Can I Make Decent Money As a LPC or MFT...

[Blankie]

..in private practice? I have another thread going on here where I explain that I am disallusioned with practicing in the school districts as their employee. In addition, I would like to do therapy and work with adults. I can't do any of this as a school psych, and I don't want to be anybody's employee. I am trying to contract with some districts in my area now to provide services as an independent contractor, but ultimately it would probably be best if I start my own private practice as a therapist because of the fact that I really want nothing to do with schools. As a licensed LPC or MFT , I would keep my school psychology certification current and do independent psycho-educational evaluations for parents. Again, this will allow me to have nothing to do with school districts-just parents.

2nd question: Which license us better? LPC or MFT?

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[Blankie]

I want to point out that I won't be getting a whole new degree. I already have a MA in educational psychology that I needed in order to become a school psych. I would just take the additional classes needed to obtain licensure as a LPC or MFT.

 

[PsyDr]

Please refer to the lpc forum.

 

[wtfook]

..in private practice? I have another thread going on here where I explain that I am disallusioned with practicing in the school districts as their employee. In addition, I would like to do therapy and work with adults. I can't do any of this as a school psych, and I don't want to be anybody's employee. I am trying to contract with some districts in my area now to provide services as an independent contractor, but ultimately it would probably be best if I start my own private practice as a therapist because of the fact that I really want nothing to do with schools. As a licensed LPC or MFT , I would keep my school psychology certification current and do independent psycho-educational evaluations for parents. Again, this will allow me to have nothing to do with school districts-just parents.

2nd question: Which license us better? LPC or MFT?

I would say the answer to your 2nd question would lie in which licensure saves you the most class time. Since you may have to take some classes to supplement your current master's and qualify for licensure, it might be financially prudent and time saving to go with the one that requires the least amount of extra work. Alternatively, an LPC is a more general licensure that is for counselors where as an MFT stands for marriage and family therapy and thus usually refers to married couples and families. While many MFTs I know do work with individuals, their main interest and focus is in systems work. You could market yourself as exclusively for couples only and that would keep you with adults. Or I guess you could work with families (which generally would include children) since it'd be work with children that is independent of the school system.

 

[MAClinician]

I want to point out that I won't be getting a whole new degree. I already have a MA in educational psychology that I needed in order to become a school psych. I would just take the additional classes needed to obtain licensure as a LPC or MFT.

Have you actually looked at what the licensing boards in your state require in order to get licensed as LPC or MFT? I know MFT license is very particular about what classes and you have to be supervised by an approved MFT supervisor in my state. Some states may require a degree in mental health counseling as opposed to school psych. What you plan to do and what the state requires may be 2 very different things. Also be aware that most states require so many hours of post-masters or post-education experience before you get licensed at the independent level. That means you have to be supervised by someone, I.e. You WILL have a boss and you WILL be someone's employee. The average post education hours is about 2 years. And even once licensed it takes some time to get on insurance panels (if you decide to accept insurance) or build up referrals and your practice. Making sure you understand these issues before jumping into something would be very important.

 

[Blankie]

Have you actually looked at what the licensing boards in your state require in order to get licensed as LPC or MFT? I know MFT license is very particular about what classes and you have to be supervised by an approved MFT supervisor in my state. Some states may require a degree in mental health counseling as opposed to school psych. What you plan to do and what the state requires may be 2 very different things. Also be aware that most states require so many hours of post-masters or post-education experience before you get licensed at the independent level. That means you have to be supervised by someone, I.e. You WILL have a boss and you WILL be someone's employee. The average post education hours is about 2 years. And even once licensed it takes some time to get on insurance panels (if you decide to accept insurance) or build up referrals and your practice. Making sure you understand these issues before jumping into something would be very important.

Yes, I understand that I will have a supervisor for my post education experience. I had a couple of supervisors for my school psych fieldwork.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd also look into licensing laws and scope of practice RE: psychoeducational evaluations. It may be something that a masters-level individual is technically allowed to do when working for a school, but not when in independent practice.

But to answer your question--yes, it's certainly possible. Private practice can be much more about business savvy and skills than provision of clinical services or degree type. Although as others have mentioned, check the laws for your state regarding independent practice. My understanding is that an LCSW tends to have the most flexibility in this regard.

 

[jheda]

..in private practice? I have another thread going on here where I explain that I am disallusioned with practicing in the school districts as their employee. In addition, I would like to do therapy and work with adults. I can't do any of this as a school psych, and I don't want to be anybody's employee. I am trying to contract with some districts in my area now to provide services as an independent contractor, but ultimately it would probably be best if I start my own private practice as a therapist because of the fact that I really want nothing to do with schools. As a licensed LPC or MFT , I would keep my school psychology certification current and do independent psycho-educational evaluations for parents. Again, this will allow me to have nothing to do with school districts-just parents.

2nd question: Which license us better? LPC or MFT?

Both Licenses are really weak. There are no jobs that require either degree. You will not likely find a job as an MFT or LPC. In private practice, you will not have retirement, health insurance, sick pay nor any other benefit. When a person has an emotional problem, they don't say, "take me to see an MFT or LPC".
70% of all mental health services in the U.S. is provided by LCSWs.

 

[jheda]

In order to make a substantial income in private practice psychotherapy, you must have multiple streams of income.
This may include training others. My firm trains substance abuse counselors, clinicians and educators along with prison staff in Anger Management/Emotional Intelligence Facilitation. We are largest provider of anger management in the nation. We are paid $1500 per person for a three-day Certification. If you train 10 persons at this rate you earn $15,000 for three days.

These same trainees will need to buy clients workbooks from me indefinitely if they use this model. The client workbooks are $30 each. This providers yet another stream of passive income.
If you provide anger management groups for ten persons at $50 per person per group, you will receive $500 per group/hour.

Private practice is a business and Graduate School does not offer training for success.

 

[Grenth]

Both Licenses are really weak. There are no jobs that require either degree. You will not likely find a job as an MFT or LPC. In private practice, you will not have retirement, health insurance, sick pay nor any other benefit. When a person has an emotional problem, they don't say, "take me to see an MFT or LPC".
70% of all mental health services in the U.S. is provided by LCSWs.

Why would say these licenses are weak other than "When a person has an emotional problem, they don't say, "take me to see an MFT or LPC"". I've never known someone to ask for an LCSW in that scenario either it's usually a request for a "doctor", "therapist", or "counselor".

A quick look at your posts shows you appear biased against LPCs and MFTs. For example, in another thread, you said there are no theories for MFTs or LPCs which is untrue since it is based on systems theory and that MFT and LPCs are "bogus" which is bizarre. This was also a strange thing to say "Neither the MFT nor the LPC are really professions with a body of knowledge, academicians, scholars or researchers.". MFTs have their own journals, conferences, academics, and even offer research focused PhDs in MFT, so I'm not sure what you are saying.

Your attitude is unfortunate because mid-level practitioners should support one another as they often work together doing basically the same things. LCSWs are great, but so are any other properly trained and licensed mental health practitioners.

 

[jheda]

Why would say these licenses are weak other than "When a person has an emotional problem, they don't say, "take me to see an MFT or LPC"". I've never known someone to ask for an LCSW in that scenario either it's usually a request for a "doctor", "therapist", or "counselor".

A quick look at your posts shows you appear biased against LPCs and MFTs. For example, in another thread, you said there are no theories for MFTs or LPCs which is untrue since it is based on systems theory and that MFT and LPCs are "bogus" which is bizarre. This was also a strange thing to say "Neither the MFT nor the LPC are really professions with a body of knowledge, academicians, scholars or researchers.". MFTs have their own journals, conferences, academics, and even offer research focused PhDs in MFT, so I'm not sure what you are saying.

Your attitude is unfortunate because mid-level practitioners should support one another as they often work together doing basically the same things. LCSWs are great, but so are any other properly trained and licensed mental health practitioners.

Grenth,
In 1976, I returned to Los Angeles after completing a 27 month MSW program (Smith College School for Social Work). This program includes two 8 and half month clinical internships. My second internship was at Jacobi Hospital in Brooklyn which is a teaching hospital for Albert Einstein School of Medicine. During my time at Einstein, I was invited to come to Harvard University School of Medicine for a two year Post Graduate Fellowship in Child and Adolescent Psychotherapy. After completing this training, I was appointed Director of Admissions for the Mansville School and Residence at Harvard where I remained for four years.

Once I arrived back in Los Angeles, I applied to take the MFT license exam. (at that time it was called MFCC which meant Marriage, Family and Child Counseling), I was denied based on the fact that I had not taken the specific training listed for this license. I filled a lawsuit against the licensing board. The Legal Defense Fund for The National Association of Social Workers asked permission to take over the case and fill as a Class Action Lawsuit on behalf of other Social Workers.

The Governor, Jerry Brown, instructed the Attorney General's office to settle the case out of court. Therefore, the Board agreed that any Social Worker, Psychologist or Psychiatrist could take the exam without any additional training or, advertise that they can provide Marriage Counseling without the MFT license. The Governor also appointed me to serve two terms on The California Board of Behavioral Science. As Chair of the Examination Committee, I actually wrote the exam for MFTs.

Marriage and Family Therapy has been provided by Social Workers since the 1800s.

Below is a simple explanation of what has happened to psychologists since the advent of MFTs and LPCs:

"The highest estimate of need for psychologists per capita (i.e., 35–40 psychologists per 100,000 population estimated by VandenBos, DeLeon, and Belar (1991)) had been exceeded by the mid-1990s in many jurisdictions (Robiner & Crew, 2000). According to the combined estimates for psychology and school psychology reported by Duffy et al. (2004), by 2003, there were 42.5 psychologists per 100,000 civilians. The economic implications of an oversupply are significant. For example, salaries of psychologists have been lower than those reported by Ph.D. recipients in other science and engineering fields. Regional saturation of psychologists seems to adversely influence psychologists' earnings (Pingitore, Scheffler, Sentell, Haley, & Schwalm, 2001)".

At 78, I have done exceptionally well in full-time private practice both financially and professionally. I have decided to help new clinicians by sharing my experience and knowledge. Sometimes facts are painful.

 

[Grenth]

Grenth,
In 1976, I returned to Los Angeles after completing a 27 month MSW program (Smith College School for Social Work). This program includes two 8 and half month clinical internships. My second internship was at Jacobi Hospital in Brooklyn which is a teaching hospital for Albert Einstein School of Medicine. During my time at Einstein, I was invited to come to Harvard University School of Medicine for a two year Post Graduate Fellowship in Child and Adolescent Psychotherapy. After completing this training, I was appointed Director of Admissions for the Mansville School and Residence at Harvard where I remained for four years.

Once I arrived back in Los Angeles, I applied to take the MFT license exam. (at that time it was called MFCC which meant Marriage, Family and Child Counseling), I was denied based on the fact that I had not taken the specific training listed for this license. I filled a lawsuit against the licensing board. The Legal Defense Fund for The National Association of Social Workers asked permission to take over the case and fill as a Class Action Lawsuit on behalf of other Social Workers.

The Governor, Jerry Brown, instructed the Attorney General's office to settle the case out of court. Therefore, the Board agreed that any Social Worker, Psychologist or Psychiatrist could take the exam without any additional training or, advertise that they can provide Marriage Counseling without the MFT license. The Governor also appointed me to serve two terms on The California Board of Behavioral Science. As Chair of the Examination Committee, I actually wrote the exam for MFTs.

Marriage and Family Therapy has been provided by Social Workers since the 1800s.

Below is a simple explanation of what has happened to psychologists since the advent of MFTs and LPCs:

"The highest estimate of need for psychologists per capita (i.e., 35–40 psychologists per 100,000 population estimated by VandenBos, DeLeon, and Belar (1991)) had been exceeded by the mid-1990s in many jurisdictions (Robiner & Crew, 2000). According to the combined estimates for psychology and school psychology reported by Duffy et al. (2004), by 2003, there were 42.5 psychologists per 100,000 civilians. The economic implications of an oversupply are significant. For example, salaries of psychologists have been lower than those reported by Ph.D. recipients in other science and engineering fields. Regional saturation of psychologists seems to adversely influence psychologists' earnings (Pingitore, Scheffler, Sentell, Haley, & Schwalm, 2001)".

At 78, I have done exceptionally well in full-time private practice both financially and professionally. I have decided to help new clinicians by sharing my experience and knowledge. Sometimes facts are painful.

This is all very helpful if I had said "Social workers can't provide MFT work", but I didn't because of course they can. What I said was there is no sense in you dismissing MFTS and LPCs/LMHCs when they can do all the same things as LCSWs in nearly every case. You responded to things I never said to further what appears to be your agenda against any provider except LCSWs.

Your story is a nice historical California anecdote, but there's a whole modern country out there where mid-levels are working together doing the same things and don't appreciate being called "bogus" or "not really professions with a body of knowledge" by an individual stuck in the past where the little sub-field distinctions mattered a lot more.

 

[wtfook]

Both Licenses are really weak. There are no jobs that require either degree. You will not likely find a job as an MFT or LPC. In private practice, you will not have retirement, health insurance, sick pay nor any other benefit. When a person has an emotional problem, they don't say, "take me to see an MFT or LPC".
70% of all mental health services in the U.S. is provided by LCSWs.

I know that California might have very odd licensure laws. A friend who CURRENTLY completed an MFT and who is interested in doing MFT work in Cali has said MFT work in Cali is notoriously difficult and that MFT and LPC licensure is very hard. This is in 2016 and not 1976...It's been 40 years since you had your master's coursework. I can only assume things have changed, not just in California but in the rest of the country. At least as a recent master's graduate doing LPC work in PA, nearly all full time job listings I looked at had the requirement of either 4 years experience plus a master's in social work or counseling or licensure as an LPC or LCSW. Fee-for-service positions required a master's degree and licensure eligibility. LCSW's are great but an LPC is also great. There were also job postings that required ONLY LPCs or LCSWs.

Of course, PA is on the other side of the country from CA. That means for the OP who asked the question, whether or not to gain licensure and what kind depends on where he/she lives and what the market is in that state. It could be very likely that in California, the job market for therapists and counselors is what you say. However, it seems like framing the job market for master's level therapists in the entire country based on your experiences with the field back in the 70s in one city in one state might be overshooting things. Perhaps you have more information about what job requirements are in the rest of the country as well?

 

[Blankie]

I know that California might have very odd licensure laws. A friend who CURRENTLY completed an MFT and who is interested in doing MFT work in Cali has said MFT work in Cali is notoriously difficult and that MFT and LPC licensure is very hard. This is in 2016 and not 1976...It's been 40 years since you had your master's coursework. I can only assume things have changed, not just in California but in the rest of the country. At least as a recent master's graduate doing LPC work in PA, nearly all full time job listings I looked at had the requirement of either 4 years experience plus a master's in social work or counseling or licensure as an LPC or LCSW. Fee-for-service positions required a master's degree and licensure eligibility. LCSW's are great but an LPC is also great. There were also job postings that required ONLY LPCs or LCSWs.

Of course, PA is on the other side of the country from CA. That means for the OP who asked the question, whether or not to gain licensure and what kind depends on where he/she lives and what the market is in that state. It could be very likely that in California, the job market for therapists and counselors is what you say. However, it seems like framing the job market for master's level therapists in the entire country based on your experiences with the field back in the 70s in one city in one state might be overshooting things. Perhaps you have more information about what job requirements are in the rest of the country as well?

I'm the OP and I live in Arizona.

 

[smalltownpsych]

https://www.indeed.com/q-Licensed-Professional-Counselor-l-Phoenix,-AZ-jobs.html
Quick glance at a few of these jobs provides a range of 40k to 70k depending on licensure and experience.