can osteopathic physician (DO) write MD after name?

[Shnurek]

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Please tell me you guys don't actually think that in any serious way.

I've only really had contact with a lot of ophthalmologists so they are haters on optometry because IMO it is a superior educational model but other physicians seem not to care as much, is that true?

 

[da8s0859q]

I've only really had contact with a lot of ophthalmologists so they are haters on optometry because IMO it is a superior educational model but other physicians seem not to care as much, is that true?

It's apples and oranges. There are still some things which, as far as I know, are ophthalmology's domain.

Maybe you could argue that the first couple of years of med school aren't all that useful for an ophtho, but rotations plus a residency dedicated to ophthalmology? Eh, not sure how "inefficient" I'd call that.

 

[coldweatherblue]

I've only really had contact with a lot of ophthalmologists so they are haters on optometry because IMO it is a superior educational model but other physicians seem not to care as much, is that true?

Good to hear the opinion of pre-optometry students regarding physician education. Next time I see a globe rupture I'll think of lenscrafters when the ophthalmologist comes in to provide definitive management.

 

[Shnurek]

Heh, in two states optometrists can perform eye surgery following special residencies.

Testicular palpation is very useful for ophthalmology didn't you guys know?

 

[da8s0859q]

Heh, in two states optometrists can perform eye surgery following special residencies.

Testicular palpation is very useful for ophthalmology didn't you guys know?

So in other words, optometrists need to go through special, out-of-the-way training to do something they ordinarily wouldn't be able to do, and in only two of 50 states? Gotcha.

Dude, I don't know why you've got a chip on your shoulder about the whole thing, but relax. ODs fill one role, ophthalmologists fill another. They are not equals.

 

[Shnurek]

I'm not. I was just replying sarcastically to a sarcastic comment. I am just excited by what the future brings to my profession. Ophthalmologists at the moment are more highly trained but I believe a bridge program will be created.

Example of a parallel: To become a vascular surgeon one must either go through a 5 year general surgery residency and a 2 year vascular surgery fellowship or go through a 5 year vascular surgery residency. Both end up in the same place but the latter is shorter.

The parallel to DO's is that while DO's conformed to the medical model, we are trying to follow the dental model and better it. And there is no harm of regular medical students knowing our intentions.

 

[patel2]

I'm not. I was just replying sarcastically to a sarcastic comment. I am just excited by what the future brings to my profession. Ophthalmologists at the moment are more highly trained but I believe a bridge program will be created.

Example of a parallel: To become a vascular surgeon one must either go through a 5 year general surgery residency and a 2 year vascular surgery fellowship or go through a 5 year vascular surgery residency. Both end up in the same place but the latter is shorter.

The parallel to DO's is that while DO's conformed to the medical model, we are trying to follow the dental model and better it. And there is no harm of regular medical students knowing our intentions.

you're delusional (srs). there will never be any bridge program from optometrist to ophthalmologist in the same way there would never be a bridge program from nurse anesthetist to anesthesiology, and they've made far greater strides in practice rights in their profession than optometrists have. U mad?

Oregon allows naturopathic doctors to prescribe meds and perform minor surgeries...does that mean NDs will soon be allowed to complete ACGME residencies and that they are gaining parity on MD/DO colleagues?

 

[shaggy alfresco]

There is no chance of any optometry to ophthalmology bridge. Ever.

Now, optometrists may in fact succeed in getting more privileges and rights to do more things that currently only ophthalmologists do, which is a separate issue and one that I am not qualified to speak about. But a bridge? If it was possible to have less than a zero chance of something happening, a bridge program to make you an ophthalmologist from an optometrist would be that.

 

[Regal Regan]

Oregon allows naturopathic doctors to prescribe meds and perform minor surgeries...does that mean NDs will soon be allowed to complete ACGME residencies and that they are gaining parity on MD/DO colleagues?

Why would a naturopathic doctor prescribe meds?

 

[Reductio]

you're delusional (srs). there will never be any bridge program from optometrist to ophthalmologist in the same way there would never be a bridge program from nurse anesthetist to anesthesiology, and they've made far greater strides in practice rights in their profession than optometrists have. U mad?

Oregon allows naturopathic doctors to prescribe meds and perform minor surgeries...does that mean NDs will soon be allowed to complete ACGME residencies and that they are gaining parity on MD/DO colleagues?

There is no chance of any optometry to ophthalmology bridge. Ever.

Now, optometrists may in fact succeed in getting more privileges and rights to do more things that currently only ophthalmologists do, which is a separate issue and one that I am not qualified to speak about. But a bridge? If it was possible to have less than a zero chance of something happening, a bridge program to make you an ophthalmologist from an optometrist would be that.

🙄 Thats what they said about dentists doing head and neck surgery.

Now there is a "bridge program" for dentists to do plastic surgery or ENT, or whatever they like. DDS -> OMFSresidency (+ awarding of MD) -> Any ACGME residency they want ( Plastic/Reconstructive surgery), ENT, anything). Never say never.

Regarding IMGs with an MBBS or MBChB who say they have an MD - most states have a legal provision which states that when they get into residency, the state Dept of Education gives them an MD equivalency. Medicine isn't they only field where the DOE converts degrees, so its not unfair, or strange or anything.

 

[Reductio]

Why would a naturopathic doctor prescribe meds?

Why would an opto-METRIST do surgery? I guess for some, when they actually get knee deep in their field, they end up wanting to do something different. Especially when the doctors of optometry/dentistry/podiatry/etc MUST be able to recognize serious conditions and refer appropriately as part of their job - I can see how some might want to do more, esp. when they already have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done anyway. Its human nature.

 

[LesBois88]

Why would a naturopathic doctor prescribe meds?

Money.

 

[Shnurek]

Why would an opto-METRIST do surgery?

Same reason why an OSTEO-path would do eye surgery. Nowadays these professional terms are antiquated and don't accurately describe providers' scope of practice.

I guess for some, when they actually get knee deep in their field, they end up wanting to do something different. Especially when the doctors of optometry/dentistry/podiatry/etc MUST be able to recognize serious conditions and refer appropriately as part of their job - I can see how some might want to do more, esp. when they already have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done anyway. Its human nature.

Exactly.

Optometrists have performed over 250,000 surgeries in Oklahoma so far with no complications. They used this precedent to push for surgical rights in Kentucky and succeeded in February 2011.

 

[Shnurek]

The real reason why they are doing it is because optometrists WANT to stop the endless headaches over medical insurance panel discrimination and battling over every single eye drop that comes out. However in a poll, only 30% of optometrists responded that if given a choice to go through a 2 year residency to perform surgery, they would do so.

 

[womp]

You know we used to have quack laws that were actually enforced, and then health care teamwork kumbaya came.

Every nurse and lab tech at my hospital wears a white coat. Tons of patients think they are doctors. They also wear their white coats with their disgusting scrubs on the subway and other passengers probably think they are "arrogant doctors showing off their status."

I've yet to hear paralegals called "lawyers" at a law firm, I'd imagine that wouldn't go well among the biglaw firms. Probably be sued.

 

[Shnurek]

Heh, I'd love for DO's DNP's PA's NP's not to exist, OD's to only have refracting rights and MD's to be more plentiful (I'd apply for MD then) but hey its a screwed up system and we have to make the most of it :/

Its a mad rush to get the biggest slice of the pie.

And I agree 100%, GED techs/nurses should not wear lab coats EVER. A lab coat has to be earned.

BTW, if anyone cared, the average GPA for my optometry school is the same exact average GPA as for osteopathic school (3.48).

 

[shaggy alfresco]

No nobody cares. An undergrad GPA doesn't indicate that you can perform eye surgery.

 

[Pansit]

Heh, I'd love for DO's DNP's PA's NP's not to exist, OD's to only have refracting rights and MD's to be more plentiful (I'd apply for MD then) but hey its a screwed up system and we have to make the most of it :/

Its a mad rush to get the biggest slice of the pie.

And I agree 100%, GED techs/nurses should not wear lab coats EVER. A lab coat has to be earned.

BTW, if anyone cared, the average GPA for my optometry school is the same exact average GPA as for osteopathic school (3.48).

What are you talking about?? You earn a degree...not a stupid lab coat. Lab coats are there for your protection from blood, bodily fluids...etc. Who cares about who wears it. YOUR ID BADGE is there to tell patients your a DOCTOR. If the janitor wants to wear a white coat, then why do you care.

And not at my DO school. Our average gpa was 3.7 and mcat at 28 (with a highest score at 36)

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Heh, I'd love for DO's DNP's PA's NP's not to exist

This right here tells us everything we need to know.

BTW, if anyone cared, the average GPA for my optometry school is the same exact average GPA as for osteopathic school (3.48).

Correction: it's the same exact average GPA as for the lowest tier of osteopathic schools.

 

[sanityonleave]

Good to hear the opinion of pre-optometry students regarding physician education. Next time I see a globe rupture I'll think of lenscrafters when the ophthalmologist comes in to provide definitive management.

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread, but that was one of the funnier things I've read on SDN. I can see it now... "Ambulance 711 to ELO, can you give me the status of the LensCrafters at the mall? Are they on divert? We have a priority one, eye injury, requesting clearance to head there now."

 

[johnmendes]

This right here tells us everything we need to know.

Bro, in Europe, there are no NP's or PA's or midlevels like that... And in 2001, the last year that there was a ranking of the world's best healthcare systems, those countries ranked well above the US which was 20 something...

 

[Reductio]

What are you talking about?? You earn a degree...not a stupid lab coat. Lab coats are there for your protection from blood, bodily fluids...etc. Who cares about who wears it. YOUR ID BADGE is there to tell patients your a DOCTOR. If the janitor wants to wear a white coat, then why do you care.

And not at my DO school. Our average gpa was 3.7 and mcat at 28 (with a highest score at 36)

Thats your opinion.

Depending on what medical school you go to, or what residency program (like JHU), lab coats are earned. If you happen to be taught from day-1 to think of it that way, I think its reasonable to be irritated to see it "misrepresented".

Short for students (also interns at JHU), mid-length for residents, long for attendings. You earn them like stripes on a military uniform.

A Pvt. can't wear Lt. or Capt. stripes, and if they did, an officer might take offense to that. Martial artists need to earn the right to wear dan-stripes on their black belt. You can't just stick red packing tape on your belt all willy nilly, because it looks cool. A chef has to earn the right to trade in their silly baggy Houndstooth pants for solid black pants.

If for four years as a med student, you happen to be told that you have to earn the privilege to wear a long white coat, then thats how you'd see it.

Who cares what your ID says, and that it tells your patients you're a doctor? For some, its not an issue of telling patients you're some fancy doctor. Its a matter of principle.

 

[Reductio]

Bro, in Europe, there are no NP's or PA's or midlevels like that... And in 2001, the last year that there was a ranking of the world's best healthcare systems, those countries ranked well above the US which was 20 something...

Yup, in 2000, the US was down at #37 as per the WHO. We're not as good as most Americans think we are - especially the ones in medical school.

 

[johnmendes]

Who cares what your ID says, and that it tells your patients you're a doctor? For some, its not an issue of telling patients you're some fancy doctor. Its a matter of principle.

 

[motomed]

Yup, in 2000, the US was down at #37 as per the WHO. We're not as good as most Americans think we are - especially the ones in medical school.

yeah, for real. I tell myself all the time, if only I was loaded and had unlimited resources so I could choose which country to get my care in, then I'd be able to go to one of those 36 other countries and would be so much better off for it. oh wait, the people with the means all come here, fools....

 

[johnmendes]

yeah, for real. I tell myself all the time, if only I was loaded and had unlimited resources so I could choose which country to get my care in, then I'd be able to go to one of those 36 other countries and would be so much better off for it. oh wait, the people with the means all come here, fools....

too bad that the people without means (in the US) can't afford neither US nor foreign healthcare... Fool

And it used to be a lot like that, but right now, there is an ever increasing parity among the world's health academic centers... Germany for example is really really investing in research.

 

[womp]

And in 2001, the last year that there was a ranking of the world's best healthcare systems, those countries ranked well above the US which was 20 something...

Oh please, shove your rankings up where the sun don't shine.

The US is a big country. Most of these rankings put undue weight on life expectancy and the populations of these countries are the size of small US states and pasty white. Why don't you compare the life expectancy of Vermont, Mass or New Hampshire with Finland or Denmark?

The US is 63% white (culturally heterogeneous), with a predominant car driving culture and has the highest homicide rate in the developed world. It doesn't take a lot of people dying in their 20s or as premies to lower the life expectancy by a year or two. Our life expectancy numbers are not directly comparable with Europe and Asia when it comes to health care, because much of it has nothing to do with our health care system.

And if you can't figure out how rankings can easily be manipulated for political agenda, you really have no business being a doctor.

 

[Bacchus]

Heh, I'd love for DO's DNP's PA's NP's not to exist, OD's to only have refracting rights and MD's to be more plentiful (I'd apply for MD then) but hey its a screwed up system and we have to make the most of it :/

Its a mad rush to get the biggest slice of the pie.

And I agree 100%, GED techs/nurses should not wear lab coats EVER. A lab coat has to be earned.

BTW, if anyone cared, the average GPA for my optometry school is the same exact average GPA as for osteopathic school (3.48).

Don't insult my education. I'm not insulting yours.

 

[TheRunner]

Bro, in Europe, there are no NP's or PA's or midlevels like that... And in 2001, the last year that there was a ranking of the world's best healthcare systems, those countries ranked well above the US which was 20 something...

False. Europe has many, many midwives. 😱

 

[Reductio]

False. Europe has many, many midwives. 😱

WRONG!

Midwives are mid-levels in the US. In Europe, Asia, and Africa, etc. they are not mid-levels. They aren't even on the "levels" They are mostly direct entry programs, often apprenticeships, and a different profession entirely. They're only tangentially related to the medical field due to the western "medicalization" of pregnancy/childbirth. In the UK, they are often, but not always, nurses first. Elsewhere, they are "just" midwives. Midwife in the US =/= Midwife everywhere else in the world.

 

[TheRunner]

My point was very simple.

The previous poster implied that UK outcomes were superior to US outcomes due to the fact that the UK does not have mid-level providers. This is an erroneous conclusion due to how we define mid-level here in the US (PA, NP, CNM). Follow: Does the UK have PAs? No. Does the UK have NPs? No. Does the UK have CNMs? No. However, that questions is irrelevant as the CNM credential is unique to the US. Instead, one must look at scope of practice. So, does the UK have midwives which are equivalent in scope of practice to US CNMs? The answer to that question is yes. So, it is an unfair conclusion to imply that mid-levels are the reason why US outcomes are so low when the UK so generously utilizes midwives in their system who practice equivalently to our CNMs here in the US.

 

[Reductio]

I disagree. For all intensive purposes, midwives in Europe are what we would consider "mid-levels" here in the US. They deliver women on their own, even outside of hospitals without a doctor even in the immediate vicinity (legally!). While US midwives (meaning CNMs or CMs, NOT CPMs) are among the highest trained midwives in the world (as we require our midwives to have graduate degrees), they are still working within the same scope of practice as midwives in Europe, specifically the UK. It is not consistent to call them mid-levels here in the US, while not calling them mid-levels in the UK when the scope of practice is practically identical.

First of all, its For all intents and purposes.

It doesnt matter what we would consider "midlevels here in the US". The concept of mid-level is defined by the "lower" and "upper" level. Of course they deliver babies on their own without a doctor in the immediate vicinity. Id guess that a vast majority of deliveries around the world are at home, without a physician. What planet are you on?

Legality and scope of practice has nothing to do with it, thats and American concept. Westerners have artificially medicalized pregnancy and childbirth. If you want to be "consistent" about it - in many countries midwives independently handle very complicated deliveries, above the level of American midwives. It's not like a midwife in the plains of Holland, or Sub-saharan Africa can magically make a hospital appear when theres a problem. "Scope of practice" goes out the window when you're "it". You wanna call them OB/Gyns? It's apples and oranges.

So again. Midwives are not considered "midlevels" outside the US. They are considered a non-medical profession in their own right.

 

[Reductio]

My point was very simple.

The previous poster implied that UK outcomes were superior to US outcomes due to the fact that the UK does not have mid-level providers. This is an erroneous conclusion due to how we define mid-level here in the US (PA, NP, CNM). Follow: Does the UK have PAs? No. Does the UK have NPs? No. Does the UK have CNMs? No. However, that questions is irrelevant as the CNM credential is unique to the US. Instead, one must look at scope of practice. So, does the UK have midwives which are equivalent in scope of practice to US CNMs? The answer to that question is yes. So, it is an unfair conclusion to imply that mid-levels are the reason why US outcomes are so low when the UK so generously utilizes midwives in their system who practice equivalently to our CNMs here in the US.

Fine... then just take Midwifery out of the picture. It's not a "medical" profession in many parts of the world.... similar to a coroner. Carry on with your debate.

 

[andrewmalanga]

The cowgirls are mudslingin'!

 

[TheRunner]

Fine... then just take Midwifery out of the picture. It's not a "medical" profession in many parts of the world.... similar to a coroner. Carry on with your debate.

I'm fine with that.

 

[johnmendes]

Coming from an european country and being exposed to the medical reality in both Europe and the States, I can't help but to wonder what is the point of all those NPs, PAs, DNPs... The outcome of the health services provided isn't better, there is more spending with unnecessary exams (I know this also derives from liability and fear of malpractice), and there is all the bickering about scope of practice. I told some professors that in some states, optometrists can perform eye surgery, and nurses are trying to be called doctors and practice independently. They .

I think the main point, to finish this long off topic is: wanna be a doctor and do what a doctor does, go to med school, not the short way around.

 

[motomed]

too bad that the people without means (in the US) can't afford neither US nor foreign healthcare... Fool

And it used to be a lot like that, but right now, there is an ever increasing parity among the world's health academic centers... Germany for example is really really investing in research.

first of all, don't confuse access with quality, unless your measure for quality is "how many people get to have it?" a lot more people can afford kias than can afford a rolls, but that doesn't make the kia a higher quality vehicle.....

second, don't confuse an inability to pay for something with the quality of that something being offered. quality and value are two very different things. when it comes to health, I'm willing to sacrifice some value to get higher quality.

besides that, nobody in the US goes without care unless they choose to. go hang out in an ER for a while, there's a whole lot more primary care going on in there than there is emergency medicine. it may not be ideal, but if you've got something wrong with you it gets taken care of. the hospital I worked in for four years had full time benefits eligible positions available at all times in the kitchen and environmental services. I used to tell patients this all the time when they whined about not having insurance or a job. if you can pee in a cup without alarms going off, they'd give you the job. you don't get to cry me a river about not having insurance and access to care if you didn't give a damn about it and weren't willing to sacrifice anything at all in order to get it prior to you actually needing it. every ER I've ever worked in also had social workers who would jump through the hoops for you to get you the care you need if you couldn't pay for it. patients generally ignored everything they had to say...

others have already mentioned some of the other factors that make world health rankings totally worthless....

 

[shaggy alfresco]

the hospital I worked in for four years had full time benefits eligible positions available at all times in the kitchen and environmental services.

If the $6/hour job at your work also came with full medical insurance, that's an exception, not the rule.....

 

[MedStudentWanna]

besides that, nobody in the US goes without care unless they choose to. go hang out in an ER for a while, there's a whole lot more primary care going on in there than there is emergency medicine

When was the last time a cancer patient showed up for weekly chemo to the ER? What about the dialysis patient who came to the ER three times a week to get dialysis? When did the last healthy 21-year-old woman come to the ER for a physical and gyn exam?

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Bro, in Europe, there are no NP's or PA's or midlevels like that... And in 2001, the last year that there was a ranking of the world's best healthcare systems, those countries ranked well above the US which was 20 something...

First off, I was objecting to lumping DOs in that category. Secondly, get your facts straight:

In Germany the B.Sc Physician Assistant program is currently offered at the Steinbeis-Hochschule in Berlin, The Mathias Hochschule in Rheine (University of Applied Sciences) and at the Duale Hochschule Baden-Württemberg in Karlsruhe. The standard B.Sc takes 3 years to complete. Most PA students start their medical education with a background of health care experience. They are educated in the medical model designed to complement physician medical training, rather than in the nursing model. Physician assistants are not to be confused with medical assistants "arztassistents" or "arzthelfer", who perform administrative and simple clinical tasks with limited postsecondary education, under the direct supervision of doctors and other health professionals.

PA's are to be employed within various hospital settings according to their chosen specialities. Though not yet a registered profession PAs are already allowed to practice under delegation rules from a medical doctor ("Approbierter Arzt"). Currently legislation in the advanced thinking southern province of Germany, Baden-Württemberg, are allowing for a registered Physician Assistant (Staatlich annerkanter).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician_assistant#PAs_in_the_United_States

The UK:

Nurse Practitioners - these nurses carry out care at an advanced practice level. They often perform roles similar to those of Doctors. They commonly work in primary care (e.g., GP surgeries) or A&E departments, although they are increasingly being seen in other areas of practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursing_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Why would an opto-METRIST do surgery? I guess for some, when they actually get knee deep in their field, they end up wanting to do something different. Especially when the doctors of optometry/dentistry/podiatry/etc MUST be able to recognize serious conditions and refer appropriately as part of their job - I can see how some might want to do more, esp. when they already have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done anyway. Its human nature.

That's different than a naturopath prescribing meds. The whole point of naturopathic medicine is to treat without the use of medicine, is it not?

 

[MedStudentWanna]

WRONG!

Midwives are mid-levels in the US. In Europe, Asia, and Africa, etc. they are not mid-levels. They aren't even on the "levels" They are mostly direct entry programs, often apprenticeships, and a different profession entirely. They're only tangentially related to the medical field due to the western "medicalization" of pregnancy/childbirth. In the UK, they are often, but not always, nurses first. Elsewhere, they are "just" midwives. Midwife in the US =/= Midwife everywhere else in the world.

Then why is the organization that oversees them called The Nursing and Midwifery Council?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursing_and_Midwifery_Council

 

[Reductio]

WRONG!

Midwives are mid-levels in the US. In Europe, Asia, and Africa, etc. they are not mid-levels. They aren't even on the "levels" They are mostly direct entry programs, often apprenticeships, and a different profession entirely. They're only tangentially related to the medical field due to the western "medicalization" of pregnancy/childbirth. In the UK, they are often, but not always, nurses first. Elsewhere, they are "just" midwives. Midwife in the US =/= Midwife everywhere else in the world.

Then why is the organization that oversees them called The Nursing and Midwifery Council?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursing_and_Midwifery_Council

Yeah, and? Midwifery is a profession in its own right - not always an advanced practice nurse. Thats what I said.

 

[Reductio]

That's different than a naturopath prescribing meds. The whole point of naturopathic medicine is to treat without the use of medicine, is it not?

Yeah and when the naturopath finds a condition (insert minor curable issue with severe sequelae here) that needs conventional medicine, they risk losing the patient to an MD. Sooner or later some of them would come up with the idea of being qualified to prescribe certain conventional medications, cure said condition, and carry on with their natural remedies and keep the patient. Thats what I said.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Yeah, and? Midwifery is a profession in its own right - not always an advanced practice nurse. Thats what I said.

Actually, what you said was:

Midwives are mid-levels in the US. In Europe, Asia, and Africa, etc. they are not mid-levels. They aren't even on the "levels" They are mostly direct entry programs, often apprenticeships, and a different profession entirely. They're only tangentially related to the medical field due to the western "medicalization"{/quote]

Something that's a "different profession entirely," "tangentially related to the medical field" wouldn't be lumped in with nurses. They'd have their own oversight committee.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Yeah and when the naturopath finds a condition (insert minor curable issue with severe sequelae here) that needs conventional medicine, they risk losing the patient to an MD. Sooner or later some of them would come up with the idea of being qualified to prescribe certain conventional medications, cure said condition, and carry on with their natural remedies and keep the patient. Thats what I said.

Actually, what you said was:

Why would an opto-METRIST do surgery? I guess for some, when they actually get knee deep in their field, they end up wanting to do something different. Especially when the doctors of optometry/dentistry/podiatry/etc MUST be able to recognize serious conditions and refer appropriately as part of their job - I can see how some might want to do more, esp. when they already have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done anyway. Its human nature.

Wanting to do it out of interest, as your previous post implied, is entirely different than doing it to avoid losing business. A naturopath who is a true naturopath (not just one who went that route because he/she couldn't get into MD school) doesn't believe in meds so your comparison on that level between them and an optometrist who may be interested in performing surgery because it's the next thing to do doesn't hold.

But on my next exam, I'm going to use your strategy. When I mark B as the correct answer and the answer turns out to be C, which has one or two of the same words in it that B had, I'm going to approach my professor and say, "but that's what I said..."

 

[Reductio]

Actually, what you said was:

Midwives are mid-levels in the US. In Europe, Asia, and Africa, etc. they are not mid-levels. They aren't even on the "levels" They are mostly direct entry programs, often apprenticeships, and a different profession entirely. They're only tangentially related to the medical field due to the western "medicalization"{/quote]

Something that's a "different profession entirely," "tangentially related to the medical field" wouldn't be lumped in with nurses. They'd have their own oversight committee.

Oh, Would they now?

I wasn't aware that every single governing body around the world was bound by writ to have distinct committees for everything, and they can't be covered under one larger committee.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Oh, Would they now?

I wasn't aware that every single governing body around the world was bound by writ to have distinct committees for everything, and they can't be covered under one larger committee.

Name two "different professions entirely" that have the same governing body. I can't think of one instance where that's true. Here in the U.S., it's not like the Federal Communications Commission oversees the Federal Reserve.

 

[Reductio]

Actually, what you said was:



Wanting to do it out of interest, as your previous post implied, is entirely different than doing it to avoid losing business. A naturopath who is a true naturopath (not just one who went that route because he/she couldn't get into MD school) doesn't believe in meds so your comparison on that level between them and an optometrist who may be interested in performing surgery because it's the next thing to do doesn't hold.

But on my next exam, I'm going to use your strategy. When I mark B as the correct answer and the answer turns out to be C, which has one or two of the same words in it that B had, I'm going to approach my professor and say, "but that's what I said..."

Naturopaths aren't psychotic. They choose to practice using natural remedies, and their patients choose to go to them for such. To say that they dont "believe" in meds is completely idiotic. I choose not to perform surgery. Thats not to say I don't "believe" in surgery. If I need to do an I&D, I do it. If it's too complex, I refer the patient out.

If the Naturopath finds a condition thats beyond the scope of natural remedies he refers the patient out. If its something simple .... say.... tetanus prophylaxis, or a short course of ABX for a lac that they just sutured up (guess what, NDs can suture).... they may eventually feel that they should just be able to write the Rx themselves, rather then sending them to an MD for the specific Rx.

My original point, which you've taken out of context and belabored, is that in the normal course of a non-Allopathic practice, I imagine that one finds situations where they must refer their patient to an Allopath. However, unlike my situation, where I refer to surgery due to complexity; a naturopath, or optometrist will sometimes refer to an allopath for something that they know how to administer, only because the law says so.

The slippery slope goes from "already know how" to "can easily learn how to administer". Then the itch to change the law creeps up.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Anyway, back to the thread at hand:

In Arizona, naturopaths are allowed to call themselves NMD (naturopathic medical doctors). Yet another confusing title to add to the mix in the clinical setting. IMO, conventional medical doctors (MDs and DOs) should have one title to avoid patient confusion about who's who.