't have any statistics, but I'm sure there's no doctor shortage in Cali. In fact, I hope to goto med school out there, and end up practicing out there instead of remaining in the redneck, uberfundie christian south (bad environment for child rearing, imho). My plans may change, but right now thats what I dream of doing. Anyway, I'm sure there's alot of others like me that wish to move away from their respective states to Cali one day.

So if there's no true need for more medical education, does there need to be a change to the status quo? (<----very debatable point, I know!!!!) As it stands now, its unfortunate to be a California resident if you are a mediocre or below average applicant. The excellent premed Cali residents, however, have it made with excellent instate med schools at their disposal.

By that logic, since there's no shortage of qualified doctors, why do we offer URM status? The reason: to give certain people who deserve a chance, a chance. I believe that California schools should give more of their residents a chance, much like other states. Just because your numbers aren't quite up to par by ucsf or stanford standards does NOT mean that you will not make a great physician. California needs to build more schools to extend more chances to more of its own people. =P

 

[QuantumMechanic]

By that logic, since there's no shortage of qualified doctors, why do we offer URM status? The reason: to give certain people who deserve a chance, a chance. I believe that California schools should give more of their residents a chance, much like other states. Just because your numbers aren't quite up to par by ucsf or stanford standards does NOT mean that you will not make a great physician. California needs to build more schools to extend more chances to more of its own people. =P

I'm not going to debate the URM thing...too touchy, but I doubt that giving all the spots in Cali state schools to white californians would make the schools any less competitive (if you take a quick look in the msar, it appears that Cali state schools are still underrepresented by URMs!). Its the lack of spots that makes it competitive.

As for the numbers, how else do you suggest to pick a class of a hundred or so out of thousands of applicants? The shear number of applicants means you have to resort to numbers. Now this doesn't mean the guy with a 42 mcat is gonna be a great doctor, but why should the guy who volunteers his life away be placed higher? It comes down to academics and then secondly the big picture of the applicant since its impossible to test character and commitment.

An additional issue which may be at play (but of course I have no true inside knowledge of) may be a limited amount of residency spots in California. How would you like to be forced to take a residency in some other state? I would feel ****ty to be forced to take a residency outside of Cali simply because there weren't enough spots. Also, residencies in Cali are more competitive nationally due to the good schools. I dont think they give as great of advantage to instaters for that.

Your point brings up another issue: Why do we reject so many Americans to med school (1/2 of all applicants!) while we have to take so many international graduates to fill our residency positions?

 

[Messerschmitts]

I concurr as a second-time applicant from California (most likely being exiled to Ohio) that it is brutal trying to get into a Californian med school. I think California does indeed have a disproportionate number of people applying to medical school, probably having to do with the state's general prosperity. We all know how powerful the Californian economy is; it would be the world's 7th largest economy if it were an independent country. Richer parents mean better-educated children with more ambitious, carefully nurtured dreams and goals. In a less prosperous state, children growing up in poverty simply don't have as much expectations of themselves, and out of life (on average).

Thus we are stuck in the situation we are in. Sure, the University of Alabama accepts 40% of all in-state applicants. However, if you were born in Alabama, chances are you would have been born into a poorer family and have been brought up with less ambition and expectations of yourself, less likely to do well in school or even attempt to apply to medical school. Thus the bar is higher in California, where it's more common ("easier") to be from a well-off family who instilled dreams into your brain.

The quality and prestige of our medical schools is a mixed blessing, I agree with another poster. For most people like us, there's no way in hell we can get in. For those applicants who kick enough @$$, they have access to some of the finest medical education available on the planet, at a bargin price.

That said, I am just as cheesed off as the next Californian applicant that we have to get booted out of our own home. It really PISSES ME OFF that New York has MORE medical school seats than California, but produce half the number of our applicants. And is it our sin that our state's golden shine blinds all other states with its awesomeness? 😛 California's weather is indeed legendary and unbelieveable. Yes, everything you've been told is true. It was 80F yesterday in early January, when people in the Midwest are freezing their @$$es off. In the summer, we're generally cooler than much of the east coast. It's Eden, baby. Scores of people from other states have come to visit, then absolutely refuse to go no matter what. When I was in Berkeley my first roommate was from Utah, the second one was from Florida. Now both of them are here to stay. In fact I can't think of one out-of-state college classmate who didn't stay post-graduation. It's like a Roach Motel; out-of-staters check in, but they sure as hell don't want to check out.

With anywhere highly desireable it's gonna be competitive to stay here. Nowhere worth living is easy to squeeze into. Thus, real estate is absurdly expensive, medical school is impossible to get into, etc. I love my state to death and if I had my way, I'd live here forever. However, I fear it is very likely (or at least possible) that I will be forcibly exiled for a long time. First of all it will be 4 years of med school in the Midwest. After that, what chance do I have of scoring a Californian residency? I've heard that all residency programmes in CA are highly competitive, mainly just because of where they are. Think about it; all those bitter CA natives who got booted to the east coast for med school want to claw their way home with bloody fingers AT ANY COST, and all those lucky SOBs from out-of-state who scored a med school spot in a CA school now sure as hell aren't gonna leave after having tasted the divine awesomeness of our state. Thus that's another ~4 years in exile (I want to do either ER or OB/GYN). After that, what chance do I have of gaining employment in a Californian hospital? Something tells me those spots are (surprise, surprise) highly competitive, and then I'm just going to end up living in f#####g Nebraska or something for the rest of my life (no offence to Nebraskans. No really, you guys rock).

God, all of this is so depressing it makes me want to cry. 🙁 I LOVE CALIFORNIA!!!! IT...IS...MY...HOME!!!

 

[roboyce]

All I've seen in this thread, with the exception of ti89, is a bunch of assumption and speculation. Here's some numbers:

Assumption 1 - California has more applicants per seat in its public med schools than any other state:

-Well, first of all, this assumption obviously does not take into account the states that have no public schools...but let's continue anyway.

-By the numbers, you'll find that excluding the above, you are correct:
CA - 7.5 applicants/seat
OR - 3.6 applicants/seat
CO - 4.6 applicants/seat
NC - 4.1 applicants/seat
GA - 6.3 applicants/seat
NY - 5.2 applicants/seat

Assumption 2 - Because of this, it's harder for Californians to gain acceptance to their state's schools.

-Well, ti89 already pointed out states with lower matriculation rates at their schools, so this is obviously false.

Assumption 3 - Because there's so many Calfornian's applying, it's harder for you to gain acceptance anywhere in the US because you are seen as an ORM

- Well if you look at the AAMC facts, you'll see there are many states in which the percentage of applicants who matriculate anywhere is lower than CA.

CA - 46.2% matriculation
AZ - 34.4% matriculation
CT - 44.8% matriculation
IA - 38.5% matriculation
GA - 30.1% matriculation
TX - 42.8% matriculation
CO - 38.3% matriculation

Assumption 4 - California produces more "competitve applicants"

-Mean MCAT and GPA by State:

CA - 28.8, 3.43
CO - 28.6, 3.51
MA - 29.2, 3.45
WA - 29.3, 3.51
RI - 29.6, 3.47
NH - 29.9, 3.54

Assumption 5 - California has more OOS applicants applying because of its "general prosperity"

- 3 Year Median Income and Median Home Price by state (Source: US Census Bureau, 2003)

MD - $55,900, $180,942
MN - $54,931, $165,294
NH - $53,549, $198.288
VA - $49,974, $153, 398
HI - $49,975, $302,315
CO - $49,617, $200,466
CA - $48,113, $361,597

Assumption 6: California schools accept a greater percentage of OOS applicants than other public schools

-OOS Acceptance Rate and Total Number of OOS Students in 1st Year Class (Source, US News 2003)
UCSF - 3.9%, 26
UCLA -2.9%, 19
UCSD - 2.1%, 10
UCD - 0.5%, 0
UCI - 0.2%, 1
UMich - 7.7%, 93
UNC - 1.9%, 20
UPitt - 9.1%, 93
UVA - 6.1%, 48
UIC - 4.7%, 59

As you can see, some state schools accept more OOS than the entire UC System.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Thanks roboyce. I'm just curious regarding Massachusetts (and I threw out my MSAR in celebration of my acceptance two years ago!). I'm curious how many applicants per seat, given that there is only one state med school there. I would have thought it would be amongst the more competitive states in that regard.

 

[MoosePilot]

By that logic, since there's no shortage of qualified doctors, why do we offer URM status? The reason: to give certain people who deserve a chance, a chance. I believe that California schools should give more of their residents a chance, much like other states. Just because your numbers aren't quite up to par by ucsf or stanford standards does NOT mean that you will not make a great physician. California needs to build more schools to extend more chances to more of its own people. =P

I think this is very true, just due to the feedback from Cali students on SDN. Is there any effort to suggest this to legislators?

 

[pseudoknot]

I think this is very true, just due to the feedback from Cali students on SDN. Is there any effort to suggest this to legislators?

They're already planning to do this. Proposals are forming from several UC campuses for another med school, most notably at Riverside, where they already do the preclinical years in a BS-MD program. If I remember correctly, Riverside would try to keep costs down by not building a new hospital, but simply joining up with existing community hospitals. I haven't slept for a while, so interested parties should verify this through Google.

 

[DrBowtie]

Solid work Roboyce. 👍

 

[Beau Geste]

It's great living in Illinois 🙂

 

[Doctor Bagel]

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005slrmat.htm


California:

4,288 Applicants
812 matriculated in state (18.9%)
2,309 not matriculate (53.8%)

Other states with lower in state matriculation rates:

Connecticut
District of Columbia (not a state but counts as a region obviously)
Maryland
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Arizona
Colorado
Oregon
Utah
Washington


Overall California does just fine if you look at overall matriculation counting of state schools.

I knew it! Oregon sucks just as much as California if not more for premeds! Sure, we've got one semi-state school and a much smaller population, but our semi-state school has no interest in admitting Oregonians.

 

[roboyce]

Thanks roboyce. I'm just curious regarding Massachusetts (and I threw out my MSAR in celebration of my acceptance two years ago!). I'm curious how many applicants per seat, given that there is only one state med school there. I would have thought it would be amongst the more competitive states in that regard.

I got most of that data from AAMC...they have all sorts of facts and figures broken down by state. You can check it out at www.aamc.org. Also, for the most part, I just picked some states at random or that illustrated my point rather than crunching the numbers for all 50 states, so MA may be up there, I just didn't run it through.

 

[SoCuteMD]

To the "ridiculously competitive states" list, I would like to add my own home state, Massachusetts. 867 applicants in 2005 for exactly 100 in-state spots!!!

Thanks roboyce 🙂.

 

[kimmcauliffe]

i think this was supposed to be some sort of public deal since the OP chose to point out that i had been "owned" on some other thread for some comment i made back before xmas...kinda funny i guess...

Haha, I love people why try to show how big thier nads are on these things.

And I disagree with the original post. Why? Because I want to.

 

[Pewl]

Haha, I love people why try to show how big thier nads are on these things.

And I disagree with the original post. Why? Because I want to.

Excellent. The more dissension, the better! =D