Can I get academic IM?

[futurestrip]

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Im a 3rd year looking to go into IM preferably at an academic IM place in the northeast. I want to keep my options open for fellowship open (cards, GI, pulm/cc) and want to make it as easy as possible by going to the best program I can. NE is preferred but I'm willing to go as far as Chicago/Cleveland if it means I can get into a solid academic place.

Honored my core clerkships except FM and Surgery which were high pass.

Step 1: 253
Level 1: 678
No research at all, not much extracurriculars
Bottom 25% of my class (attendance was graded)

Assuming my Step 2 and Level 2 are in the same range what are the best IM programs I can expect interviews from if I apply very broadly?
Input from current residents or attendings would be much appreciated. Thanks guys!

 

[PC89]

Yeah you'll be fine with that step 1.

 

[sab3156]

You can get into an academic program. But here's the reality - top programs probably won't talk to you, and lack of research will hurt you at many mid tier programs. You also haven't said anything about your letters. I don't know why people are citing programs that probably won't talk to you unless you have letters from well known academic faculty (for example, BUSM).

In any case, you should ask on the IM subforum, as you're going to get a lot of bad advice here.

 

[AlteredScale]

Im a 3rd year looking to go into IM preferably at an academic IM place in the northeast. I want to keep my options open for fellowship open (cards, GI, pulm/cc) and want to make it as easy as possible by going to the best program I can. NE is preferred but I'm willing to go as far as Chicago/Cleveland if it means I can get into a solid academic place.

Honored my core clerkships except FM and Surgery which were high pass.

Step 1: 253
Level 1: 678
No research at all, not much extracurriculars
Bottom 25% of my class (attendance was graded)

Assuming my Step 2 and Level 2 are in the same range what are the best IM programs I can expect interviews from if I apply very broadly?
Input from current residents or attendings would be much appreciated. Thanks guys!

Congrats on the great scores.

Get some research done now. Prepare your 4th year well and rotate at strong uni hospitals to get strong faculty/APD/PD LORs. Do some volunteering. Apply to university and communiversity programs in the region of your choice. Would suggest around 30-50. Make sure there are safeties in there. You do not want to SOAP and no one is immune to it. Apply safe.

 

[DameJulie]

What are some examples of top-tier IM programs that would ignore DO students anyway? What about examples of mid-tier IM programs that possibly are OK with DOs?

 

[Kardio]

What are some examples of top-tier IM programs that would ignore DO students anyway?

Realistically, all of them. Trending towards more open-minded, though.

Exceptions include Mayo (yes - Rochester; "0.5% DO," per FREIDA), UT Southwestern (1 DO in the program), and UWash (1 DO in the program).

What about examples of mid-tier IM programs that possibly are OK with DOs?

Most are at least open to it.

Per FREIDA:
There are 551 IM residency programs. Of those, 146 are University-Based.
35 of 146 have 0% DOs
91 of 146 have >= 1% DOs
66 of 146 have >= 5% DOs
47 of 146 have >= 10% DOs

(a small number, like Mayo, have 1% > %DOs > 0%)

 

[Deecee2DO]

Low tier Uni like Miami or GW is not hard for someone with your scores. Mid tier is def doable but competitive and tippy top tier (MGH Duke UMich JHU) is probably harder than trying to match plastics or derm as a DO aka its close to impossible simply because its out of your control unfortunately despite all your clearly evident hard work and rockstar scores. Anythings possible of course like being one of the first DOs at one of those top programs but literally your only chance with that would be letters and connections somehow solely because of the two letters after your name and sadly thats the reality even if you had a 280 Step 1 honored every clerkship and 23 first authors

 

[sab3156]

Realistically, all of them. Trending towards more open-minded, though.

Exceptions include Mayo (yes - Rochester; "0.5% DO," per FREIDA), UT Southwestern (1 DO in the program), and UWash (1 DO in the program).



Most are at least open to it.

Per FREIDA:
There are 551 IM residency programs. Of those, 146 are University-Based.
35 of 146 have 0% DOs
91 of 146 have >= 1% DOs
66 of 146 have >= 5% DOs
47 of 146 have >= 10% DOs

(a small number, like Mayo, have 1% > %DOs > 0%)

The disclaimer here though is that it's not realistic to place any faith in competitive programs that have matched a DO once or sporadically. They likely do so due to big name connections and politics of that kind of thing. If they care a lot about their prestige they will likely not match another DO, at least for a very long time. There are numerous examples of this, such as UChicago, and this sort of thing is also not limited to IM.

Low tier Uni like Miami or GW is not hard for someone with your scores. Mid tier is def doable but competitive and tippy top tier (MGH Duke UMich JHU) is probably harder than trying to match plastics or derm as a DO aka its close to impossible simply because its out of your control unfortunately despite all your clearly evident hard work and rockstar scores. Anythings possible of course like being one of the first DOs at one of those top programs but literally your only chance with that would be letters and connections somehow solely because of the two letters after your name and sadly thats the reality even if you had a 280 Step 1 honored every clerkship and 23 first authors

Why did you cite BUSM as an example of a program that is within reach? This is why OP should seek advice for IM faculty and residents in the IM subforum, as there are only a few people here who can help him out with real information.

 

[Deecee2DO]

The disclaimer here though is that it's not realistic to place any faith in competitive programs that have matched a DO once or sporadically. They likely do so due to big name connections and politics of that kind of thing. If they care a lot about their prestige they will likely not match another DO, at least for a very long time. There are numerous examples of this, such as UChicago, and this sort of thing is also not limited to IM.



Why did you cite BUSM as an example of a program that is within reach? This is why OP should seek advice for IM faculty and residents in the IM subforum, as there are only a few people here who can help him out with real information.

I did because it is if he networks. With a Step score in that range research under their belt and networking its not out of reach. This is not bad advice because I am not wrong. DOs have matched BUSM. Easy? Not at all. Possible? Yes if you play your cards right

 

[Kardio]

The disclaimer here though is that it's not realistic to place any faith in competitive programs that have matched a DO once or sporadically.

Agreed - which is why I said "realistically, all of them [would not be receptive to apps from DOs]."

They likely do so due to big name connections and politics of that kind of thing.

Sounds reasonable. It's possible that these individuals fostered connections through their own efforts.

If they had strong enough family connections to land an exceptional residency as a DO, it's unlikely to me that they would have needed to go DO in the first place. I could be wrong on this point - I understand the institutions (school and residency) don't completely overlap. I also have no personal experience with this, all I've got is the data.

If they care a lot about their prestige they will likely not match another DO, at least for a very long time. There are numerous examples of this, such as UChicago, and this sort of thing is also not limited to IM.

Do you believe that the frequency of DOs training in top tier IM programs has been constant over the past two decades?

 

[sab3156]

I did because it is if he networks. With a Step score in that range research under their belt and networking its not out of reach. This is not bad advice because I am not wrong. DOs have matched BUSM. Easy? Not at all. Possible? Yes if you play your cards right

I personally have friends at BUSM in IM (I went to school with them in Boston) and I can tell you that they don't interview DOs unless you have the right letters and research. Step score has little to do with opening doors at BUSM, so I'm not sure why you're citing his Step score.

In any case, he's coming to the end of third year. He has no research or academic faculty letters. It's bad advice and unrealistic to talk about competitive programs in Boston at this point. This is why I always tell people to just go to the subforums in the particular specialty they're asking about rather than getting residency advice from 1st and 2nd year med students on the DO subforum.

Sounds reasonable. It's possible that these individuals fostered connections through their own efforts.

If they had strong enough family connections to land an exceptional residency as a DO, it's unlikely to me that they would have needed to go DO in the first place. I could be wrong on this point - I understand the institutions (school and residency) don't completely overlap. I also have no personal experience with this, all I've got is the data.

By connections I don't mean family connections but rather connections in the field due to research and whatnot - leading to important letters and phone calls.

Do you believe that the frequency of DOs training in top tier IM programs has been constant over the past two decades?

It's hard to say, but even if there was a slight increase in the past few years, it doesn't mean that these programs will ever take a DO again or maybe will wait a long time before doing so again. So it could all be a wash at the end. It seems that the competitiveness of top tier IM has always been beyond the reach for DOs most of the time. Even the places that sometimes interview a DO here and there (Harvard/MGH) may be doing so as a courtesy, and then never rank the person because they're a DO (I specifically know of this happening).

 

[Kardio]

By connections I don't mean family connections but rather connections in the field due to research and whatnot - leading to important letters and phone calls.

Ah OK - I see that your "connections" comment was made with respect to OP's specific situation. It came across to me as a dismissal of my examples "cause they had magical behind-the-scenes and totally-unattainable powers."

It's hard to say, but even if there was a slight increase in the past few years, it doesn't mean that these programs will ever take a DO again or maybe will wait a long time before doing so again. So it could all be a wash at the end. It seems that the competitiveness of top tier IM has always been beyond the reach for DOs most of the time. Even the places that sometimes interview a DO here and there (Harvard/MGH) may be doing so as a courtesy, and then never rank the person because they're a DO (I specifically know of this happening).

The bolded sounds like more of a pessimistic perspective than a neutral one to me.

 

[sab3156]

The bolded sounds like more of a pessimistic perspective than a neutral one to me.

Note that I'm not even in agreement that there is an actual increase in top programs taking DOs. All I'm saying is that there are many programs that have sometimes taken a DO and then never do it again. UChicago is an example.

In any case, realism and pessimism can sometimes sound very much the same.

 

[Kardio]

Note that I'm not even in agreement that there is an actual increase in top programs taking DOs. All I'm saying is that there are many programs that have sometimes taken a DO and then never do it again. UChicago is an example.

Gotcha.

Just out of curiosity - if MGH, BWH, or BID had a DO pop up on their roster, which of these two would be your first instinct?

1. “woah, XYZCOM pumped out a rockstar this year”
2. “woah, MGH/BWH/BID has really taken a hit to their reputation”

 

[sab3156]

Gotcha.

Just out of curiosity - if MGH, BWH, or BID had a DO pop up on their roster, which of these two would be your first instinct?

1. “woah, XYZCOM pumped out a rockstar this year”
2. “woah, MGH/BWH/BID has really taken a hit to their reputation”

Neither.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Ah OK - I see that your "connections" comment was made with respect to OP's specific situation. It came across to me as a dismissal of my examples "cause they had magical behind-the-scenes and totally-unattainable powers."



The bolded sounds like more of a pessimistic perspective than a neutral one to me.

Kardio, Sab is the king of pessimism on these forums. If it were up to them no one would match ophtho unless they were a Harvard MD with a 290 Step 1 and/or their dad was the program director. All DOs are trash according to him/her and have no business applying or doing anything except scraping the bottom of the barrel at some crap community program in the middle of Arkansas stuck doing primary care the rest of their life. Just ignore their commentary

 

[sab3156]

Kardio, Sab is the king of pessimism on these forums. If it were up to them no one would match ophtho unless they were a Harvard MD with a 290 Step 1 and/or their dad was the program director. All DOs are trash according to him/her and have no business applying or doing anything except scraping the bottom of the barrel at some crap community program in the middle of Arkansas stuck doing primary care the rest of their life. Just ignore their commentary

I am just glad you deleted your BUSM post. Good call. Personal attacks do nothing but further discredit you.

@futurestripper, I think the TL;DR of this thread is that if you can do what @AlteredScale advised you, I think you will match pretty well. Just post in the IM subforum in the future to avoid the noise.

 

[Splenda88]

Low tier Uni like Miami or GW is not hard for someone with your scores. Mid tier is def doable but competitive and tippy top tier (MGH Duke UMich JHU) is probably harder than trying to match plastics or derm as a DO aka its close to impossible simply because its out of your control unfortunately despite all your clearly evident hard work and rockstar scores. Anythings possible of course like being one of the first DOs at one of those top programs but literally your only chance with that would be letters and connections somehow solely because of the two letters after your name and sadly thats the reality even if you had a 280 Step 1 honored every clerkship and 23 first authors

I would not call U Miami IM program low tier...

 

[Deecee2DO]

I would not call U Miami IM program low tier...

One would think it isnt lower tier but I would say its lower tier. Its like almost half DOs/IMGs. Mid tier uni IM doesn't have that kind of ratio

 

[Splenda88]

One would think it isnt lower tier but I would say its lower tier. Its like almost half DOs/IMGs. Mid tier uni IM doesn't have that kind of ratio

I only see 2 IMG in their PGY1 roster... I don't think having DOs makes it low tier. Maybe the PD is not like the old PDs who think DO are inferior.

∙ PGY1 — UM/JMH Internal Medicine Residency

www.jmhmedicine.com

 

[Deecee2DO]

I only see 2 IMG in their PGY1 roster... I don't think having DOs makes it low tier. Maybe the PD is not like the old PDs who think DO are inferior.

∙ PGY1 — UM/JMH Internal Medicine Residency

www.jmhmedicine.com

Maybe the PD isn't like the old PDs then which would be nice for once, however that would definitely be exception to the rule. My best guess is that if you compare that roster to other mid tiers they are pretty different. UMiami always has a good name for a lot of different fields but I just don't see UMiami being in that mid tier category for IM just my opinion. Bottom mid tier at absolute best

 

[Splenda88]

Maybe the PD isn't like the old PDs then which would be nice for once, however that would definitely be exception to the rule. My best guess is that if you compare that roster to other mid tiers they are pretty different. UMiami always has a good name for a lot of different fields but I just don't see UMiami being in that mid tier category for IM just my opinion. Bottom mid tier at absolute best.

I would agree it's a bottom mid tier program... I am very familiar with the program. It's a good program that does not attract top caliber applicants for some reason. Maybe having a lot of DOs on their roster scare away these applicants. Lol

 

[Deecee2DO]

I would agree it's a bottom mid tier program... I am very familiar with the program. It's a good program that does not attract top caliber applicants for some reason. Maybe having a lot of DOs on their roster scare away these applicants. Lol

Maybe lol definitely want to apply there myself

 

[Splenda88]

Maybe lol definitely want to apply there myself

If your step1 is in the 230s, you should be ok...

 

[fldoctorgirl]

It's a good program that does not attract top caliber applicants for some reason

It's known for drowning residents in scut and overworking them, so that could be why

 

[Deecee2DO]

It's known for drowning residents in scut and overworking them, so that could be why

Sounds horrible lol maybe I won't apply there then

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Sounds horrible lol maybe I won't apply there then

I probably still will cause I just wanna go back home but since I'm not interested in fellowship I'd likely rank community programs over them (I know, SDN blasphemy lol)

 

[Epilepsy365]

Im a 3rd year looking to go into IM preferably at an academic IM place in the northeast. I want to keep my options open for fellowship open (cards, GI, pulm/cc) and want to make it as easy as possible by going to the best program I can. NE is preferred but I'm willing to go as far as Chicago/Cleveland if it means I can get into a solid academic place.

Honored my core clerkships except FM and Surgery which were high pass.

Step 1: 253
Level 1: 678
No research at all, not much extracurriculars
Bottom 25% of my class (attendance was graded)

Assuming my Step 2 and Level 2 are in the same range what are the best IM programs I can expect interviews from if I apply very broadly?
Input from current residents or attendings would be much appreciated. Thanks guys!

which ones are you shooting for and I will tell you your chances?

But from my friends at mid tier academic IM programs on the West Coast, you are in the running for these places.

 

[Epilepsy365]

As for UMiami, you don’t want to be there in IM unless you speak Spanish. Your life is going to be miserable.

 

[Epilepsy365]

I probably still will cause I just wanna go back home but since I'm not interested in fellowship I'd likely rank community programs over them (I know, SDN blasphemy lol)

when you get to my stage, fit/location/coa/culture of the area trump evwrything. Don’t let places try to sell you on the faculty and the research. Faculties change as well as caliber of research but those mentioned factors remain permanent during your training.

I matched and ranked multiple lower tier academic places over mid tier institutions.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

when you get to my stage, fit/location/coa/culture of the area trump evwrything. Don’t let places try to sell you on the faculty and the research. Faculties change as well as caliber of research but those mentioned factors remain permanent during your training.

I matched and ranked multiple lower tier academic places over mid tier institutions.

Oh, I'm already there. Being close to my family is the #1 most important thing to me; for me, location trumps all other factors.

 

[futurestrip]

Thanks for your replies guys. I am aiming to apply to places in the NE preferably philly, NYC, DC. I would be open to venturing out farther than this but would like to at least be in a decent sized city. Programs that I'm interested in are Temple, TJU, Monte, GW, GU, and basically any low-mid tier academic place. I understand that going to a big shot place is likely out of the question and I'm fine with that. I would just like to have the option of fellowship and live in a nice city.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Thanks for your replies guys. I am aiming to apply to places in the NE preferably philly, NYC, DC. I would be open to venturing out farther than this but would like to at least be in a decent sized city. Programs that I'm interested in are Temple, TJU, Monte, GW, GU, and basically any low-mid tier academic place. I understand that going to a big shot place is likely out of the question and I'm fine with that. I would just like to have the option of fellowship and live in a nice city.

You are competitive for all of them. IM only cares about Step 1 as the main filter. Make sure you pass everything from here on the first go, get great letters, and do some research if you can. You will do great!

 

[InternistDO]

Thanks for your replies guys. I am aiming to apply to places in the NE preferably philly, NYC, DC. I would be open to venturing out farther than this but would like to at least be in a decent sized city. Programs that I'm interested in are Temple, TJU, Monte, GW, GU, and basically any low-mid tier academic place. I understand that going to a big shot place is likely out of the question and I'm fine with that. I would just like to have the option of fellowship and live in a nice city.

Obviously we won't know until tomorrow how it all pans out, but my friends and I have scores from the high 230s to the high 240s and between us we got interviews at all but one of those places for IM. Also on the list were some similarly tiered academic programs outside the Northeast (basically everywhere but California), plus the "good" community programs in the NE like Sinai St Lukes and Einstein Philly. You should be totally fine as long as you apply broadly and make sure to include safeties just in case.


(Though just so you know, Jefferson in Philly only interviews DOs for the primary care track, not categorical.)

 

[futurestrip]

Obviously we won't know until tomorrow how it all pans out, but my friends and I have scores from the high 230s to the high 240s and between us we got interviews at all but one of those places for IM. Also on the list were some similarly tiered academic programs outside the Northeast (basically everywhere but California), plus the "good" community programs in the NE like Sinai St Lukes and Einstein Philly. You should be totally fine as long as you apply broadly and make sure to include safeties just in case.


(Though just so you know, Jefferson in Philly only interviews DOs for the primary care track, not categorical.)

Good luck tomorrow I hope you get your #1. Thats good to hear. Also I know theres a categorical DO at TJU from Touro thats a pgy3 but I think he's the only one in all 3 years.

 

[InternistDO]

Good luck tomorrow I hope you get your #1. Thats good to hear. Also I know theres a categorical DO at TJU from Touro thats a pgy3 but I think he's the only one in all 3 years.

He’s primary care, I spoke to him. But he’s doing a chief year and then heme/onc, I believe, so it’s not like you’re locked in to only general IM.

 

[Kardio]

He’s primary care, I spoke to him. But he’s doing a chief year and then heme/onc, I believe, so it’s not like you’re locked in to only general IM.

What are the tangible differences between the PC v.s. Categorical tracks at programs like that?

Also - good luck today!

 

[AlteredScale]

What are the tangible differences between the PC v.s. Categorical tracks at programs like that?

It's variable but their curriculum is usually more time spent in a primary care settings like outpatient clinic, sometimes working in a smaller or rural hospital for our elective time instead of doing subspecialty elective, also the didactic curriculum is a lot of times tailored to be more focused on PC topics like preventative medicine.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

It's variable but their curriculum is usually more time spent in a primary care settings like outpatient clinic, sometimes working in a smaller or rural hospital for our elective time instead of doing subspecialty elective, also the didactic curriculum is a lot of times tailored to be more focused on PC topics like preventative medicine.

Does this make you less competitive when applying to fellowships?

 

[Splenda88]

As for UMiami, you don’t want to be there in IM unless you speak Spanish. Your life is going to be miserable.

That is correct...

 

[PC89]

I matched at a Mid tier institution in the NE this match with a 23x step 1 and a high 25x step 2. A lot came down to my letters and research after the board cutoffs.

 

[chromaticscale]

You can definitely get into an academic program as a DO student. Likely not the top tier ones e.g. MGH, Columbia, NYU but doesn't hurt to apply. When you get to applying to programs, research via FREIDA as it gives a rough breakdown of their residents MD/DO composition and look at the individual program's resident roster.

More importantly, continue to do well on your clinical rotations during 3rd and 4th year (high pass or honoring) and don't forget about doing well on Step 2 CK and making sure you take it early enough so that score gets into the application.

 

[futurestrip]

Obviously we won't know until tomorrow how it all pans out, but my friends and I have scores from the high 230s to the high 240s and between us we got interviews at all but one of those places for IM. Also on the list were some similarly tiered academic programs outside the Northeast (basically everywhere but California), plus the "good" community programs in the NE like Sinai St Lukes and Einstein Philly. You should be totally fine as long as you apply broadly and make sure to include safeties just in case.


(Though just so you know, Jefferson in Philly only interviews DOs for the primary care track, not categorical.)

what was the place you didn’t get an interview if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[InternistDO]

what was the place you didn’t get an interview if you don’t mind me asking?

No one in my class got an interview at Montefiore out of the programs you listed, though I know they do take DOs every so often so idk why specifically.