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callinggg top dental school students
Started by Masterus
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I applaud your ability to insult nearly everyone reading this board with such ease
Let's respond to each part of the question:
"I was wondering the percentage of ivy league graduates in your class for dental school?"
Zero here at Houston.
"I know many people consider med school over dental school so there are not as many"
Not true, per se. People are usually either interested in dental school, or they are interested in med school. Very few people choose dental school as a backup if they didn't get into med school. Application statistics are quite similar.
"also, what about at the three ivy league dental schools?"
Unlike the medical community, the school you attend has very little to do with your reputation within the community. Although certain practitioners may favor graduates of one school over another, your particular skill set, class rank, and philosophy determine your esteem within the community/professional world than the school you attended. Ask any practicing dentist how many times patients have asked them what school they attended? For most dentists, it could probably be counted on their fingers.
Some people really are so crass. Had a person at one of my interviews that was much more so than this.
sorry man, but you read my second question incorrectly. What I meant was that there is a much greater number of people in the world applying to med school than there are to dental school. It has been stated by students of top med schools on this forum that a high percentage of their class come from ivy league or top 20 schools. I was wondering if this was still true for dental schools even though the number of dental schools are much smaller as well as there being much less interest in ivy league students in applying to dental than medical. Also, certain med schools favor their own undergrad so I could not find anything about dental schools as well.
Also, I asked the last question because penn, harvard, and columbia all have high specialization rates that are unmatched by some dental schools. I don't care about what the community thinks of me. I care more about my chances to become the type of dentist I want to be.
Also, I asked the last question because penn, harvard, and columbia all have high specialization rates that are unmatched by some dental schools. I don't care about what the community thinks of me. I care more about my chances to become the type of dentist I want to be.
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and before he started looking like a woman.
1. I go to Columbia. My schoolmates and instructors went to a wide variety of undergraduate schools. I think that anyone here, student or faculty member, would agree that the prestige of your undergrad school has nothing to do with how well you perform at dental school and as a dentist.
2. I went to a very well-regarded undergraduate school. Among all living alumni of my undergrad school, there are maybe 25-30 practicing dentists total. To put that into perspective, maybe 70 graduates from each class become physicians, veterinarians, or other health care professionals. On Columbia's medical campus, I frequently run into people from my undergrad school. None of them go to the dental school.
Why is this the case? My hypothesis is that it is related to the culture at my undergraduate school, which is aimed at molding the grand leaders and "big shots" of tomorrow. If you are the sort of person who thrives in that sort of culture, you would probably do better at a big organization, such as a hospital, than at a small organization, such as a typical dental office.
2. I went to a very well-regarded undergraduate school. Among all living alumni of my undergrad school, there are maybe 25-30 practicing dentists total. To put that into perspective, maybe 70 graduates from each class become physicians, veterinarians, or other health care professionals. On Columbia's medical campus, I frequently run into people from my undergrad school. None of them go to the dental school.
Why is this the case? My hypothesis is that it is related to the culture at my undergraduate school, which is aimed at molding the grand leaders and "big shots" of tomorrow. If you are the sort of person who thrives in that sort of culture, you would probably do better at a big organization, such as a hospital, than at a small organization, such as a typical dental office.
What does the percentage of ivy league undergrad graduates have to do with specialization rate?
Also, "top dental school" really has no meaning. I had a handful of ivy league graduates in my class.
Hmmm, so I imagine you plan on teaching, because having patients is out of the question with a immature statement like that! And if thats the case, what school you atteneded is pointless...
Was I the only one that started to get really annoyed when each sentence was started with "Also, " ?
Bman, you read my post out of context. It is in response to "although certain practitioners may favor graduates of one school over another, your particular skill set, class rank, and philosophy determine your esteem within the community/professional world than the school you attended."
I think business produces more "big shots" of tomorrow than medicine or dental, but I'm not interested in investment banking.
I was just looking for an answer that thankfully some people actually gave, not immature responses that seem to revolve around a majority of the posts concerning ivy league schools on this forum.
and sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone, but people shouldn't reply so vehemently either. I don't want to go into the whole prestige in admissions argument because its just going to end in bickering with no one convincing anyone else as it has in the past. No one has a definite answer on it because it depends on the school as well as the people on the admissions committee.
those questions have nothing to do with each other. It was in response to someone else's response. I believe that excellent faculty, a student population with a strong admission average, constant curriculum innovation, and a solid patient base create a top dental school.
I think business produces more "big shots" of tomorrow than medicine or dental, but I'm not interested in investment banking.
I was just looking for an answer that thankfully some people actually gave, not immature responses that seem to revolve around a majority of the posts concerning ivy league schools on this forum.
and sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone, but people shouldn't reply so vehemently either. I don't want to go into the whole prestige in admissions argument because its just going to end in bickering with no one convincing anyone else as it has in the past. No one has a definite answer on it because it depends on the school as well as the people on the admissions committee.
those questions have nothing to do with each other. It was in response to someone else's response. I believe that excellent faculty, a student population with a strong admission average, constant curriculum innovation, and a solid patient base create a top dental school.
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I get the feeling that if this criteria led you to deduce that schools like Nebraska, Iowa, and Ohio State were among the "top dental schools" you probably still wouldn't consider them.
masterus, the more you defend yourself, the worse this is going to get. There is no ranking with the dental schools. A dds or dmd is the same on the west as it is on the east. You can still practice wherever you feel like. For me, the cheapest dental school would be the best 🙂
I just found the new ADA ranking of dental schools - they all suck. As in-dental school sucks.
Even though a dmd/dds is the same from anywhere, there is a reason why there isn't a standard gpa/standard DAT constant for all schools. The dentist field is small and in demand. There is still some disparity between the scores of lower schools and top schools. The only reason the disparity isn't that big is because there are not as many dental schools as medical schools or law schools, where you can actually see a much greater disparity. By your logic, you're saying a bachelors from anywhere is the same, but the name of the school has become a brand. Sure, it is physically the same, but the branding of the degree still matters. Just like Wharton is a brand name in the business world, Harvard is a brand name in medicine and dentistry. I bet there are dental schools more well known and regarded by others. I think right now not as much, but as more dental schools open up and the field expands, you'll definitely see branding matter more and more. Especially going international, the brand of your degree matters a lot more.
lol. highly doubt a dentist would care about going international.
once you settle somewhere, your reputation of your work counts more than the reputation of your school. go to an ivy if that strokes your ego.
like it's been said MANY times, almost no patient asks which school you're from when you're a dentist. if you want to impress the rare patient that asks or the predent that is shadowing you, go to an ivy.
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I think that's wrong. Many countries lack a quality dentistry. The economy for dentists is booming worldwide.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566872/Lack-of-NHS-dentists-forces-patients-abroad.html
http://esperanza.org/us/content/view/81/34/
I know many dentists look for work especially in oil-rich Middle Eastern locations for economic reasons. It was in the news some time ago that two american dentists were working for the royalty of some Middle Eastern country.
With your reasoning, that could apply to everything. You are saying that it doesn't matter where you go to school for every degree. For law, clients don't ask the lawyers where they went to school, they just want good defense. For business, people do not ask stock traders where they go to school or where investment bankers go to school. Sure, most people in all levels of society don't reguarly ask other people where they go to school, but that doesn't make where you go pointless.
The only reason you can say that is because there is a shortage of dentists in the US. If there is a surplus, then education will matter a lot more. It's behavioral economics. With surpluses, people would be able to pick and choose like they do for lawyers. Once the field becomes over saturated in the future, where you were educated will matter so much more for patients deciding on where and who has the better credentials to seek treatment for the first time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566872/Lack-of-NHS-dentists-forces-patients-abroad.html
http://esperanza.org/us/content/view/81/34/
I know many dentists look for work especially in oil-rich Middle Eastern locations for economic reasons. It was in the news some time ago that two american dentists were working for the royalty of some Middle Eastern country.
With your reasoning, that could apply to everything. You are saying that it doesn't matter where you go to school for every degree. For law, clients don't ask the lawyers where they went to school, they just want good defense. For business, people do not ask stock traders where they go to school or where investment bankers go to school. Sure, most people in all levels of society don't reguarly ask other people where they go to school, but that doesn't make where you go pointless.
The only reason you can say that is because there is a shortage of dentists in the US. If there is a surplus, then education will matter a lot more. It's behavioral economics. With surpluses, people would be able to pick and choose like they do for lawyers. Once the field becomes over saturated in the future, where you were educated will matter so much more for patients deciding on where and who has the better credentials to seek treatment for the first time.
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By the bolded letters above, didn't you answer your own question? I do agree that Ivy league students are less interested in dental school, and using that logic, there would be far fewer applicants and thus there would not be a high percentage of their class that comes from Ivy league schools.
Also, maybe I should ask what type of dentist you would like to be? (perhaps off topic from your original question) I feel 100% confident that the type of dentist you would like to be is NOT determined by the school you attend, but the effort and work that you put in. I think there is a misunderstanding that certain schools have some baseline level of talent and curricula that make their students better dentists. Perhaps average levels of talent are lower at non Ivy league schools, but the top students, both academically and clinically, will be highly similar across the board.
You could say that Ivy league schools don't have poor students, and you would most likely be correct because a large portion of their class is likely made of very academically talented young individuals with good work ethics. Plus, their class sizes are a lot smaller and they can be more selective in the students that they choose. The fallacy of this is that dentistry is not always about academic intelligence. The "best dentists" may not have made an A in biochem, physiology, etc... but they are critical thinkers and have excellent patient management skills, a masterful knowledge of the materials and tools they are using and are ethically motivated. I don't think this addresses your original question's intent, but perhaps clarifies my response to my first perceived understanding of the question itself.
Also, I agree.
i love his example. if we want to work for some rich oil tycoons in the middle east, we need to attend an ivy.
lol that's ok. i'll just stay in north america.
i shadowed long enough with dif dentists to know that almost no one asks where you graduated from
stop trying to make an argument out of nothing. patients come to you because they heard from family and friends that you're a good dentist. they don't flock to you for your ivy diploma.
lol that's ok. i'll just stay in north america.
i shadowed long enough with dif dentists to know that almost no one asks where you graduated from
stop trying to make an argument out of nothing. patients come to you because they heard from family and friends that you're a good dentist. they don't flock to you for your ivy diploma.
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And going to a name brand school certainly guarantees that you will have better credentials as a dentist
this thread is hilarrrrrious
Just like the brand of your clothes matter in highschool, no one gives a crap what brand you wear while in dental school. I cant afford to buy A&F clothes anymore masterus, does that make me a bad dentist?
PS I dont go to a Ivy League school, and I would bet my left foot I will be more successful/happy with what I do, judging from your responses and viewpoints...
PPS no one dislikes Ivy League grads, we just don't like the notion that people think if they attend an Ivy League school, they will be better dentists. The two are not related. Many will make the argument that these schools breed specialists but, inherently, the students who become GPs lacked the essential clinic experience found at some of those lesser, unworthy schools.
Funny that you're arguing you're correct, theoretically, even though it's been pointed out several times that you're wrong empirically.
For the vast, vast majority of dentists, what university they attended for dental school* likely has very little impact on their lives, practice, income or any of several other measures of success.
*Controlled for amount of student debt
Take it this way.. the mythology of whatever benefits exist around the Ivy League is icing on a cake, but first you have to make the cake with hard work (good grades, extra-curriculars, awards). Icing by itself isn't very filling but still tasty. Cake alone is usually pretty darn good, even without icing. Work hard and do things for the sake of doing them and you will have no problem being successful in whatever you do. Whatever brands are attached to you will always add a tasty layer, but you gotta keep going with your achievements or else people will just say "so what?"
ps. Yes, I'm hungry 🙂
ps. Yes, I'm hungry 🙂
Me too. Tres leches cake...mmm.
I quote someone from an older thread who says that people who are from the more prestigious schools say it matters and the people from the less prestigious schools say it doesn't matter. One side is either in denial or the other from self-deception. To say I am empirically wrong is to be ignorant and rude.
The level of school prestige matters for doctors and people in the business world. Why would it be different a profession for dentists, especially in the next 50 years when it will become saturated.
But you know what? If you are actually a good people's person and you have conversations with your patients, I guarantee that the question of where you went to school will come up. I know many dentists who don't talk to their patients at all or just talk about their teeth so the chance doesn't come up. It doesn't mean that the person hasn't thought about the education of their dentist at one point.
Many of you are also speaking from a purely private practice point too. There are many other opportunities for dentists that rely on prestige, including dental research, academic dentistry and dental education, PHCP.
And camshaft, everyone I know at penn undergrad believes that the name matters. I hope you weren't just studying in your room all the time haha, but you can ask anyone on campus and they would agree.
Success and prestige are commonly associated things. In high school, I am sure that most teenagers undisputedly thought Harvard was the best school in the world. You have a huge percentage of the population under that conception.
I was trying to figure out a question, not gain reassurance. I know that applications with good stats from the ivy leagues are huge pluses because only around 1% give or take of all ivy league undergrads actually pursue dental careers.
BTW, quote from a dentist who is a member of SDN.
"Hello there,
The name of the school where you got your degree DOES matter at first impression only for some people. Others simply do not care! It is how well you treat the patient in terms of patient management and quality of work that puts your reputation at risk. However, one of my dentist friends who works with me graduated from Havard and yesterday, a patient of mine said to me " wow, he is from Havard so I bet you come and ask him for advice sometimes right? I heard that's the top dental school in the world!" No kidding here. So the name does matter to SOME people. DP"
I'm sure if you're a ****ty dentist, sucks to be you, but impressions are influenced by prestige. If you're looking online for dentists or some specialty, and you see someone who went to harvard and someone who didn't go to harvard. They would most likely pick the harvard dentist.
The level of school prestige matters for doctors and people in the business world. Why would it be different a profession for dentists, especially in the next 50 years when it will become saturated.
But you know what? If you are actually a good people's person and you have conversations with your patients, I guarantee that the question of where you went to school will come up. I know many dentists who don't talk to their patients at all or just talk about their teeth so the chance doesn't come up. It doesn't mean that the person hasn't thought about the education of their dentist at one point.
Many of you are also speaking from a purely private practice point too. There are many other opportunities for dentists that rely on prestige, including dental research, academic dentistry and dental education, PHCP.
And camshaft, everyone I know at penn undergrad believes that the name matters. I hope you weren't just studying in your room all the time haha, but you can ask anyone on campus and they would agree.
Success and prestige are commonly associated things. In high school, I am sure that most teenagers undisputedly thought Harvard was the best school in the world. You have a huge percentage of the population under that conception.
I was trying to figure out a question, not gain reassurance. I know that applications with good stats from the ivy leagues are huge pluses because only around 1% give or take of all ivy league undergrads actually pursue dental careers.
BTW, quote from a dentist who is a member of SDN.
"Hello there,
The name of the school where you got your degree DOES matter at first impression only for some people. Others simply do not care! It is how well you treat the patient in terms of patient management and quality of work that puts your reputation at risk. However, one of my dentist friends who works with me graduated from Havard and yesterday, a patient of mine said to me " wow, he is from Havard so I bet you come and ask him for advice sometimes right? I heard that's the top dental school in the world!" No kidding here. So the name does matter to SOME people. DP"
I'm sure if you're a ****ty dentist, sucks to be you, but impressions are influenced by prestige. If you're looking online for dentists or some specialty, and you see someone who went to harvard and someone who didn't go to harvard. They would most likely pick the harvard dentist.
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Yet your pre-dents says you went to Fluoride State Univ?
I never went to none ivy leaugz but perdy sure florida aint on the list.
Unless you got your MBA from an Ivy League. Then excuse me, sir.
also, doc smile, god help you if you like abercrombie. it's the definition of posing preppy...and wearing crappy clothing haha
I don't think it hurts to go to a better school. But given the selective nature of certain residencies, any little edge helps such as attending better schools. Of course board scores, interviews, LOR's and the dean's letter matter, but the school adds a little more-just like how someone added earlier describing it as "icing on the cake,"
This is a quote from someone at cornell med, but you can apply the reasoning to dental schools.
"Finally if you are hoping to go into a field where perceived public opinion of your medical training will play a large role in your success, then obviously going to a name school will be better. Careers like being plastic surgeon to the rich and famous, or being involved in politics or lobbying will be enhanced if you are from some place like Harvard. Keep in mind though that it is the public perception that will matter more than the actual quality. While medical schools like WashU, UCSF, University of Washington and UPenn hold a lot of weight in the medical world and are generally considered "better" than Yale, Stanford, and Georgetown, the general public will likely value the latter schools over the former. Further, one cannot overlook the regional biases that exist throughout the country. For example, I know for a fact that many people in Kansas think the KU SOM is phenomenal and that I was an idiot for not going there when I got in, despite the fact that my medical school is much higher ranked in USNWR and pulling in more research money, so on and so forth. I'm sure that many Kansans would choose a physician, all things being equal, from KU SOM over WashU SOM, simply b/c they don't know the real reputations."
The public opinion is the majority.
I don't think it hurts to go to a better school. But given the selective nature of certain residencies, any little edge helps such as attending better schools. Of course board scores, interviews, LOR's and the dean's letter matter, but the school adds a little more-just like how someone added earlier describing it as "icing on the cake,"
This is a quote from someone at cornell med, but you can apply the reasoning to dental schools.
"Finally if you are hoping to go into a field where perceived public opinion of your medical training will play a large role in your success, then obviously going to a name school will be better. Careers like being plastic surgeon to the rich and famous, or being involved in politics or lobbying will be enhanced if you are from some place like Harvard. Keep in mind though that it is the public perception that will matter more than the actual quality. While medical schools like WashU, UCSF, University of Washington and UPenn hold a lot of weight in the medical world and are generally considered "better" than Yale, Stanford, and Georgetown, the general public will likely value the latter schools over the former. Further, one cannot overlook the regional biases that exist throughout the country. For example, I know for a fact that many people in Kansas think the KU SOM is phenomenal and that I was an idiot for not going there when I got in, despite the fact that my medical school is much higher ranked in USNWR and pulling in more research money, so on and so forth. I'm sure that many Kansans would choose a physician, all things being equal, from KU SOM over WashU SOM, simply b/c they don't know the real reputations."
The public opinion is the majority.
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I'm confused... what are you saying?
At first you were wondering if an ivy league undergrad helps? Now you're wondering if an ivy league dental school matters?
Anyway, I think the answer is pretty much no. Coming from an ivy league undergrad may help very slightly since AdCom's will know that your school was rigorous. Although, that's debatable I'll give you that one.
Coming from an ivy league dental school, it just won't help you. Dentists have conversations with their patients all day long and guess what? Probably 95% of those patients have no care in the world where you went to school. On the rare occasion someone may ask. However even if they leave you that will not significantly affect your patient pool, thus has no real significance.
At first you were wondering if an ivy league undergrad helps? Now you're wondering if an ivy league dental school matters?
Anyway, I think the answer is pretty much no. Coming from an ivy league undergrad may help very slightly since AdCom's will know that your school was rigorous. Although, that's debatable I'll give you that one.
Coming from an ivy league dental school, it just won't help you. Dentists have conversations with their patients all day long and guess what? Probably 95% of those patients have no care in the world where you went to school. On the rare occasion someone may ask. However even if they leave you that will not significantly affect your patient pool, thus has no real significance.
the topic got off topic a while ago...it's all in response to what people wrote recently. It's deviated from the original questions.
A 3.7 princeton biology major beats a 4.0 from most schools hands down. If an adcom saw a 4.0 MIT student, he would be far far more impressed with that than a 4.0 at a small no name school. There is no way to disprove that ivy leagues don't help, but there are statistics that can correlate higher acceptances for ivy league schools and other top notch schools. Keep in mind that around 4% give or take of ivy league students pursue med school. Much less for dental schools. That is why schools are not saturated with ivy league students, not because prestige doesn't matter for admission.
The point isn't the patient leaving you. Earlier, I mentioned how the prestige is meant to attract new patients. Your skills/manners keep the patient.
A 3.7 princeton biology major beats a 4.0 from most schools hands down. If an adcom saw a 4.0 MIT student, he would be far far more impressed with that than a 4.0 at a small no name school. There is no way to disprove that ivy leagues don't help, but there are statistics that can correlate higher acceptances for ivy league schools and other top notch schools. Keep in mind that around 4% give or take of ivy league students pursue med school. Much less for dental schools. That is why schools are not saturated with ivy league students, not because prestige doesn't matter for admission.
The point isn't the patient leaving you. Earlier, I mentioned how the prestige is meant to attract new patients. Your skills/manners keep the patient.
False analogy, cake is simply a carrier for frosting.
The mature thing to do would be to just admit that the op was crass and a poor way of asking a question. Sometimes we say dumb things and people get offended. We've all done it. But there is a reason you got the responses you did: it was a poorly conceived question.
This is what I've learned working in dentistry the last couple of years. This is also what our company determined through 5 years of market research. When patients look for a new dentist, the VAST majority of the time they are going because of referrals from friends/family and because of who is in network with their insurance. The key to aquiring and retaining patients is through quality dentistry and sucessful marketing. Where you went for your undergrad has nothing to do with it. Nor has where somebody went to dental school had any influence on patients' decisions. And that was a studied dimension of the research.
If you actually wanted your question answered, then you would listen to what knowledge is being shared by the SDN community. If you don't want to listen, that's fine too. But then don't ask.
This is what I've learned working in dentistry the last couple of years. This is also what our company determined through 5 years of market research. When patients look for a new dentist, the VAST majority of the time they are going because of referrals from friends/family and because of who is in network with their insurance. The key to aquiring and retaining patients is through quality dentistry and sucessful marketing. Where you went for your undergrad has nothing to do with it. Nor has where somebody went to dental school had any influence on patients' decisions. And that was a studied dimension of the research.
If you actually wanted your question answered, then you would listen to what knowledge is being shared by the SDN community. If you don't want to listen, that's fine too. But then don't ask.
That's a generalization at best, and empirically you are wrong. Anyone who claims to know the "answer" to this issue is wrong. Discussions like this are universally equivocal, and the "benefits" being claimed are so vague and ethereal as to almost be unmeasurable.
Care to qualify these statements with proof? I would again argue for the vast majority of physicians, prestige is not something that directly affects their lives. I would also contend that your speculation on the future of dentistry is just that: wild speculation.
I'm interested to have you flesh these ideas out to see how, in your imagination, "prestige" affects how patients choose their dentists/physicians. You're suggesting the patient is already in the chair. Do they shop around for dentists, getting consults/xrays until they find a dentist who went ot an appropriate dental school? Or do they call and ask the front desk? Rely on advertising?
Again, I'd like to see some evidence the a majority of academicians and leaders in dentistry are associated with Ivy league universities.
Do they teach you about selection bias at Penn?
The plural of anecdote is not fact, and you don't even have a plurality yet. SOME people do care about this kind of thing, that is undeniable. You yourself are an excellent example of someone who cares. No one denies that. The issue we have is significance. The people disagreeing with you are arguing that most people do not choose their dentists based on prestige.
More likely they'll pick the person recommended to them by a family member or co-worker, get drawn in by a promotion (Groupon, direct mail), are in network on their insurance or decide based on proximity to home/work. Dental marketing/practice management firms have known about the ways people select their dentists for decades.
OP doesn't have a choice but to argue. He already has entrenched beliefs (Student at an Ivy) and didn't get the response he was looking for.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
It's a pretty well documented phenomenon, and we all do it to some extent.
awesome link--something we've all encountered in our real lives.
This was a triumph. I'm making a note here, huge success.
i believe the original question was "will having gone to an ivy help me get into dental school". im not sure how pointing out my ugrad has anything to do with anything. go seminoles.
*Sees Masterus posts a long post full of conjecture to support his stance.*
*Assumes Armorshell will dissect his post with an actual understanding of evidence.*
*Assumes Armorshell will dissect his post with an actual understanding of evidence.*
Thus implying you yourself, through real world experience, have experienced the 'leg up' by having an Ivy Degree
Most of your drivel has been adequately dissected by others, so there's no reason to plow that field again. I do want to point out a massive flaw that hasn't been addressed yet, though. How many people are going to assume that a Harvard dentist is significantly more expensive than peers? Especially one who advertises that Harvard degree. How much business will that turn away?
Clearly I am making generalizations here that almost never play out in the real world. I simply want to use your "logic" to point out how incredibly one-sided your arguments are. Going to Harvard instead of UMKC is not going to bring more success to a private practice. If a person had the choice between those two programs, I'd argue that UMKC's significantly cheaper tuition would actually make it the better choice.
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