Can older folks be mstp's?

[eccles1214]

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Do MSTP programs consider older applicants? What do such programs look for outside of the grades, research, volunteering, and publications? I'll be 45 when I apply; I'm in college now. Prior to college, I worked and volunteered in health care for umpteen years.

 

[Wertt]

I have never seen anything stipulating that you must be a certain age to apply.
However, keep in mind the program can take up to 10 years for some people, and from there residency/post-doc, and then trying to become an established researcher with a good lab and pubs, you are looking at 60+ by the time you are on the tenure track.

 

[dl2dp2]

i strongly recommend against people applying MSTP late in their careers.

in fact, i'd say anybody older than 30 should NOT go with the MSTP route except with extenuating circumstances. this question has been discussed previously, but the bottomline is that MSTP is not designed for someone who is starting over midcareer. It's really not designed in your interest if you are older.

It's very unreasonable to expect the same sort of intensity when you are on the tenure track in your 60s compare to someone in his 30. I have not seen an assistant professor in his 60s.

You can try it. You can always apply and send in the application fees and what not. But as someone on the inside I strongly recommend against it.

 

[1Path]

Do MSTP programs consider older applicants? What do such programs look for outside of the grades, research, volunteering, and publications? I'll be 45 when I apply; I'm in college now. Prior to college, I worked and volunteered in health care for umpteen years.

People can be so utterly immature and ludicrous in discouraging folks from their dreams due to age.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=228405&highlight=1path

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=183916&highlight=1path


If you want a more supportive answer without the age discrimination, you might want to try oldpremeds.org. (I believe there's a few of us old geezers interested in MD/PhD). Ya know, this age discrimination thing kinda reminds me of the same arguements people had for women and minorities NOT pursuing higher education not too long ago. 🙄

FYI, I'm 39 and planning to complete the MD/PhD one day too. 👍

 

[hardy]

If you want a more supportive answer without the age discrimination, you might want to try oldpremeds.org. (I believe there's a few of us old geezers interested in MD/PhD). Ya know, this age discrimination thing kinda reminds me of the same arguements people had for women and minorities NOT pursuing higher education not too long ago. 🙄

uhm... you know, some people might be interested in a more realisitic perspective. But you obviously are only interested in cheering whether or not there is any value to it.

And I don't know how you think age and gender discrimination is the same. But after our earlier discussion it is quite clear to me that you have difficulty judging things.

And to the OP: In theory, age discrimination for a MST program is illegal. However, despite this you can be sure that some age discrimination is going on (which is incredibly hard to prove). See the posts in the other thread posted for 1Path for my reasoning. I hope you can read other people's opinions without getting all defensive...

 

[dasta]

I must agree with sluox and hardy that it is probably unrealistic for you to expect to get into a dual degree MSTP program let alone get into medical school due to your age. Despite the non-discriminatory policies posted by medical schools, age discrimination in medical school admissions is real if not explicit. As one advisor stated at a premed conference, "It is not supposed to exist, but it does."

Even if you do get your wish and do a dual degree, you still have to face the discriminatory hiring practices of colleges for tenure track positions. Most colleges would feel that you would be "past your prime" when applying for teaching and possibly even research positions. And no school is immune from such behavior. Recently, the illustrious head of Harvard, Lawrence Summers, denied tenure to two 54-year-old scholars, one of them from Stanford, stating that he wants to focus on the future by taking risks on younger candidates whose best work lies ahead of them.

But I also agree with 1path. Do what your heart says you should do. Why should others be able to pursue their dreams and not you, just because you chose to do it later than others? But don't be surprised if the ugly world of reality rears itself to thwart your hopes and dreams; it happens to even the best of us.

Someday we should all be so lucky to live in a society and world that encourages its citizens to maximize their potential as human beings instead of stunting them. But given that we are still stuck with discrimination, poverty, crime, war, hatred, intolerance, injustice, jealousy, contempt, and obnoxiousness -- we're a long way from that utopia -- if it ever comes.

 

[fantasty]

I must agree with sluox and hardy that it is probably unrealistic for you to expect to get into a dual degree MSTP program let alone get into medical school due to your age. Despite the non-discriminatory policies posted by medical schools, age discrimination in medical school admissions is real if not explicit. As one advisor stated at a premed conference, "It is not supposed to exist, but it does."
...
But I also agree with 1path. Do what your heart says you should do.

I think it's important that the OP realize the time commitment of the MSTP (which others have already discussed). But, it is ultimately his decision. But, I certainly wouldn't discourage them from applying straight MD - my MD class had a 40 and a 50 y.o. (not to mention a lot of late 30's). Both did very well.

If the OP does want to do academic medicine, it might be a possibility via other routes as well. We don't know what they were doing for their "first career" - if they have a lot of research experience, the PhD training may not be necessary.

 

[_ian]

I'd imagine that MSTPs are more difficult for people of older age to get into, because the schools get more bang for their buck, so to speak, from a younger student than an older one. Same deal for when you are looking at academic positions. However, I can't give you statistics or details, so we can believe we live in a perfect world with no age discrimination for the rest of this post.

Entering an MSTP program, you will graduate from the program at age 53. You will enter a residency for at least another three or four years, then have at least one post-doctoral fellowship. Best case scenario, you will be ready for the workforce at around age 57. I'd say that's a pretty optimistic estimate, as well.

It's your decision as to whether you want to spend the next 12+ years of your life on this road. 1Path says to ignore your age, but honestly, you have to be realistic - it's totally possible that you may never land that tenure-track position, and it's totally possible that your health may be on decline soon after you've finished your education.

The question is whether you would still be happy if you were on the path to retirement before your new career started, just because you tried to follow the dream. Or would you be happier just going into medicine?

 

[1Path]

1Path says to ignore your age, but honestly, you have to be realistic - it's totally possible that you may never land that tenure-track position, and it's totally possible that your health may be on decline soon after you've finished your education.

Why do all you people under 30 think ignoring age means being unreal?

If you're under 30 you're more likely to be in a car accident than myself or the OP. So do you avoid cars until you get to that magical age where the statistics change? 😕

Unrealistic would be a person at 4'2" tall expecting to play in the NBA one day. All we're talking about is education which requires a sound mind among many other characeteristis that doesn't have jack to do with age unless you have parkinsons or untreated syphillis, for you "young" folks. 😉

You know, I was pretty disappointed when I realized that my recent MCAT's aren't competitive for MD/PhD programs on my list (Looks like I'll take a leave after my second year of med school to earn the PhD or try to transfer in). But when I ponder the kinds of people I'd potentially have for classmates, I realize it probably is a blessing in disguise. But you'd better be careful, you never know WHO may be the chief resident you have to answer to! 😉 Dam that's a thought, having to answer to an "old" black woman.

 

[tr]

If you're under 30 you're more likely to be in a car accident than myself or the OP. So do you avoid cars until you get to that magical age where the statistics change? 😕

The chance that any given person is going to die in a car accident is less than 100%, while the chance that the OP will be 65 twenty years from now is exactly 100% (assuming he doesn't get in a car accident).

All we're talking about is education which requires a sound mind among many other characteristics that don't have jack to do with age unless you have parkinsons or untreated syphillis, for you "young" folks.

It's not just about the education; it's about what comes afterward. The MD-PhD has the specified goal of training physician-researchers. As several people on this thread have noted, there are another 4-10 years of postgraduate education after the MD-PhD before you can enter a tenure-track position; and the early years in those positions are very stressful and demanding. It really doesn't seem reasonable for someone in the OP's position to tack extra years onto his education when he could get most of what he wants with just the MD.

You know, I was pretty disappointed when I realized that my recent MCAT's aren't competitive for MD/PhD programs on my list (Looks like I'll take a leave after my second year of med school to earn the PhD or try to transfer in).

Can't you reapply to the program you were accepted to, but didn't attend because of family reasons? Seems like they would be willing to let you in, especially given the story.

But when I ponder the kinds of people I'd potentially have for classmates, I realize it probably is a blessing in disguise.

There's no need to be nasty. The OP asked for advice; people are giving it. It is not intrinsically rude to give an honest answer to the question. Just because you don't have the same point of view is no reason to descend into personal attacks.

But you'd better be careful, you never know WHO may be the chief resident you have to answer to! 😉 Dam that's a thought, having to answer to an "old" black woman.

That is unlikely if you have yet to enter your program. I wouldn't view answering to an 'old black woman' any differently from answering to anyone else; but I would be a bit annoyed if I had a chief resident with your dogmatic attitude. Would you also advocate that the patient's age be ignored when dispensing medical advice, because hey, you're only as old as you feel, right?

 

[hardy]

If you're under 30 you're more likely to be in a car accident than myself or the OP. So do you avoid cars until you get to that magical age where the statistics change? 😕

Reality is that you have to pay a higher car insurance premium until you reach that age. So yes, age does affect the use of cars of younger people.
Similarly, although he might want to complete an MD/PhD program the school might take his age into account and realize that it would not be an economical decision to accept him (just like the car insurance charges a higher premium to make insurance more economical).

You know, I was pretty disappointed when I realized that my recent MCAT's aren't competitive for MD/PhD programs on my list (Looks like I'll take a leave after my second year of med school to earn the PhD or try to transfer in). But when I ponder the kinds of people I'd potentially have for classmates, I realize it probably is a blessing in disguise.

A blessing for us as well. This way we won't have a classmate who cannot tolerate other opinions besides her own 🙄

 

[1Path]

Can't you reapply to the program you were accepted to, but didn't attend because of family reasons? Seems like they would be willing to let you in, especially given the story.?

If you had a life outside of school, I'm sure you could come up with a reasonable answer yourself. 😉

 

[1Path]

A blessing for us as well. This way we won't have a classmate who cannot tolerate other opinions besides her own 🙄

There's tolerating opinions and tolerationg dumb opinions. Not pursing a goal due to age is just plain dumb.

 

[hardy]

There's tolerating opinions and tolerationg dumb opinions. Not pursing a goal due to age is just plain dumb.

😴 😴 😴

One day reality will kick in. Good luck for that day, you will need it.

 

[tr]

If you had a life outside of school, I'm sure you could come up with a reasonable answer yourself. 😉

Again with the personal attacks.
Okay snarky, whatever. I was just asking. Sheesh.

 

[1Path]

That is unlikely if you have yet to enter your program. I wouldn't view answering to an 'old black woman' any differently from answering to anyone else; but I would be a bit annoyed if I had a chief resident with your dogmatic attitude. ?

Unlikely, you sure about that? Depending on where I end up in school I already hava master's degree. So if I get the PhD in that SAME area we're talking about passing cumes, defending a proposal and doing research (on a similar topic to my master's degree of course) all by the time you finish your required PhD rotations and find a lab that will tolerate your judgemental arse. But lets keep this real. You guys are in competiton with each other. I could care less about "competition" beyond learning all I can, learning to do good science and learning to practice good medicine.

Would you also advocate that the patient's age be ignored when dispensing medical advice, because hey, you're only as old as you feel, right?

Would you deny a heart transplant to a 60 years-old patient all things being equal, except of course the need for the transplant? Should an 80 year-old woman be entitled to receive a mammogram? Should a 65 year old man with no heart problems be allowed to "compete" with you for the right to take viagra?

 

[1Path]

Again with the personal attacks. Okay snarky, whatever. I was just asking. Sheesh.

Common, what's a "healthy" debate among friends? And besides, snarky is a hellav lot better name than bitch!!

But really, nontrad future MD/PhD's have other things than school to think about when it comes to choosing the "right" school. No personal attack, just stating the facts. We both know that schools aren't too fond of students who turn them down no matter what the reason is. And when you have a family you can't just say "hey, I'll just reapply to school "X" and see if they'll accept me.

 

[tr]

Unlikely, you sure about that? Depending on where I end up in school I already hava master's degree. So if I get the PhD in that SAME area we're talking about passing cumes, defending a proposal and doing research (on a similar topic to my master's degree of course) all by the time you finish your required PhD rotation and find a lab that will tolerate your judgemental arse.

Sugar, I'm getting ready to finish my PhD and dust off my white coat. Not that it's relevant to the discussion at hand. And it is still inaccurate to label the rest of us as 'judgemental' for giving reasonable advice as we see it.

Would you deny a heart transplant to a 60 years-old patient all things being equal, except of course the need for the transplant? Should an 80 year-old woman be entitled to receive a mammogram? Should a 65 year old man with no heart problems be allowed to "compete" with you for the right to take viagra? I think so but I would certainly understand if YOU disagree.

Decisions like these are made routinely in medical care. The calculus of organ donation is complicated, and one of the things it takes into account is the ability of the patient to make use of the transplant. Yes, if there is only one heart, all other things being equal it may well go to a younger patient with no comorbid conditions as opposed to an elderly one who is less likely to take the transplant well. This is not me speaking, it is the response of the medical community to the unavoidable realities of insufficient donor organs. (Regarding the Viagra, that is freely available, but I'm pretty certain it would do the 65-year-old far more good than it would me, seeing as I lack the genital equipment to make use of it.)

 

[kassie]

I don't like the tone of these posts at all.

But, here's my opinion and one that anger in other posts might have distracted from being heard...

MD/PhD is a long road, but not one that is necessary to achieve any goal in life. There is nothing that one wants to do in life that requires both an MD and PhD.

Therefore, it might be best think about your ultimate career goal and figure out which degree will best help you achieve that goal. It would allow you to be at that point earlier than the MD/PhD route and enjoy more time doing what you want.

For example, if you envision your life as a physician with clinical research interests, you need the MD. The PhD is great experience for training reasons, but a goal that could be accomplished with a post-residency K award as an alternative. Or, if your more interested in research with a clinical perspective, go to graduate school and do research in a group consisting of MD colleagues.

Like anything in life, it really is a long road with no guarantees of success. It seems like you have your mind made up but be prepared to be open to alternative paths.

I am just finishing and will be 31 years old (but then again, I am female so it may be a little different), and I feel strange with some attendings being younger than me. And there was a time when I felt very sad about my choice because a lot of my friends had gone ahead with their lives while I was a perpetual student with "no real responsibility." But 8 years has taught me to ignore the chatter and just do what I love so I don't regret it one bit. I needed those 8 years to be who I am now.

Good Luck

 

[1Path]

Sugar, I'm getting ready to finish my PhD and dust off my white coat. Not that it's relevant to the discussion at hand. And it is still inaccurate to label the rest of us as 'judgemental' for giving reasonable advice as we see it..)

Let me translate "ready to finish my PhD" for you since I've spent a little time in grad school. Until EVERY member of your committee signs off on your dissertation and it's been turned in, you're still working on it. I've seen "Degree candidate" titles last anywhere from 2 years to 7 so don't jinx yourself.......................Suga!
BTW, Did you say sugar with a Z snap?

Decisions like these are made routinely in medical care.

Then explain to me how the rich alcoholic ends up with the fresh new liver. Opps, I think I answered dmy own question. Also can you speak to me as the child of the dude who needs the liver transplant? Are you going to say, "you know Dad, that liver would be better suited in someone 36 years old", then tell me how he responds.

(Regarding the Viagra...........seeing as I lack the genital equipment to make use of it.)

Are you sure about that?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed

 

[tr]

BTW, Did you say sugar with a Z snap?

I suppose you can picture one there if you'd like. Too bad we don't have a Z-snap smiley. Maybe we can petition the mods for one.

Also can you speak to me as the child of the dude who needs the liver transplant? Are you going to say, "you know Dad, that liver would be better suited in someone 36 years old", then tell me how he responds.

Of course not, which is why these decisions are made on the basis of a distribution algorithm with no personal investments.

Are you sure about that?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed

Totally off topic, sorry for the hijack - that link just took me to the Pubmed search page; but I assume it's about use of sildenafil to increase libido in women? I know people have been giving that off-label for a while; I thought someone had finally done a study and found no benefit. News to me if there's a study with a different conclusion out there. Anyway.

 

[1Path]

I suppose you can picture one there if you'd like. Too bad we don't have a Z-snap smiley. Maybe we can petition the mods for one. .

Waaay off topic here...................
So now that I know you're a female (I had NO idea until today 😛 ) there is one thing that BOTH our careers will have in common post residency/fellowship no matter how old we are when we start. We're BOTH going to have to contend with a system that based on the numbers, doesn't want us there (I'm assuming academia is your goal too). Now they way I see it, we have 2 choices: We can seperate ourselves into 2 groups, assistant professors above age 40 and those under 40. Or we can ban together to change the "system". I voting for getting together, what about you?

 

[tr]

Waaay off topic here...................
So now that I know you're a female (I had NO idea until today 😛 )

I've actually mentioned it several times, but the tendency to associate the poster with the gender of the avatar seems to be strong enough to override other indications. I'd like to take this opportunity to declare that I do not, in fact, resemble Homer Simpson in any way, shape, or form. 🙂

there is one thing that BOTH our careers will have in common post residency/fellowship no matter how old we are when we start. We're BOTH going to have to contend with a system that based on the numbers, doesn't want us there (I'm assuming academia is your goal too). Now they way I see it, we have 2 choices: We can seperate ourselves into 2 groups, assistant professors above age 40 and those under 40. Or we can ban together to change the "system". I voting for getting together, what about you?

Regarding age, I don't see myself as in competition with my colleagues in the first place, and certainly wouldn't divide them into groups based on age(?!). Regarding the system, it definitely needs to be changed, for the benefit of both genders. I actually spoke with an MD-PhD who was an alumna of my undergrad school about this; she's about ten years ahead of me in this whole deal and now in the new-faculty phase. She had a lot of good advice for me, but in the end, unfortunately, change is slow. Anyway, this hijack is getting out of control. Perhaps another thread is in order.

 

[cadilakgrl]

Wow, this post is getting a little crazy...but I just want to reflect on my first interview which did pose some difficult questions about my age. And despite what schools may say, age and time it takes to complete the program is obviously on the minds of the MSTP committee members.

I had a interview today at a very prominent research institution with a very famous and nice faculty member who was a MD/PhD himself and on the MSTP committee. I am only 26, and I consider myself pretty young but I am significantly older than most of the MSTP applicants who I think average around the age of 22. This committee member is very kind and was in no way trying to discourage me but he brought up the issue of time and how old I will be when I graduate (~34) and when I get my first faculty position (40's). I think this is a very valid question and you shouldn't take offense to these questions if you are an older applicant. I think they have to test your motivations and ability to stick with the program. As he mentioned, a lot of people drop out and they want to make sure that they pick people who are committed and who won't burn out or change their minds. Being older does bring up a lot of issues, level of energy, family, false motivations, that may affect your success in sticking with the program. Just be aware that you will be asked about them if you are applying to top programs. And even the best answer may not convince them to accept you because they do know what the reality is.

 

[1Path]

I'd just like to add that I recently spoke with the director of an MSTP program who when learning of my age (he did the math from the time I finished my bachelor degrees) did not have one single negative comment to make.

So I think the moral of this story is that there are apparently some MSTP's out there willing to look beyond age which is a complete and total suprise to me and that you don't need a super high MCAT to be competitive. In fact, this director said their number 1 criteria was extensive RESEARCH experience followed by the "numbers" because in his experience, those students more likely to quit the program are those who don't have sufficient lab experience. And perhaps because running is one of my hobbies, they're not concerned about my "energy levels" either.