California Pre-Medical Post-Baccalaureate Programs 2008

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i love lincecum

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Hi everyone,

I just wanted to create a new thread on California post-bacc programs since the other ones are from last year and I wanted to get to know people who recently applied or will apply in 2008.

Some background about myself
UCD: BS BioSci, BS Anthro, c/o 2007
Age: 22
First-time applicant
Never taken the MCAT
Overall GPA: 3.3
Science GPA: 3.0

UC Post-Baccs I applied to
UCSF: Interview on May 12
UCSD: Interview on April 28 (via telephone)
UCD: Haven't heard anything but not too excited about going back to the alma mater
UCI: Haven't heard anything

Non-UC I applied to
San Jose State: Applied as post-bacc and will hear from admissions in 6-8 weeks; this is my back-up plan

I would really appreciate some advice about interviews or the programs themselves, especially if you're a post-bacc alum. I will definitely post some tips about interviews and stuff as soon as I'm through. Although maybe I'll be secretive about UCSF since I reeeally want to go there. haha jk

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Hi i love lincecum,

Congratulations on obtaining your interviews. I hope they went well. Did you get your acceptance yet?

I am a non-traditional student, and i will be applying to the UC post bac program this coming year. Would you please give me an idea of what the application looks like, including the prompts for the essays (personal statements)? Also, what are the application periods?

Thank you very much
 
This would also be a great place to discuss the other California Post-bac programs including scripps, mills, berkley extension, USC and SFSU
 
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I'm applying to the UC post bacs this year as well! Anyone else?
 
Can someone school me on the following:

What UC post-bac programs are available for those who have NEVER applied to medical school yet? I believe UCI has a PPEP program, but are there more?

Do the UC post-bac programs only accept applicants with less than average gpa + mcat? I am under the impression that someone with a decent gpa + mcat is not a good candidate for the program.
 
I'm glad this thread is here.

Are the UC programs and SFSU only for students who are economically disadvantaged or underrepresented? The website does not make it clear if that's the case or if they're just particularly keen on accepting people in those situations.

Scripps, Mills and, USC are only career changers and not record enhancers--is that correct?

It would be so much easier to do my post-bacc closer to home.
 
I'm glad this thread is here.

Are the UC programs and SFSU only for students who are economically disadvantaged or underrepresented? The website does not make it clear if that's the case or if they're just particularly keen on accepting people in those situations.

Scripps, Mills and, USC are only career changers and not record enhancers--is that correct?

It would be so much easier to do my post-bacc closer to home.

Thats the impression I have, but I haven't been thorough in my research to actually call the UC programs and see what they say. So I would definitely recommend u do that... and post back here after your done 🙂
 
Im planning on applying to various post bac pre med programs in CA in fall 2009. What kind of financial aid options might be open to returned Peace Corps volunteers?
 
Bump. Anybody else applying for the UC postbacs this year? I am!
 
I just got accepted for SJSU's post back starting spring 09. I guess if you live in the south bay like I do its a good option. I tried the UCX classes but the commute killed me.
 
Hey, I need help applying for the post bac program at SJSU. I'm a Biochemistry major at UCSD. Finished up my pre-med requirements. I want to take advanced biology courses at SJSU.

1) As a post-bac, do I apply for graduate degree at CSUMentor.Com?
I have already started working on the online graduate-application, but I want to make sure that I am filling out the correct forms

2) Which majors/degree objective/credential programs am I supposed to sign up for?
I couldn't find a selection for post-bac studies. Should I enroll as undeclared and specify as pre-med post bac studies?

3) Who should I get the references from?
For the post-bac program, are you looking for a specific reference, such as research advisor, community service advisor, pre-med advisor, etc.?

4) In my statement section, should I clarify my intent for the pre-med post bac studies?
5) When is the deadline for Fall 2009 post bac program?


Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
Info for the post-bac prehealth program at SFSU.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~brothman/PHPCP.htm

The professors teaching the upper division classes are great. For example, if a student wants to enroll in the special class they need to petition, and have a GPA of 3.9. I had the pleasure of taking O CHEM II with a professor who now only teaches it for the pre-health cohorts, he was great and I got a B+!

I'm a student at SFSU, and the pre-health certificate is taken very seriously here. There are special classes that are dedicated to pre-health students and taught by the best faculty.
 
1. As a post-bacc, you'll need to fill out the undergrad application and declare a major, probably bio. You won't be admitted if you apply under certain other majors.

2. see above

3. I don't think you need any references. Correct me if I'm wrong.

4. I don't recall seeing a statement section. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

5. I believe the deadline to apply is 11/30/08.
 
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1. As a post-bacc, you'll need to fill out the undergrad application and declare a major, probably bio. You won't be admitted if you apply under certain other majors.

2. see above

3. I don't think you need any references. Correct me if I'm wrong.

4. I don't recall seeing a statement section. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

5. I believe the deadline to apply is 11/30/08.

So no one really knows if the UC's are only for economically disadvantaged people?
 
I applied to SJSU post bac program for fall 2009 and I used an undergraduate application through CSU Mentor. There are no letters of rec needed and no SAT/ACT.
But after that I received an e-mail from SJSU admissions stating that they may not be able to consider my application due to state budget issue.
But you should apply anyways because it doesn't hurt. And I applied as a Bio major.
I'm also considering the post bac program at SFSU. Are you interested in that one or any others?
 
So no one really knows if the UC's are only for economically disadvantaged people?

I did the UC Davis postbacc 07-08. I don't think it is only for economically disadvantaged people but I know the majority of my class was. Doing the postbacc was one of the best things I ever did. Any questions, just let me know. God bless!
 
Yea I definitely have questions about the UC Davis program! What did you like about it? How much did the program cost (did you have to take out loans)? Do you think being in the program made you a better med school applicant and do the people that run the program offer guidance and support? Anyother information would be great as well! Thanks hope to hear back from you.
 
Hi zero82686 If you're still interested, I just got an e-mail from admissions at SJSU that they're reviewing my post-bac app. So, go ahead and apply because it looks like SJSU is still considering apps. Hope this helps!
 
Yea I definitely have questions about the UC Davis program! What did you like about it? How much did the program cost (did you have to take out loans)? Do you think being in the program made you a better med school applicant and do the people that run the program offer guidance and support? Anyother information would be great as well! Thanks hope to hear back from you.

The truth is that I loved everything about it. From my directors, classmates, classes, events we had, all the love, it was just absolutely wonderful. It cost 20,500 and it was all loans. That part did hurt a little bit but I figured it was an investment so I didn't even think about it. I know being in the program made a better applicant. Myself and my other classmates are doing really well in this cycle. Everybody has had at least 2 interviews already, if not more. A couple of people have acceptances already. The classes we took we great. They were challenging but we worked together and got thru them beautifully. Great LOR's from faculty. The program directors do more than offer guidance and support. They go way past that. We were always in their office talking to them about anything. We played golf with them when the program was done. Anything we needed they made it happen for us. We went hiking, did mazes, had bowling outings, etc. It was one of the best things that I ever did and I am truly grateful for being able to participate in the program. The amount of support we had was ridiculously awesome. Anything else, just let me know.
 
The truth is that I loved everything about it. From my directors, classmates, classes, events we had, all the love, it was just absolutely wonderful. It cost 20,500 and it was all loans. That part did hurt a little bit but I figured it was an investment so I didn't even think about it. I know being in the program made a better applicant. Myself and my other classmates are doing really well in this cycle. Everybody has had at least 2 interviews already, if not more. A couple of people have acceptances already. The classes we took we great. They were challenging but we worked together and got thru them beautifully. Great LOR's from faculty. The program directors do more than offer guidance and support. They go way past that. We were always in their office talking to them about anything. We played golf with them when the program was done. Anything we needed they made it happen for us. We went hiking, did mazes, had bowling outings, etc. It was one of the best things that I ever did and I am truly grateful for being able to participate in the program. The amount of support we had was ridiculously awesome. Anything else, just let me know.

Thank you for the awesome information about UCD's post bac program BlackDr2b. It's great to hear that you enjoyed it and good luck this cycle, I'm sure you will garner multiple acceptances 👍
 
Hi all,

I have a BA in English from UCSB and decided this past year to start post-bac work for med school. I'm currently at a community college and doing splendidly with Chem1A and Trig (in preparation for Calculus), so it was a real bummer to read in Kaplan's "Getting Into Medical School" that a lot of schools won't count courses completed at a community college toward your GPA! (I'm not so keen on having my Rocks for Jocks course freshman year at UCSB used as my entire science GPA!)

I immediately contacted UCSC and SJSU and was met with a grim response--because of the governator's budget cuts to the state high education system, CSUs and UCs are NO LONGER ACCEPTING APPLICATIONS FROM STUDENTS WHO ALREADY HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE!

I am seriously miffed--if someone would have told me before I petitioned for graduation that I'd better be damn sure I was done because I'd never be able to come back, things might have gone differently! I have been emailing with a post-bac pre med advisor at San Jose State who says that I can try to add classes as a student with some bottom tier status, but I will be given LAST priority (after all other students who want to add have been able).

This seems like such a huge gamble and not a good plan for the long haul at all. I was holding out hope for the UC Berkeley Extension Program, but am really discouraged at all of the rotten reviews I am reading on here. If we are unable to re-enter the state education system, but community college is deemed inadequate, what options are there for those of us who know we can contribute but don't have the money for mediocre "rich-kid" schools?

Arg.
 
Hi all,

I have a BA in English from UCSB and decided this past year to start post-bac work for med school. I'm currently at a community college and doing splendidly with Chem1A and Trig (in preparation for Calculus), so it was a real bummer to read in Kaplan's "Getting Into Medical School" that a lot of schools won't count courses completed at a community college toward your GPA! (I'm not so keen on having my Rocks for Jocks course freshman year at UCSB used as my entire science GPA!)

I immediately contacted UCSC and SJSU and was met with a grim response--because of the governator's budget cuts to the state high education system, CSUs and UCs are NO LONGER ACCEPTING APPLICATIONS FROM STUDENTS WHO ALREADY HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE!

I am seriously miffed--if someone would have told me before I petitioned for graduation that I'd better be damn sure I was done because I'd never be able to come back, things might have gone differently! I have been emailing with a post-bac pre med advisor at San Jose State who says that I can try to add classes as a student with some bottom tier status, but I will be given LAST priority (after all other students who want to add have been able).

This seems like such a huge gamble and not a good plan for the long haul at all. I was holding out hope for the UC Berkeley Extension Program, but am really discouraged at all of the rotten reviews I am reading on here. If we are unable to re-enter the state education system, but community college is deemed inadequate, what options are there for those of us who know we can contribute but don't have the money for mediocre "rich-kid" schools?

Arg.

Do you have $250,000 sitting around? It doesn't sound like it... So, that means you won't be going to medical school, right?

Wrong.

We all take on debt going through this process. If you have the ability to get into one of the "rich-kid" programs like Scripps that give you a 100% admission rate to med school, you are better off in the long run (IMO, keep this in mind).

Debt happens.
 
Mermaid:

I wouldn't put all of my eggs into the Kaplan basket. I went to UCSD so I know that they don't include your community college courses in your UC GPA. However, I also know in my AACOMAS app this year, my CC classes I took during summer school counted just as much as my UCSD courses. I would contact the med schools your interested to double check, but I highly doubt they could discredit student work at a CC.

Good luck with the budget cuts, we're all screwed here in Cali...

Also, does anyone know HOW badly UC Ext sucks? I'm going to an info session in a week to hear about the program...
 
I immediately contacted UCSC and SJSU and was met with a grim response--because of the governator's budget cuts to the state high education system, CSUs and UCs are NO LONGER ACCEPTING APPLICATIONS FROM STUDENTS WHO ALREADY HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE!

I am seriously miffed--if someone would have told me before I petitioned for graduation that I'd better be damn sure I was done because I'd never be able to come back, things might have gone differently! I have been emailing with a post-bac pre med advisor at San Jose State who says that I can try to add classes as a student with some bottom tier status, but I will be given LAST priority (after all other students who want to add have been able).

This seems like such a huge gamble and not a good plan for the long haul at all. I was holding out hope for the UC Berkeley Extension Program, but am really discouraged at all of the rotten reviews I am reading on here. If we are unable to re-enter the state education system, but community college is deemed inadequate, what options are there for those of us who know we can contribute but don't have the money for mediocre "rich-kid" schools?

Arg.

Have you tried applying to CSU East Bay as a postbacc? CSU Monterey Bay may be another option as well. SJSU is recommending postbacc apps to go to CSUEB.

Who knows what might happen this time around with a $20+ billion state deficit and a truly lousy recession. But right now, you still have a few options left.
 
Oooh, thank you BouncingBoy for the reminder! I did see that suggestion when my online application was refused but had forgotten about it in my storm of cynicism and rage. Go figure.

So that would lead us to the next most obvious question...

Does anyone have any experience with Post Bac work at CSU East Bay or CSU Monterey? Any thoughts (aside from the obvious) as to how lesser known CSUs might look on a med school application?
 
Oooh, thank you BouncingBoy for the reminder! I did see that suggestion when my online application was refused but had forgotten about it in my storm of cynicism and rage. Go figure.

So that would lead us to the next most obvious question...

Does anyone have any experience with Post Bac work at CSU East Bay or CSU Monterey? Any thoughts (aside from the obvious) as to how lesser known CSUs might look on a med school application?

I too was hoping to do sjsu for next fall and found out last minute they werent accepting any more apps. I am graduating this year and hope to either do sfsu, csueb, or a UC which I will apply to early next year. if you're staying in the bay area, sfsu is really good, a bunch of friends that i know from college go there. second choice would be csueb. stupid budget cuts.
 
How much support does a place like SFSU pre-med provide? Are you largely on your own to seek everything out?

They suggest a full time schedule, but also mention that it allows for part time work. How does this work for people? Can/do they hook you up with potential jobs? I have research assistant experience (on my 3rd RAship) and if I can work part time in a gainful area while taking classes, I'd love to.

How do SFSU students finance themselves? 2 years means that large loans for the entire time can't work for me (taken out loans for 5 years of undergrad). I am looking at the expensive 1 year programs, and I can handle that, but if the debt exceeds this, it doesn't make sense.


I have lived in the bay area for the past 4 years, and now on the other side of the bay, I'd love to actually be in the city if the program gets me where I want to go.


Edit: I looked through the program a little, and it seems like SFSU *formal* post-bacc would be ok with me, even though its a 2 year program (ideally looking at 1 year).

How do people finance their living? with total tuition rounding out near $32k for the 2 years, and them recommending not working, how do people get the money to live in the city (or live at all)?
 
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How do people finance their living? with total tuition rounding out near $32k for the 2 years, and them recommending not working, how do people get the money to live in the city (or live at all)?

I am a certified personal trainer, and strangely enough, it's the best job a student could ask for. You are paid a very competitive hourly rate--the struggle is getting enough hours (when you are trying to work full time), which often works out with the large homework loads.

Clients typically want to work out before and after work, so the middle of the day is free for you to take normal classes! Very convenient...

To be certified as a Personal Trainer you just have to sit a certification test (1 day) that is NOT hard to pass, especially if you have any background in Kinesiology, Physiology or Anatomy. You can pass by simply buying the company's textbook and reading through it. Money's not great, but it sure beats doubling up on loans!
 
I am a certified personal trainer, and strangely enough, it's the best job a student could ask for. You are paid a very competitive hourly rate--the struggle is getting enough hours (when you are trying to work full time), which often works out with the large homework loads.

Clients typically want to work out before and after work, so the middle of the day is free for you to take normal classes! Very convenient...

To be certified as a Personal Trainer you just have to sit a certification test (1 day) that is NOT hard to pass, especially if you have any background in Kinesiology, Physiology or Anatomy. You can pass by simply buying the company's textbook and reading through it. Money's not great, but it sure beats doubling up on loans!

I've thought about doing that in the past, was it an ACE certification? What gym, if you don't mind me asking, did you get a job at with an ACE? I've heard its very competitive (probably more at the big chain gyms) and difficult to get enough clients. I played lacrosse in college, made league honors (league is Oregon, California, Nevada, and Arizona), played in a national championship game, and still go to the gym at least 3-5 times a week. I don't have the kines or physio background 🙁

I have a fair amount of research assistant experience, and more abilities once I get into science classes (social science is where I've done the work so far), so I was hoping to use that. I'm working full time now as an RA and wanted to see if there are part time RA positions at the school to supplement loans.
 
I've thought about doing that in the past, was it an ACE certification? What gym, if you don't mind me asking, did you get a job at with an ACE? I've heard its very competitive (probably more at the big chain gyms) and difficult to get enough clients. I played lacrosse in college, made league honors (league is Oregon, California, Nevada, and Arizona), played in a national championship game, and still go to the gym at least 3-5 times a week. I don't have the kines or physio background 🙁

My certification WAS with ACE, but only because it's the cheapest. NASM and ACSM have comparable certifications that are much more highly regarded. The secret, my friend, is to get on the ins at a small, PRIVATE gym. Club One, 24 Hour Fitness, etc. are not good choices. Privately owned gyms tend to have more upscale clientele and less competitive staff. With your background in sports, you'd have no problem getting hired once certified.

However, don't let me push it on you! RA sounds like a great plan too--just sharing what has worked for me. =)
 
Wow, this thread has been pretty depressing. I'll be moving out to the San Francisco area in the late spring or summer of '09 and want to hit up a university for an intense year of pre-health requirements (finished undergrad '07 in engineering).

But from the sounds of things, there aren't any slots at any decent schools? Is this due to "in-state" tuition or something?
My initial thoughts were to head to Berkeley or UCSF, but what's this about Berkeley being pretty crap?

I was feeling good about the plan, but now it seems to be cracking a bit.

Keep the info coming!
 
Wow, this thread has been pretty depressing. I'll be moving out to the San Francisco area in the late spring or summer of '09 and want to hit up a university for an intense year of pre-health requirements (finished undergrad '07 in engineering).

But from the sounds of things, there aren't any slots at any decent schools? Is this due to "in-state" tuition or something?
My initial thoughts were to head to Berkeley or UCSF, but what's this about Berkeley being pretty crap?

I was feeling good about the plan, but now it seems to be cracking a bit.

Keep the info coming!

no Berkeley of course isn't crap but the extension post-bac program is. I myself will be done this Spring with my undergrad BA and am worried about the stupid budget cuts that seem to be closing up spots everywhere (sjsu, sfsu, etc)
 
Just thought I'd let you all know how my postbacc is going at SJSU... I don't think the CSU's (with the exception of East Bay, I heard) are accepting postbacc students which really sucks. I applied as a second-bacc student in Feb before all the budget cuts. I just finished 5 science classes with a 4.0 so I'm extremely happy (and tired) right now. The professors and students at SJSU are amazing. Everyone has been so helpful. I really don't think I could've done as well without their support. I have a few postbac friends at SJSU who are enrolled via Open University so I'd advise those of you who want to take classes to go that route since they're not accepting postbacc applications. I think the website is something like http://ou.sjsu.edu. You don't have registration priority and it could be a b**** to get into good classes/labs but it'll be worth it. Also, there are a TON of interesting science classes to take (more during the Fall than in the Spring though) so that means a lot of chances for you to bump up your GPA. Here's a good link to calculate your GPA. http://www.image-ination.com/test_maker/gpa.html#q1 It's a great and easy way to see where you stand now and what you have to do to raise your GPA. It saved me a lot of scratch paper. =] Anyway, PM if you have any ?s.
 
Hi i love lincecum,

Congratulations on obtaining your interviews. I hope they went well. Did you get your acceptance yet?

I am a non-traditional student, and i will be applying to the UC post bac program this coming year. Would you please give me an idea of what the application looks like, including the prompts for the essays (personal statements)? Also, what are the application periods?

Thank you very much

Sorry it took a while but here's the website for the UC postbacc application: https://meded-postbac.ucsd.edu/ I think it'll be open in the beginning of January so if you're planning to apply, get your LOR's ready including 2 academic ones and 1 from community service. There are three essays: 1) Why do you want to go to medical school 2) Why do you want to do a postbacc 3) Optional: Research experience. Those are the 3 major essays at the end of the application; there's also a shorter hardship essay in the middle. Applications are due 4/10/09 so make sure you get everything (transcripts/LOR's) in early. Some programs like UCLA and UCLA/Drew only accept reapplicants. Each program takes about 10 students or so. They interview in April/May, results come out in June or earlier (UCSD has rolling admissions) and you start the summer MCAT prep in July. The UC postbacc is awesome but I didn't get in so I had to do a DIY postbacc so make sure you guys have backup plans. =]
 
Thank you everyone for the info's on the UC's postbac's. The support and training from the programs sound terrific, but what are its success rates for CA/UC medical schools?

I need to stay in CA due to family and financial reasons. So any information on the programs' success rates to UC's would be greatly appreciated, since I have a low (2.93) uGPA from UCI with no science prereq's. However, I am enrolled at SFSU's informal postbac program to raise my uGPA and take all of the lower-division science courses...which means I'm looking to apply next January 2010.

Any help and advice would be welcome! Thanks in advance!!!
 
Due to budget cuts, SJSU is accepting applications only for Engineering second bachelors. For those of us who wish to enhance our undergrad GPA, I suggest that you apply to SJSU through the engineering department anyway and then change majors once you are accepted. The process is relatively painless and everyone has been helpful so far. I have just been accepted for spring 09 and am navigating through the state school bureaucracy. Anyone else here attending SJSU as a 2nd bachelor for med school?

Best!
WH
 
Due to budget cuts, SJSU is accepting applications only for Engineering second bachelors. For those of us who wish to enhance our undergrad GPA, I suggest that you apply to SJSU through the engineering department anyway and then change majors once you are accepted. The process is relatively painless and everyone has been helpful so far. I have just been accepted for spring 09 and am navigating through the state school bureaucracy. Anyone else here attending SJSU as a 2nd bachelor for med school?

Best!
WH

Thanks for the helpful info! Was this loophole way of applying suggested to you by someone at SJSU? I've applied but got the referral to CSUEB due to budget cuts email. If there's another way in, I'd like to find out what the specifics are.

Thanks!
 
Hi all,

I have a BA in English from UCSB and decided this past year to start post-bac work for med school. I'm currently at a community college and doing splendidly with Chem1A and Trig (in preparation for Calculus), so it was a real bummer to read in Kaplan's "Getting Into Medical School" that a lot of schools won't count courses completed at a community college toward your GPA! (I'm not so keen on having my Rocks for Jocks course freshman year at UCSB used as my entire science GPA!)

I immediately contacted UCSC and SJSU and was met with a grim response--because of the governator's budget cuts to the state high education system, CSUs and UCs are NO LONGER ACCEPTING APPLICATIONS FROM STUDENTS WHO ALREADY HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE!
Arg.

Unfortunately in your case this is correct. CC coursework will only be accepted if completed within the bachelor's degree. I'm still not sure why as technically the coursework is equivalent to the university course, and acceptable if you took the course as an undergrad (or CC transfer student).

Check smaller CSU campuses for post-bacc programs and/or second BA/BS degrees. Sucks, but the campuses need to give priority to those that don't have a degree (first time BA candidates). Updates should be available on CSU Mentor.

Good luck!
 
Hi all,

I have a BA in English from UCSB and decided this past year to start post-bac work for med school. I'm currently at a community college and doing splendidly with Chem1A and Trig (in preparation for Calculus), so it was a real bummer to read in Kaplan's "Getting Into Medical School" that a lot of schools won't count courses completed at a community college toward your GPA! (I'm not so keen on having my Rocks for Jocks course freshman year at UCSB used as my entire science GPA!)

I'm in a similar situation - the local UC and cal state are not accepting 2nd bachelor's, and I'm stuck with either taking a few upper div courses at a time through Extension or going through the application process for a post-bacc. I'm also very limited in terms of location - I can't stray out of so cal, especially that I finally found a productive research opportunity.

Anyways, just want to clear things up - doesn't all college coursework count towards your GPA? Even if a med school looks upon community college coursework unfavorably, AMCAS is still going to factor in those grades to your GPA, right?

Some of the UCs (UCI, UCD, UCLA) don't like the idea of taking pre-reqs at a community college; however, they did say that if I took enough upper div bio (which automatically means at a 4-year), then that would make me competitive with other pre-meds who did take their pre-reqs at a 4-year.

Perhaps there are some med schools that flat-out reject community college coursework, but I don't know which ones.
 
Hi folks,

Do you know what kind of classes are being offered through the post-bacc ? Is it just random upper division science classes or is there a specific ones the advisor tells you to take.

It seems rather expensive spending $24,000 on upper division science classes when a year undergraduate tuition is $9000 and a master program cost $12,500.

Can someone who was in the post bachelor program list some of the classes they took ? It would be greatly appreciated.
 
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