Can I get boarded in neuropsych with a PP post doc?

[haloeffectx]

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Basically the title. I was offered a neuropsych PP post doc. There is one board certified neuropsychologist working there who would supervise me, and four other early career neuropsychs looking to be boarded. The pay and location are good and I have some family issues, so I’m geographically limited. Would I still be able to get boarded by accepting this position?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Theoretically yes, but more of the onus will fall onto you to demonstrate that your experience met all requirements. You'll also want to look at said requirements to be sure the postdoc will meet them. If the target organization is AACN/ABPP, the specialty requirements are broadly described here: Specialty Specific Requirements

And the document library (here: Document Library) has the application itself, which further specifies things.

I suspect that for a private practice setting, the most key parts would be demonstrating that the fellowship reflects "a structured and sequenced set of...didactic experiences" and that it puts "the learning needs of the candidate ahead of the operational needs of the program."

 

[WisNeuro]

In addition to AA, document everything, and I imagine you will likely need additional didactic experiences outside of the practice (e.g., do some CE workshops at INS/AACN). I generally advise against such postdocs as it makes your road ahead harder, but if you do, I would recommend contacting people at ABPP and asking what you can do along the way to make the boarding process easier.

 

[haloeffectx]

Would it be a better option to work this next year and try to get licensed then apply again next year? Do post docs take applicants that have been out of internship for a year?

 

[WisNeuro]

Would it be a better option to work this next year and try to get licensed then apply again next year? Do post docs take applicants that have been out of internship for a year?

Really depends on your situation and end goal. If board certification is important (and nowadays I believe it is very much so) I'd recommend looking at the documents that AA linked to. Documenting the didactic experiences will definitely be your biggest hurdle, and those documents spell out the content areas that you'd need to provide evidence of having met when going up against credential review. You could also contact the specialty board/AACN to discuss with one of the officers. They're usually more than happy to talk to trainees about the process.

 

[PsyDr]

Keep in mind that the HCG will be updated in the near future.

 

[WisNeuro]

Keep in mind that the HCG will be updated in the near future.

About to be the MCG.

 

[WisNeuro]

Keep in mind that the HCG will be updated in the near future.

I expect that the didactic requirements will still be there, though they will also likely have to document more specific multicultural/diversity/inclusion training with their didactics heading forward.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Would it be a better option to work this next year and try to get licensed then apply again next year? Do post docs take applicants that have been out of internship for a year?

If you think the private practice seems structured in a way to be able to offer the opportunities you'll need for board certification, starting fellowship now is probably the best bet. Especially if you don't expect your geographical limitations to change within the next year and there aren't many formal fellowships near you. At least IMO.

If not, and if you actually have the ability to do so, waiting a year could be worthwhile. Having a one-year "gap" during which you're working may initially raise some eyebrows, but if you're able to discuss things you've done during the interim (e.g., getting licensed, receiving general clinical supervision, attending conferences and various other neuro-focused didactics, possibly even going through the NAN online neuroanatomy course or something similar, participating in research if possible, etc.), I would think many concerns would be attenuated. Particularly if you feel you would've been competitive for fellowships this year if you'd been able to apply/apply more broadly.

 

[PsyDr]

I expect that the didactic requirements will still be there, though they will also likely have to document more specific multicultural/diversity/inclusion training with their didactics heading forward.

Based upon the recent conference topics and inter-division meetings, I expect some merging with rehab.

 

[szymk1sm]

APPCN recently started a Multisite Didactic Initiative (MDI) Sponsored Lecture series... this may be a useful resource for you to obtain (some) didactics. These are generally announced on the ANST and npsych list servs.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Based upon the recent conference topics and inter-division meetings, I expect some merging with rehab.

Curious to know more about this. I know that a couple of years (?) ago, a lot of rehab psychs took issue with neuropsych trying to subsume neurorehab in their official subspeciality definition and pushed back a lot.

 

[PsyDr]

Curious to know more about this. I know that a couple of years (?) ago, a lot of rehab psychs took issue with neuropsych trying to subsume neurorehab in their official subspeciality definition and pushed back a lot.

It's just a guess.

1) Rehab either had, or is having, a meeting to create their own training guidelines.
2) Neuro is redefining the HCG.
3) NAN and other neuro conferences have rehab as a major topic.
4) There have been some meetings between neuro and rehab orgs.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's just a guess.

1) Rehab either had, or is having, a meeting to create their own training guidelines.
2) Neuro is redefining the HCG.
3) NAN and other neuro conferences have rehab as a major topic.
4) There have been some meetings between neuro and rehab orgs.

Haven't heard as much about the rehab integration, but wouldn't be surprised. But, there is a lot of talk about the DEI stuff and newer testing methods/telehealth. And, judging by the breakdown of delegates, the former will be a pretty big revision.

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

Based off a former colleagues experience, yes. They did an internship and post-doc in a PP, neither APA or APPIC, and is now ABPP.

 

[WisNeuro]

Based off a former colleagues experience, yes. They did an internship and post-doc in a PP, neither APA or APPIC, and is now ABPP.

If they weren't grandfathered in, this would be highly unusual according to credential review and HCG. While still technically possible, as they will look at exceptions, I would always recommend people not make things harder on themselves when easy alternatives exist.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It's just a guess.

1) Rehab either had, or is having, a meeting to create their own training guidelines.
2) Neuro is redefining the HCG.
3) NAN and other neuro conferences have rehab as a major topic.
4) There have been some meetings between neuro and rehab orgs.

Rehab had their equivalent of the Houston Conference (Baltimore Conference) a few years ago (2017?). Rehab also has our sub speciality renewal under review at the moment, including a lot of discussion about what makes rehab unique as a speciality. We know we have a lot of shared interest with neuro, of course, but rehab is also very protective of what we have uniquely.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Rehab had their equivalent of the Houston Conference (Baltimore Conference) a few years ago (2017?). Rehab also has our sub speciality renewal under review at the moment, including a lot of discussion about what makes rehab unique as a speciality. We know we have a lot of shared interest with neuro, of course, but rehab is also very protective of what we have uniquely.

I believe the Baltimore Conference was in 2011, with this 2012 publication (pdf) outlining the guidelines. This publication is the rehab psych version of the Houston Guidelines. This laid the framework for RP training for the past decade or so.

I previously was very involved in training and competency stuff at both the state and national levels, though it's been a few years since then...so anyone more in the know, please feel free to jump in and add/update/clarify, etc.

Where this gets into the weeds is how RP & NP overlap, and how these subspecialties address competencies and core areas of training. It's been a largely cooperative relationship between rehab and neuro over the decades, so it'll be interesting to see how this next iteration of differences and similarities are viewed in regard to assessment. A very dumbed down explanation I've adopted from a former mentor is "neuropsych is the what (eval / dx) and rehab psych is what now (assess and intervention)." Neuropsych often does a lot of differential dx while rehab psych tends to have an idea about dx, but need more info about what specific areas need to be targeted for intervention.

There is an alphabet soup of orgs and people involved in figuring out how specialities and subspecialties fit within psychology, but from my understanding the APA has the Commission for the Recognition of Specialities and Subspecialties in Professional Psychology (CRSSPP). This commission reports to the APA board, which oversees all of the divisions of psych, including D22 and D40. There are other orgs that handle diff aspects of training and evaluation (ASPPB for instance, which oversees the EPPP), but I

There is actually a renewal petition from RP that is currently being reviewed (accepting comments until 03/09/22), which includes the Baltimore Guidelines and a bunch of other things. This was put together by the Rehabilitation Psychology Speciality Council (RPSC), which is made up of 5 orgs: APA Div 22, American Board of Rehab Psych (ABRP), Foundation of Rehab Psych (FRP), Council of Rehab Psych Postdoc Training Programs (CRPPTP), and Academy of Rehabilitation Psychology (ARP). See...very much into the weeds of how the sausage is made.

For those who are curious what each group within the RPSC does, here is the description from the renewal petition.

The five member organizations work closely together as part of the Specialty Council, and each has a specialized area of focus. CRPPTP focuses within the realm of students and postdoctoral training programs. Division 22 focuses within the realm of professional psychology, both science and practice. ABRP focuses within the realm of practitioner credentialing. ARP focuses within the realm of supporting specialization and board certification through recruitment and education, including continuing professional development and the annual Rehabilitation Psychology Conference (now in its 24 th year). FRP provides a philanthropic base for supporting education and research in Rehabilitation Psychology.

All clear, right?

I think relevant to this discussion is how the RPSC talks about how Rehabilitation Psych is distinct from Neuropsych in their renewal application (which can be found on the CRSSPP page):

Clinical Neuropsychology and Rehabilitation Psychology use similar assessment and intervention techniques to work with persons with central nervous system impairments. However, Clinical Neuropsychology uses these assessment techniques to focus on assessment and diagnosis of central nervous system dysfunction (although there has been increasing attention to using data to inform treatment recommendations), whereas Rehabilitation Psychology has historically focused on both measurement and treatment of impairment due to central nervous system dysfunction, and ways in which to use information about cognitive strengths and impairments to increase social role participation, including vocational, educational, and recreational participation. Rehabilitation psychologists are distinct in their assessment and integration of positive cognitive abilities (such as problem-solving skills) as well as positive personality and emotional factors, such as coping skills, resilience, hopefulness, and positive adaptation to disability (Bertisch, Rath, Long, Ashman, & Rashid, 2014). In addition, rehabilitation psychologists are invested in the utilization of test data towards the development of a unified and multidisciplinary treatment plan to expedite the accommodation to the disability and improvements in functioning.

Anyhow...I believe this is where the fight over neuropsych assessment will take place, at least in regard to who "approves" of the guidelines for each sub-speciality. If anyone has different information or a different understanding, please feel free to share.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If they weren't grandfathered in, this would be highly unusual according to credential review and HCG. While still technically possible, as they will look at exceptions, I would always recommend people not make things harder on themselves when easy alternatives exist.

Agreed. I've never heard of someone getting boarded w/o APA acred (or APPIC member internship site)...the latter requiring a lot more hoops to even be approved to pursue boarding.

 

[R. Matey]

If they weren't grandfathered in, this would be highly unusual according to credential review and HCG. While still technically possible, as they will look at exceptions, I would always recommend people not make things harder on themselves when easy alternatives exist.

Easier than a pursuing non-accredited internship and postdoc, you mean? My read is that if you don't plan on becoming a neuropsychologist from graduate school, you're basically locked out of the speciality.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Easier than a pursuing non-accredited internship and postdoc, you mean? My read is that if you don't plan on becoming a neuropsychologist from graduate school, you're basically locked out of the speciality.

The Houston Guidelines touch on this, there are graphs that show different mixes of training from the various levels of training: classes, internship, fellowship, etc. In practical terms...I'd say the minimum is APA-acred program and APA-acred internship with a solid handle on assessment. Tracks and Concentrations are largely for marketing....but working with a mentor who has a strong assessment background and is fellowship trained is what I'd recommended.

While foundational training in things like neuroanatomy and neurophysiology during grad school would be preferred, there is *some* flexibility in training...at least that is how I interpret things. I'm out of the loop in regard to internship and fellowship these days, so I'll defer to others closer to those areas, but traditionally I've seen a mix of backgrounds that get into fellowship programs.

 

[R. Matey]

The Houston Guidelines touch on this, there are graphs that show different mixes of training from the various levels of training: classes, internship, fellowship, etc. In practical terms...I'd say the minimum is APA-acred program and APA-acred internship with a solid handle on assessment. Tracks and Concentrations are largely for marketing....but working with a mentor who has a strong assessment background and is fellowship trained is what I'd recommended.

While foundational training in things like neuroanatomy and neurophysiology during grad school would be preferred, there is *some* flexibility in training...at least that is how I interpret things. I'm out of the loop in regard to internship and fellowship these days, so I'll defer to others closer to those areas, but traditionally I've seen a mix of backgrounds that get into fellowship programs.

Right, I guess what I mean is that the competition within the speciality sort've creates a track that fellowship directors tend to look for. It's true in a lot of competitive specialities, like becoming a Supreme Court Justice, for instance.

That said, it's nice to know this issue is being considered by some of the specialty's gatekeepers.

 

[WisNeuro]

Easier than a pursuing non-accredited internship and postdoc, you mean? My read is that if you don't plan on becoming a neuropsychologist from graduate school, you're basically locked out of the speciality.

You can back load your training, and still do it fairly easily. Honestly, the 2 year postdoc is by far the key factor. It has definitely gotten more competitive, but there are also a lot more fellowships available than there were years ago. But, that competitiveness is somewhat inflated as there are many applications which are just not competitive. If you decided after you finished internship that you want to go to an APPCN postdoc, with minimal neuro experience, you ain't going to make it. You can still do it with, you just have to seek out a lot of experiences on your own and document things very well. And, the lack of hardcore didactics that you'd get in a training program would also likely put you at a disadvantage for the exam and oral boards.

 

[R. Matey]

You can back load your training, and still do it fairly easily. Honestly, the 2 year postdoc is by far the key factor. It has definitely gotten more competitive, but there are also a lot more fellowships available than there were years ago. But, that competitiveness is somewhat inflated as there are many applications which are just not competitive. If you decided after you finished internship that you want to go to an APPCN postdoc, with minimal neuro experience, you ain't going to make it. You can still do it with, you just have to seek out a lot of experiences on your own and document things very well. And, the lack of hardcore didactics that you'd get in a training program would also likely put you at a disadvantage for the exam and oral boards.

Huh, interesting. I didn't consider the chaff factor, but that makes sense.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I believe the Baltimore Conference was in 2011, with this 2012 publication (pdf) outlining the guidelines. This publication is the rehab psych version of the Houston Guidelines. This laid the framework for RP training for the past decade or so.

I previously was very involved in training and competency stuff at both the state and national levels, though it's been a few years since then...so anyone more in the know, please feel free to jump in and add/update/clarify, etc.

Where this gets into the weeds is how RP & NP overlap, and how these subspecialties address competencies and core areas of training. It's been a largely cooperative relationship between rehab and neuro over the decades, so it'll be interesting to see how this next iteration of differences and similarities are viewed in regard to assessment. A very dumbed down explanation I've adopted from a former mentor is "neuropsych is the what (eval / dx) and rehab psych is what now (assess and intervention)." Neuropsych often does a lot of differential dx while rehab psych tends to have an idea about dx, but need more info about what specific areas need to be targeted for intervention.

There is an alphabet soup of orgs and people involved in figuring out how specialities and subspecialties fit within psychology, but from my understanding the APA has the Commission for the Recognition of Specialities and Subspecialties in Professional Psychology (CRSSPP). This commission reports to the APA board, which oversees all of the divisions of psych, including D22 and D40. There are other orgs that handle diff aspects of training and evaluation (ASPPB for instance, which oversees the EPPP), but I

There is actually a renewal petition from RP that is currently being reviewed (accepting comments until 03/09/22), which includes the Baltimore Guidelines and a bunch of other things. This was put together by the Rehabilitation Psychology Speciality Council (RPSC), which is made up of 5 orgs: APA Div 22, American Board of Rehab Psych (ABRP), Foundation of Rehab Psych (FRP), Council of Rehab Psych Postdoc Training Programs (CRPPTP), and Academy of Rehabilitation Psychology (ARP). See...very much into the weeds of how the sausage is made.

For those who are curious what each group within the RPSC does, here is the description from the renewal petition.



All clear, right?

I think relevant to this discussion is how the RPSC talks about how Rehabilitation Psych is distinct from Neuropsych in their renewal application (which can be found on the CRSSPP page):



Anyhow...I believe this is where the fight over neuropsych assessment will take place, at least in regard to who "approves" of the guidelines for each sub-speciality. If anyone has different information or a different understanding, please feel free to share.

Excellent summary! I also want to add that I think an important, distinct part of rehab is that it examines the psychosocial nature of disability and the individual effects of living in an environment (physical, attitudinal, systemic, etc) that really assumes that someone is non-disabled.

As an aside, I helped draft part of the RP CRSSPP renewal application--it was interesting to think about what makes rehab psychology unique and "special" and how we compliment other fields and psychology specialties,