Canadian Residencies - No requirements?!?!?

[FatKid]

I think I just finally figured something out.

Canadian medical students do not take their MCCQE Part I until May of the fourth year of medical school.

Thus, they have already been accepted into their internships (R1) and residencies (R2+) correct?

So, since I am a Canadian Citizen who attends a U.S. allopathic (M.D.) school, can I apply to Canadian internships and residencies just like all of the Canadian medical students can????

Is the MCCQE Parts I and II just for licensing purposes? Do they have anything to do with getting into internship/residency???

Thanks,

FatKid

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[Giemsa]

I think I just finally figured something out.

Canadian medical students do not take their MCCQE Part I until May of the fourth year of medical school.

Thus, they have already been accepted into their internships (R1) and residencies (R2+) correct?

So, since I am a Canadian Citizen who attends a U.S. allopathic (M.D.) school, can I apply to Canadian internships and residencies just like all of the Canadian medical students can????

Is the MCCQE Parts I and II just for licensing purposes? Do they have anything to do with getting into internship/residency???

Thanks,

FatKid

Correct - you don't need the Part I upfront to apply to CaRMS (as Canadian or US allopathic grad) - in fact, since you apply and interview 6 months before graduating, none of the Canadian grads have it when they apply/do interviews.

 

[FatKid]

Correct - you don't need the Part I upfront to apply to CaRMS (as Canadian or US allopathic grad) - in fact, since you apply and interview 6 months before graduating, none of the Canadian grads have it when they apply/do interviews.

Hello Giemsa,

Is the CaRMS like the ERAS in the US?

Do you separately apply for internship (R1) and residency (R2+)?

I would like to do my internship in the U.S. and then apply to both Canada and the U.S. for residency (R2+)

Will I need to write the MCCQE Part I to do this? Or can I take the MCCQE Part I during my R2 or R3 year?

Thanks for your help and input.

 

[Giemsa]

Hello Giemsa,

Is the CaRMS like the ERAS in the US?

Do you separately apply for internship (R1) and residency (R2+)?

No, in the sense that you apply for residency and then you're done. If you want to match in rads, you match in rads from PGY-1. If you want orthopedic surgery, you match into orthopedic surgery starting from PGY-1. The only other match is for the internal medicine residents in PGY-4 when they all match to subspecialties (family med also has an R4 match, but we're getting pretty esoteric here).

Your first year, your PGY-1 year, is like a rotating internship in that you do rotations in all the different specialties, but you do it knowing that you are a general surgery resident, or a pathology resident, or a psychiatry resident, or whatever. (You don't want to have to do an umbilical vein catheterization on a 600 g newborn - just tell the NICU RN that you're the pathology resident and watch how fast she pages a real pediatrics resident 🙂

I would like to do my internship in the U.S. and then apply to both Canada and the U.S. for residency (R2+)

This isn't going to work well because the main CaRMS match is ONLY for students without ANY prior post-graduate training. If you do that year of internship in the US, you won't qualify for the first round, and will only be allowed to match in the second round. (The second round is what's left over; mostly family med and so forth).

 

[FatKid]

No, in the sense that you apply for residency and then you're done. If you want to match in rads, you match in rads from PGY-1. If you want orthopedic surgery, you match into orthopedic surgery starting from PGY-1. The only other match is for the internal medicine residents in PGY-4 when they all match to subspecialties (family med also has an R4 match, but we're getting pretty esoteric here).

Your first year, your PGY-1 year, is like a rotating internship in that you do rotations in all the different specialties, but you do it knowing that you are a general surgery resident, or a pathology resident, or a psychiatry resident, or whatever. (You don't want to have to do an umbilical vein catheterization on a 600 g newborn - just tell the NICU RN that you're the pathology resident and watch how fast she pages a real pediatrics resident 🙂



This isn't going to work well because the main CaRMS match is ONLY for students without ANY prior post-graduate training. If you do that year of internship in the US, you won't qualify for the first round, and will only be allowed to match in the second round. (The second round is what's left over; mostly family med and so forth).

Hello Giemsa,

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

1. For me, if I am an M4 at a U.S. M.D school, I should be applying NOW (August 2009) for BOTH US AND Canadian residencies.

2. If I match into Canada applying only to Neurosurgery, I am GUARANTEED Neurosurgery. There is no separate "intern" year and "residency" like in the US. They are combined into the same residency program?

3. If I get accepted into a Canadian residency, then I will be automatically removed from the U.S. match?

4. What do you mean by "rank" neurosurgery?

5. My plan is to ONLY apply to Neurosurgery in Canada. I do not want anything else other than Neurosurgery.

6. If I only apply to Neurosurgery https://w1c.e-carms.ca/pdws/jsp/pd.do?d=905&p=p3&m=1 there is no way that I could get anything else in Canada other than those programs on the list correct?

7. If I do not get accepted into any of those programs above, then I am still included in the U.S. match, and can get Neurosurgery in the U.S., like any other U.S. medical student?

Sorry for all these questions, but the people at CaRMS who are "supposed" to know this say "read the website" every time I ask them a question.

 

[MontereyMD]

Fat Kid, are you really in 4th year medical school in the US? The questions that you ask and the state of preparedness for applying to residencies is concerning. Which medical school are you at? If you are at a US Medical School you have access to advisers who should be able to answer your questions. Also the narrow fixation on Neurosurgery and no other back up plan implies that you have not completed any clinical rotations and have not discussed your plans with any Neurosurgeon or have done any Neurosurgery rotations. You should address all your questions to the residents or program director of your Neurosurgery Department and also get a rotation in Neurosurgery if you want that.
I know for certain that Neurosurgery rotations for 4th year medical students at UBC in Vancouver are already filled for the coming 2009-2010 year. You should have applied for a rotation last year. Too late to apply at UBC for this competitive residency. Perhaps your interested in Family Practice?

 

[FatKid]

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[FatKid]

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[FatKid]

Fat Kid, are you really in 4th year medical school in the US? The questions that you ask and the state of preparedness for applying to residencies is concerning. Which medical school are you at? If you are at a US Medical School you have access to advisers who should be able to answer your questions. Also the narrow fixation on Neurosurgery and no other back up plan implies that you have not completed any clinical rotations and have not discussed your plans with any Neurosurgeon or have done any Neurosurgery rotations. You should address all your questions to the residents or program director of your Neurosurgery Department and also get a rotation in Neurosurgery if you want that.
I know for certain that Neurosurgery rotations for 4th year medical students at UBC in Vancouver are already filled for the coming 2009-2010 year. You should have applied for a rotation last year. Too late to apply at UBC for this competitive residency. Perhaps your interested in Family Practice?

Hi Monterey,

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately, I have already asked Questions #1-7 to my advisor at my medical school here in the U.S. and I get the "you'll have to call the Canadians about this, as we don't deal with them."

After calling the CaRMS yesterday and speaking to someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about (she told me that I had to take the MCCEE as a U.S. M.D. student), it seems that other medical students are more knowledgable.

I am already currently completing a 1 month Neurosurgery rotation at my medical school and am very knowledgable on the U.S. system. Unfortunately, my medical school staff do not know anything about the CaRMS or how CaRMS/ERAS interact with each other, which is what all my questions are about.

This way, I hope medical students can share information with each other on these forums so that others in our situation can get some information.

Thanks

FatKid

 

[Giemsa]

Hello Giemsa,

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

1. For me, if I am an M4 at a U.S. M.D school, I should be applying NOW (August 2009) for BOTH US AND Canadian residencies.

Yes, it's time to start applying for CaRMS 2010 (I don't know about the US match).

2. If I match into Canada applying only to Neurosurgery, I am GUARANTEED Neurosurgery. There is no separate "intern" year and "residency" like in the US. They are combined into the same residency program?

Yes. There is no separate "intern" year. That doesn't exist here. You match into your permanent residency starting right away from PGY-1.

3. If I get accepted into a Canadian residency, then I will be automatically removed from the U.S. match?

Yes.

4. What do you mean by "rank" neurosurgery?

When it comes time (see the CaRMS timetable) you will rank all the residency programs you would like to be a resident in, in order of your preference. DON'T RANK ANYTHING THAT YOU DON'T WANT. Let's say that you decide that you want to be a neurosurgery resident at either the U of T or UBC. You like Toronto, but UBC is much better, you think, so your rank order list would look like this:

#1 Neurosurgery UBC
#2 Neurosurgery U of T

You can rank as many programs as you like. As long as you don't rank anything else, you won't match to anything else. On the other hand, the fewer programs you rank the lower your chances of matching. It is, I understand, very, very similar to the ranking process in the US.

5. My plan is to ONLY apply to Neurosurgery in Canada. I do not want anything else other than Neurosurgery.

You can do this. No problem.

6. If I only apply to Neurosurgery https://w1c.e-carms.ca/pdws/jsp/pd.do?d=905&p=p3&m=1 there is no way that I could get anything else in Canada other than those programs on the list correct?

You can ONLY match for what you rank. They WILL NOT match you with ANY program that you DON'T rank.

7. If I do not get accepted into any of those programs above, then I am still included in the U.S. match, and can get Neurosurgery in the U.S., like any other U.S. medical student?

Yes. If you don't match in Canada, you can still participate in the US match in the same year (though I don't know much about the US match at all).

PS - I get the impression from Monterey's dire predictions the neurosurgery is very competitive in the US. However, neurosurgery isn't extremely competitive in Canada. In 2009, twenty-three people ranked neurosurg as their first-choice, competing for 20 positions, which isn't exactly cut-throat. Unlike the US match, Canadian matching is strongly influenced by the rotations you have done and your LOR, so do a really good job on both.

 

[FatKid]

Thanks Giemsa!

I appreciate you taking the time to type that out.

I was actually thinking of taking the MCCQE Part I this fall if possible.

I am going to see if you have to wait until May right before you graduate in order to do it.

Regarding the MCCQE Part I, have you taken your USMLE's? I've heard that "Toronto Notes" are good for it.

What materials will you be using to study for it? I wonder how similar it is to my USMLE Step 2...?

 

[PistolPete]

Neurosurgery is extremely competitive in the US (one of the highest board scores, I believe only second to dermatology). And yes, I've heard that MCCQE Part 1 is similar to UMSLE Step 2 CK.

 

[MontereyMD]

Hey Dawg.... the deadline for applying for MCCQE1 fall 2009 was way back months ago! If you're lucky you may be able to get the application in for MCCQE1 in spring 2010! Hurry up!
When I wrote it in Montreal back in the day I had this all planned out in 3rd year like all other medical students do. 4th year medical school is for senioritis not scurrying about trying to plan your career. You shouldn't be doing all this 7 months before graduation..deadlines have passed and medical school clerkships are filled up. You need to have a back up plan for Neurosurgery and not fixate on it. Perhaps General Surgery? Rotation year? Family Medicine Docs in Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho and Montana still do Surgery. Think about Family Medicine in the University of Washington System.

 

[Giemsa]

Regarding the MCCQE Part I, have you taken your USMLE's? I've heard that "Toronto Notes" are good for it.

I don't have my USMLEs (I was trained & am working in Canada).

As for Part I - most people used the Toronto notes. There weren't (in my day) any special "study notes" that the med classes shared around and passed from class to class, if you know what I mean 😉.

Part II is a different story. But, if you should get into a Canadian residency, by the time Part II comes around, you'll find yourself a copy of the "study materials" through the other residents in your program (usually most people are pretty willing to share with their colleagues).

And get a move on registering for CaRMS and Part I - better to check into it way ahead that miss some important deadline!

 

[FatKid]

I don't have my USMLEs (I was trained & am working in Canada).

As for Part I - most people used the Toronto notes. There weren't (in my day) any special "study notes" that the med classes shared around and passed from class to class, if you know what I mean 😉.

Part II is a different story. But, if you should get into a Canadian residency, by the time Part II comes around, you'll find yourself a copy of the "study materials" through the other residents in your program (usually most people are pretty willing to share with their colleagues).

And get a move on registering for CaRMS and Part I - better to check into it way ahead that miss some important deadline!

Hey Giemsa,

Thanks for your reply. I've already signed up for everything.

I would be interested to find out if you can start residency without taking the MCCQE Part I.

The woman on the phone at MCC didn't know anything about it...

 

[Cardiologist]

Hey Fatkid and Giemsa,

Thanks for all this discussion. This has been really helpful. I am kind of in Fatkid's position. I am a third year student at a US allopathic medical school interested in General surgery/GI medicine and am a Canadian permanent resident. Honestly, I wouldn;t mind staying in the US for residency. But my family is in Canada. And it will be nice to be close to family during the gruelling years of residency. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light about how competitive it is to get into general surgery at UofT and whether or not I should consider doing an elective to increase my chances. Thanks

 

[Giemsa]

Everything at the U of T is going to be relatively competitive.

In support of this, note that the U of T had NO empty spots left after the first round. There were 17 general surgery positions left in the second round - just none at the U of T.

Overall, general surgery isn't really cut-throat (in 2009, 89 Canadian medical graduates chose general surgery; 78 of these as their first choice). Of course, that same year, the U of T only had 10 general surgery spots in their quota. Only 5 Canadian grads wanting general surgery went unmatched.

DEFINITELY do an elective if you want to match at the U of T. Most schools would be very unlikely to match a resident sight unseen, and the U of T can be especially picky. Get great Canadian letters of reference. Consider applying at other Ontario schools, if you would be happy working in other cities; but of course the match is completely binding, and transferring is difficult, so don't rank anything that you wouldn't want to do!