Can someone enlighten me on the realities of clinical rotations for DO students?

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As a medical student I am still trying to wrap my head around why any of this really matters. We are so early in our clinical education that becoming experts in bread and butter cases should be the focus - especially in 3rd year - and you don't absolutely need to be at a large tertiary center to do this.

It's a huge dichotomy where doctors are largely trained in an academic environment yet the large majority of them practice in the community doing bread and butter. I have yet to hear a good reason for why this is so heavily emphasized.
 
You CAN get a good rotational experience in DO clinical years... but you have to be prepared to do your own research and legwork, which usually ends up with at least a couple of individual rotational experiences to be subpar. This is to be expected: a DO student isn't an expert in arranging clinical rotations! And unfortunately you generally can't trust your school administration to give you any unbiased information to help you out. They have a vested interest in keeping their rotations set up as they are. And if you are applying ACGME they will most likely not have any idea how to advise you and what kinds of rotational experiences would be beneficial for you.

My school had a "core rotation" site experience for 3rd year and then I primarily arranged my 4th year rotations. When I was looking for a core site for 3rd year, I didn't pay as much attention to the specific hospital or location, I chose it based on who was going to be my rotations coordinator. After I had a chance to talk to her, she was the ONLY person at the school who got excited when I started bringing up possibilities for non-standard, distant, or reach-type rotations. And it turned out to be the best decision I made in medical school because she took her position seriously to be an advocate for me, even when the main campus didn't want to approve my international rotation and some other things they didn't find important.

Long post I guess, sorry. DO rotations are hard because you don't know enough at the time to know how/if they are deficient unless you are the kind of person who questions everything and then is willing to do something about it

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I want your advice on this.

We have some rotation coordinators from each site comping to visit our school later this year. What types of questions should I ask them? I have some in mind, but I'm not sure if they are the 'right questions' per say.
 
Every DO student should be concerned with the state of clinical education. And it's not even unique to the newish schools. Even the "established" schools have tons of issues. It is an endemic problem, and is hurting DOs in the match. I've heard residency PDs site variability in DO clinical ed as reason to be skeptical of their ability to excel day one of residency - even DOs from the same school have major disparities in terms of there clinical training.

The state of clinical education at osteopathic schools is so bad, I can't recommend in good conscience you attend a DO school unless you absolutely have too. (And I am a 4th year DO student for what it's worth)
Eh, our grads have a pretty strong reputation at many of the university teaching hospitals in New England. That's where I want to stay, so that's all I care about.
 
It's a huge dichotomy where doctors are largely trained in an academic environment yet the large majority of them practice in the community doing bread and butter. I have yet to hear a good reason for why this is so heavily emphasized.

Because every physician sees rare/atypical presentation of disease in their lifetime. Experience in teritary center versus lack of experience in "zebra" thing could be the difference between accurately recognize a case of CADASIL in a young woman with recurrent seizure or you know, just peg it off to seizure.

Medical students experience a surprising amount of zebras.

Now, you don't need a top 40 hospital to train a competent physician and most program directors recognize that, but it's easy to see how better clinicial training lays an important foundation and absolutely helps in one's career.

To deny that it's as important as it is is just digging yourself in the sand.
 
Because every physician sees rare/atypical presentation of disease in their lifetime. Experience in teritary center versus lack of experience in "zebra" thing could be the difference between accurately recognize a case of CADASIL in a young woman with recurrent seizure or you know, just peg it off to seizure.

Medical students experience a surprising amount of zebras.

Now, you don't need a top 40 hospital to train a competent physician and most program directors recognize that, but it's easy to see how better clinicial training lays an important foundation and absolutely helps in one's career.

To deny that it's as important as it is is just digging yourself in the sand.

I'm not saying no academic exposure but that it is over emphasized. Medical students are so early in their clinical career that claiming that they need to see lots of zebras because someday in the future they may have a patient with the same zebra presentation doesn't add up.

For most medical students it could be more valuable to learn the community physician's thought process in how they spot zebras and how they manage the bread and butter, particularly as a 3rd year just beingintroduced to the day to day of the clinical environment. I've worked with a lot of physicians and when a zebra is suspected I've heard way more references to research and case studies than to something they saw on a rotation one time as a 3rd year.
 
but it's easy to see how better clinicial training lays an important foundation and absolutely helps in one's career.

Also want to point out that I never said that good clinical training isn't important. It is hugely important and honestly probably a lot more important than the pre-clinical years. I'm just not convinced that doing all your rotations in a large academic center is necessarily "better"
 
I'm not saying no academic exposure but that it is over emphasized. Medical students are so early in their clinical career that claiming that they need to see lots of zebras because someday in the future they may have a patient with the same zebra presentation doesn't add up.

For most medical students it could be more valuable to learn the community physician's thought process in how they spot zebras and how they manage the bread and butter, particularly as a 3rd year just beingintroduced to the day to day of the clinical environment. I've worked with a lot of physicians and when a zebra is suspected I've heard way more references to research and case studies than to something they saw on a rotation one time as a 3rd year.

I think you have to actually be burned a few times/seen the trainwreck "transfer from outside hospital" patients before you begin to appreciate the merits of being in an academic centre v. community setting.

Half of the benefit of training in an academic environment is that it forces you to become a clinician who is curious and constantly thinks critically because that's the culture you started your career in and the patient population you work with demands it. Even reading literature regularly and staying up to date on developments in the field is is more strongly emphasised in academia vis-à-vis community hospitals and it pans out when you look at outcomes.

Even if you're probably gonna go the community route, depending on your setting you may still end up being the final authority on how a patient's presentation is managed (this is especially true in fields like EM). Learning in an environment where people are always investigating and pushing the boundaries of their respective fields imprints on you whether you realise it or not, and you end up carrying that into your community practise.
 
I'm a Third year DO student at one of the top osteopathic schools and to say that my clinical education is on par with allopathic schools or even preparing me to excel at an audition rotation or a residency would be disingenuous. I will complete my entire 3rd year of clinical training without setting foot in a hospital(outside of my anesthesia elective rotation). I will have zero experience in rounding on patients, and zero experience in understanding how a hospital works. As it stands now I'll have to set up one of my early 4th year rotations in a hospital so that I can gain some experience on what it is like so I don't look like a fool on my audition rotations. Yes I'm sure I can still match and get into a decent program, plenty of people have done it before but I do feel it is a handicap.
 
I'm a Third year DO student at one of the top osteopathic schools and to say that my clinical education is on par with allopathic schools or even preparing me to excel at an audition rotation or a residency would be disingenuous. I will complete my entire 3rd year of clinical training without setting foot in a hospital(outside of my anesthesia elective rotation). I will have zero experience in rounding on patients, and zero experience in understanding how a hospital works. As it stands now I'll have to set up one of my early 4th year rotations in a hospital so that I can gain some experience on what it is like so I don't look like a fool on my audition rotations. Yes I'm sure I can still match and get into a decent program, plenty of people have done it before but I do feel it is a handicap.
You are not serious! Are you?
 
I'm a Third year DO student at one of the top osteopathic schools and to say that my clinical education is on par with allopathic schools or even preparing me to excel at an audition rotation or a residency would be disingenuous. I will complete my entire 3rd year of clinical training without setting foot in a hospital(outside of my anesthesia elective rotation). I will have zero experience in rounding on patients, and zero experience in understanding how a hospital works. As it stands now I'll have to set up one of my early 4th year rotations in a hospital so that I can gain some experience on what it is like so I don't look like a fool on my audition rotations. Yes I'm sure I can still match and get into a decent program, plenty of people have done it before but I do feel it is a handicap.

It's a handicap but it can be overcame.
 
I think you have to actually be burned a few times/seen the trainwreck "transfer from outside hospital" patients before you begin to appreciate the merits of being in an academic centre v. community setting.

Half of the benefit of training in an academic environment is that it forces you to become a clinician who is curious and constantly thinks critically because that's the culture you started your career in and the patient population you work with demands it. Even reading literature regularly and staying up to date on developments in the field is is more strongly emphasised in academia vis-à-vis community hospitals and it pans out when you look at outcomes.

Even if you're probably gonna go the community route, depending on your setting you may still end up being the final authority on how a patient's presentation is managed (this is especially true in fields like EM). Learning in an environment where people are always investigating and pushing the boundaries of their respective fields imprints on you whether you realise it or not, and you end up carrying that into your community practise.

And I agree developing that way of thinking is critical, but thinking this is isolated to academic medicine or major tertiary or quaternary referral centers is disengenous.
 
You're school is screwing you. I've only ever heard of this happening at SOMA. I actually don't know how you get through a surgery rotation without going into a hospital.
I think even SOMA has a couple 3rd year electives where you can do rotations anywhere you want, and there are plenty of teaching hospitals around the country who take 3rd years for core rotations and electives. You'd have to go out of your way to get those experiences, though.
 
Both of my surgery rotations are at surgical centers, both of my IM rotations are outpatient and one of them being rural, My pediatric rotation was outpatient, and we aren't allowed to have an EM rotation during third year, it has to be done 4th year unless you are in the EM track. I know it can be overcome. I'm not happy but unfortunately it is the way it has worked out for me so far. At this point I'm just trying to learn as much as i can in the setting that I am placed. The point of the post was not for pity, it was to simply to point out that even in a great DO school the clinical education can be less than stellar.
 
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I think even SOMA has a couple 3rd year electives where you can do rotations anywhere you want, and there are plenty of teaching hospitals around the country who take 3rd years for core rotations and electives. You'd have to go out of your way to get those experiences, though.

I went to SOMA and I never once heard of anything even close to this.

I know it isn't the norm. I just had a 4th year tell me to my face that he wasn't in a hospital during 3rd year. I was more just sharing a n=1 as that is the only time I've ever heard of someone not being in a hospital at all during cores.
 
I know it isn't the norm. I just had a 4th year tell me to my face that he wasn't in a hospital during 3rd year. I was more just sharing a n=1 as that is the only time I've ever heard of someone not being in a hospital at all during cores.

That's unacceptable. Bad on that guy for putting up with that
 
That's unacceptable. Bad on that guy for putting up with that

Yeah he didn't seem like the assertive type honestly. I think most DO rotations are probably completely fine, it's just that worst 10% that drag the rest of them down and give a stigma. The solution is something schools won't do, and that is cut class sizes. Sorry AZCOM but you don't have enough quality spots for 250 students. I love my school because of the small class size.
 
Ah the old classic of a young first year DO student, blissfully denying any problems. The usual cognitive dissonance of "well I don't wanna match at Harvard anyways".

The next phase in the cycle after denial is anger, this usually comes out around M3 year when reality starts to briefly si o in.

It's followed by acceptance, but then (as exemplified in this thread) denial manages to make a strong rebound.

Not sure I understand the point. Anyone attending a DO school knows they're not matching Harvard; that ship sailed the minute they ****ed up their undergrad GPA and/or MCAT.

Clinical training at most DO schools is hot garbage, that's been well established. However, it's pretty remarkable that despite lesser training sites, funding, and admissions statistics; there are still DO schools pumping out higher USMLE scores than some MD schools. Or embarrassing, depending which side you're on.
 
Not sure I understand the point. Anyone attending a DO school knows they're not matching Harvard; that ship sailed the minute they ****ed up their undergrad GPA and/or MCAT.

Clinical training at most DO schools is hot garbage, that's been well established. However, it's pretty remarkable that despite lesser training sites, funding, and admissions statistics; there are still DO schools pumping out higher USMLE scores than some MD schools. Or embarrassing, depending which side you're on.

People like to conveniently forget the truth that many of the newer/low tier MD schools have the same issues with clinical rotations as do DO schools. Also there is the little fact that as of recently COCA now has the same clinical rotation requirements as LCME. Many schools have clinical education issues and it isn't just the DO schools.
 
And I agree developing that way of thinking is critical, but thinking this is isolated to academic medicine or major tertiary or quaternary referral centers is disengenous.

I agree that good teaching and critical thinking-based practice aren't isolated to academic medicine. With that said, within academia it's the expectation that you practice than way. In the community practice styles are far more heterogeneous and far more dependent on context, resources, etc. and you're far more likely to encounter cookbook medicine 2/2 those factors.
 
Not sure I understand the point. Anyone attending a DO school knows they're not matching Harvard; that ship sailed the minute they ****ed up their undergrad GPA and/or MCAT.

Clinical training at most DO schools is hot garbage, that's been well established. However, it's pretty remarkable that despite lesser training sites, funding, and admissions statistics; there are still DO schools pumping out higher USMLE scores than some MD schools. Or embarrassing, depending which side you're on.

USMLE scores aren't the benchmark we should be measuring ourselves by, match lists are. A standardised test is just that, a standardised test and regardless of what context you learn in clinically if you put in enough hours you can score well on the USMLE. That's why PDs don't give a **** about IMGs who score in the 250s - the test is only one part of the package and is pretty irrelevant once you actually get to the job and need to hit the ground running and function well.
 
I think even SOMA has a couple 3rd year electives where you can do rotations anywhere you want, and there are plenty of teaching hospitals around the country who take 3rd years for core rotations and electives. You'd have to go out of your way to get those experiences, though.
People at my school wouldn't be happy if they had to set up their 3rd year rotations... As much as I don't like LCME, I am glad they try to keep school officials in order.

Even FM at my school has 3-wk inpatient...
 
USMLE scores aren't the benchmark we should be measuring ourselves by, match lists are. A standardised test is just that, a standardised test and regardless of what context you learn in clinically if you put in enough hours you can score well on the USMLE. That's why PDs don't give a **** about IMGs who score in the 250s - the test is only one part of the package and is pretty irrelevant once you actually get to the job and need to hit the ground running and function well.

I agree, as would most people. But board scores are currently the biggest part of the matching equation -- as every annual PD survey happily reminds us of.
 
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USMLE scores aren't the benchmark we should be measuring ourselves by, match lists are.

Uh no. Match lists are completely subjective, and unfortunately as Azete mentions Step 1 is the biggest variable in matching success and is a completely objective way to compare students, for better or for worse.
 
Uh no. Match lists are completely subjective, and unfortunately as Azete mentions Step 1 is the biggest variable in matching success and is a completely objective way to compare students, for better or for worse.

The objective of medical school isn't passing Step 1, it's getting into residency.
 
The objective of medical school isn't passing Step 1, it's getting into residency.

Yes, but that is objectively shown in match rates. Not in match lists. Just the list of different places people are going is worthless when determining how good a school is at getting people into residency. No one ever claimed the objective of medical school is Step 1....
 
Yes, but that is objectively shown in match rates. Not in match lists. Just the list of different places people are going is worthless when determining how good a school is at getting people into residency. No one ever claimed the objective of medical school is Step 1....

And the entirety of this process is subjective dude. But let's just agree to disagree on this one.
 
Seriously man, just ignore him. He's just here to get a reaction.
Are you serious? Southern surgeon is probably one of the most valued posters on this site. He is the furthest thing from a troll and he takes everything extremely seriously (maybe too much, I wouldn't mind some more jokes personally). You're being ridiculous.
 
The objective of medical school isn't passing Step 1, it's getting into residency.

Those match lists are confounded by multiple things, people liking programs that are not considered that competitive or matching into programs based on location. You cannot use match lists as a measure for a DO student's success.

However, high USMLE scores are highly valued by PDs and give people options at residency. As said before by multiple members, even if you get a 250 and you decided on family medicine, "there is no such thing as a wasted USMLE score." It because that high score gave you options at residency, and you are able to pick and choose. You cannot say the same for those who scored lower, because they are forced to pick whatever they can get into.
 
I want your advice on this.

We have some rotation coordinators from each site comping to visit our school later this year. What types of questions should I ask them? I have some in mind, but I'm not sure if they are the 'right questions' per say.
I'm a bit far out (applying for fellowship this year) but I'll try to answer based on what came us as far as I remember for my rotations.

I would want to know at least some of the answers to the following:
-(How many) did many of your students use VSAS to schedule rotations? And any difficulty with getting the required paperwork?
-Are there any subspecialty rotations you have had difficulty with scheduling at the core hospital or associated facilities?
-Do you know people regionally in ACGME programs (although I guess this part will become moot soon with the merger) who are willing to take students for sub-Is or similar rotations?
-Maybe ask "what is the most unique rotation you and one of your students has been able to arrange", will give you an idea of how far they are willing to go...

And I think a general "question" or impression is how they feel towards their rotating students: do they know where the 4th years matched/what fields they are going in to? Do they seem proud?

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And match lists prove what about getting into residency?

Those match lists are confounded by multiple things, people liking programs that are not considered that competitive or matching into programs based on location. You cannot use match lists as a measure for a DO student's success.

However, high USMLE scores are highly valued by PDs and give people options at residency. As said before by multiple members, even if you get a 250 and you decided on family medicine, "there is no such thing as a wasted USMLE score." It because that high score gave you options at residency, and you are able to pick and choose. You cannot say the same for those who scored lower, because they are forced to pick whatever they can get into.

I think you guys are both highly downplaying the degree to which things other than board scores factor in. USMLE scores are highly valued, nobody would ever dispute that, but there are reasons why people with 250s still don't get offered interviews in certain places.

PDs don't read most applications, and most extensively use filters to tease out the applicants they desire. In reality, whether or not you get an interview boils down to alot of things - Step score, geography, school prestige and a given PDs relationship with the faculty at your home institution. A 240 from Temple will get an interview at Penn IM before a 240 from Downstate will simply because of personal factors. A 230 from Harvard will for the same reasons. A strong recommendation from a letter writer from someone a PD knows will trump a 240 from a school a PD doesn't recognise more often than not.

Yes, match lists have alot of confounders like applicant preference, applicant competitiveness, etc. But looking at match lists over the course of several years can give you a pretty good idea of where students from a particular school tend to end up, and you can tailor your expectations accordingly. If you have aspirations of training on the west coast, going to a school that has never matched anyone on the west coast in the last 5 years is probably gonna leave you disappointed. If you want to be a big-wig academic, going to a school that heavily matches at community programs probably will leave you disappointed. If 50 people in the last 5 years have match ortho, but none have made it to top programmes the likelihood that you will is probably low. Sure, take each match with a grain of salt, but there is quite a bit of useful info to be gleaned out of a match list if you know what to look for.


Yes, alot of how you match is based on you. But alot of it is also based on factors that you aren't even remotely aware of. It's not accidental that match lists tend to self-assort along the same lines as medical school tier. Don't be fooled into thinking this is a meritocracy.
 
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People like to conveniently forget the truth that many of the newer/low tier MD schools have the same issues with clinical rotations as do DO schools. Also there is the little fact that as of recently COCA now has the same clinical rotation requirements as LCME. Many schools have clinical education issues and it isn't just the DO schools.

I often hear that some newer MD school have issue with clinical rotations, can we have some concrete examples? I am not aware of any LCME school that does not have major affilation with a large ACGME hospital.

Along the same vein, I am not familiar with any DO school that has the sole partnership with any large teaching hospital. Please correct my ignorance if you know any.
 
I'd say looking at last years match data, the fact that if you look at the "ultra-competitive" specialties like derm, ortho, nsg, plastics, vascular etc - there are still more IMGs, both U.S and foreign, that are getting these spots compared to DO students. Is this because DO students tend to have a preference for primary care? Possibly. Or is it because DOs have lower USMLE scores? or less research? or less experience making them underperform on Sub-Is? I honestly don't know, but if you look at the NRMP data from last year, it's pretty evident that foreign MDs are getting more of these spots than DOs are.
 
I think you guys are both highly downplaying the degree to which things other than board scores factor in. USMLE scores are highly valued, nobody would ever dispute that, but there are reasons why people with 250s still don't get offered interviews in certain places.

PDs don't read most applications, and most extensively use filters to tease out the applicants they desire. In reality, whether or not you get an interview boils down to alot of things - Step score, geography, school prestige and a given PDs relationship with the faculty at your home institution. A 240 from Temple will get an interview at Penn IM before a 240 from Downstate will simply because of personal factors. A 230 from Harvard will for the same reasons. A strong recommendation from a letter writer from someone a PD knows will trump a 240 from a school a PD doesn't recognise more often than not.

Were not going to MD schools, we are going to DO schools...

DO schools have none of those advantages you have mentioned in your example.

A DO schools reputation doesn't mean squat to ACGME PDs. Look at the anesthesia program at MGH. They took people from 3 different schools, none of with have been around for longer than 40 years. AZCOM isn't even in that region either and they have 2 students in their program. Yes, most programs use a filter for location because applicants that apply to their residencies tend to be originally from that region (its not just simply because their medical school is in that region). However, there are others that don't focus too much on region and look for the top students they can find (i.e. meaning top board scores and such), MGH is an example of this.

However, I would make a heavy wager that their board scores actually got them their farther than most other factors. I'll give another example. There was a student who match anesthesia from WVSOM around 2012 to JHU's anesthesia program. This was from an excel sheet that showed where they matched and the factors that mattered. He stated on the work sheet that he didn't rotate at their program, but his USMLE scores were very high. Now this person matched from a school with no real rep. with no audition at JHU. The only other factors that could have contributed is 1. board scores, 2. audition at another prestigious institution with an LOR from another PD, 3. excellent interview.

I'm not trying to say the board scores is all important and all the rest is just unimportant. What I'm saying is that those who match well will have high board scores, this correlation is strong. The reason why RVU has such a strong match list is that they actually teach towards the boards and force their student to take them. It is definitely not their reputation because the school has only been around for 10 years.

High scores who don't care about prestige and people who don't realize the important of taking the USMLE will match in places that others would consider "not competitive." This can skew the match list to make it look like the students aren't doing well in the match.
 
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Are you serious? Southern surgeon is probably one of the most valued posters on this site. He is the furthest thing from a troll and he takes everything extremely seriously (maybe too much, I wouldn't mind some more jokes personally). You're being ridiculous.
I partially agree, but it seems unhelpful that SS and MT frequently peruse the DO forums for no other purpose than to remind DO's of our inferiority. We get it. Our rotations (largely) suck. We're not going to match IM at a top 10. I've lately become of the opinion that if someone wants to think that the degree is equal and they just need to work really hard then let them think that. They can learn the hard truth down the road.
 
This whole thread is a bit ridiculous as rotations vary widely from school to school and even within that school. I'm a DO and had amazing rotations- I can't complain about a single one. I had ownership, rounded on patients, had responsibilities, performed procedures, delivered babies, first assisted on countless surgeries, and had amazing preceptors who wanted to teach. I was in both academic hospitals and rural communities. I didn't need to move and the only rotations that were away from my home were auditions. The only rotations that I had to set up were my audition/away rotations.
Again, it varies greatly among all medical schools. As I'm sure there are MD students out there who had awful clinical experiences. Talk to 3rd and 4th year students at the schools you're interested in and take it from there. Good luck.


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I'm a Third year DO student at one of the top osteopathic schools and to say that my clinical education is on par with allopathic schools or even preparing me to excel at an audition rotation or a residency would be disingenuous. I will complete my entire 3rd year of clinical training without setting foot in a hospital(outside of my anesthesia elective rotation). I will have zero experience in rounding on patients, and zero experience in understanding how a hospital works. As it stands now I'll have to set up one of my early 4th year rotations in a hospital so that I can gain some experience on what it is like so I don't look like a fool on my audition rotations. Yes I'm sure I can still match and get into a decent program, plenty of people have done it before but I do feel it is a handicap.
That sucks man. It's a handicap for sure, but fwiw I would think that by 4th year learning the hospital and residency culture will come pretty quickly for you, especially with 3rd year growing pains out of the way. Even after my 1st month of inpatient with a residency I feel like I'm starting to get the feel for that side of things (but my clinical skills obviously still suck anus)
 
I partially agree, but it seems unhelpful that SS and MT frequently peruse the DO forums for no other purpose than to remind DO's of our inferiority. We get it. Our rotations (largely) suck. We're not going to match IM at a top 10. I've lately become of the opinion that if someone wants to think that the degree is equal and they just need to work really hard then let them think that. They can learn the hard truth down the road.
We can have differing opinions on the "helpfulness" of their posts. I find them extremely helpful as a means to shoot holes in the osteopathic propaganda machine. They are also quite accurate and realistic in their views. I do accept your point though because it's definitely subjective. However, calling them a troll is disengenious and is a classic example of slinging mud just because you disagree with someone.
 
I partially agree, but it seems unhelpful that SS and MT frequently peruse the DO forums for no other purpose than to remind DO's of our inferiority. We get it. Our rotations (largely) suck. We're not going to match IM at a top 10. I've lately become of the opinion that if someone wants to think that the degree is equal and they just need to work really hard then let them think that. They can learn the hard truth down the road.

I think, at least here on SDN, that DO students for the most part are aware that the degrees are not equal and BECAUSE of that they need to work harder. This mentality to work harder is unfortunately though not the norm. There are very few students I know of from my institution that actually crank out research, spend 10+ hours studying everyday, or even attempt to go shadow at our clinic. During the clinical years, students have been notorious for leaving early, arriving late, coming unprepared, even not showing up at all because they got too hammered the night before. I personally think it's an attitude problem - "We can't make it, so why bother trying?" - If your application hits the desk of a PD and your numbers, publications, LoRs, and if you do a Sub-I, work ethic, surpasses those of other MD applicants, it will likely make the decision much harder for the PD.
 
I partially agree, but it seems unhelpful that SS and MT frequently peruse the DO forums for no other purpose than to remind DO's of our inferiority. We get it. Our rotations (largely) suck. We're not going to match IM at a top 10. I've lately become of the opinion that if someone wants to think that the degree is equal and they just need to work really hard then let them think that. They can learn the hard truth down the road.

We can have differing opinions on the "helpfulness" of their posts. I find them extremely helpful as a means to shoot holes in the osteopathic propaganda machine. They are also quite accurate and realistic in their views. I do accept your point though because it's definitely subjective. However, calling them a troll is disengenious and is a classic example of slinging mud just because you disagree with someone.

While I would say there is some purpose in "shooting holes in the propaganda machine" as you say, that's really not my goal or intent.

My major issue is when people give objectively poor advice and/or display a bury their head in the sand mentality. Like when DO first years keep posting about how they are "sure" that any disadvantage or bias is overblown. Or when a certain unmatched DO who was lucky to scramble into FP insists on popping his head into every thread to remind everyone how great his residency program (psst...they're an IVY LEAGUE...and they matched someone from HARVARD y'all...can you believe it???) is and how it's proof that DOs are gonna do just fine.

I think current DO students (and especially DO applicants) would be better served with a more accurate presentation of the situation at hand.
 
While I would say there is some purpose in "shooting holes in the propaganda machine" as you say, that's really not my goal or intent.

My major issue is when people give objectively poor advice and/or display a bury their head in the sand mentality. Like when DO first years keep posting about how they are "sure" that any disadvantage or bias is overblown. Or when a certain unmatched DO who was lucky to scramble into FP insists on popping his head into every thread to remind everyone how great his residency program (psst...they're an IVY LEAGUE...and they matched someone from HARVARD y'all...can you believe it???) is and how it's proof that DOs are gonna do just fine.

I think current DO students (and especially DO applicants) would be better served with a more accurate presentation of the situation at hand.
Agree 100% with my learned colleague.

SDNers should not come here for hugs and kisses, but realistic advice. SS provides the latter. If he's blunt like a surgeon, that's because, well, he's a surgeon.
 
While I would say there is some purpose in "shooting holes in the propaganda machine" as you say, that's really not my goal or intent.

My major issue is when people give objectively poor advice and/or display a bury their head in the sand mentality. Like when DO first years keep posting about how they are "sure" that any disadvantage or bias is overblown. Or when a certain unmatched DO who was lucky to scramble into FP insists on popping his head into every thread to remind everyone how great his residency program (psst...they're an IVY LEAGUE...and they matched someone from HARVARD y'all...can you believe it???) is and how it's proof that DOs are gonna do just fine.

I think current DO students (and especially DO applicants) would be better served with a more accurate presentation of the situation at hand.
I guess my experience with that certain person is different, as they've been incredibly helpful over the years. It sucked that they didn't match, but I'm genuinely happy that they've had a very rewarding residency experience. Something not everyone can say they've had.

Whether you intervene or not, most of us DOs know what a **** train we're all on so it doesn't improve the experience any to be reminded frequently. As I said, those that don't know will figure it out soon enough. I'm sure I've been jaded from the last few years but most of my friends in school feel the same that we've long abandoned the quest for prestige and are just looking for a job that we are happy with that lets us live our lives. Anyone who cares that much about where they train should have competed in ug enough to not have to worry about DO or MD
 
Agree 100% with my learned colleague.

SDNers should not come here for hugs and kisses, but realistic advice. SS provides the latter. If he's blunt like a surgeon, that's because, well, he's a surgeon.
Who here is looking for hugs and kisses? You may have this forum confused with the depths of naivete that is pre-allo and all of the safe space-seeking SJWs
 
Along the same vein, I am not familiar with any DO school that has the sole partnership with any large teaching hospital. Please correct my ignorance if you know any.

Mine. Now it's not the biggest hospital in the world but we have true home programs in most specialties including multiple surgical subs and it is a real teaching hospital. As an example on the MD side the new school at Washington State has no major teaching hospital affiliation and has largely preceptor based rotations according to their website. Extremely similar to most DO schools. Don't assume that every MD school has an affiliation to a major teaching hospital, especially seeing as COCA and LCME have the same clinical rotation requirements.
there are still more IMGs, both U.S and foreign

No there isn't, when you include AOA programs (because the vast majority of DO students pursuing those fields go for AOA spots) there are a lot more DOs matching those fields than IMGs. When you're talking about competitive fields you can't just ignore the AOA match because most competitive DO applicants forego the ACGME match from the get go. You also can't include the FMGs who match those spots because the are often coming from elite level foreign medical schools, or were already attendings in their home countries.
 
No there isn't, when you include AOA programs (because the vast majority of DO students pursuing those fields go for AOA spots) there are a lot more DOs matching those fields than IMGs. When you're talking about competitive fields you can't just ignore the AOA match because most competitive DO applicants forego the ACGME match from the get go. You also can't include the FMGs who match those spots because the are often coming from elite level foreign medical schools, or were already attendings in their home countries.

You're right on that - being apart of the 2020 merger, I'm getting used to the idea that these AOA programs aren't going to exist any longer. But, it does then bring up the concern which has been beaten to death on this forum that DO students that had AOA as an option, now will not and will have to compete against top tier MD students for those spots - including FMGs. With all the fine print that's written into the merger details for these AOA residencies, what's the incentive for them to consider a DO anymore if it means they can get an MD w/ more research background or letters from more acclaimed faculty? Data that would be interesting to see is just where exactly are the FMGs coming from - how many of them are coming from the Caribbean diploma mills?
 
now will not and will have to compete against top tier MD students for those spots -

Lol, no they won't. They will be competing with the middle of the pack MDs who are desperate for a spot. The top MD applicants aren't going to be trying to do residency in some community hospital.

On top of that, people really do underestimate just how good the top DO students are. Most of them can go toe to toe with most MD students in the country.

Our home programs have essentially said they will not truly consider MDs. The bias goes both ways. Everyone was up in arms by that long ago because the ortho program at Broward in Florida got 400 applicants this year, most likely full of MD and IMG applicants, they still matched 3 DOs to all of their spots.

Will some MDs get former AOA spots? Absolutely. Will all these programs stop taking the stellar DO candidates they previously were taking? No. The merger will no doubt make things more competitive, but the sky isn't falling like some will try and proclaim.

Data that would be interesting to see is just where exactly are the FMGs coming from - how many of them are coming from the Caribbean diploma mills?

Just look at the match lists of those schools..... Ross and SGU produce it regularly. Very few Carib grads are getting into those fields. Like 3 out of 850 grads.
 
Can someone please explain to me how clinical rotations are assigned? I've read it's by class rank at some schools. Do DO schools vary in terms of how they assign the "top" clinical rotation sites to their 3rd years?
 
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