cancelled interview 5 days ahead of time

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

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Hello,

I had a program cancel an interview for Feb 7 today on Feb 1 via voicemail. They said it is too late in the interview season for it to be worth their time to interview me.

I had already purchased plane tickets. Should I ask for renumeration? What would you do? Anyone have a situation like this? I booked this interview months ago.

Thanks.

 

[penguins]

Then why the heck did they schedule you to interview on that day!!!
I would respond to the voicemail by calling and telling them about the plane tickets. I wouldn't count on any money but a good dose of guilt would be good for them! 😡

 

[CANES2006]

What a bunch of jerks! 😡 I would e-mail your entire school about this program, so that they could be blackballed by your school and tell them you are going to do this. May not result in anything, but it sure would feel good. 😉

 

[babya]

I would report them to the match program because I'll bet that's a violation of match regulations. and I'd demand your plane fare reimbursement. You have nothing to lose.

 

[daisyduke]

For starters you should blackball them on SDN! Who is it... we are all sooooooo curious!! 😛

I would be totally pissed if that happened to me and I would definitely call and let them know how I felt about it! 🙄

As for your plane ticket, you are gonna probably lose $60-100 on it, but you can cancel the flight and put the money you paid on the ticket towards a future ticket on that airline minus the change of reservation fee.

 

[Empedocles]

Hello,

I had a program cancel an interview for Feb 7 today on Feb 1 via voicemail. They said it is too late in the interview season for it to be worth their time to interview me.

I had already purchased plane tickets. Should I ask for renumeration? What would you do? Anyone have a situation like this? I booked this interview months ago.

Thanks.

Tartufe, Im sorry to hear your situation. But think about it, if that's they way they handle things in this program, so uncourteous and unprofessional, maybe that's the way they treat their residents.

Its awful you are not going to get your money back, but in the end, maybe it was not even worth it interviewing at this program.

 

[robotsonic]

daisyduke is right, let's blackball them on SDN. What program was it? You have nothing to lose by revealing it, and that was incredibly unprofessional of them.

 

[tigershark]

That's harsh, I'd drag them through the mud if they didnt agree to reimburse the plane tickets.

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

Hello,

Anyone know for sure if it is a match violation? With actual data to back it up?


Thankx for the support

 

[WilcoWorld]

I had a similar thing happen to me last year. Four days prior to my interview at the EM program in Richmond, VA they rescheduled the interview for four hours later in the day. I informed them that I had overseas, non-refundable plane tickets out of DC that night & could count on missing my flight if I had to do the later interview. Their response was that the interviewers really didn't feel like coming in early that day, so if I couldn't accommodate the change then tough. I went to DC for a lazy morning of sightseeing instead.

In retrospect I'm glad I didn't waste my time at the interview. I hope you come to the same conclusion.

 

[matakanan]

thats nothing ... my friend, last year got invited to cleveland clinic florida... and when he arrived at the hospital.. the coordinator told him that it was an accident and she had not meant to invite him. they send him home even without a courtesy interview.. no reimbursement for his flight tickets... just a "we are sooorrrry'

 

[DRDARIA]

thats nothing ... my friend, last year got invited to cleveland clinic florida... and when he arrived at the hospital.. the coordinator told him that it was an accident and she had not meant to invite him. they send him home even without a courtesy interview.. no reimbursement for his flight tickets... just a "we are sooorrrry'

Unbelievable! That means they "accidentally" invited him, "accidentally" scheduled the interview date when he called or emailed, and probably "accidentally" put him on their schedule. There really should be some way of holding these programs accountable; they shouldn't be allowed to participate in the match if they are going to behave this way.
My 2 cents.

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

Hello,

I emailed them about the flight. Here's the response:

"Hello, I must say we have never had an issue like this arise before.
Following some discussion we have decided not to reinburse you for the
cost of the flight. Thank you for your interest in our program and good
luck with all future persuits."


If this is the way they treat applicants, how nice would it be to train here?
They have 'never' had anyone actually plan their trip prior to interviewing?

sheesh 🙄 🙄 🙄

 

[Doctor Bagel]

What jerks! Is there someone you can report them to? Maybe contact your school and see what they say.

 

[DRDARIA]

Here's an off-beat idea but I wonder what would happen if someone threatened to take one of these programs that behaves this way to small claims court. Many universities have free legal services for students, and it might only require a letter from legal services telling them they are being filed against to get them to reimburse. Of course, it might be more hassle than it's worth-- depends what the flight cost, I guess. Just the threat might get them to be a little more careful in the future and not screw somebody else.

I agree with you though, this is NOT a program I'd ever want to go to if they behave this way.

 

[DrRobert]

You need to find out which agency to report this program to - the NRMP, AAMC, ACGME, etc.

This is unacceptable behavior, and the program should be placed on probation or not allowed to participate in the match.

 

[tigershark]

Here's an off-beat idea but I wonder what would happen if someone threatened to take one of these programs that behaves this way to small claims court. Many universities have free legal services for students, and it might only require a letter from legal services telling them they are being filed against to get them to reimburse. Of course, it might be more hassle than it's worth-- depends what the flight cost, I guess. Just the threat might get them to be a little more careful in the future and not screw somebody else.

I agree with you though, this is NOT a program I'd ever want to go to if they behave this way.

Probably would be enough just to send a certified letter informing them that you will be filing a claim in small claims court if they dont agree to reimburse you, in addition to reporting them to the NRMP for unprofessional behavior.

I would pursue this on principle alone.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I agree - this is reprehensible and should not be tolerated.

However, I'm not sure small claims court is the route to be followed. I would be fairly certain that your flight costs are under the minimum required by such a court, but there are surely other legal routes and routes via the NRMP.

Please pursue one of those and let us know how it turns out.

 

[tigershark]

I agree - this is reprehensible and should not be tolerated.

However, I'm not sure small claims court is the route to be followed. I would be fairly certain that your flight costs are under the minimum required by such a court, but there are surely other legal routes and routes via the NRMP.

Please pursue one of those and let us know how it turns out.

He/she wouldnt have to actually file the claim, just act like he is going to if they dont reimburse, that along with the threat of reporting to the NRMP would likely get them to give in.

 

[watto]

I would still keep small claims in mind. It's a very simple process. You can download forms online in your state, making an argument that the wrong occured where you reside, and it's maybe a 1-2 hour day in court eventually. If they don't show up, you may win by default.

I think they will settle with you anyway out of court.

 

[Whodathunkit]

I wouldn't want to be at a program that puts an important person in charge that couldn't spell PURSUIT anyway...

Report them though, that's just the type of crap that makes this whole match process so unbelievably psychologically, emotionally, and financially draining. Talk to your Dean of Student Affairs as well. Hopefully they can give you some further information and avenues on how to PERSUE this.

 

[BlahtoThis]

Too bad we can't get the distribution list for the program. It's really sad because a program like this will probably get filled anyway becuase it's a university program and there are enough people out there who may be more scared about not matching than about going to a totally unprofessional and cheap program like this.

Just to say this, I find it really funny how we, as students, are told to be professional and how programs act like the ultimate evil is to be unprofessional in medicine. However, I can think of countless physicians and medicine officials (this is just one example of somebody) who are completely unprofessional, but there is nobody who deals with them accordingly. So I guess the lesson is just act professional for as long as somebody can destroy you for it, but the sky's the limit when you're finally out!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Just to say this, I find it really funny how we, as students, are told to be professional and how programs act like the ultimate evil is to be unprofessional in medicine. However, I can think of countless physicians and medicine officials (this is just one example of somebody) who are completely unprofessional, but there is nobody who deals with them accordingly. So I guess the lesson is just act professional for as long as somebody can destroy you for it, but the sky's the limit when you're finally out!

It is a shame how people forget that professionalism is a two-way street. If you're going to demand it, you should respect the concept enough to demonstrate it.

 

[earmuffs]

That sucks.

Good luck getting back your funds.

Spread the word about this on Scutwork? Might make some good reading material pre-ROL certification.

 

[toughlife]

report them to the NRMP and sue their ass.

 

[DigableCat]

.

 

[matakanan]

sue their arses.... hope u get a million dollars !

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

sue their arses.... hope u get a million dollars !

Well, I doubt I will get a million dollars. A couple hundred would be fine.

I did write to the NRMP to find out how to proceed.

And the residency coordinator did not even spell Medicine correctly in her signature.

What a program. I tried posting on scutwork, but it may not be validated secondary to content.

I will keep you all posted. Thanx for the support!!
😍

 

[3dtp]

It is a shame how people forget that professionalism is a two-way street. If you're going to demand it, you should respect the concept enough to demonstrate it.

My original program violated the match and gave my position to someone else. I am in a very competitive field. When I discussed the matter with a GME director, I was told that the match will never side with a resident/student against a program. Despite a preponderance of the evidence, the NRMP refused to even acknowlege a match violation had occurred, despite the fact that the program's in house counsel admitted the violation and took action to fix the problem.

Some thoughts. I have seen PDs and institutional authorities behave in all manner of evil ways, lies, cheating, you name it. Until we get the magic paper we are powerless to do anything about it.

I do hope that someone next August/September bounces this thread back to the top of this list and again in January/February so that this evil doer is well known. Maybe we should create a separate "Rogues Gallery" thread.

 

[inositide]

Correct me if I am wrong....

UVW medical center is the same institution that was exposed a couple of years ago for fradulently forcing people to get surgeries and swindling their money. It was an institutionalized problem. I think the main guy in the scheme was a doctor named Dr. Moon.

 

[baddabing]

First, let me say that I agree with everyone else that what they did is inexcusable and ridiculous. However, I must play devil's advocate here and point out that students much more often do things just as bad as this during the interview process, without consequence.

For example, a few people in my class applied to programs in desireable places like New York City, Las Vegas, Cali, etc just to give them an excuse to go there. So they applied there with no intentions of going there. Took an interview spot away from people that really wanted to go there but were denied interviews.

Or even worse, I went on several interviews where applicants failed to show up, even without calling and telling the program of their absence. Not only did they not show up, but by not calling ahead of time they prevent the program from being able to interview other applicants during that day. Now what if the program does not fill? Are they allowed to sue the absent applicant for the $100,000 stipend (per resident) that a program gets from the government for training residents? Or at the very least the money they spent on food that was avilable for the applicant during their interview? Of course not. There is no consequence for the student's behavior, with the exception of maybe the program being less likely to offer interviews next year to other students from that school.

So I agree that it sucks that this happens, but at least they called ahead of time. It gave you a chance to cancel your hotel and flight. I would rather them do this then have me come for an interview when they knew ahead of time they wouldn't be ranking me. Also, I would be careful what you do. The program director of your residency program may be good friends with the director at the school you are attacking. I have heard horror stories of "whistle blowers" getting bad treatment, like the medicine resident at Hopkins who got the program cited for work hour violations and ruined the chance of any support from his program's faculty when it came to applying for fellowship.

 

[freshity]

wow, you play a good devil's advocate. but i'm sure you don't mean to excuse people's bad actions by saying it's par for the course. if that's the case, what is the incentive to ever do the right thing? i could give a million examples of when people have done the wrong thing. it will never be an excuse for when i do. i am responsible for myself.

i would have a hard time living with myself if i didn't stick up for myself and others. it's called acting with integrity, even if it is for your own benefit. that's the upside of living honestly according to principles--sometimes those calls fall in your favor, so to speak...funny, tho, the battle wages on. hold yourself to the same principles to which you hold others. we shouldn't live under the threat of people reacting punitively towards us. that's a messed up way to live, in my opinion. really leaves little light at the end of the tunnel, eh?! and it leaves one in a position of living somewhat defensively. that's not the way life is meant to be lived, as i see it. we all have our own power and we should use it wisely--not overly, punitively, irresponsibly, nor defensively.

i say, act with integrity and do what's right by holding this program responsible until you 1)recieve what is reasonably owed to you, or 2)tire knowing you tried your hardest to do what was right. good luck!

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

Hello everyone,

The PD called me today, apologized profusely, and offerred to pay for the tix. I also set up a phone interview with them so I can still interview.

So, with some pressure, programs do help out.

And baddabing, if you cancel an airline ticket, do you have any idea how much you get back or how much the fees are for cancelling? It is really sucky to have to cancel an airline ticket.

😀 😀

 

[tigershark]

First, let me say that I agree with everyone else that what they did is inexcusable and ridiculous. However, I must play devil's advocate here and point out that students much more often do things just as bad as this during the interview process, without consequence.

For example, a few people in my class applied to programs in desireable places like New York City, Las Vegas, Cali, etc just to give them an excuse to go there. So they applied there with no intentions of going there. Took an interview spot away from people that really wanted to go there but were denied interviews.

Or even worse, I went on several interviews where applicants failed to show up, even without calling and telling the program of their absence. Not only did they not show up, but by not calling ahead of time they prevent the program from being able to interview other applicants during that day. Now what if the program does not fill? Are they allowed to sue the absent applicant for the $100,000 stipend (per resident) that a program gets from the government for training residents? Or at the very least the money they spent on food that was avilable for the applicant during their interview? Of course not. There is no consequence for the student's behavior, with the exception of maybe the program being less likely to offer interviews next year to other students from that school.

So I agree that it sucks that this happens, but at least they called ahead of time. It gave you a chance to cancel your hotel and flight. I would rather them do this then have me come for an interview when they knew ahead of time they wouldn't be ranking me. Also, I would be careful what you do. The program director of your residency program may be good friends with the director at the school you are attacking. I have heard horror stories of "whistle blowers" getting bad treatment, like the medicine resident at Hopkins who got the program cited for work hour violations and ruined the chance of any support from his program's faculty when it came to applying for fellowship.

Unless this same student did all those things I dont see how it is excusable just because "everyone else is doing it"

 

[3dtp]

Unless this same student did all those things I dont see how it is excusable just because "everyone else is doing it"

Precisely. What these actions teach is that we are to be ethical and professional as long was we are being watched, by someone who has the ability to grant or deny credentialling. The not so subliminal message is once we have the credentials, then we are in no ways charged to behave ethically, professionally and properly.

Unethical students should be and are sanctioned by the NRMP. But, it should also be a level playing field.

Concerning the students who interviewed in nice places so they had an excuse to visit them? Well, that's seems to me to be a stupid thing to do, not just because it is unethical, but also because it is a waste of time and money for the applicant. They could just as easily taken a flight to the nice place and not have had to spend a day in an interview when they could have been at the beach.

In the real world, hiring firms advertise positions, collect resumes and invite their top candidates at the company's expense and make offers, hoping that the applicants will accept. Applicants have in mind a certain salary/benefit/working condition environment which is acceptable. These two conditions are met, then there is a match and a contract, today, not on a specific day in March.

In this topsy turvey medical residency process, that is turned on its ear. We pay for the privilege of applying, we pay for the privilege of interviewing, we make a list of our top jobs, the hospitals make a list and we go where they say, for whatever working conditions they offer which may or may not be what they advertised when we interviewed, and we we don't like it tough.

I don't feel that much sympathy for the poor hospitals who can easily round up the next round of interviewers. I do feel that hospitals that misbehave should have that misbehavior known to all interested parties. This serves two purposes. One it may help convince them to clean up their act or they'll have less to choose from. Two, it will help us make better informed intelligent choices in the future.

Concerning pursuing a claim against the evildoer, for a relatively trival (I know it may not seem trivial when you're struggling to buy your next jar of peanut butter), amount of money, because, even if you win, you lose, as pointed out above. The medical residency directors community is very small, they do talk among each other, and as we all know there are less than ethical and honest people running residency programs in this country.

Good luck.

 

[missdr]

congrats on the resolution tartfute! i am curious as to why you are setting up a telephone interview with the program??? after the way they treated you i would definitely NOT rank them... and if they still want to interview you and you really are still interested in the program, i am wondering why you don't just use the ticket you have and fly out there to formally check out the program?? i am really happy for you for having worked things out financially... i wonder if someone from the dept happened to read this thread and rethink things

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

I did write to the NRMP. They said they dont get involved in these cases and to hash it out with the program in question.

 

[14022]

.

 

[3dtp]

congrats on the resolution tartfute! i am curious as to why you are setting up a telephone interview with the program??? after the way they treated you i would definitely NOT rank them... and if they still want to interview you and you really are still interested in the program, i am wondering why you don't just use the ticket you have and fly out there to formally check out the program?? i am really happy for you for having worked things out financially... i wonder if someone from the dept happened to read this thread and rethink things

I disagree. There may be other reasons for not ranking a program, but they ultimately did realize either the error or their ways or the amount of bad PR they could get from doing a bad deed. They changed their ways, apologized and maybe they did simply make a mistake, realized it and now want to fix it. The PD did say in the response that they've never had a situation like this before. This seems to say they at least felt bad about it and when they reversed themselves that they either have integrity or as you suggested or they don't want the bad press. I'd like to think that the former is the case.

Personally, I'd take the phone interview, although I agree, that if there's mutual interest, keep the flight, but compromise, depending on what the airline will let you do with the unused ticket. If you can use the ticket for something else when the time comes and there's a change fee, then I think it's fair that the program pay that. If it's a total waste, then asking for the full fare is reasonable to. Remember you'll have house hunting and moving trips when the time comes for the residency of your dreams come June, and that unused ticket may come in handy.

 

[baddabing]

My bad, sholes. You were logged in still at the library and I accidentally posted this under your name above. I edited it and reposted my response below.

*******************************************************

I am not condoning what they did, as I made that very clear in the beginning of my first post. What I am saying is that if students are going to go to extraordinary lengths to hold programs to a certain professional standard, then we first must hold ourselves to a professional standard. For example, students should not fail to show up for interviews without calling. Students should not tell programs they are ranking them number one when they are not.

If you feel that it is appropriate to sue a program for cancelling an interview, then you should expect them to seek financial compensation from applicants who fail to show up for their interviews.

The PD called me today, apologized profusely, and offerred to pay for the tix. I also set up a phone interview with them so I can still interview.

And what is this? Talk about absolutely ridiculous. You made it a project to name the program that did this to you and bash it to pieces, threatened to sue, discouraged current applicants from ranking the program and future applicants from applying to this program, and cited the numerous other ways that the program sucks and now you are going to do a phone interview. What are you thinking? Haven't they already made it clear that they do not want you to interview?

And baddabing, if you cancel an airline ticket, do you have any idea how much you get back or how much the fees are for cancelling? It is really sucky to have to cancel an airline ticket.

I cancelled flights before with southwest. All it took was a click of a button and received the entire amount as credit to use for future flights. It seemed fairly easy to me.

 

[Apollyon]

I have heard horror stories of "whistle blowers" getting bad treatment, like the medicine resident at Hopkins who got the program cited for work hour violations and ruined the chance of any support from his program's faculty when it came to applying for fellowship.

It was an EM resident who was off-service on IM. He got blacklisted so badly (and SCREWED by the ACGME - betrayed his confidence and made his anonymous report known) that he resigned, and Ohio State stepped up and made a spot for him. Last time I looked, though, he's not at Ohio State anymore, and I don't know where he went.

 

[geekOCD]

He seems alive and well in Ohio - here's a post of his from 1/26/06: http://www.studentdoctor.net/diary/display.asp?ID=3371

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

He seems alive and well in Ohio - here's a post of his from 1/26/06: http://www.studentdoctor.net/diary/display.asp?ID=3371

Thanks to everyone for the info and the support. Troy Madsen's journal is quite helpful.

I have tried to remove as much identifying information off of this site in light of above.

Thanks,
😱 😀 😱

 

[ORBITAL BEBOP]

My bad, sholes. You were logged in still at the library and I accidentally posted this under your name above. I edited it and reposted my response below.

*******************************************************

I am not condoning what they did, as I made that very clear in the beginning of my first post. What I am saying is that if students are going to go to extraordinary lengths to hold programs to a certain professional standard, then we first must hold ourselves to a professional standard. For example, students should not fail to show up for interviews without calling. Students should not tell programs they are ranking them number one when they are not.

** is it an 'extraordinary standard' to expect a program who has agreed to interview you to actually interview you?

If you feel that it is appropriate to sue a program for cancelling an interview, then you should expect them to seek financial compensation from applicants who fail to show up for their interviews.

**Food costs alot less than plane tickets and days off work.


And what is this? Talk about absolutely ridiculous. You made it a project to name the program that did this to you and bash it to pieces, threatened to sue, discouraged current applicants from ranking the program and future applicants from applying to this program, and cited the numerous other ways that the program sucks and now you are going to do a phone interview. What are you thinking? Haven't they already made it clear that they do not want you to interview?

**The PD told me it was a scheduling error, that they did want to interview me but did not have any more time in the schedule once they realized the error they had made is scheduling my intervew so late. He still did want to interview me, said I was a good applicant.

**Their ROL is due much sooner than ours internally since they have to pass it through GME office and various other offices.

**I never said any other way the program 'sucks' other than what they did to me. I never threatened to sue, just wanted compensation for my tickets.

I cancelled flights before with southwest. All it took was a click of a button and received the entire amount as credit to use for future flights. It seemed fairly easy to me.

**I have flown numerous times (approx 5 times per year for the last 11 years). I never use southwest since it is not located nearby, but I think it is great if you were fully refunded. When I go through Orbitz, cancelling a ticket and getting credit even with a hefty cancellation fee is a hassle. Even when I go through an airline, like Continental, there are fees incurred for cancellation or any changes made to the ticket. There are also limitations imposed on the credit and I never know if I will fly the same airline within that span of time.

Okay, I have no idea how to respond in between poster's quotes. Let me know how to do this. I just used ** to preface what I wrote.

TARTUFE