Can you finish your residency with the military?

[formerF1DO]

I know of a young pgy2 who was fired in the beginning of pgy2.
US medical graduate, US citizen.
Can this person enlist in the military and finish the residency in the military and graduate?

I ask because I knew of a doctor years ago who didn't finish one's residency with the Navy, worked as a flight surgeon for decades and finished a different residency as a civilian later.

Thanks, just trying to help a devastated young doctor.

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[DrMetal]

I know of a young pgy2 who was fired in the beginning of pgy2.
US medical graduate, US citizen.
Can this person enlist in the military and finish the residency in the military and graduate?

I ask because I knew of a doctor years ago who didn't finish one's residency with the Navy, worked as a flight surgeon for decades and finished a different residency as a civilian later.

Thanks, just trying to help a devastated young doctor.

That's a firm 'No.' We have plenty of medical students/PGY1s in the military pipeline, all of whom are applying for PGY2 spots (and no where near enough spots to accommodate all). There's absolutely no reason for a military residency to absorb a civilian (much less one that has had problems).

If he really wants to, he might be able to join the military and serve first as a GMO for a few years, then apply to military residencies. But even that's a long shot (again, we have plenty of HPSPers/PGYs1/GMOs, no need to absorb more).

Why'd he get fired?

 

[TheTruckGuy]

I think I heard of one person who did a civilian surgical residency for 2 years, hated it, left the program and joined up as a GMO. Served 3 years as a GMO, then applied to a military residency and got in. So, as DrMetal said, that'd be the only way I could think of it happening.

There are some residency slots that do go unfilled each year, though they are very few and far between. I know of an Army derm spot a few years ago that went unfilled. But it was quickly filled by someone who matched into family med - resulting in that family med spot remaining unfilled. So it's possible to get in that way as well, I suppose - trying to sneak into whatever residency is left over.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Does he have an unrestricted license to practice in a US State?

 

[formerF1DO]

Does he have an unrestricted license to practice in a US State?

Yes, in 2015, I have known a PGY 2 fired IM resident who was doing locums primary care clinic work in rural areas. Then, he got into an Occupation Medicine residency and completed that.
Could a fired resident still work this way in 2019?
That is one way.

 

[formerF1DO]

That's a firm 'No.' We have plenty of medical students/PGY1s in the military pipeline, all of whom are applying for PGY2 spots (and no where near enough spots to accommodate all). There's absolutely no reason for a military residency to absorb a civilian (much less one that has had problems).

If he really wants to, he might be able to join the military and serve first as a GMO for a few years, then apply to military residencies. But even that's a long shot (again, we have plenty of HPSPers/PGYs1/GMOs, no need to absorb more).

Why'd he get fired?

Thank you for your answer.
I think the reason for dismissal always ends up being, "this, this, this, this, and you smell bad and you're late, etc."
I don't know the whole story, but it was a combination of calling out sick during IM inpatient rotation, calling out for family deaths, and their perception that the quality of this person's work is not up to par.

I actually never knew the whole story of why someone got fired, because folks tend to give only their side of the story, and people are kind of secretive about how they got into another residency, etc.

Thru out my career, I knew of an IM resident who got fired for perceived subpar work, a FM resident who got fired for falsifying a progress note, a psych resident who got fired for not showing up to overnight on-call, a neurosurgery resident who got fired for dating.​

 

[formerF1DO]

I think I heard of one person who did a civilian surgical residency for 2 years, hated it, left the program and joined up as a GMO. Served 3 years as a GMO, then applied to a military residency and got in. So, as DrMetal said, that'd be the only way I could think of it happening.

There are some residency slots that do go unfilled each year, though they are very few and far between. I know of an Army derm spot a few years ago that went unfilled. But it was quickly filled by someone who matched into family med - resulting in that family med spot remaining unfilled. So it's possible to get in that way as well, I suppose - trying to sneak into whatever residency is left over.

Thanks for your answer. Perhaps this may be a hopeful pathway.

 

[formerF1DO]

By the way, what can a lawyer do for a fired resident? I have never heard of someone hiring a lawyer and getting back into the same residency. I assume the residency program never pays enough money to compensate for what money a resident could have made from graduating and working as a board certified physician.
Are the lawyers essentially taking one's money and offering temporary false hope?

 

[formerF1DO]

I work part time at the VA, and I know VA attendings who call out sick routinely, every month.
It doesn't feel fair to the resident physician.

 

[Cooperd0g]

I work part time at the VA, and I know VA attendings who call out sick routinely, every month.
It doesn't feel fair to the resident physician.

Don’t get me started on how ridiculous many programs tend to treat resident physicians as if they are children/idiots/slave labor.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

By the way, what can a lawyer do for a fired resident? I have never heard of someone hiring a lawyer and getting back into the same residency. I assume the residency program never pays enough money to compensate for what money a resident could have made from graduating and working as a board certified physician.
Are the lawyers essentially taking one's money and offering temporary false hope?

It depends on the case. At issue might be whether there was reasonable cause for "firing" (or not offering a new contract), whether there was any notice of performance deficiency, whether there was an effort to remedy deficiency, counseling, a performance improvement program, whether institutional due process was followed.

The facts of the case are important, whether the deficiencies in this particular person's case were treated in a materially different way than those of other residents, etc. Given the consequences of losing a residency job, difficulty in securing alternative training and employment, difficulty in becoming board-eligible and having an opportunity to practice at all as a physician, you cannot just hide behind an "employment at will" claim. The residency match process pretty much puts the lie to that as does the fact that a physician cannot be eligible to sit for a specialty board exam without the written approval of an ACGME-approved residency program director. So one might infer that with such obvious restrictions to employment and consequences to the loss thereof, special protections should also apply.

 

[IlDestriero]

I work part time at the VA, and I know VA attendings who call out sick routinely, every month.
It doesn't feel fair to the resident physician.

Sounds like he/she could have had a great career at the VA.

 

[pgg]

We get this question a few times per year. Usually right after match time when someone needs a spot. Same for mid-year firings for academic or legal problems.

It's always a little insulting when someone assumes the military will welcome these people. We don't have room for them and we don't want them. I know you mean well, but we're not a dumping ground.


If he has an unrestricted state license he MAY be able to join as a GMO and work 2 or 3 years before applying for an inservice residency. However, many states require 2 years of GME, so depending on where you are, your resident friend may not even be eligible. Depending on why he was fired, licensure might be a problem even if all the state requires is a completed intern year and USMLE 1-3.

Even then though, that's not a sure path to admission to a military residency program. There's a match, and prior dismissal from a residency program is a hurdle. And given the DHA changes coming to military medicine, it's hard to know what will even be available several years from now when he'd be applying.

 

[DoctorDoom]

I work part time at the VA, and I know VA attendings who call out sick routinely, every month.
It doesn't feel fair to the resident physician.

They are attendings and federal employees, not residents. Different spanks for different ranks.

 

[flightdoc09]

It's always a little insulting when someone assumes the military will welcome these people. We don't have room for them and we don't want them. I know you mean well, but we're not a dumping ground.

Talk about insulting, I was recently asked by a young 1stLt if I went to medical school. And it wasn't mean't to be an insult, like I did something stupid and he asked if I actually went through medical school, it's just that (at least on the green side) a lot of folks think we're not real doctors. Like we went to an MOS school or something. Granted they do see their fair share of IDCs, and they call corpsmen "doc," but still.

 

[pgg]

Talk about insulting, I was recently asked by a young 1stLt if I went to medical school. And it wasn't mean't to be an insult, like I did something stupid and he asked if I actually went through medical school, it's just that (at least on the green side) a lot of folks think we're not real doctors. Like we went to an MOS school or something. Granted they do see their fair share of IDCs, and they call corpsmen "doc," but still.

Medicine is awash with people wearing white coats. NPs, PAs, pharmacists, CRNAs, nutritionists, respiratory therapists, food service specialists, and people who think the thermostat is set too low.

When I got credentialed at the VA a while back, I had to get an entrance physical done. The NP who did it introduced herself as "doctor". There are too many people in healthcare pretending to be more than they are.

Too many administrators with ulterior motives for blurring those lines. Fabricating terms like "provider" to gradually make everyone interchangeable, to deceive patients into thinking that one "provider" is just as good as another, so the hospital has cover to spend less money to provide lower quality care.

As you point out, the Marines see a lot of Corpsmen, IDCs, and PAs, all of whom they call "doc" ... there's a lot of history, camaraderie, and shared suffering behind that, so it doesn't bother me. Of course, they called me a "Battalion Surgeon" back in my GMO days when I was a couple weeks out of a non-surgical internship.

It's probably a good thing that 1stLt cared enough to ask who was actually taking care of him. It's not a patient's fault the system has been carefully and consistently lying to him for so long. Don't be insulted by the fact that he's been fooled, be angry at the lazy credential-inflating pretender ****s who fooled him.

 

[formerF1DO]

We get this question a few times per year. Usually right after match time when someone needs a spot. Same for mid-year firings for academic or legal problems.

It's always a little insulting when someone assumes the military will welcome these people. We don't have room for them and we don't want them. I know you mean well, but we're not a dumping ground.


If he has an unrestricted state license he MAY be able to join as a GMO and work 2 or 3 years before applying for an inservice residency. However, many states require 2 years of GME, so depending on where you are, your resident friend may not even be eligible. Depending on why he was fired, licensure might be a problem even if all the state requires is a completed intern year and USMLE 1-3.

Even then though, that's not a sure path to admission to a military residency program. There's a match, and prior dismissal from a residency program is a hurdle. And given the DHA changes coming to military medicine, it's hard to know what will even be available several years from now when he'd be applying.

Thank you for your reply. I did not mean to insult the military. I apologize.
May I ask 1 question.
Would serving as a GMO pay enough to pay back medical school loans?
Thank you.

 

[pgg]

Thank you for your reply. I did not mean to insult the military. I apologize.
May I ask 1 question.
Would serving as a GMO pay enough to pay back medical school loans?
Thank you.

No worries, it's a common question here, just grates a little. 🙂


It depends on how big the loans are.

GMOs earn something around $80K per year. That's a very rough ballpark - they get O3 pay and benefits, plus about $15-20K in medical pay, but I haven't added it up in a while. They don't get extra loan payments or forgiveness as part of the package. 99.9% of GMOs have no medical school debt. Some have undergrad debt.

It sure beats being unemployed, of course.

 

[dwb8p]

$95k per year for a brand new GMO stationed in Portsmouth, VA. Civilian equivalent would be at least $105-110k accounting for nontaxed BAH/BAS and zero health insurance costs.

Base (O3 < 2 years): $4,251
BAH (w/o dep): $1,746
BAS: $254
HPO-IP (GMO): $1,666