california program, low comlex

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Happy Kitten

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Is it realistic to match a California residency with a low 400 comlex 1? Have a few research experiences, couple posters, volunteer work, couple honors in 3rd year so far.
 
I have no idea what the comlex is relative to the usmle. 1 option is to try take the usmle.

Also go for less competitive programs -- loma linda, usc, etc.

Many of them are perfectly good programs.
 
Might be a bit tough if you only apply using COMLEX since a lot of ACGME programs don't really know what to make of it, but as long as your 3rd year grades are OK and you have decent letters you should have a shot at some of the lesser competitive Cali programs. All is not lost. UCLA-NPI/UCI/UCSD/Stanford will almost certainly be out of reach, but the rest should be fair game, especially if you do an audition and they like you!
 
UCLA-NPI is out of the question, and most likely UCSD and Stanford and probably UCLA Harbor. Look at Loma Linda, USC, San Mateo, and Kern.

As for UCI, I have to laugh. I will never work with anyone from any UCI residency program. UCI is not in the same league, especially with its recent history of scandals: In 1995, a team of fertility doctors were accused of transplanting eggs without patients' consent, conducting research without informed consent, and prescribing unapproved drugs. Two fled the country, and one was convicted of fraud. In 1997, a UCI research laboratory was found to have violated federal and university regulations by charging Medicare for experimental drugs. The laboratory closed and its director resigned. In 1998, a researcher was charged with using blood samples with patients' consent. In 1999, the director of the medical school's Willed Body Program was found to have sold parts of cadavers, misappropriated money, conducted unauthorized autopsies, and used inappropriate procedures on laboratory animals. He was fired, and the program was taken over by the UC Office of the President. In 2004, a cancer researcher was accused of mis-spending funds. The matter is still under investigation. From 2004 to 2005, UCI was offered 122 livers but only 12 transplants were performed. As many as 30 patients died while waiting for a liver transplant. Surgeries couldn't be performed because UCI did not have an on-site surgical team. As a result, the transplant program was shut down for a while. Sorry folks, I just report the news.
 
Leo Aquarius said:
UCLA-NPI is out of the question, and most likely UCSD and Stanford and probably UCLA Harbor. Look at Loma Linda, USC, San Mateo, and Kern.

As for UCI, I have to laugh. I will never work with anyone from any UCI residency program. UCI is not in the same league, especially with its recent history of scandals: In 1995, a team of fertility doctors were accused of transplanting eggs without patients’ consent, conducting research without informed consent, and prescribing unapproved drugs. Two fled the country, and one was convicted of fraud. In 1997, a UCI research laboratory was found to have violated federal and university regulations by charging Medicare for experimental drugs. The laboratory closed and its director resigned. In 1998, a researcher was charged with using blood samples with patients’ consent. In 1999, the director of the medical school’s Willed Body Program was found to have sold parts of cadavers, misappropriated money, conducted unauthorized autopsies, and used inappropriate procedures on laboratory animals. He was fired, and the program was taken over by the UC Office of the President. In 2004, a cancer researcher was accused of mis-spending funds. The matter is still under investigation. From 2004 to 2005, UCI was offered 122 livers but only 12 transplants were performed. As many as 30 patients died while waiting for a liver transplant. Surgeries couldn't be performed because UCI did not have an on-site surgical team. As a result, the transplant program was shut down for a while. Sorry folks, I just report the news.
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A little like deciding whether or not to attend Penn State for engineering based on the football program's handling of Jerry Sandusky, if you ask me... I mean, it's not wholly irrelevant, but judging all programs at a large institution on the basis of high profile failings of one program a half-dozen years ago is basically, well, stupid.

(Disclaimer: I have no connection to any California program, nor any of their direct rivals.)
 
nitemagi said:
I have no idea what the comlex is relative to the usmle. 1 option is to try take the usmle.
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My score is around 1 std below mean. I didn't manage my time well on the exam. I considered taking the usmle, but as I started to review for boards, I realized there was so much material on the usmle that was not taught in our curriculum. Maybe I will take usmle step 2. Thanks for your advice.
 
Leo Aquarius said:
As for UCI, I have to laugh. I will never work with anyone from any UCI residency program.
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Seriously. 🙄 You're an intern, dude, and you're acting like you're a big enough expert to determine who you will and never work with based on where they trained when you joined this profession like 2 months ago. I work with someone who trained at UCI right now, and she's perfectly wonderful and great at what she does.
 
Happy Kitten said:
Is it realistic to match a California residency with a low 400 comlex 1? Have a few research experiences, couple posters, volunteer work, couple honors in 3rd year so far.
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Yep, Loma Linda and those programs like less desirable parts of California like Kern. I think there's another one, too, right. One's UCLA-something, and one's UCSF-something. Talk on the street is that they're good programs but much less competitive because of location. UCLA-SFV has had lots of DOs in the past, so I'd look there as well. I doubt it as much of a big deal as you think it is. Having a below the mean USMLE Step 1 score certainly wouldn't be much of an impediment for matching almost anywhere.
 
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Doctor Bagel said:
Yep, Loma Linda and those programs like less desirable parts of California like Kern. I think there's another one, too, right. Talk on the street is that they're good programs but much less competitive because of location. UCLA-SFV has had lots of DOs in the past, so I'd look there as well. I doubt it as much of a big deal as you think it is. Having a below the mean USMLE Step 1 score certainly wouldn't be much of an impediment for matching almost anywhere.
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Agreed mostly. This varies a little. Being a DO and having a low score will be a limit at big names, as others have listed above, which just probably means you won't be offered an interview there (UCLA, UCSD, UCSF, Stanford). But there's never any harm in applying broadly (aside from cost). I trained at a good program, and went to what I consider a damn good medical school. What I reiterate to candidates again and again (because medical students still think in the limited "Ivy" mentality) is that going to a top program doesn't mean you'll be a great doctor. Going to a crappy program doesn't mean you'll be a crappy doctor. We are adult learners, and you distinguish yourself by seeing outside of the structured curriculum and training in what you need and what is missing, i.e. picking/choosing/chewing/digesting your food, rather than just swallowing what you're taught whole. You will not be done training at the end of residency. People who stop learning at that point get outdated pretty quick, and define much of the crappy standard we see out in the world. See training for what it is- part of the path but not the path itself. It's a means to an end (for you might mean getting to california).
 
Happy Kitten said:
Is it realistic to match a California residency with a low 400 comlex 1? Have a few research experiences, couple posters, volunteer work, couple honors in 3rd year so far.
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You honestly won't know unless you try. I agree with everything that has been thrown out here so far.

Start studying for Step 2 now. Make sure that you do as well as you can. Aim for >550 or >600 if you can. I'm a DO, took COMLEX only, didn't do great on step 1 either, but "rocked" step 2 and got all the interviews in the world...although I didn't apply to Cali programs so I will defer to people who know what they're talking about with regards to that.

I will say that I'd recommend you broaden your horizons a bit unless there is a VERY pressing reason to stay in Cali. As a DO with a low score, you can likely get into a MUCH better program in a less desirable location than you'll get in Cali. I mean, it's all a balance of what you want, but there are some great programs out there in places that don't totally suck to live in.

If you're willing to look elsewhere, I'd give a good long look at U New Mexico, which by all accounts is a great program and isn't terribly far from Cali (easy flight back to visit family, if that's the reason), a cool city, and great training. Also, much less expensive, so you'd be able to afford a few flights. Unless you absolutely loathe the cold, I'd also look at U Iowa, Indiana U, and some east coast programs (UVA, USF in Tampa, etc).

I'm sure we're seconds away from a Vistaril post saying that psych is so easy to match into that you could get into pretty much any program you want with your scores (except "top" ones, because they don't take DO's, in his opinion...sigh), but don't listen to him if that happens. Although psych is relatively easy match, a low step 1 score should worry you slightly. I *think* you'll be fine, but you should really, REALLY try to do very well on Step 2 and take it earlier (try to take it in June, so your scores are back early).

As far as Step 2 studying: I found the Kaplan Step 2 videos VERY VERY VERY useful. Conrad Fisher does most of the lectures and he literally saved my life there. Also, memorize every word in that little Step 2 secrets book. http://www.amazon.com/USMLE-Step-2-Secrets-3e/dp/0323057136. Especially the "top 100" in the beginning. Reading that book the night before and morning of Step 2 gave me at least 10 extra questions. Lots of good stuff in there. Also, the Green OMM book goes without saying. Every. Word. Seriously. Including all the tests and their answers.

Good luck!
 
digitlnoize said:
I'm sure we're seconds away from a Vistaril post saying that psych is so easy to match into that you could get into pretty much any program you want with your scores !
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lmfao...I don't know what to say. Psych is very easy to match into. Do you want me to start lying and saying it is a tough match? Would that make you guys feel better?

regarding the OP in this case, being a DO will hurt him some with some of the cali programs. Since he doesn't appear to be a great DO candidate(at least in terms of scores), UCSF and stanford is out and the more competitive of the UCLA programs would likely be out as well. Wouldnt say no shot at UCSD, but definately uphill battle there. All the other programs he probably has a reasonable shot at.
 
digitlnoize said:
You honestly won't know unless you try. I agree with everything that has been thrown out here so far.

Start studying for Step 2 now. Make sure that you do as well as you can. Aim for >550 or >600 if you can. I'm a DO, took COMLEX only, didn't do great on step 1 either, but "rocked" step 2 and got all the interviews in the world...although I didn't apply to Cali programs so I will defer to people who know what they're talking about with regards to that.

I will say that I'd recommend you broaden your horizons a bit unless there is a VERY pressing reason to stay in Cali. As a DO with a low score, you can likely get into a MUCH better program in a less desirable location than you'll get in Cali. I mean, it's all a balance of what you want, but there are some great programs out there in places that don't totally suck to live in.

If you're willing to look elsewhere, I'd give a good long look at U New Mexico, which by all accounts is a great program and isn't terribly far from Cali (easy flight back to visit family, if that's the reason), a cool city, and great training. Also, much less expensive, so you'd be able to afford a few flights. Unless you absolutely loathe the cold, I'd also look at U Iowa, Indiana U, and some east coast programs (UVA, USF in Tampa, etc).

I'm sure we're seconds away from a Vistaril post saying that psych is so easy to match into that you could get into pretty much any program you want with your scores (except "top" ones, because they don't take DO's, in his opinion...sigh), but don't listen to him if that happens. Although psych is relatively easy match, a low step 1 score should worry you slightly. I *think* you'll be fine, but you should really, REALLY try to do very well on Step 2 and take it earlier (try to take it in June, so your scores are back early).

As far as Step 2 studying: I found the Kaplan Step 2 videos VERY VERY VERY useful. Conrad Fisher does most of the lectures and he literally saved my life there. Also, memorize every word in that little Step 2 secrets book. http://www.amazon.com/USMLE-Step-2-Secrets-3e/dp/0323057136. Especially the "top 100" in the beginning. Reading that book the night before and morning of Step 2 gave me at least 10 extra questions. Lots of good stuff in there. Also, the Green OMM book goes without saying. Every. Word. Seriously. Including all the tests and their answers.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

I have step up to step 2. Any thoughts about that?
 
billypilgrim37 said:
http://www.im.org/Publications/Insight/Archives/2008/Documents/COMLEXfigure1.pdf

Definite correlation with a fair amount of individual-level variance. Generally, the mean score for the Comlex looks like about a 195 on USMLE, but could range from about 185 to 210.
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Where did you find the stats for that? The only one i've ever seen is the Kirksville study, which is a joke considering it only basically took 200 medical students from their own program and compared their USMLE scores. That analysis shows that a student that scores a 700 should get a 235 on USMLE....my friends scoring above 650 are scoring above 240 at least on USMLE, so that doesn't make sense (but I will agree that my sample size is even smaller). I just would like to see a study with a much bigger sample size.

Thanks for the info!
 
Lewist02 said:
Where did you find the stats for that? The only one i've ever seen is the Kirksville study, which is a joke considering it only basically took 200 medical students from their own program and compared their USMLE scores. That analysis shows that a student that scores a 700 should get a 235 on USMLE....my friends scoring above 650 are scoring above 240 at least on USMLE, so that doesn't make sense (but I will agree that my sample size is even smaller). I just would like to see a study with a much bigger sample size.

Thanks for the info!
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http://www.im.org/Publications/Insight/Archives/2008/Volume6Issue4/Pages/COMLEX64.aspx

I've heard many DO students argue that an average COMLEX is the same as an average USMLE, whereas this suggests an average COMLEX correlates with a score about a standard deviation below the average USMLE score.
 
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Lewist02 said:
Where did you find the stats for that? The only one i've ever seen is the Kirksville study, which is a joke considering it only basically took 200 medical students from their own program and compared their USMLE scores. That analysis shows that a student that scores a 700 should get a 235 on USMLE....my friends scoring above 650 are scoring above 240 at least on USMLE, so that doesn't make sense (but I will agree that my sample size is even smaller). I just would like to see a study with a much bigger sample size.

Thanks for the info!
Click to expand...

either way, I wouldnt worry about it....different tests. DO students prepare for the Comlex as their primary test. Of course the ones who take the usmle arent going to do as well as would be expected.....

if you took a bunch of med students with say an average usmle score of 230, and then one week after that gave them the comlex, I bet their scores would trend out a lot crappier than would be expected based on the reverse numbers....
 
vistaril said:
either way, I wouldnt worry about it....different tests. DO students prepare for the Comlex as their primary test. Of course the ones who take the usmle arent going to do as well as would be expected.....

if you took a bunch of med students with say an average usmle score of 230, and then one week after that gave them the comlex, I bet their scores would trend out a lot crappier than would be expected based on the reverse numbers....
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A LOT crappier, since there's a good amount of OMM on the COMLEX and MD students don't learn any. That's an automatic 50 or so questions wrong right there.

Not all DO students prepare for COMLEX as their primary test. Most of my friends, myself included, prepared for USMLE only, then did a quick OMM review right before COMLEX. But, other than the OMM, there's very little difference in terms of what or how I study. COMLEX has much more poorly worded questions, but otherwise they are pretty similar.
 
billypilgrim37 said:
http://www.im.org/Publications/Insight/Archives/2008/Volume6Issue4/Pages/COMLEX64.aspx

I've heard many DO students argue that an average COMLEX is the same as an average USMLE, whereas this suggests an average COMLEX correlates with a score about a standard deviation below the average USMLE score.
Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding what they're saying. You can't compare the two exams because COMLEX includes a component not on the USMLE and the USMLE stresses a component not stressed on the COMLEX or in DO education -- biochemistry. No one can predict a USMLE score based on a COMLEX score. Hell, one can't predict a USMLE score on the second try based on a USMLE score on the first try. Too many variables.
 
Mass Effect said:
I think you're misunderstanding what they're saying. You can't compare the two exams because COMLEX includes a component not on the USMLE and the USMLE stresses a component not stressed on the COMLEX or in DO education -- biochemistry.
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Hmm. Not really true. I learned quite a lot of biochemistry, and it was definitely on COMLEX.

But, the COMLEX does have OMM, which the USMLE does not. It also tends to have more FM and OB related topics, but overall VERY similar exams. If there is a difference, it's in the length and quality of the questions.
 
digitlnoize said:
Hmm. Not really true. I learned quite a lot of biochemistry, and it was definitely on COMLEX.
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Perhaps it varies by school curriculum/exam, but I had about 5 biochem questions total on my COMLEX.

But, the COMLEX does have OMM, which the USMLE does not. It also tends to have more FM and OB related topics, but overall VERY similar exams. If there is a difference, it's in the length and quality of the questions.
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Not sure when you took it, but this year, there was also a ton of anatomy. I would say the highest yield topics this year were micro, anatomy, and neuro, with pharm and repro just behind those.
 
Hey guys I am sorry for hijacking this thread temporarily, but I dont think my question warrants a new thread. What kind of a Step 1 score (at minimum) would be considered competitive for UCLA-NPI? Also, for "non-competitive" Psych residences in SoCal, what score is considered competitive? When I take step 1 this summer, I will obviously aim to score the highest possible, but its always good to know these things (I wish this data was more available)
 
QuesoAndFromage said:
Hey guys I am sorry for hijacking this thread temporarily, but I dont think my question warrants a new thread. What kind of a Step 1 score (at minimum) would be considered competitive for UCLA-NPI? Also, for "non-competitive" Psych residences in SoCal, what score is considered competitive? When I take step 1 this summer, I will obviously aim to score the highest possible, but its always good to know these things (I wish this data was more available)
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Nobody knows really, except the program directors. For the rest of us it's educated conjecture, but this is what I can share...

I interviewed at NPI and had a high Step 1 score. That probably doesn't help you much, but remember NPI interviews the top candidates in the country. Everyone on my interview day was from a brand name med school. Another way to get training in LA and connect with NPI clinics is through the UCLA Harbor program which, while they do have their share of brand name students, focuses on person more than scores (but they only take 7 students each year vs 15 or so at NPI). To interview at UCSD and UCLA-SFV you probably could get away with 220s or 210s, but again this is just conjecture. It's what I gathered from talking to lots of students on the interview trail last year. For USC, UCI, and Kern, lower threshold I heard. Again, just from what I gathered. Others on this forum will tell you differently.

Let me say that I was surprised to find how different each program really is. Try to figure out what you want for training. NPI is excellent, but definitely not for everyone.
 
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If I eventually want to work and settle down in California, is there any downside to matching to an out of state residency program?
 
Happy Kitten said:
If I eventually want to work and settle down in California, is there any downside to matching to an out of state residency program?
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If you're looking to have a private practice, it's a lot harder without local contacts, and thus will take a lot longer. Depending on where you want to live in the state, different regions are easier to break into. San Diego, for example, is more accessible in finding salaried jobs than LA has been when I first started looking around.
 
Similar posiiton to OP, sub 500 Level 1, would UCLA-SFV be out of reach? Working on the level 2. USMLE was just not in the cards for me. (didn't take it and passed level 1 on first attempt)
 
I would say go and take the USMLE and see how you do. Most program directors seem to put more emphasis on that score just because its been around longer and they know exactly what the numbers mean. Even DO programs have the occasional MD (like mine) as a director and they like to see that. No one mentioned my program, Arrowhead Regoinal Medical Center, but that is understandable since it is a new program with only 2 slots a year and only had 2 graduating classes so far.
I have to wonder why CA programs? I was kind of in your situation, medicore COMLEX and barely passing USMLE but I still got into a CA program. Honestly I wanted to stay on the east coast but I was willing to go anywhere to be a psychiatrist, even if I had to move my whole family to the other side of the country. How open minded are you to going to some program in the middle of nowhere? Average candidates like us usually can't be picky IMO.
Sorry if that sounds blunt but the truth is, most of us are average (just based on statistics) and confiding yourself to just one state seems unrealistic.
 
gibits said:
I would say go and take the USMLE and see how you do. Most program directors seem to put more emphasis on that score just because its been around longer and they know exactly what the numbers mean. Even DO programs have the occasional MD (like mine) as a director and they like to see that. No one mentioned my program, Arrowhead Regoinal Medical Center, but that is understandable since it is a new program with only 2 slots a year and only had 2 graduating classes so far.
I have to wonder why CA programs? I was kind of in your situation, medicore COMLEX and barely passing USMLE but I still got into a CA program. Honestly I wanted to stay on the east coast but I was willing to go anywhere to be a psychiatrist, even if I had to move my whole family to the other side of the country. How open minded are you to going to some program in the middle of nowhere? Average candidates like us usually can't be picky IMO.
Sorry if that sounds blunt but the truth is, most of us are average (just based on statistics) and confiding yourself to just one state seems unrealistic.
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It's a lot easier said than done. The basic sciences (immune, biochem biostats and embryology have really felt like they have atrophied big time). I wish I could even manage to pass the darn USMLE Step 1 at this point. However, I would need at least 1 month of completely uninterrupted studying time just for step 1 to review pathoma etc. However, I doubt I would even be able to break a 200 on the test with just that time. I keep on kicking myself on a regular basis for not having the guts to talk to my clinical rotation coordinator or dean and telling them that I needed more time to study last year. Perhaps I could have gotten a respectable COMLEX &/or a USMLE score. However, what's done is done.

I am a resident of Southern California and it would be great to be near my parents (father is suffering from severe depression from my absence). however, yes, you are right, I need to focus on the quality of the program and can't be too picky. It just really hurts sometimes though, I feel like I didn't open up my voice to my administration and tell them about how I was struggling with boards. I passed my COMSAE, I was in the bottom 10% of my class but I never failed a class nor did I fail Level 1 on my first attempt. I honestly don't feel like my true working medical knowledge is that inadequate compared to my peers its just the way I over think and analyze things on these standardized exams.

It just sucks to be dropping almost $60K a year on my education, being a US grad to just have the lack of USMLE step 1 (a basic science exam for crying out loud) hold me back. My dad is a physician as well and he was able to get into an IM residency in 1990 without much work (auditions etc.). Psychiatry is generally considered a not so competitive field in general (not trying to make a point) so I was hoping I wouldn't have too much trouble getting some geographic preference. however, that's just my assessment and I may not be realistic in my thought process. I don't think I'll ever pursue a fellowship later on so the whole DO vs MD residency thing is not a huge concern.

how are the didactics at arrowhead?
 
With an average complex score, landing a California spot will be rather difficult. But look, nobody knows for sure. Apply to the less competitive places like Loma Linda, Kern, even USC. The UCLA programs will be tough. NPI will be impossible. Harbor didn't accept a DO this year or last year. SFV might be possible.

Good luck!
 
With the UCLA programs think of them this way:

NPI wants academically superior residents
Harbor wants culturally superior residents that are academically strong
SFV wants well-rounded residents

Hope that helps.
 
Leo Aquarius said:
With an average complex score, landing a California spot will be rather difficult. But look, nobody knows for sure. Apply to the less competitive places like Loma Linda, Kern, even USC. The UCLA programs will be tough. NPI will be impossible. Harbor didn't accept a DO this year or last year. SFV might be possible.

Good luck!
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Couple friends/roommates with below average COMLEX got interviews from USC, UCSF Fresno, Loma Linda, Harbor, Visalia, and Fontana. I would say these are probably the least competitive.
 
as90 said:
It's a lot easier said than done. The basic sciences (immune, biochem biostats and embryology have really felt like they have atrophied big time). I wish I could even manage to pass the darn USMLE Step 1 at this point. However, I would need at least 1 month of completely uninterrupted studying time just for step 1 to review pathoma etc. However, I doubt I would even be able to break a 200 on the test with just that time. I keep on kicking myself on a regular basis for not having the guts to talk to my clinical rotation coordinator or dean and telling them that I needed more time to study last year. Perhaps I could have gotten a respectable COMLEX &/or a USMLE score. However, what's done is done.

I am a resident of Southern California and it would be great to be near my parents (father is suffering from severe depression from my absence). however, yes, you are right, I need to focus on the quality of the program and can't be too picky. It just really hurts sometimes though, I feel like I didn't open up my voice to my administration and tell them about how I was struggling with boards. I passed my COMSAE, I was in the bottom 10% of my class but I never failed a class nor did I fail Level 1 on my first attempt. I honestly don't feel like my true working medical knowledge is that inadequate compared to my peers its just the way I over think and analyze things on these standardized exams.

It just sucks to be dropping almost $60K a year on my education, being a US grad to just have the lack of USMLE step 1 (a basic science exam for crying out loud) hold me back. My dad is a physician as well and he was able to get into an IM residency in 1990 without much work (auditions etc.). Psychiatry is generally considered a not so competitive field in general (not trying to make a point) so I was hoping I wouldn't have too much trouble getting some geographic preference. however, that's just my assessment and I may not be realistic in my thought process. I don't think I'll ever pursue a fellowship later on so the whole DO vs MD residency thing is not a huge concern.

how are the didactics at arrowhead?
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I'm confused, why is USMLE step 2 not something you feel you can take? I would think that would help you alot

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
I'm confused, why is USMLE step 2 not something you feel you can take? I would think that would help you alot

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD
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I can definitely take the Step 2 exam, especially given the fact that each of our shelf exams has been NBME. However, I was talking about not feeling like I would be able to get more than a 190 on the USMLE Step 1 given the fact that NBME practice tests were low.

I'm curious what happened with OP.

Thanks for all the great advice.
 
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