Capacity for ECT

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psychapp121

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I have elderly pt on CL service, he has catatonic schizophrenia and does not have capacity to make decisions, his daughter is his next of kin and also his HPOA, his daughter refuses any type of psychotropic medication but wants to do ECT, can we do ECT with her as surrogate decision maker or do we need to probate him before ECT? Thx for insights

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It may vary by state. Hospital attorney needs to be involved. If she’s catatonic to the point of not caring for herself, not eating , urinating on self etc I’d say it’s an emergent situation and a surrogate consent from family should be ok. But I’d want blessing from hospital attorney before ect given the skewed public knowledge of the treatment.
 
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I have elderly pt on CL service, he has catatonic schizophrenia and does not have capacity to make decisions, his daughter is his next of kin and also his HPOA, his daughter refuses any type of psychotropic medication but wants to do ECT, can we do ECT with her as surrogate decision maker or do we need to probate him before ECT? Thx for insights

Highly dependent on the state laws governing ECT. My state in particular requires court order/approval for ECT done without the individual's consent (in the case where the individual refuses, whether or not they are on a hold/commitment, and in the case where the individual is unable to make such a decision and a DPOA approves of it). Having approval from the DPOA/or at least NOK is typically a pre-requisite for getting court approval in my state, so its an important step, but as the above poster mentioned, I would contact legal.
 
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Varies by state and sometimes even hospitals and individual physicians. In some states, if the patient is on an psychiatric emergency certificate -- regardless whether the patient has capacity or not -- you need to go in front of a judge for all procedures. In some hospitals, 2 doctors sign off on the emergent nature of the treatment after receiving consent from the surrogate decision maker. And just go for it, irrespective of the fine print of the law. They just do things how it's usually done in the hospital. Always consult your hospital attorney/ethics board.
 
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I do the capacity evals on our gero psych unit, in our state, if no capacity, we need a judge to sign off AFAIK. Luckily social work tends to take care of the onerous paperwork and such. Is there no set out policy on this for your unit? We do it commonly enough here that there is a set procedure. As others have said, consult legal, and once the steps are set out, see about someone codifying those steps into unit policy for next time.
 
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I do the capacity evals on our gero psych unit, in our state, if no capacity, we need a judge to sign off AFAIK. Luckily social work tends to take care of the onerous paperwork and such. Is there no set out policy on this for your unit? We do it commonly enough here that there is a set procedure. As others have said, consult legal, and once the steps are set out, see about someone codifying those steps into unit policy for next time.

it’s a general medical floor not a unit but I’m sure there is a policy but wanted to get others input as well
 
Terms and their definitions-ish that are pretty broad but may vary by jurisdiction:
Capacity: ability to make a specific decision at a specific time, determined by a physician (or other medical person per state law)
Competence: ability to make all medical decisions from a point in time going forward, determined by a judge

Your patient lacks capacity to make a decision regarding ECT at this time. Have they been determined incompetent per judge and been appointed a guardian?

Emergency: immenent threat to life or life of patient or other
Urgency: moderate potential for the development of emergency without intervention in the near future.

Cataonia is always at least an urgency and may be an emergency if: 1) malignant catatonia or 2) violence emerges (and remember even the most ******ed catatonic person can hit you out of no where, it's happened to me).

Treatment: first line: benzos, ect, restarting clozapine if cataonia emerged during withdrawal. Second life: who knows, some say clozapine, there are a million other things. Always do the first line stuff in emergency, including iv benzos in an icu. If medicine whines, show them uptodate. Benzos or ect are always reasonable alone, unless high dose benzos fail or ect cannot be administered quickly enough in an emergency.

Now, to your question:
Patient with out capacity, has not been court ordered incompetent. First question: mental or not mental health. Some states say the surrogate decision maker doesn't matter in the case of a mental health decision, only courts can mandate treatment (or physician in an emergency). Next question: is there an advanced directive specifying treatment desired in this situation. Again, whether this would be valid in your state for mental health care depends. Next, is this emergency or urgency. You, as a physician, need to know the emergency laws on day one of intern year in your state. Call your attending in a panic now. If it's an urgency, call legal and ask a specific question using the terms above. There also may be specific ect laws, thanks Scientology.

I have worked in places where when a patient lacks capacity, for mental health care physician makes the decision in an emergency and court in any other case and in other places where a POA or NOK matters. In most of the places that I have worked, this person would be brought to court and treated over objection after the judge ruled (and judge would probably order ect only if that was wishes of POA and MD but wouldn't not have to), but if they developed unstable vitals or violence, they would be given lots of benzos until ECT could be stared and then taken to court when safe to continue the benzos and ECT.

Edit: remember, there is a decent chance that there is an underlying medical eitology of the cataonia and the patient can't make a chief complaint, so rule out and treat with a shotgun approach. Treating the underlying cause is also first line.
 
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If in doubt, get the court order.

I've had patients who verbally consented but the nature of their symptoms raised doubt in their ability to consent. I still went thru the motions of court to have that additional checks/balance.

ECT sadly is still an emotion filled treatment for some in the community. The entirety of the ECT treating Psychiatrists trust your professionalism to uphold the treatment integrity. It's better to not treat one patient then risk the integrity of the entire treatment/field.

Know your state laws, as some pointed out every state is different, and typically Healthcare POA doesn't include the ability to consent for ECT - its a carve out. People need a mental healthcare advance directive, which almost no one has.
 
ECT sadly is still an emotion filled treatment for some in the community. The entirety of the ECT treating Psychiatrists trust your professionalism to uphold the treatment integrity. It's better to not treat one patient then risk the integrity of the entire treatment/field.

I still have to do a lot of education with providers and patients over this. Still lots of people who think this will likely lead to permanent memory impairment, patients and providers alike. Lots of good meta-analyses out there that show return to cognitive baseline, or improvement (likely through ability to engage more with the tasks with psychiatric symptom reduction) with successful treatment. I am not aware of any good research out there showing long-term memory problems. And, the people I see who claim long-term memory problems almost all have non-credible complaints and report Hollywood type amnesias.
 
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I still have to do a lot of education with providers and patients over this. Still lots of people who think this will likely lead to permanent memory impairment, patients and providers alike. Lots of good meta-analyses out there that show return to cognitive baseline, or improvement (likely through ability to engage more with the tasks with psychiatric symptom reduction) with successful treatment. I am not aware of any good research out there showing long-term memory problems. And, the people I see who claim long-term memory problems almost all have non-credible complaints and report Hollywood type amnesias.

The thing I say as far as "permanent" memory effects, is that specific memories surrounding the treatments may never return, but the same is true for individuals in states of psychosis, catatonia, or depression, so...

There are few things that I have seen that make such a profound (and quick) impact on a patient's mental state, that actually push me to advocate strongly for a somewhat invasive procedure. ECT is one of them.
 
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I am not aware of any good research out there showing long-term memory problems
Definitely not "had 8 ECT treatments and now can't remember anything." Maybe two things that could be mislabeled as "long term impairment": 1. Doesn't remember events from the days they had ECT treatment (expected). 2. Long-term maintenance ECT with some frequency may mean long-term intermittent memory impairment.

edit: Just saw that hallowmann got to it before me.

I had a case recently that would have been very well served by getting ECT but bipolar depression left the patient feeling so negative about everything that the pt wasn't willing to entertain the idea. The patient also wasn't impaired enough that I felt we could/should try to get a court order. Super frustrating to have such an effective treatment and not be able to use it.
 
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The thing I say as far as "permanent" memory effects, is that specific memories surrounding the treatments may never return, but the same is true for individuals in states of psychosis, catatonia, or depression, so...

There are few things that I have seen that make such a profound (and quick) impact on a patient's mental state, that actually push me to advocate strongly for a somewhat invasive procedure. ECT is one of them.
Not with regard to ECT specifically, but don't amnesic agents generally make it such that there is no memory to begin with? So that it's not that it's forgotten; it was never formed. A bit like a camera where the lens is open but it's not recording.
 
Not with regard to ECT specifically, but don't amnesic agents generally make it such that there is no memory to begin with? So that it's not that it's forgotten; it was never formed. A bit like a camera where the lens is open but it's not recording.
Generally speaking, yes, it's an encoding problem. As others have said, the memories while someone is receiving ECT, particularly if it's several times a week, and fragmented due to impaired encoding. So, yes, it is an encoding problem, rather than a retrieval problem.
 
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Terms and their definitions-ish that are pretty broad but may vary by jurisdiction:
Capacity: ability to make a specific decision at a specific time, determined by a physician (or other medical person per state law)
Competence: ability to make all medical decisions from a point in time going forward, determined by a judge

Your patient lacks capacity to make a decision regarding ECT at this time. Have they been determined incompetent per judge and been appointed a guardian?

Emergency: immenent threat to life or life of patient or other
Urgency: moderate potential for the development of emergency without intervention in the near future.

Cataonia is always at least an urgency and may be an emergency if: 1) malignant catatonia or 2) violence emerges (and remember even the most ******ed catatonic person can hit you out of no where, it's happened to me).

Treatment: first line: benzos, ect, restarting clozapine if cataonia emerged during withdrawal. Second life: who knows, some say clozapine, there are a million other things. Always do the first line stuff in emergency, including iv benzos in an icu. If medicine whines, show them uptodate. Benzos or ect are always reasonable alone, unless high dose benzos fail or ect cannot be administered quickly enough in an emergency.

Now, to your question:
Patient with out capacity, has not been court ordered incompetent. First question: mental or not mental health. Some states say the surrogate decision maker doesn't matter in the case of a mental health decision, only courts can mandate treatment (or physician in an emergency). Next question: is there an advanced directive specifying treatment desired in this situation. Again, whether this would be valid in your state for mental health care depends. Next, is this emergency or urgency. You, as a physician, need to know the emergency laws on day one of intern year in your state. Call your attending in a panic now. If it's an urgency, call legal and ask a specific question using the terms above. There also may be specific ect laws, thanks Scientology.

I have worked in places where when a patient lacks capacity, for mental health care physician makes the decision in an emergency and court in any other case and in other places where a POA or NOK matters. In most of the places that I have worked, this person would be brought to court and treated over objection after the judge ruled (and judge would probably order ect only if that was wishes of POA and MD but wouldn't not have to), but if they developed unstable vitals or violence, they would be given lots of benzos until ECT could be stared and then taken to court when safe to continue the benzos and ECT.

Edit: remember, there is a decent chance that there is an underlying medical eitology of the cataonia and the patient can't make a chief complaint, so rule out and treat with a shotgun approach. Treating the underlying cause is also first line.

I don’t understand your part about emergency and state laws. If pt is actively violent then you just give them benzos even if against their will, what emergency laws does one need to be aware of?
 
I don’t understand your part about emergency and state laws. If pt is actively violent then you just give them benzos even if against their will, what emergency laws does one need to be aware of?

I'm not certain that this is legal in all jurisdictions. What I am certain of is that in some jurisdictions, even in the event of certain death without clear life-saving intervention, if the patient lacks capacity and the NOK or HPOA says no to the intervention, you cannot intervene while in others you must. In some, this depends on whether the condition being treated is "mental" or "regular" health.
 
Treatment: first line: benzos, ect, restarting clozapine if cataonia emerged during withdrawal. Second life: who knows, some say clozapine, there are a million other things. Always do the first line stuff in emergency, including iv benzos in an icu. If medicine whines, show them uptodate. Benzos or ect are always reasonable alone, unless high dose benzos fail or ect cannot be administered quickly enough in an emergency

Or if there's significant risk of life-threatening respiratory depression. In those cases, I always opt for ECT if possible.
 
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I don’t understand your part about emergency and state laws. If pt is actively violent then you just give them benzos even if against their will, what emergency laws does one need to be aware of?

State and situation dependent.
 
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