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This post in its entirety is cringe… not a good look folks
I wonder what other forums have such free and open debates open for the world to see. I would like to observe CEOs and attorneys as they jokingly mock each other. Not sure there's any harm from it but it's an interesting social experiment.

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Medicine is so unique from those - weird mix of academic, hybrid, private practice, and whatever you want to call these KOLs (hyper capitalistic PP?).

Law is almost all private practice - have lawyer friends that role their eyes at the high profile lawyers always in the latest news cycle press conferences and regional ambulance chasers. Granted most of my law friends work in government corruption crime so they are as close to low paid academics as you can get.
When I was in MBA classes - a lot of the best classes were taught by ex-CEO/C-suite folks who had retired and wanted something to do/teach/give back. There may not be a forum like SDN but 100% open back stabbing, etc. in that world all the way up/down the ladder.
 
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I wonder what other forums have such free and open debates open for the world to see. I would like to observe CEOs and attorneys as they jokingly mock each other. Not sure there's any harm from it but it's an interesting social experiment.
Since WE are all anonymous, who cares. I know in orthopedic surgeon who has been paid over $6 million from industry. I would never send anyone to that guy because I know he doesn’t give a flip about anything but the dollar. We are doing an important thing by pointing out the Idiocracy.
 
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No one likes looking at the hot dog being made, but most folks love eating them.

There's certainly an element of jealousy, schadenfreude, virtue signaling depending, but I do think there's a useful reason for this thread.

It is mostly tongue in cheek, but I do think the devil drives a Coupé de ville.
 
Hate is hate no matter how you justify it…

Weak argument, but the KOLs reading this will certainly agree with you. “All those haters” just wish they had this cash, this rep, these intas, right?
Nope.
It’s fraudulent BS—bad for the public, bad for medicine, bad for our specialty.
A salesman is a salesman, not a doctor. How many patients who walk through the door know a given KOL is accepting money from industry? I would guess 0.3%
 
I’m not an industry guy, but I wouldn’t dismiss PP groups or academics that partner with them . Clearly there’s abuse and over utilization, but that’s better than no progress in a specialty field…
 
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Weak argument, but the KOLs reading this will certainly agree with you. “All those haters” just wish they had this cash, this rep, these intas, right?
Nope.
It’s fraudulent BS—bad for the public, bad for medicine, bad for our specialty.
A salesman is a salesman, not a doctor. How many patients who walk through the door know a given KOL is accepting money from industry? I would guess 0.3%
Patients think the KOL came before the industry. They think KOLs are paid tributes for their awesomeness.

They don't realize that industry and payoffs are what make a KOL.
 
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So where is the sale? LinkedIn? Instagram? Office?

If a patient is on social looking for a physician other than a Plastic surgeon it’s their fault
 
Aren’t we all sales people in the office? We should be selling what we believe is the most appropriate treatment for the patient in front of you and not what helps your instagram followers.

So you are saying the posts reflect their judgement in the office?
 
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Like most of social media the emperor has no clothes.

Outside of 5-10 folks we all know my guess is there are more @drusso ballers on sdn, who prefer to live their 8 figure lives in peace, than on LinkedIn.
 
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Aren’t we all sales people in the office? We should be selling what we believe is the most appropriate treatment for the patient in front of you and not what helps your instagram followers.

So you are saying the posts reflect their judgement in the office?
advocates of KOL will state that they are pushing forward science, or advocating for patients with new therapy because the old therapy is not helpful, and has nothing to do with financial benefits. these are all lipstick on a pig.

we should be looking at each patient not as a cash cow, but as a patient irrespective of finances.

yes, i know. that is not what pays the bills.

which is probably why patients dont get exposed enough to treatments that dont pay well but can help - such as CBT, EAET, core strengthening, etc
 
Disclaimer: I don’t post much on social media.

I just have an interest in why you all hate things so much and justify said hate.

these physicians are posting about their life and work. How are you translating their postings as bad patient care?
 
I appreciate industry doing research and trying to bring new things to market. I also appreciate them helping to facilitate dinners with other local physicians. I like how they get studies going. I appreciate their hands on courses as well.

However, I don’t like how their latest device solves everything. I also don’t like how the reps are a little pushy sometimes. And certainly I personally don’t care how attractive they are when they don’t help answer questions from my staff or go the extra mile for the patient. I also don’t appreciate when they wanna just drop by and drop off some things when I have a busy clinic or notes to catch up on.

What I’m saying is they do play a role. They do push the field forward and help make connections. However, just like everything else, there’s a limit to what they do. I don’t expect them to solve everything. But I appreciate how they do push things forward. At the end of the day if they’re not pushing the field forward we’re still just doing epidurals and muscle relaxants.

At the end of the day we can’t just rely on academics. Or else we will have a continuous debate about how to wean patients or to offer 20 mg or 30 mg of Cymbalta. And addition, not to make this about academics, but let’s not forget that people in academics often have the generous support of residents, fellows, and younger attendings doing a lot of work.
 
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I appreciate industry doing research and trying to bring new things to market. I also appreciate them helping to facilitate dinners with other local physicians. I like how they get studies going. I appreciate their hands on courses as well.

However, I don’t like how their latest device solves everything. I also don’t like how the reps are a little pushy sometimes. And certainly I personally don’t care how attractive they are when they don’t help answer questions from my staff or go the extra mile for the patient. I also don’t appreciate when they wanna just drop by and drop off some things when I have a busy clinic or notes to catch up on.

What I’m saying is they do play a role. They do push the field forward and help make connections. However, just like everything else, there’s a limit to what they do. I don’t expect them to solve everything. But I appreciate how they do push things forward. At the end of the day if they’re not pushing the field forward we’re still just doing epidurals and muscle relaxants.

At the end of the day we can’t just rely on academics. Or else we will have a continuous debate about how to wean patients or to offer 20 mg or 30 mg of Cymbalta. And addition, not to make this about academics, but let’s not forget that people in academics often have the generous support of residents, fellows, and younger attendings doing a lot of work.
…they will never love you back…
 
How are KOLs compensated by industry? Heavily discounted products I’m sure. I know docs are paid for “speaking engagements.” But are there any yearly stipends or direct compensation for these device promotions on LinkedIn, etc? Company stock? Or do KOLs just promote these devices on their own with the understanding that companies will pay them back in other ways?
 
You get paid for time work only, otherwise a stark violation.

Time work is speaking, teaching, cadaver etc

Stock is only for start ups.

No extra discounts on products really more than normally physicians

No money for advertising on social media.
 
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How are KOLs compensated by industry? Heavily discounted products I’m sure. I know docs are paid for “speaking engagements.” But are there any yearly stipends or direct compensation for these device promotions on LinkedIn, etc? Company stock? Or do KOLs just promote these devices on their own with the understanding that companies will pay them back in other ways?
The main incentive is recognition and attention.
 
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The main incentive is recognition and attention.

Agree. When I was deep in the sports med world it was (is) dog eat dog trying to become the "head doc" at the most name brand team/university you could get. You don't get paid anymore money (probably even less since most are tied with an academic position/med school), you end up beholden to babysitting 18-22 year olds (just like your device reps), and they never love you back.

You do get some great Instagram pics and ego stroking though...
 
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Most of them aren’t being paid enough for that to alter medical decision making. $500/hr for teaching a course max of 8 hours per day is pretty standard. Sounds good but they usually will lose part of Friday clinic for travel and will be away from their families for a full weekend. But that doesn’t matter to a lot of them. They don’t get paid anything for social media posts and ABT/MDT/BSX isn’t giving them preferred stock options or anything like that.
 
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I am sure it didn’t change your Medical decision making.

We are the product, not these companies.

Patients come for our knowledge and hands.

These companies are the tools that helps us.
 
Payment is dependent on your CV and gets an independent evaluator to set individual rate. This will help decrease violations.

It’s worth it only if you want to do it.
 
I am sure it didn’t change your Medical decision making.

We are the product, not these companies.

Patients come for our knowledge and hands.

These companies are the tools that helps us.
I do not think you know what you are talking about. Clearly, you are a KOL. And you may have missed the education on how marketing works. KOL is just another propaganda technique. Nothing more than a paid advertisement.
 
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Yeah no one is saying that these companies are marketing. That’s what the companies in all sectors do.

Who cares what they market. It is up to us as physicians to figure it out and find out what helps out patients.
 
I am sure it didn’t change your Medical decision making.

We are the product, not these companies.

Patients come for our knowledge and hands.

These companies are the tools that helps us.
it doesnt change - it becomes the Medical decision making.


if you own a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

likewise, if you are getting a financial incentive, everything looks like vertiflex or intracept or minuteman or MILD or SI fusion or DRG, etc.
 
There are tiers of KOLs in pain I think. There is a rarefied top tier includes a small number of people with their fingers in multiple pots, likely consulting for multiple VC/investor groups, and are capable of moving the field in a direction they choose based on devices/studies/etc. These people pop up at the top of every feed and have run a few societies. I suspect there are instances of devices and drugs that have died at their hands, and others that have succeeded because of their involvement. There are a ton though who are just trying to climb that ladder below them.

It is important to accept that not all KOLs are in private practice. Many are in academics and prefer the "purity" of the AMA/NIH/ASA/AAPM/SIS/etc. Their tiers/metrics are measured by publications, committees like the AMA RUC, involvement in organizations/legislation, etc perhaps more so than clinical acumen or case volume. Their connection with fellows is a selling point and their reputation is built slightly differently, but it's the same idea.

All KOLs are marketing themselves and their product is their opinion as well as their reputation. There is a bidirectional flow there with devices, procedures, and therapies. It's not as clear cut as putting athletes on Wheaties, but reputationally things are connected.

All these KOLs get together and affect physician practices by distilling their shared opinions in the publications of guidelines/statements/etc
 
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There are tiers of KOLs in pain I think. There is a rarefied top tier includes a small number of people with their fingers in multiple pots, likely consulting for multiple VC/investor groups, and are capable of moving the field in a direction they choose based on devices/studies/etc. These people pop up at the top of every feed and have run a few societies. I suspect there are instances of devices and drugs that have died at their hands, and others that have succeeded because of their involvement. There are a ton though who are just trying to climb that ladder below them.

It is important to accept that not all KOLs are in private practice. Many are in academics and prefer the "purity" of the AMA/NIH/ASA/AAPM/SIS/etc. Their tiers/metrics are measured by publications, committees like the AMA RUC, involvement in organizations/legislation, etc perhaps more so than clinical acumen or case volume. Their connection with fellows is a selling point and their reputation is built slightly differently, but it's the same idea.

All KOLs are marketing themselves and their product is their opinion as well as their reputation. There is a bidirectional flow there with devices, procedures, and therapies. It's not as clear cut as putting athletes on Wheaties, but reputationally things are connected.

All these KOLs get together and affect physician practices by distilling their shared opinions in the publications of guidelines/statements/etc

Excellent description of the pain KOLdom.
 
I do not think you know what you are talking about. Clearly, you are a KOL. And you may have missed the education on how marketing works. KOL is just another propaganda technique. Nothing more than a paid advertisement.
As much as you hate on these people @lobelsteve i think you are a KOL in your own right
 
There are tiers of KOLs in pain I think. There is a rarefied top tier includes a small number of people with their fingers in multiple pots, likely consulting for multiple VC/investor groups, and are capable of moving the field in a direction they choose based on devices/studies/etc. These people pop up at the top of every feed and have run a few societies. I suspect there are instances of devices and drugs that have died at their hands, and others that have succeeded because of their involvement. There are a ton though who are just trying to climb that ladder below them.

It is important to accept that not all KOLs are in private practice. Many are in academics and prefer the "purity" of the AMA/NIH/ASA/AAPM/SIS/etc. Their tiers/metrics are measured by publications, committees like the AMA RUC, involvement in organizations/legislation, etc perhaps more so than clinical acumen or case volume. Their connection with fellows is a selling point and their reputation is built slightly differently, but it's the same idea.

All KOLs are marketing themselves and their product is their opinion as well as their reputation. There is a bidirectional flow there with devices, procedures, and therapies. It's not as clear cut as putting athletes on Wheaties, but reputationally things are connected.

All these KOLs get together and affect physician practices by distilling their shared opinions in the publications of guidelines/statements/etc
this is probably true, however i generally do not consider academicians who are receiving little to no financial reimbursement from the company to be a true KOL, with the concomitant negative connotations of that moniker.

the issue is the financial reimbursement and how that clouds decision making.


i prefer to think of them as leading edge researchers, not KOLs, but i guess technically they are.
 
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this is probably true, however i generally do not consider academicians who are receiving little to no financial reimbursement from the company to be a true KOL, with the concomitant negative connotations of that moniker.

the issue is the financial reimbursement and how that clouds decision making.


i prefer to think of them as leading edge researchers, not KOLs, but i guess technically they are.

Not all compensation is monetary. Taper KOLs have made hundreds of thousands of dollars of "consulting" for attorneys and government agencies. The activity also caused them to advance their career, obtain tenure, get grants, promotions, etc. Most did not disclose ideological COI.
 
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I don’t really see the rationale for hating on KOLs. I’m hard pressed to believe that any of these social media posts by paid consultants influence any pain physician in practice. And usually - patients aren’t following these people on social media so it’s not even increasing awareness of the therapy to patients. It’s all self promotion / making themselves seem important so that they can land the next speaking/consulting opportunity.

It’s interesting to me though that there is a group of pain docs who are actively criticizing KOLs and the industry in general on LinkedIn.
 
I don’t really see the rationale for hating on KOLs. I’m hard pressed to believe that any of these social media posts by paid consultants influence any pain physician in practice. And usually - patients aren’t following these people on social media so it’s not even increasing awareness of the therapy to patients. It’s all self promotion / making themselves seem important so that they can land the next speaking/consulting opportunity.

It’s interesting to me though that there is a group of pain docs who are actively criticizing KOLs and the industry in general on LinkedIn.
They are real or pretend experts getting paid to advertise a procedure/surgery/drug under the guise of legitimate medical care. BVNA/Sprint are two current examples that lack any substantive data other than industry funded and run studies. If it were not in medical care, we would call it false advertising.
 
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I don’t really see the rationale for hating on KOLs. I’m hard pressed to believe that any of these social media posts by paid consultants influence any pain physician in practice. And usually - patients aren’t following these people on social media so it’s not even increasing awareness of the therapy to patients. It’s all self promotion / making themselves seem important so that they can land the next speaking/consulting opportunity.

It’s interesting to me though that there is a group of pain docs who are actively criticizing KOLs and the industry in general on LinkedIn.
Except that the companies spend hundreds of thousands or millions backing these KOL activities, mostly under the guise of education. They do it because their internal metrics show a positive ROI.
 
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They are real or pretend experts getting paid to advertise a procedure/surgery/drug under the guise of legitimate medical care. BVNA/Sprint are two current examples that lack any substantive data other than industry funded and run studies. If it were not in medical care, we would call it false advertising.

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