Can a clinical superviser do this.....

[Resident92]

I have a serious question. I am a post doc in supervision with a couple of peers. One of my peers has had some difficulty with the supervisor because he is difficult and overly demanding and she has chosen to stand her ground in a few ways but sort of passive aggressive in her approach. She has finished her hours and he refused to sign her completion form.

He stated that she did not follow through on a couple of clinical recommendations that he made for treatment and that she did not respond the way he asked her to for two specific cases and stated that it is a question of ethics and therefore he does not feel he "can validate that she is a competent psychologist."
He also then asked her to be removed from the "intensive team" due to the lack of following his directives. The agency director said no and there was no progressive guidance and/or consequences on any end for her with the agency.

The agency director has given him a directive to sign her completion form, he stated I am not going to do so and I do not have to.
Now, I have been there and seen the struggles and I have never seen him demand or assert that she was not following direction. We also all have individual supervision notes that both parties sign and he made no contention in the notes about her behavior. He allowed her to complete all the hours and then now refuses to sign??????????

Is that ethical on his part?
I thought I had seen everything before this…..

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PHD12]

I have a serious question. I am a post doc in supervision with a couple of peers. One of my peers has had some difficulty with the supervisor because he is difficult and overly demanding and she has chosen to stand her ground in a few ways but sort of passive aggressive in her approach. She has finished her hours and he refused to sign her completion form.

He stated that she did not follow through on a couple of clinical recommendations that he made for treatment and that she did not respond the way he asked her to for two specific cases and stated that it is a question of ethics and therefore he does not feel he "can validate that she is a competent psychologist."
He also then asked her to be removed from the "intensive team" due to the lack of following his directives. The agency director said no and there was no progressive guidance and/or consequences on any end for her with the agency.

The agency director has given him a directive to sign her completion form, he stated I am not going to do so and I do not have to.
Now, I have been there and seen the struggles and I have never seen him demand or assert that she was not following direction. We also all have individual supervision notes that both parties sign and he made no contention in the notes about her behavior. He allowed her to complete all the hours and then now refuses to sign??????????

Is that ethical on his part?
I thought I had seen everything before this…..

You can make the case that this is an ethical violation, particularly if he failed to give her warnings or chances to improve her behavior, and signed all her notes. It also sounds like he does not have very specific reasons for why he will not sign her hours (just a vague response that she did not do what he wanted).

If he continues to refuse to sign her hours, I would encourage her to contact the board of psychology in her state. I think she may be able to file an ethical complaint against him or at least consult with the board. Some psychology state boards also have a lawyer or legal representative that can answer questions. Due to the power differential, I would imagine that she would have rights as a psychological assistant or employer. She already has her degree at this point and needs to advocate for herself. I believe that if she consulted with an attorney, state licensing board, and collegues at the agency, and then informed this supervisor that she is not backing down, she will be in a very strong position. Psychologists are scared as hell of having any problems with the board (he worked for 8 years to get his licensure). Plus, the agency director is on her side as well. I would imagine that she is in a good position to get those hours, assuming that she did not practice in an incompetent manner. I think filing a legal complaint would be a last resort, but she can get good leverage by just consulting with an attorney or the board and informing the supervisor that she is willing to take further action and has some witnesses who can back her up. I would also encourage her to keep a record of all communications with this supervisor.

I recall from my ethics course and ethics seminars that the board of psychology has taken disciplinary action against supervisors in the past for various ethical violations with supervisees (most have to do with dual relationships). This affects their ability to practice.

 

[Resident92]

The suggestions you stated were directly brought up to the superviser and the repsonse was "Go ahead. I have done it 3 times in the past. Nothing ever happens"

 

[erg923]

One of the 101 basics in working in an academic or training role is documentation of problematic trainee behavior, not just for the sake of their own learning and communication with colleagues, but for cases where serious disciplinary action (dismal, denial of advancement/milestones, etc) may be required. Why would this be any different? Is this a new supervisor unfamiliar basic admin procedures?

 

[Pragma]

The suggestions you stated were directly brought up to the superviser and the repsonse was "Go ahead. I have done it 3 times in the past. Nothing ever happens"

Sounds like a real winner....I'd say this comment would tip me over to siding with the postdoc and not the supervisor, being unfamiliar with the details of the situation.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Sounds like a real winner....I'd say this comment would tip me over to siding with the postdoc and not the supervisor, being unfamiliar with the details of the situation.

+1. Not following through on treatment recommendations is an ethical situation, but if the agency director is siding with the postdoc (and the supervisor still isn't even listening to him/her), then it sounds like moving on to the state psych board is the next step.

Additionally, if the agency director keeps on the pressure, I'd be very, very surprised if the supervisor doesn't eventually concede.

 

[Resident92]

One of the 101 basics in working in an academic or training role is documentation of problematic trainee behavior, not just for the sake of their own learning and communication with colleagues, but for cases where serious disciplinary action (dismal, denial of advancement/milestones, etc) may be required. Why would this be any different? Is this a new supervisor unfamiliar basic admin procedures?

I am not going to give any more details per se but first....HELL NO. The supe has been in practice many, many years.

When you do not document trying to assist someone with learning and training, good and bad, I think that is just as bad as not keeping patient records. I see a supervisers job as being a mentor, educator and trainer. Given the absence of any major concerns, neglect, abuse, sex with a client, etc.etc....

 

[Resident92]

+1. Not following through on treatment recommendations is an ethical situation, but if the agency director is siding with the postdoc (and the supervisor still isn't even listening to him/her), then it sounds like moving on to the state psych board is the next step.

Additionally, if the agency director keeps on the pressure, I'd be very, very surprised if the supervisor doesn't eventually concede.

He won't. He has the disposition that he can walk away and walk into some where else. He is also is not lacking in finances....

 

[Doctor Eliza]

As suggested above, I would go to the state board. Although I am not certain of the details, there were about 6 cases of disciplinary action against licensed psychologists for "supervision violations" in my state during the last renewal cycle. State boards take supervision seriously.

APA might also have some ideas or resources. I don't have any specific ideas, but i know they have ethical consultation lines and things like that.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[Resident92]

As suggested above, I would go to the state board. Although I am not certain of the details, there were about 6 cases of disciplinary action against licensed psychologists for "supervision violations" in my state during the last renewal cycle. State boards take supervision seriously.

APA might also have some ideas or resources. I don't have any specific ideas, but i know they have ethical consultation lines and things like that.

Best,
Dr. E

I have suggested that if the super is in fact intent on not signing and she feels that she is correct that she contact the state board and an attorney.

 

[PHD12]

The suggestions you stated were directly brought up to the superviser and the repsonse was "Go ahead. I have done it 3 times in the past. Nothing ever happens"

You are jumping to conclusions here though. You don't know if in fact someone ever contacted the licensing board to file a complaint against him. He sounds like the type of winner that may exaggerate this sort of thing or think he is immune to harm. I'm sure someone will bring him down, if your collegue doesn't. He may also give up once she does in fact consult with a lawyer and tells him that she is going to take action. You never know.

 

[Resident92]

You are jumping to conclusions here though. You don't know if in fact someone ever contacted the licensing board to file a complaint against him. He sounds like the type of winner that may exaggerate this sort of thing or think he is immune to harm. I'm sure someone will bring him down, if your collegue doesn't. He may also give up once she does in fact consult with a lawyer and tells him that she is going to take action. You never know.

I am not jumping to conclusions...the superviser said that statement himself......

I tend to think it is bull....All I can say is I am taking notes on everything for my own sake!

 

[PHD12]

I am not jumping to conclusions...the superviser said that statement himself......

I tend to think it is bull....All I can say is I am taking notes on everything for my own sake!

Scary to think that this psychologist is in practice and treating the most vulnerable in our society.

 

[docma]

If this is a formal post-doc there should be a grievance policy in place and in these circumstances, in use. Before engaging the state board, all of the organizational personnel and grievance procedures should be engaged, as this is also where the supervisor's supervisors have actual leverage and will be consulted. Documentation (or lack of it) then becomes evidence that is relevant and carries weight if the procedures are respected by the larger system. The Training Director can potentially exercise authority re certification of the hours if these kinds of policies exist.

 

[deleted176373]

I am not going to give any more details per se but first....HELL NO. The supe has been in practice many, many years.

When you do not document trying to assist someone with learning and training, good and bad, I think that is just as bad as not keeping patient records. I see a supervisers job as being a mentor, educator and trainer. Given the absence of any major concerns, neglect, abuse, sex with a client, etc.etc....

They have incredible latitude and power over the trainee... Being a trainee means learning when NOT to stand your ground. If you are stupid enough to tangle with someone who has MUCH more power than you and not have solid grounds for it, then you will get crushed.

That's the way the system really works. There is a big power differential between a supervisor and a trainee. At this point, the goal should to be survive the experience without doing anything you will be paying for later. There comes a time where you need to swallow your pride and move forward, as long as you are not doing anything professionally unethical or that would be harmful to a patient.

Does it suck... yes, been there done that. Nothing good comes of these fights. By the OP's admission the peer was passive aggressive and the supervisor knows it. He's well within his right to not sign if she thinks that she's not trustworthy and willing to do whatever she pleased even when directed to practice in a specific manner. She put his license at risk by doing so. As her supervisor, he's within his right to be demanding and difficult, he also has reason to not sign because of her behaviors.

She's a psychologist... time to practice those conflict resolution skills. Did the trainee document all this stuff? She should have!

 

[Pragma]

They have incredible latitude and power over the trainee... Being a trainee means learning when NOT to stand your ground. If you are stupid enough to tangle with someone who has MUCH more power than you and not have solid grounds for it, then you will get crushed.

That's the way the system really works. There is a big power differential between a supervisor and a trainee. At this point, the goal should to be survive the experience without doing anything you will be paying for later. There comes a time where you need to swallow your pride and move forward, as long as you are not doing anything professionally unethical or that would be harmful to a patient.

Does it suck... yes, been there done that. Nothing good comes of these fights. By the OP's admission the peer was passive aggressive and the supervisor knows it. He's well within his right to not sign if she thinks that she's not trustworthy and willing to do whatever she pleased even when directed to practice in a specific manner. She put his license at risk by doing so. As her supervisor, he's within his right to be demanding and difficult, he also has reason to not sign because of her behaviors.

She's a psychologist... time to practice those conflict resolution skills. Did the trainee document all this stuff? She should have!

Yep...now I will say, I hear that a lot of people really enjoy their postdocs and this type of experience is probably an outlier.

However, I can attest to exactly what you've said. my postdoc, which could have been awesome, was really more "meh" in large part because of a really difficult supervisor. I still learned a ton and got what I needed out of the experience, but I had to say a lot of "serenity now!"s during those years. Prior to that, most of my supervisors had great interpersonal/management skills.

 

[Sanman]

I had a similar experience during internship and it was eventually resolved in that the Director of Training and Chief of Staff agreed the the supervisor was being unreasonable (giving no warning prior to an official review of problems, blowing off my supervision several times and refusing to sign my certificate even after all of the issues were resolved). This supervisor had also had issues with students in the past. They eventually took him off as my supervisor and had another supervisor for that rotation sign off for me after some hoops. Probably the most stressful experience for me ever knowing that the issue could wipe away 5 years of work in one fell swoop. It played a role me choosing a job over post-doc. I am no one's slave now.

 

[PHD12]

I had a similar experience during internship and it was eventually resolved in that the Director of Training and Chief of Staff agreed the the supervisor was being unreasonable (giving no warning prior to an official review of problems, blowing off my supervision several times and refusing to sign my certificate even after all of the issues were resolved). This supervisor had also had issues with students in the past. They eventually took him off as my supervisor and had another supervisor for that rotation sign off for me after some hoops. Probably the most stressful experience for me ever knowing that the issue could wipe away 5 years of work in one fell swoop. It played a role me choosing a job over post-doc. I am no one's slave now.

Thanks for mentioning this example! Post-docs and interns often feel that they have NO power and cannot do anything when they are treated unfairly. I know several people who had problems with supervisors and were able to resolve these issues by speaking to the director of training or chief of the unit. Often times these supervisors have been problematic in the past so the people at the top are motivated to resolve these issues, and often have difficulties with these supervisors themselves. I know of one instance where a supervisor was even cut out of the training program and is no longer able to work with students. Its nice to see a student being assertive in our field! Often times people are too afraid to say anything and then the supervisor continues to be abusive to future students.

 

[deleted176373]

Thanks for mentioning this example! Post-docs and interns often feel that they have NO power and cannot do anything when they are treated unfairly. I know several people who had problems with supervisors and were able to resolve these issues by speaking to the director of training or chief of the unit. Often times these supervisors have been problematic in the past so the people at the top are motivated to resolve these issues, and often have difficulties with these supervisors themselves. I know of one instance where a supervisor was even cut out of the training program and is no longer able to work with students. Its nice to see a student being assertive in our field! Often times people are too afraid to say anything and then the supervisor continues to be abusive to future students.

Ya, well that doesn't play so well when the DCT is part of the problem. Trust me.

It can go sideways very quickly, to the point that your best friend becomes a voice activated recorder used for later documentation of specific statements. Especially in states where two party notification is NOT required.

M

 

[Sanman]

Thanks for mentioning this example! Post-docs and interns often feel that they have NO power and cannot do anything when they are treated unfairly. I know several people who had problems with supervisors and were able to resolve these issues by speaking to the director of training or chief of the unit. Often times these supervisors have been problematic in the past so the people at the top are motivated to resolve these issues, and often have difficulties with these supervisors themselves. I know of one instance where a supervisor was even cut out of the training program and is no longer able to work with students. Its nice to see a student being assertive in our field! Often times people are too afraid to say anything and then the supervisor continues to be abusive to future students.

I'm not trying to come off as a hero. I was just in a tough position and did what I had to if I wanted to get out. I do agree with Markp though that it can go sideways fast and if I had a choice I would prefer to stay under the radar. I also completed all communication in email so that there was a paper trail and was looking into consulting a lawyer. Post-doc is a little different, but not allowing someone to complete internship without significant warnings and chance to fix the situation is a big issue for any place that wants to keep its APA accreditation as an internship. As this person gave me no warnings, did not complete a formal remediation plan to fix the issues, and refused to sign off after I completed the agreed to remediation plan, the program had little choice. However, it helped that no one on staff liked the guy and knew that he was a bit cluster B.

 

[PHD12]

I'm not trying to come off as a hero. I was just in a tough position and did what I had to if I wanted to get out. I do agree with Markp though that it can go sideways fast and if I had a choice I would prefer to stay under the radar. .

We are, however, talking about a case where the supervisor refused to sign postdoctoral hours despite no previous warnings and signing all her notes (based on what the OP is saying). Why are we talking about staying under the radar then? What are the benefits of not taking action at this point? She is already in a position to lose her hours. We are not talking about a small clinical matter or a disagreement with a supervisor where it may be most effective to let things go.

 

[Sanman]

We are, however, talking about a case where the supervisor refused to sign postdoctoral hours despite no previous warnings and signing all her notes (based on what the OP is saying). Why are we talking about staying under the radar then? What are the benefits of not taking action at this point? She is already in a position to lose her hours. We are not talking about a small clinical matter or a disagreement with a supervisor where it may be most effective to let things go.

Agreed regarding the OP, that was for all those reading who might think it is a great idea to make waves and risk their careers. For the OP's friend, leaving it to the DCT and consulting a lawyer regarding breach of contract are the best bets. The lack of objective objective standards in the field makes this a problem all around.