Can my program not give me 3 weeks of vacation time?

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gutonc said:
Cite your source or GTFO.
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Where do I get that most programs give 12 days?
From observation, residency, countless interviews, knowing countless residents in countless programs.
 
Rehab_dr said:
First of all, don't be so condescending to other specialties. What is your problem with PMR? Coming from a specialty like Endo yourself, I wouldn't consider yourself so high and mighty given that it's one of the least competitive specialties out there, where depts have to look to the ends of the earth for fellows.

Second, most specialties are fine with it. I have never heard of any program giving a resident a hard time over taking a sick day. Sick days are there to be used. And no, you are incorrect - ACGME allows 6! not 4 weeks to be missed every year without having to do extra training.

Learn to be polite and gracious when responding to others' opinions. That's what professional people do. It seems you have an issue with everyone, goodness.
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i wasn't being condensing to other specialties...to you maybe for not being able to comprehend what you read, but no... PM&R, as with with other specialties that don't have the significant call schedules such as surgery, surgery subspecialties, and mid size and smaller IM programs that have a greater dependency on their residents, may not have issues with being a "man down" but to take sick days as vacation days can be deemed as lying or being unprofessional...found out, i would imagine that a resident could easily have to go in front of their residency promotion committee...and you might what to take your own advice...your posts to j4pac were incredibly rude...and while endocrine isn't a very competitive fellowship, we fill without difficulty (you might be confusing it with nephrology, they are having a time of it unfortunately)...

and i mixed up ACGME and ABIM requirements...you can't be board eligible by the ABIM if you miss more that 1 month/year

http://www.abim.org/certification/policies/general/special-training-policies.aspx#leave

though if the deficit is <1 month (say 3 months and 3.5 weeks) taken off, the PD and GME have the discretion to say no additional training is needed...but over a months deficit? you'll have to make up the time...or you can't sit for the boards...finish a residency and not be able to sit for the boards..might as well not have done the residency.
 
gutonc said:
At least you bring the lulz along with the bulls***.
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What is it that you are suggesting? That program's dont give sick days? Or that they don't give 12 sick days? What do you think they give? It's fine if that's what you'd like to believe, your choice, but that's what's typical.
 
rokshana said:
i wasn't being condensing to other specialties...to you maybe for not being able to comprehend what you read, but no... PM&R, as with with other specialties that don't have the significant call schedules such as surgery, surgery subspecialties, and mid size and smaller IM programs that have a greater dependency on their residents, may not have issues with being a "man down" but to take sick days as vacation days can be deemed as lying or being unprofessional...found out, i would imagine that a resident could easily have to go in front of their residency promotion committee...and you might what to take your own advice...your posts to j4pac were incredibly rude...and while endocrine isn't a very competitive fellowship, we fill without difficulty (you might be confusing it with nephrology, they are having a time of it unfortunately)...

and i mixed up ACGME and ABIM requirements...you can't be board eligible by the ABIM if you miss more that 1 month/year

http://www.abim.org/certification/policies/general/special-training-policies.aspx#leave

though if the deficit is <1 month (say 3 months and 3.5 weeks) taken off, the PD and GME have the discretion to say no additional training is needed...but over a months deficit? you'll have to make up the time...or you can't sit for the boards...finish a residency and not be able to sit for the boards..might as well not have done the residency.
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My posts to j4pac were rude? I don't see at all how they were rude in the least. You seem to be rude for some reason to everyone, reason why you have snarky and condescending remarks for everyone. You have a right to your opinion, but this is supposed to be a forum of physicians where people should be respected. So if you think that the OP or the other poster should not take sick days fine, that's your choice. But respect others without being rude. You should know better.

Perhaps learn to realize that other people's experiences are different than yours, and many programs are different than where you have trained or currently train. I am telling you as someone who has trained in different programs in several states that many programs out there don't view things so rigidly. So you have the right to think that all residents will be terminated if they take 12 sick days. I disagree. From personal experience to knowing a ton of residents both at my own institution and at many others, sick days in many many places are taken without difficulty. I'm sorry if it's different at your institution. I happen to believe that the poster who asked about sick days should take them if he's sick. I'm not suggesting he/she lie.
 
Rehab_dr said:
My posts to j4pac were rude? I don't see at all how they were rude in the least. You seem to be rude for some reason to everyone, reason why you have snarky and condescending remarks for everyone. You have a right to your opinion, but this is supposed to be a forum of physicians where people should be respected. So if you think that the OP or the other poster should not take sick days fine, that's your choice. But respect others without being rude. You should know better.

Perhaps learn to realize that other people's experiences are different than yours, and many programs are different than where you have trained or currently train. I am telling you as someone who has trained in different programs in several states that many programs out there don't view things so rigidly. So you have the right to think that all residents will be terminated if they take 12 sick days. I disagree. From personal experience to knowing a ton of residents both at my own institution and at many others, sick days in many many places are taken without difficulty. I'm sorry if it's different at your institution. I happen to believe that the poster who asked about sick days should take them if he's sick. I'm not suggesting he/she lie.
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ok...sooo my experiences are not real BUT YOUR experiences are solidly evidence of being fact...

sounds like a holiday inn commercial...

btw...posts # 23 and 28 (the fact you can't see it may be part of the problem).

but seriously,
I have NO IDEA where you got that I (or anyone here for that matter) have said don't take sick day when you are actually sick...maybe if your program gave you the "typical" 3-4 weeks off, then you wouldn't feel the need to take sick days for vacation days...but it has been posted in other threads that different programs have different ideas about what is appropriate in different specialities...you seem to think that what you have seen is the norm and everyone here must accept your opinion as the truth...but you are not willing to entertain that the experiences of others that ave posted are just as valid...who is it exactly that is being condescending?
 
rokshana said:
ok...sooo my experiences are not real BUT YOUR experiences are solidly evidence of being fact...

sounds like a holiday inn commercial...

btw...posts # 23 and 28 (the fact you can't see it may be part of the problem).

but seriously,
I have NO IDEA where you got that I (or anyone here for that matter) have said don't take sick day when you are actually sick...maybe if your program gave you the "typical" 3-4 weeks off, then you wouldn't feel the need to take sick days for vacation days...but it has been posted in other threads that different programs have different ideas about what is appropriate in different specialities...you seem to think that what you have seen is the norm and everyone here must accept your opinion as the truth...but you are not willing to entertain that the experiences of others that ave posted are just as valid...who is it exactly that is being condescending?
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Dude seriously get a grip. You clearly did not read what I wrote.

I specifically said you are entitled to your opinion and to believe what you'd like. How did you miss that?
I have specifically stated that these are my thoughts and opinions and have told you to respect others' opinions. Just like my experience is unique to me, your experience is unique to you.

I told you that MY experience is DIFFERENT, and that other people's experiences might be different from YOURS, so you should be able to respect that. Second we get 3 weeks, or 15 working days plus the weekends before and after + 12 sick days and a week of conference in 3rd and a week of conference in 4th year. I don't take sick days as vacation days - you stating that is outright insane, as I have never said that. I take sick days whenever I am sick or don't feel well, period.

Furhter you are in Medicine which is notorious for working their residents excessive. Even then when I did my internship we got 3 weeks vacay + 12 days off for sick days, and most people took all 12 days with no second thought, and not a single resident got in trouble. In my current institution most people take an avg of 5 sick days per 1/2 year, even in Medicine and Surgery, and again not a single resident has been fired in any specialty.

So again understand this - while your institution may view things a certain way and you may have had a harsh reality with sick days other institutions and programs view things differently. You can believe what you'd like though.
 
Rehab_dr said:
First of all, don't be so condescending to other specialties. What is your problem with PMR? Coming from a specialty like Endo yourself, I wouldn't consider yourself so high and mighty given that it's one of the least competitive specialties out there, where depts have to look to the ends of the earth for fellows.

Second, most specialties are fine with it. I have never heard of any program giving a resident a hard time over taking a sick day. Sick days are there to be used. And no, you are incorrect - ACGME allows 6! not 4 weeks to be missed every year without having to do extra training.

Learn to be polite and gracious when responding to others' opinions. That's what professional people do. It seems you have an issue with everyone, goodness.
Click to expand...

That is misleading.
ACGME allowance is only part of the story. It also depends on what your licensing board allows. For Surgery, you need 48 weeks a year of training. That means no more than 4 weeks of vacation/sick days/whatever each year. Take more than that and you can't sit for the boards. And we literally had to document each vacation/sick leave/maternity leave/etc. taken over all years of residency in our apps and have it signed off on. If you became ill and needed to be off longer than 4 weeks in any given year, you had to file a waiver (which would give you a one-time exemption; if denied or longer than the allowance, you had to extend your training or not be board eligible). ABS is not unique with this, other boards have similar requirements. Some probably do allow 6 weeks off a year. But it is entirely reasonable for a residency program to give less days off than what the ACGME allows, in order to ensure their grads are able to sit for the boards.

My institution (not just program---we're talking all specialties) did not give sick days in resident contracts. We all had identical contracts (pay specific to our PGY year), and we all got 4 weeks of vacation. If you became ill, it came out of your vacation time.


Edit: replied before I saw Rokshana's post about the ABIM requirements.
 
Smurfette said:
That is misleading.
ACGME allowance is only part of the story. It also depends on what your licensing board allows. For Surgery, you need 48 weeks a year of training. That means no more than 4 weeks of vacation/sick days/whatever each year. Take more than that and you can't sit for the boards. And we literally had to document each vacation/sick leave/maternity leave/etc. taken over all years of residency in our apps and have it signed off on. If you became ill and needed to be off longer than 4 weeks in any given year, you had to file a waiver (which would give you a one-time exemption; if denied or longer than the allowance, you had to extend your training or not be board eligible). ABS is not unique with this, other boards have similar requirements. Some probably do allow 6 weeks off a year. But it is entirely reasonable for a residency program to give less days off than what the ACGME allows, in order to ensure their grads are able to sit for the boards.

My institution (not just program---we're talking all specialties) did not give sick days in resident contracts. We all had identical contracts (pay specific to our PGY year), and we all got 4 weeks of vacation. If you became ill, it came out of your vacation time.


Edit: replied before I saw Rokshana's post about the ABIM requirements.
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Perhaps that is specific to surgery. However many programs do give 4 weeks vacation + 12 days sick days or a combo of 3 weeks vacation + 5 days personal days + 12 sick days or some type of combo so it definitely varies per specialty. But I see what you are saying. For us it's 6 weeks.
 
Rehab_dr said:
I think times have changed. As someone else pointed out, it's no longer the 1960's where residents need to work 100hours per week, 365 days of the year. If you don't care about your own health and your own time I suppose that's your choice and I can respect that. I value both, and know many others who do as well. So if you don't feel well - don't come in. Rounding with a pole is preposterous. Previously I did have that mentality but things have changed and I would never again go back to the mentality of we have to work ourselves silly. In a previous program, I literally had an abscess that I had to get incised - I took about 2 hours, had the procedure done, and went back to my program afterwards. Quite a miserable experience. I have learned to value my health and my time. Just like we coddle patients excessively, we need to take care of ourselves first. Not doing so is why ther eis sooo much physician burnt out and why so many physicians are so darn miserable.
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Um, I didn't do residency in the 1960s... Times haven't changed since I was there.
 
rokshana said:
did you miss the part about SICK DAYS AS VACATION DAYS??
and lol...PM&R might be cool with that, but there is a WHOLE thread on this topic that says most other specialties would beg to differ...

and if someone to ALL that time off in one year the bigger problem will be that you would exceed the max time the ACGME allows you to miss as a resident...you can huff and puff all you want about wanting a life, but the ACGME says you can only miss 4 weeks a year...miss more and your residency time will be extended.
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LOL. No...I'm pretty sure that PM&R isn't cool with that.

I think that most programs are pretty reasonable, but that they expect their residents to also understand the process. As a doctor, you show up and do your job. Why? Because in the real world coverage is NOT easy to find...more difficult than in residency more often than not. Residents need to understand that in the real world when you don't show up to work, sicker people lose access to their physician. But if a physician is a liability, at risk of a poor outcome because of their own poor healthy, then the program should do what's in the best interest of their resident and their patients. There is a fine line to walk...and I would hope that most programs and residents would have enough common sense to walk it.
 
My program is getting away with not giving a majority of us vacation time due to not having enough residents to fulfill service obligations. The faculty is very busy in private practice and cannot provide coverage for residents. This is totally kosher if one reads our institutional policies to the letter. What I've learned is that the ACGME doesn't enforce crap, your program has you by the balls till the day you finish residency and you have to abide by the programs rules regardless of what ACGME says.
 
DrJavaSunflower said:
I had a real job with a six figure earning before med school and yes, everyone at my previous work place used sick days to the fullest. I have family members who are attending docs and they use their sick days all the time. I asked this question because I wanted to know how things are done as a lowly resident.

I don't understand why other comments have to be so condescending.
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That's what I want my attending doc to call in sick for 2 weeks to go fishing and rescheduling my appointment.
My guess is A. You're full of it or B. You worked at Google

Either way this is very narcissistic thinking.

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile
 
First of all, my program (IM) does not tell us how many sick days we "have." I think it's more of a matter of, if you're sick, you're sick and you call it in. That said, there is a culture of not doing this on ward (or ICU) months unless you are sick to the point of compromising your ability to take care of patients (or dangerous to your health/life). URI, mild viral gastro, back pain (but still ambulating) > you go to work. Flu with spiking fevers and chills, emesis q2hrs, appendicitis > you stay at home/go to the hospital. PGY2 here, I've called in sick 1 day in residency, on the first day of a geriatrics rotation, half day of clinic (largely shadowing), because of 2 weeks of unrelenting bronchitis in the midst of a CCU rotation I had just completed. I felt OK doing that because I knew that it would do nothing to patient care and none of my co-residents would be called in to replace me. It never crossed my mind to do that in the CCU, despite how miserable I was feeling, because I knew that dragging in a co-resident to cover 8 critically ill patients unfamiliar to them was far worse (to them) than my coping with being sick, and I knew that it would earn me a bad reputation with my colleagues. I can tell you that I have a co-resident who called in sick on her 30 hr call day in the MICU for lower back pain (but was back the next day and walking fine), and then also took off on her short call day to go to a conference without finding coverage, and her reputation with her co-residents is absolutely ****ty.
 
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And another thing, regardless of how easy or hard a job is, or what the stakes are, calling in sick when you are not actually sick at all (and, what's more, using this for vacation), is unethical and if discovered would be valid grounds for termination at any job.
 
Having seen how other businesses handle this kind of issue, I wish more places would handle sick days like this:

1. Instead of distinguishing between sick days and vacation days, just make it a general pool of PTO days to be used as you see fit for vacation or illness (so there is no incentive to call in sick just to "use up" days that would otherwise go to waste - if there's nothing to lose, I think most people would rather plan their time off in advance rather than calling in abruptly and screwing over coworkers).
2. Allow the worker to cash in their unused PTO time for extra pay at the end of the year (so you're actually giving them an incentive to NOT call into work unless they truly, truly need to).

In fact, now that I am an attending, the above is exactly how the place I work at handles PTO for attendings. It seems to work fine. Sure, I don't love having to cover for colleagues who suddenly call in sick, but life happens, and I don't feel like anyone is abusing the system.
 
northernpsy said:
2. Allow the worker to cash in their unused PTO time for extra pay at the end of the year (so you're actually giving them an incentive to NOT call into work unless they truly, truly need to).
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My hospital used to do that for people, then about 8 months or so ago, decided to do away with it, and it became a 'use it or lose it' thing. I guess too many people were working essentially the whole year and not taking their PTO.

Which is interesting, because we can't keep nurses in our clinic for anything, it seems.
 
mvenus929 said:
My hospital used to do that for people, then about 8 months or so ago, decided to do away with it, and it became a 'use it or lose it' thing. I guess too many people were working essentially the whole year and not taking their PTO.

Which is interesting, because we can't keep nurses in our clinic for anything, it seems.
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When people retire from the VA, some of them have *months* of saved up PTO. Imagine getting a check for 6 months of your salary the day you retire.
 
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