Can I drop out of PGY-1 in Canada?

[Blitz2006]

So I'm a 3rd year student in the UK (dual citizen, Canadian-British). I want to do residency in the States. However, I want to match on H1B visa. And this means I need to take a year out after I graduate to write Step 3 and enter the NRMP.

So I have 2 options:

1. Take a year off and travel
2. Try to Match into PGY-1 in Canada and then drop out the following year assuming I match into the States for PGY-1.

Is this allowed? I read somewhere that I have to sign ROS contracts, etc. So if I start residency in Canada as an IMG graduate, do I have to be committed for the entire residency, or can I leave when I please?

Thanks,

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[JPR22]

The Return of service varies per province. Generally you can leave after a year if you pay out your contract. Check carms.ca.

 

[Blitz2006]

The Return of service varies per province. Generally you can leave after a year if you pay out your contract. Check carms.ca.

Hey, appreciate the response, thanks.

I'm planning on returning to Ontario for that year...."pay out your contract". What exactly do you mean by contract?

Cheers,

 

[JPR22]

in order to get a residency in ontario, as an IMG, one must sign a return of service contract. You really should check out www.carms.ca

 

[Blitz2006]

in order to get a residency in ontario, as an IMG, one must sign a return of service contract. You really should check out www.carms.ca

Hey,

Thx. Yeh I know about the RoS and I went to the site. Thats my concern though. I know that once you complete residency, you have to spend 5 years in a rural setting.

In my case though, I just want to drop out at PGY-1, not even complete residency....

 

[Giemsa]

Typically, the contracts have a clause to cover this.

If you fail to complete residency (drop out, fail out, bail, don't pass the exams, whatever) you have to repay the funds they already spent on you.

Usually the cost for ONE year runs between $100K-$200K.

So, yes, you can drop out . . . and yes, you will be billed for monies spent.

 

[MontereyMD]

Coming back to reality you should check out the CPSO website and Carms for how difficult it is to get a license and residency in Canada.
The residency directors will likely be able to filter those out who don't have a 100% commitment. They usually go on things like your residency and where you live. There are literally hundreds of dual Canadian citizens around the world whether in Ireland, Caribbean, Australia, Europe, US competing for the 20-30 IMG residencies slots in Ontario.
If you want a career in the US I would suggest you find a cute American boy/girl seduce them and marry them. Forget about the J1 H1 and forget about stressing yourself out going to the imploding self destructing Canadian health care system

 

[Blitz2006]

Thanks for the informative responses guys, cheers.

So basically I can't drop out it seems like. Interesting, didn't know it was so hardcore.

I've heard of residents switching between programs, but I guess thats different?

Any suggestions then for how I should burn my year if I want H1 visa?

Hah, find an American girl? Yeh, its crossed my mind, but not too many American citizens here in the UK

 

[Blitz2006]

Thanks for the informative responses guys, cheers.

So basically I can't drop out it seems like. Interesting, didn't know it was so hardcore.

I've heard of residents switching between programs, but I guess thats different?

Any suggestions then for how I should burn my year if I want H1 visa?

Hah, find an American girl? Yeh, its crossed my mind, but not too many American citizens here in the UK 😉

 

[Giemsa]

I've heard of residents switching between programs, but I guess thats different?

Yes and no. If you're a resident (either IMG or Canadian trained) with a ROS, you have to get the OK from your ROS community/province to switch residencies. It requires mutual agreement to re-write the contract. If the sponsoring province/community doesn't want you to switch, they will refuse the alterations, at which point your options are to pay your way out of the contract (assuming that's permitted) or not make the switch.

 

[Blitz2006]

Yes and no. If you're a resident (either IMG or Canadian trained) with a ROS, you have to get the OK from your ROS community/province to switch residencies. It requires mutual agreement to re-write the contract. If the sponsoring province/community doesn't want you to switch, they will refuse the alterations, at which point your options are to pay your way out of the contract (assuming that's permitted) or not make the switch.

Wow, didnt know all this, thx.

So based on these last few posts, matching into CaRMs would be dumb.

Any suggestions then on what I should do?

Should I match into J1 into the States, or take a year out and wait for H1b?

More importantly, what should I do on my 'year off'? What do all the Canadians do that graduate from the Carribbean schools? Thats what I don't get it.

Thanks again for your posts guys,

 

[MontereyMD]

Believe what you read about how US and other IMG's are treated by the CPSO or other Colleges of Physicians in Canada. The Registrars in these offices should not be dealing with people because you are treated like some criminal trying to apply for a licence. I cannot get over the arrogance and stupidity of those people.
Some US Specialists can't obtained licences in Canada without that extra "11 months" of Canadian training. This is absolutely ludicrous. Say you did your medical school and residency and fellowship at Harvard in Pulmonary and are an attending at Mass Eye and Ear for 10 years and try and apply for license in Canada? Guess what the Canadian licensing boneheads will say? Sorry you didn't do an extra 11 months training back in the early '90's so sorry no licence you can't write the RCPSC exam. Can you believe that silly Canadian nonsense?
Family Medicine might be easier but you have to be a graduate of a US Medical school. So if you go to Oxford/Cambridge Medical school in UK and complete US Family Medicine residency then try and get a Canadian licence the Canadian boneheads will say: sorry you didn't go to a US medical school. However if you went to some backwater Evangelical medical school like Oral Roberts in rural Kentucky then did a US Family Medicine Residency the Canadian licensing boneheads would say: step right in you meet all of our concrete thinking algorythms.
The kicker for me is when I sent in my medical degree from Columbia University it was written in Latin. But the Canadian medical licensing boneheads wouldn't accept a degree not in French or English. Any degree in a foreign language had to be translated. Can you believe Canadians are such boneheads that they consider Latin a "foreign language". Which country of foreigners speaks Latin?
Anyway you're stressing me out just thinking you want to deal with this Canadian nonsense. Like I said before it's a whole lot more fun and less stressful: go to Match or Love .com or hand around the Buckingham Palace and hook up with a US Citizen. Otherwise the rest of your life will be miserable.

 

[tussy]

this would be considered "unprofessional behaviour" ie - starting a program with the intension of not completing it. It's unethical and unprofessional at best and if anyone writes a formal letter stating such, then i could hurt you in the future applying for licensure etc. Taking the spot away from another candidate with the plan of dropping out after a year isn't very nice.

 

[NHL Fever]

I'm not sure why Monterey has such an emotional vendetta against Canada, must have gotten rejected or something in the past. Anyway there's nothing really wrong with the Canadian residencies overall. However it is definitely unethical to join a program with the intention of dumping it. If your goal is to work in the US eventually and you can match to carms then the easiest way is probably to complete residency in Canada and then just find a job in the US. Its easier for a Canadian-trained doctor to move to another country than for doctors from any other country. This is because everyone knows the quality of training is very high, and consistent across the board. The US will have some of the top schools which are better than anything in Canada, but also many lesser quality schools, there is a big range. The lack of standardization and therefore uncertainty is what warrants all the extra verification needed.

 

[docbill]

I'm not sure why Monterey has such an emotional vendetta against Canada, must have gotten rejected or something in the past. Anyway there's nothing really wrong with the Canadian residencies overall. However it is definitely unethical to join a program with the intention of dumping it. If your goal is to work in the US eventually and you can match to carms then the easiest way is probably to complete residency in Canada and then just find a job in the US. Its easier for a Canadian-trained doctor to move to another country than for doctors from any other country. This is because everyone knows the quality of training is very high, and consistent across the board. The US will have some of the top schools which are better than anything in Canada, but also many lesser quality schools, there is a big range. The lack of standardization and therefore uncertainty is what warrants all the extra verification needed.

I kind of agree with Monterey. Canada does make people jump through pretty odd hoops, even when they are trained in the USA (residency). Considering that the human body and diseases are the same in the USA as it is in Canada. I find this odd and insulting to those who didn't cost the Canadian government any money and wish to come back and practice in the country that is desperate for physicians. Don't get me started on this illegal-unethical act of forcing people to do a return of service if they want to do residency in Canada.

Hopefully the new changes coming in 2011, will facilitate the return process for those trained in the USA. I for one am leaning towards doing my residency and fellowship in the USA.

 

[ewon2004]

To be fair to the OP for considering switching programs,

outside of US and Canada, it is fairly common for people to switch residency programs in many European and Asian medical system

they have a different mindset - residency is treated like a job rather than slavery

you get paid for your work in the program (and get the training & experience in exchange for the relatively low pay)

and if you don't like your job and can find a new one, then by all means take it - you don't have the moral responsibility to stay with the program

the original program will have to find another resident to take your spot, or not if they don't feel like needing another resident

if a service cannot operate without residents - then it is a very poorly run and designed service and the attendings need to take some hit usually taking the calls themselves until they can improve the service enough to be independent of residents such as hiring PAs etc

 

[PteFabulous]

Even though it is possible to switch between residencies in Canada, I think it's usually limited to switching at that particular school/hospital. I agree with Tussy in saying that it's really not fair to start a residency in Canada with the intention of leaving. It's incredible difficult for IMG's to get residencies as it is, and if you're not serious about practicing in Canada then don't waste anyone's time.

Waht I don't understand is why are you planning on taking a year off? You said you'd be studying for step 3, well while you already have usmle step 1 and 2 why wouldn't you apply to ERAS (the Us match) right away??