can an hiv+ person attend medical school?

[tigger0821]

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hey guys,
i am thinking of writing a formal sociological paper for medical school- i want to go into pediatric neuro psyciatry. I have been thinking about this issue for a long time. And I thought before I do formal research I would get medical students opinions on the topic. I know this is very controversial, but its an important issue to consider. so what do you think. do students who know they are hiv postive have a right to enter medical school? Or is this irresponsible? should they consider the inherent risks for patients and even the dangers of scalpels in gross anatomy, drawing blood. etc.

 

[71263]

hey guys,
i am thinking of writing a formal sociological paper for medical school- i want to go into pediatric neuro psyciatry. I have been thinking about this issue for a long time. And I thought before I do formal research I would get medical students opinions on the topic. I know this is very controversial, but its an important issue to consider. so what do you think. do students who know they are hiv postive have a right to enter medical school? Or is this irresponsible? should they consider the inherent risks for patients and even the dangers of scalpels in gross anatomy, drawing blood. etc.

Im not sure I get the controversy. HIV+ individuals have the same rights to do medicine as anyone else. What "inherent risk to the patient" is there, unless the dr sleeps with/shoots up/transfuses blood with them? Even if they take blood or operate on the patient, the patient wont get aids unless the doctor's fluid somehow leaves his/her body and enters the patients. As far as I am aware, this doesnt happen very much.

 

[Drugtech]

The thing to consider with anyone with a terminal disease who is considering entering medicine is that the road is long and hard. The stress of medicine is going to tax the immune system. If you were to say that 10 years is the average life expectancy of someone with HIV who was compliant with their medications and appointments, then most if not all of their last years of life will be spent becoming a physician. Not exactly the greatest quality of life. Consider the medical schools' position: It costs a great deal of money to train one physician--government funding etc. Medical schools are looking to train people who will be able to serve the medical needs of the American people for as long as possible. Someone diagnosed with HIV won't be able to provide as much service as someone with even a manageable longterm disease/disorder. Just presenting the other side of the coin 👍

 

[espbeliever]

also i would wonder, is there any law or such that requires health care workers to notify their patients about their terminal diseases?

 

[misyel]

hey guys,
i am thinking of writing a formal sociological paper for medical school- i want to go into pediatric neuro psyciatry. I have been thinking about this issue for a long time. And I thought before I do formal research I would get medical students opinions on the topic. I know this is very controversial, but its an important issue to consider. so what do you think. do students who know they are hiv postive have a right to enter medical school? Or is this irresponsible? should they consider the inherent risks for patients and even the dangers of scalpels in gross anatomy, drawing blood. etc.

I would think so. As far as I know, there is no law forcing health care providers to disclose to patients whether they have HIV, HBV or HCV infections. I guess their reasoning is, patients aren't required to disclose themselves to the people treating them, so why should they? Either way, you still protect yourself the same way. In a surgeon's case, for example, if a patient becomes exposed to someone with HIV, I think the chance that it will seroconvert to AIDS is about 0.3%.

 

[harmlessfun21]

right on

 

[beastmaster]

Consider the medical schools' position: It costs a great deal of money to train one physician--government funding etc. Medical schools are looking to train people who will be able to serve the medical needs of the American people for as long as possible. Someone diagnosed with HIV won't be able to provide as much service as someone with even a manageable longterm disease/disorder. Just presenting the other side of the coin 👍

Yea, good point, medical students are government-owned slaves, bred only for extracting maximal lifetime labor.

 

[Kubed]

hey guys,
i am thinking of writing a formal sociological paper for medical school- i want to go into pediatric neuro psyciatry. I have been thinking about this issue for a long time. And I thought before I do formal research I would get medical students opinions on the topic. I know this is very controversial, but its an important issue to consider. so what do you think. do students who know they are hiv postive have a right to enter medical school? Or is this irresponsible? should they consider the inherent risks for patients and even the dangers of scalpels in gross anatomy, drawing blood. etc.

I too have thought about this topic and I think that we are dealing with two issues: Do HIV+ students have the right to enter medical school and should a HIV+ doctor practice? As to the first topic, I believe that everyone has the right to attend medical school. HIV, HCV, Parkinson’s and blindness should have no impact on anyone attending med school. A person’s desire to become a healer should be the main criteria for someone attending med school (although MCAT’s, GPA’s and pre-req’s are equally important).

As for should a HIV+ doctor practice, this is a gray area for me. No mater how well intentioned someone is, they must do no harm. The small risk to the patient from a HIV+ surgeon and the large risk to a patient from a drunken surgeon are both still risks. If I contracted HIV or HCV, I don’t know it I could in good conscious treat patients. But that’s just me.

 

[endAIDScom]

Im not sure I get the controversy. HIV+ individuals have the same rights to do medicine as anyone else. What "inherent risk to the patient" is there, unless the dr sleeps with/shoots up/transfuses blood with them? Even if they take blood or operate on the patient, the patient wont get aids unless the doctor's fluid somehow leaves his/her body and enters the patients. As far as I am aware, this doesnt happen very much.

I agree, the question is sort of silly. A needle stick is frightening no matter who else it stuck, and I know plenty of med students (and a few doctors) who don't always practice safe sex and don't know their status.

I was just at a conference where I met a 2nd year from UPenn who (no joke) was worried about getting pregnant from hugging her boyfriend.... I'd be a lot more worried getting any kind of treatment from someone like her than having an HIV positive surgeon. 😀

As far as the life expectancy, I know several folks who are in good health after 20+ years positive.

 

[misyel]

As for should a HIV+ doctor practice, this is a gray area for me. No mater how well intentioned someone is, they must do no harm. The small risk to the patient from a HIV+ surgeon and the large risk to a patient from a drunken surgeon are both still risks. If I contracted HIV or HCV, I don’t know it I could in good conscious treat patients. But that’s just me.

If that's the case, as a patient, would you feel guilty if you have HIV or HCV and you are to undergo surgery, but you never told your surgeons? HIV and HCV contraction isn't a one way street. Besides, every procedure has a risk. What makes this different?

 

[oudoc08]

The thing to consider with anyone with a terminal disease who is considering entering medicine is that the road is long and hard. The stress of medicine is going to tax the immune system. If you were to say that 10 years is the average life expectancy of someone with HIV who was compliant with their medications and appointments, then most if not all of their last years of life will be spent becoming a physician. Not exactly the greatest quality of life. Consider the medical schools' position: It costs a great deal of money to train one physician--government funding etc. Medical schools are looking to train people who will be able to serve the medical needs of the American people for as long as possible. Someone diagnosed with HIV won't be able to provide as much service as someone with even a manageable longterm disease/disorder. Just presenting the other side of the coin 👍

Perhaps the best way to label the situation is selfishness hiding behind a terminal disease (HIV or any other). Insensitive? Perhaps, butthe bottom line is, someone who can't expect to give back to the community a normal life-span's worth of medical treatment and knowledge logically cannot be in it for other than selfish reasons.

However, as medical school/residency is extremely physically and immunologically taxing (thus logically omitting that individual from the upper ranges on the survival charts), I can't see any particular short-term benefit.
In fact, that person, might as well call it an early death sentence. As I posted elsewhere, the stressors of medicine demonstrably CAUSE illness, it doesn't take a genius to imagine the implications on an unstable immunocompromise.

Thus, there is no logical reason for an HIV-infected individual to attempt to go to medical school, and thus, I submit, that the entire discussion is theoretical and thus a moot point.

 

[Kubed]

If that's the case, as a patient, would you feel guilty if you have HIV or HCV and you are to undergo surgery, but you never told your surgeons? HIV and HCV contraction isn't a one way street. Besides, every procedure has a risk. What makes this different?

I agree that viral contraction is a two way street. However, what makes this situation different is obligation. A patient is not bound by the same duty to protect that a doctor is. The doctor is fully responsible to the patient while the patient has no responsibility to the doctor. It sucks, but it’s true. Odds are we will all get some form of sickness form our future patients. But as healers, we have an obligation not to pass it to other patients. I would be pissed to get infected from a patient, but for some of us, that’s part of the gig.

 

[endAIDScom]

Perhaps the best way to label the situation is selfishness hiding behind a terminal disease (HIV or any other). Insensitive? Perhaps, butthe bottom line is, someone who can't expect to give back to the community a normal life-span's worth of medical treatment and knowledge logically cannot be in it for other than selfish reasons.

However, as medical school/residency is extremely physically and immunologically taxing (thus logically omitting that individual from the upper ranges on the survival charts), I can't see any particular short-term benefit.
In fact, that person, might as well call it an early death sentence. As I posted elsewhere, the stressors of medicine demonstrably CAUSE illness, it doesn't take a genius to imagine the implications on an unstable immunocompromise.

Thus, there is no logical reason for an HIV-infected individual to attempt to go to medical school, and thus, I submit, that the entire discussion is theoretical and thus a moot point.

😕 How do you define a normal life span worth of medical treatment? Is someone who doesn't apply to medical school until the age of 40 not going to return a fair amount of care? I don't think there is anyone on SDN who's only reason for wanting to be a doctor is how many people they can treat before they die. Being passionate about something isn't the same as being selfish, and going through a chronic disease, especialy if you like your provider, can make you want to help others in your position.

You might as well call life an early death sentence... Some of my clients when I did prevention work had lived on the streets for more than a decade while co-infected with HIV and hep C, something I would say is just as stressfull as anything any of us will have to deal with on long rotations.

Lastly, it's not at all theoretical. I think 1 HIV positive MD off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure with a little research you can track down the names of at least a dozen.

 

[oudoc08]

😕 How do you define a normal life span worth of medical treatment? Is someone who doesn't apply to medical school until the age of 40 not going to return a fair amount of care? I don't think there is anyone on SDN who's only reason for wanting to be a doctor is how many people they can treat before they die. Being passionate about something isn't the same as being selfish, and going through a chronic disease, especialy if you like your provider, can make you want to help others in your position.

You might as well call life an early death sentence... Some of my clients when I did prevention work had lived on the streets for more than a decade while co-infected with HIV and hep C, something I would say is just as stressfull as anything any of us will have to deal with on long rotations.

Lastly, it's not at all theoretical. I think 1 HIV positive MD off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure with a little research you can track down the names of at least a dozen.

You can cloud the issue by calling a lifespan an early death sentence if you want to, but reality can be defined by laying out the facts. The average person graduates medical school in their mid 20's. The average life span is around 75 years. Medical school + residency would leave an HIV patient only a few years statistically to practice. 50 years vs. a few years???
The comparison doesn't stand by simple quanitification.

Does that mean that an HIV+ doc couldn't contribute? Of course not, he/she could make a large impact, but so could any doctor. I wouldn't argue the OP's question that someone with HIV doesn't have the right to go to medical school. But that still doesn't make it a logical choice, which is what I'm arguing. It doesn't make sense to rack up a hundred grand in debt, kill yourself (no pun intended) with studying, and suffer a medical student existence, when one knows they have a terminal illness.
I won't argue whether med school/residency compares to living on the street, as I don't know what the latter is like (or the majority of the former, yet). I worked as a paramedic for several years and also had close contact with many in the homeless and HIV community, but with all due respect, that brought me nowhere near personally experiencing the plight, and without experiencing it yourself, I doubt you could justifiably argue that point either way.

I also never said there weren't any HIV+ docs, but I would be highly suspect that they had and had knowledge of the disease prior to attending medical school.

 

[stoleyerscrubz]

Maybe we should use the same measures of life insurance companies to gauge the life expectancy of med school applicants. Those with the highest life expectancy will be regarded as more highly qualified applicants.

🙄

Perhaps the best way to label the situation is selfishness hiding behind a terminal disease (HIV or any other). Insensitive? Perhaps, butthe bottom line is, someone who can't expect to give back to the community a normal life-span's worth of medical treatment and knowledge logically cannot be in it for other than selfish reasons.

 

[oudoc08]

Maybe we should use the same measures of life insurance companies to gauge the life expectancy of med school applicants. Those with the highest life expectancy will be regarded as more highly qualified applicants.

🙄

Perhaps you meant to reply to someone else that was arguing an opposite point?

Regardless, your comparison is ridiculous. Life insurance is by it's very definition purely quantitative (ever heard of an actuary table?), and I specifically pointed out that I wouldn't argue the qualitative, as evidenced by the amount of good someone could do as a physician. My point was why anyone affected with a terminal illness want to spend an enormous chunk of their remaining life wrapped up in medical school, not whether they had the right to. You can blow your arm off with a shotgun if you so desire, but would you?

An analogy is a normal person spending 50 years med school/residency (a similar percentage of remaining life), entering practice at 75 and dying a few years later.

It makes no sense, financially, logically, or realistically, and I submit that no sane person would consider it. As persons with HIV+ are typically sane, I opine that they wouldn't either. Considering the later stages of AIDS, and the sequelae that accompanies (dementia, fatigue, etc.), practicing as a physician becomes out of the question anyway, as one would become bed-bound for days from a simple illness (hmmm. where might one pick up such a thing? From a sick person? Why would a doctor be around any of those?)

Before arguing with someone, you should at least make sure you're on the same page.