Cardiologists Vs Hospitalists

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Angioplasty

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I matched into a Cards fellowship (will be starting in July 2009) last year. Currently working as a hospitalist. I love the schedule 2 weeks off and 2 weeks on. Also getting around 170K. I sometimes rethink about fellowship nowadays. When I am 2 weeks off I can spend time with family and can make some money. Does anybody have any thoughts on this? Can we discuss the pros and cons?

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My first thought was that I can't believe anyone would apply to cards and go through all that crap and then not be sure he/she actually wants to do it. Seriously. I am kerflummoxed.

However, I don't fault you for honestly thinking about your situation.

My thoughts are that your max income as a cardiologist will be better than a hospitalist, but your hours will be worse. Supposedly hospitalists have a high burnout rate, though...think about whether you will still be wanting to do this when you are 45. Also, though cardiologists make more, I guess it's mostly the interventionalists and EP guys who really make the big bucks...not sure the $ differential between a noninvasive cardiologist and a hospitalist.
 
I matched into a Cards fellowship (will be starting in July 2009) last year. Currently working as a hospitalist. I love the schedule 2 weeks off and 2 weeks on. Also getting around 170K. I sometimes rethink about fellowship nowadays. When I am 2 weeks off I can spend time with family and can make some money. Does anybody have any thoughts on this? Can we discuss the pros and cons?

im working as a primary care physician ,i would like to apply for the cards fellowship could you please tell me what are they looking for the selection is it the scores , did u have any publications ,& where all did u apply to .i was working as a hospitalist for almost 2yrs then switched back to primary care if you dont mind could please reply
 
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My first thought was that I can't believe anyone would apply to cards and go through all that crap and then not be sure he/she actually wants to do it. Seriously. I am kerflummoxed.

However, I don't fault you for honestly thinking about your situation.

My thoughts are that your max income as a cardiologist will be better than a hospitalist, but your hours will be worse. Supposedly hospitalists have a high burnout rate, though...think about whether you will still be wanting to do this when you are 45. Also, though cardiologists make more, I guess it's mostly the interventionalists and EP guys who really make the big bucks...not sure the $ differential between a noninvasive cardiologist and a hospitalist.

are you joking about the differential between noninvasive and hospitalist?
i think its easily close to 100-200k
 
are you joking about the differential between noninvasive and hospitalist?
i think its easily close to 100-200k

No...s/he isn't. Someone who is 100% non-invasive cards will probably make near what a hospitalist makes (+/- 20%). For a (depressing) example, our senior heart failure/transplant cardiologist (who still does rt heart caths) makes ~$30K less than our first year hospitalists. This is in an academic setting but out in the community I would bet that the difference is <$50K and the work-hour difference is probaby 1.5-2:1 (cards:hospitalist).
 
No...s/he isn't. Someone who is 100% non-invasive cards will probably make near what a hospitalist makes (+/- 20%). For a (depressing) example, our senior heart failure/transplant cardiologist (who still does rt heart caths) makes ~$30K less than our first year hospitalists. This is in an academic setting but out in the community I would bet that the difference is <$50K and the work-hour difference is probaby 1.5-2:1 (cards:hospitalist).

Wrong. You have to do your research. The only reason why a general cardiologist would be making that little is because he's in academics. His community practice counterparts are making a lot more.
 
Wrong. You have to do your research. The only reason why a general cardiologist would be making that little is because he's in academics. His community practice counterparts are making a lot more.

Clearly I'm talking academics. But hospitalists in the community make more than they do in academics as well so while the absolute numbers will be higher, the spread will be similar.
 
Clearly I'm talking academics. But hospitalists in the community make more than they do in academics as well so while the absolute numbers will be higher, the spread will be similar.

I guess angioplasty is a girl and now changing her mind regarding which is important - career or family. Also, simply discussing about income is not at all important to most people applying cardiology
 
No...s/he isn't. Someone who is 100% non-invasive cards will probably make near what a hospitalist makes (+/- 20%). For a (depressing) example, our senior heart failure/transplant cardiologist (who still does rt heart caths) makes ~$30K less than our first year hospitalists. This is in an academic setting but out in the community I would bet that the difference is <$50K and the work-hour difference is probaby 1.5-2:1 (cards:hospitalist).

A private practice non-invasive guy who has a full clinic and rounds in a hospital will easily make 300,000 probably to start. If not, he's either not full time, is lazy, got screwed, etc.

You can't really compare academics because each place is different and gives different emphasis on research.
 
im working as a primary care physician ,i would like to apply for the cards fellowship could you please tell me what are they looking for the selection is it the scores , did u have any publications ,& where all did u apply to .i was working as a hospitalist for almost 2yrs then switched back to primary care if you dont mind could please reply


I personally dont think scores matter much in the selection of the fellows. However, some programs will do the initial screening based on scores. Yes I do have publications. I will post my credentials in the website pretty soon.
 
I personally dont think scores matter much in the selection of the fellows. However, some programs will do the initial screening based on scores. Yes I do have publications. I will post my credentials in the website pretty soon.

thank you angioplasty for replying
 
I matched into a Cards fellowship (will be starting in July 2009) last year. Currently working as a hospitalist. I love the schedule 2 weeks off and 2 weeks on. Also getting around 170K. I sometimes rethink about fellowship nowadays. When I am 2 weeks off I can spend time with family and can make some money. Does anybody have any thoughts on this? Can we discuss the pros and cons?

My advice is to start the fellowship no matter what in 2009. A Cards fellowship is hard to come by and you WON'T realistically be able to obtain the same position if you change your mind down the line. You can always be a hospitalist.

If you want "lifestyle", there are many avenues in Cardiology to accomodate you. A non-invasive cardiologist should command a salary of 300K to start. If you join a larger group, you very well may be able to have an easier call burden, especially with urgent MI night calls being directed to an interventionalist.

As a side note, the days of full time private practice interventionlist "only" is dying. PCI procedures are plummeting due to drug eluting stents and statins and overall better management. The jump to stenting everything is fading, and medical therapy for CAD is more than supported in the literature. Anyone pursuing cardiology should realize that long term care and IM fundamentals will need to stay with you. Even if you do EP or Interventional fellowship, you will need to practice general cardiology. Nucelar stress tests and echocardiograms still pay the bills of a private practice.....Diagnostic caths or even interventional procedures and EP procedures do NOT command the private practice NON HOSPITAL owned practice $ that is perceived.

Just my .02. Good luck.
 
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My advice is to start the fellowship no matter what in 2009. A Cards fellowship is hard to come by and you WON'T realistically be able to obtain the same position if you change your mind down the line. You can always be a hospitalist.

If you want "lifestyle", there are many avenues in Cardiology to accomodate you. A non-invasive cardiologist should command a salary of 300K to start. If you join a larger group, you very well may be able to have an easier call burden, especially with urgent MI night calls being directed to an interventionalist.

As a side note, the days of full time private practice interventionlist "only" is dying. PCI procedures are plummeting due to drug eluting stents and statins and overall better management. The jump to stenting everything is fading, and medical therapy for CAD is more than supported in the literature. Anyone pursuing cardiology should realize that long term care and IM fundamentals will need to stay with you. Even if you do EP or Interventional fellowship, you will need to practice general cardiology. Nucelar stress tests and echocardiograms still pay the bills of a private practice.....Diagnostic caths or even interventional procedures and EP procedures do NOT command the private practice NON HOSPITAL owned practice $ that is perceived.

Just my .02. Good luck.

jgar26, I am assuming you are a cards fellow/attending...I'd like to know if one can work decent hours as an attending (despite the high demand)? For example, can you read imaging studies all day (plus consults on the side) and have some clinic days? I've also heard that the trend is to get rid of invasive cardiologists as a specialization, and have people decide between interventional and non-interventional (i.e. reading echos, clinic, consults, etc). Is the goal to not have one doc do a diagnostic cath and if there is a blockage, then call another doc to deploy a stent? Thanks.
 
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It's true that putting a stent into one or several tiny arteries does not fix the systemic disease that causes CAD, I do not see interventional going anywhere in my opinion. There are a lot of procedures that are going to come into their own in the next few years (valves, PFO closure etc). There will always be emergency angioplasty, IABP's, tandem heart, Right heart cath, emergent or non emergent pericardiocentesis etc.

I'm a PGY III, so admittedly naive to the real world, but i get the sense that the field is still wide open.

Back to the original question: If you want to make 300K, and it's just about money, you'd be hard pressed to do that as a hospitalist.
 
Speaking of the future, what kinds of interventional procedures are in the pipeline? and where do they stand as of now? For example, is percutaneous/interventional aortic/mitral valve replacement currently in research mode, or past that stage? What about PFO? What other kinds of procedures can we look forward to in the next 10-20 years?
 
percutaneous valve replacement is currently in clinical trial phase with very good results. i've seen with my own eyes 96yo patients get discharged from hospital 48hrs after purcutaneos aortic valve placement. currently only a few research centers are doing these but once the trial data comes out i'm sure it will become more widely performed, although probably still at big tertiary centers. the argument is if the CT surgeons are going to try to get on this one, because the valve are large enough that require a surgical cut down in one of the femoral arteries and so a surgeon technically needs to be involved with the procedure... i still think the cardiologist will play the main role with CT surgery there for support, especially once **** hits the fan while my buddy argues that it will be taken over by the surgeons... but what does he know, his a radiologist too pissed off cardiologist are making a move on the peripheral stenting business :rolleyes:
 
percutaneous valve replacement is currently in clinical trial phase with very good results. i've seen with my own eyes 96yo patients get discharged from hospital 48hrs after purcutaneos aortic valve placement. currently only a few research centers are doing these but once the trial data comes out i'm sure it will become more widely performed, although probably still at big tertiary centers. the argument is if the CT surgeons are going to try to get on this one, because the valve are large enough that require a surgical cut down in one of the femoral arteries and so a surgeon technically needs to be involved with the procedure... i still think the cardiologist will play the main role with CT surgery there for support, especially once **** hits the fan while my buddy argues that it will be taken over by the surgeons... but what does he know, his a radiologist too pissed off cardiologist are making a move on the peripheral stenting business :rolleyes:


Hi, I know the whole scenario of medicine is rapidly changing. As you all know the consult codes have already gone, Cards reimbursement went down by 30% and it is being said that reimbursement of all physicians will go down by 21% by March.

I am working as a Hospitalist for 2 yrs now- I enjoy the work though it is taxing sometimes. I recently matched in Pulmonary Medicine for this year and now am really confused if I should join it in this day and age of changing medicine. I was wondering if it will be really worth in long run. People tell me that in the long run Hospitalist do burn out but when I compare it should be the same effect in Pul and Cards. Also, I need to keep in mind that fellowship salary is 50000 for next 3 yrs.

I would highly appreciate any input.
 
the salaries you are quoting dont take into account major card cuts in the next 4 years, also to invasive. noninvasive will be hard pressed to hit 300 now and with hospitalists making 200-240 and can easily hit 300 with extra shifts, plus no income loss for 3 years of training, i think its about the same. in fact, we got new cards fellows at my palce getting jobs for 280- and hospitalists getting jobs for 240 so think hard.
 
the salaries you are quoting dont take into account major card cuts in the next 4 years...

Sure, cards salaries may take a cut with declining reimbursement (especially for imaging), but why do you think hospitalists' salaries will be completely protected? With bundled inpatient care, negative reimbursement incentives for "preventable" readmissions/infections/DVTs, etc., I don't see how a hospitalist working 26 weeks/year could still command $240K, that's just ridiculous.
 
i guess what it comes down to is that they will always need cardiologists with all the CAD, the only thing is from a bizness standpoint, of the money is all from consults, caths, nucs, and echos, if this all gets cut up to 40%, how much are you willing to give up your life for cardiology with crappy ass 1:3 call and 48hr weekend call and long hours in the office and hospital for ever declining salaries? I think fo me personally the breaking point is 350K. Below that there are too many othe fields of medicine with far less hassle and commitment. Maybe IMGS will still do it and people who think its the most 'prestigous' but i predict if noninvasive stars paying under 350 the competitiveness of cards will tank as well as they quality of applicant and IM as a whole wil lsuffer becuase certainly the best and brightest of IM applicants are cards/gi wannabees and could have easily matched in anesthesia, ER, rads, and other lifestyle specialties. If after all this all you still want to get beaten up out there for 350K or less, I commend you but not me. I still think this hasnt sunken in to the average applicant which is why cards is still so comeptitve this year but if you ahv half a brain you WILL talk to practicing physicians and here what the impact to their bottoem line is, in my state 75% of all pts seen are Medicaide so you can imagine what panic is going through cardiologists now.
 
People will still want to do cardiology unless the reimbursements get ridiculously low, because as some others have mentioned, I would expect hospitalist salaries also to stagnate or go lower if/when reimbursements are futher cut. Also, doing primary care or being a hospitalist is just a pain because you have to deal with drug seeking patients, lots and lots of social issues, etc. (well, especially for outpatient primary care). To do really well at primary care I think you have to either refer everything to specialists or be a saint (for dealing with all the multitude of social issues, your patient who comes in with chronic back pain, drug seeking, urinary incontinence, chronic total body pain, abdominal and chest pain, and on and on, all to be dealt with in one visit).
 
i guess what it comes down to is that they will always need cardiologists with all the CAD, the only thing is from a bizness standpoint, of the money is all from consults, caths, nucs, and echos, if this all gets cut up to 40%, how much are you willing to give up your life for cardiology with crappy ass 1:3 call and 48hr weekend call and long hours in the office and hospital for ever declining salaries? I think fo me personally the breaking point is 350K. Below that there are too many othe fields of medicine with far less hassle and commitment. Maybe IMGS will still do it and people who think its the most 'prestigous' but i predict if noninvasive stars paying under 350 the competitiveness of cards will tank as well as they quality of applicant and IM as a whole wil lsuffer becuase certainly the best and brightest of IM applicants are cards/gi wannabees and could have easily matched in anesthesia, ER, rads, and other lifestyle specialties. If after all this all you still want to get beaten up out there for 350K or less, I commend you but not me. I still think this hasnt sunken in to the average applicant which is why cards is still so comeptitve this year but if you ahv half a brain you WILL talk to practicing physicians and here what the impact to their bottoem line is, in my state 75% of all pts seen are Medicaide so you can imagine what panic is going through cardiologists now.

This post is missing a lot. First, you may get beat up if you're a solo cardiologist, but in these big groups, the call is definitely not 1:3. It's a pretty good schedule from what I have seen working as a hospitalist. Second, if you think hospitalists will continue to make nearly what a cardiologist is making or an intensivist or a pulmonologist, you're being short sighted. All of these cardiologists can just hang up their stethescope and become a hospitalist. The supply demand curve will never allow that to happen. This cycle has happened before. Third, becoming an intensivist is 1 more year of training. Sure there is opportunity cost, but if quality of life is your focus that trade off shouldn't be bad (and if you truly think the life of an intensivist is great). Fourth, personally, being a hospitalist is ok now, but I don't think I can do it for the rest of my career. As Dragonfly wrote, the social issues and the drug-seeking issues are annoying to borderline aggravating right now, and I think they can only get worse. Also, I feel I am just baby-sitting patients for the specialists most of the time (thereby making their lives better by basically being the filter for the ridiculous calls they might get). Outpatient PCPs have to deal with an enormous number of complaints, but don't think this stops as a hospitalist. Many of these people don't have a PCP, and if you are a good internist, you have to optimize as much of their care as possible in the hospital setting and arrange for good established care in the outpatient setting. If you really care about being a good internist, this is tiring work, and it's not like hospital administrators care how much you spend taking care of a patient. They care only about how many you are seeing, and this number will only increase to unsafe levels - that or they will continue to hire NP/PA to see more patients. And guess who will be responsible for the care that these NPs/PAs provide. Trust me, I'm in this position now, and it's not a pretty. The NP is basically expecting me to teach her inpatient medicine while she bills for the patients I supervise (really manage myself) with her. I just told the hospitalist group, I'm not going to supervise her anymore, and now I see more patients.

Lest you think that you can avoid all this by being an intensivist, you'll have another set of problems. First shift work in the ICU setting is not the same everywhere and is definitely not the same as a hospitalist. You can really be working those whole 12 hours. And because of CYA medicine, intensivists are dumped on basically by the hospitalists and every other primary call physician at night for any call that sounds remotely urgent. A hospitalist may be able to go home after 8 hours or so and take call from home until the end of the shift. There is now way you can do this as an intensivist - well I've seen it in a rural hospital but it isn't safe. If the *&#^ hits the fan while the hospitalist is at home, who do you think is going to have to deal with it? It's tiring work being an intensivist: you don't see many older practicing intensivists, but you do see older practicing cardiologists, and it's not for economical reasons.

I'm not trying to dump on you, but from reading your posts, I think you are ignoring a lot, and it should be pointed out. These are my experiences working as a hospitalist, and while the money is much better than residency, I won't be happy doing this job forever the way it's supposed to be done. I'll be tired, angry, and filled with regret if I don't seek further training and knowledge in medicine. I want to be a cardiologist. I enjoy taking care of those patients. I got into internal medicine because of the breadth, and it's been a good experience being a hospitalist, but it's also really solidified my desire to further specialize. I don't think cardiology is going to be anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. From being in the doctor's lounge, every specialty takes a hit every few years. This year it was a cards, a few years ago it was GI. There are and will continue to be financial cuts because that's what bean counters in the political system do, but I don't think cardiology is going the way of general surgery - that was general IM.

BTW: what state do you live in that 75% of the patients are Medicaid. Just curious.
 
florida.

intensivist = $150-$200/hr * 15 twelve hr shifts per month. Do the math.
26 wks vacation a year. what me burnout? Not when im chilling at the spa every other week in Aruba.
Extra shifts = extra dinero.
yeah the hospitalists will call, but the patients will at least be sick. get em well and send em out, no social crap
Get good at 10 things and bang them out in the time of need.

noninvasive cards = less than 300K/year with echo and nucs down, call, refill my meds, clinic, hospital, maybe multiple hospitals, pushed to see more and more patiens with reimbursements down, no end to the work, maybe 4 weeks a month of vaca, bs chest pain consults, bs tachycardia (sinus) consults, bs misc consults, hand off everything to interventional to cath

hospitalist = round on 25, or admit endlessly in ed for 12 hours, make 180-240, extra shifts = extra money, 26 weeks vacation, consult the world, social work, case management, placement

im picking option #1
 
This post is missing a lot. First, you may get beat up if you're a solo cardiologist, but in these big groups, the call is definitely not 1:3. It's a pretty good schedule from what I have seen working as a hospitalist. Second, if you think hospitalists will continue to make nearly what a cardiologist is making or an intensivist or a pulmonologist, you're being short sighted. All of these cardiologists can just hang up their stethescope and become a hospitalist. The supply demand curve will never allow that to happen. This cycle has happened before. Third, becoming an intensivist is 1 more year of training. Sure there is opportunity cost, but if quality of life is your focus that trade off shouldn't be bad (and if you truly think the life of an intensivist is great). Fourth, personally, being a hospitalist is ok now, but I don't think I can do it for the rest of my career. As Dragonfly wrote, the social issues and the drug-seeking issues are annoying to borderline aggravating right now, and I think they can only get worse. Also, I feel I am just baby-sitting patients for the specialists most of the time (thereby making their lives better by basically being the filter for the ridiculous calls they might get). Outpatient PCPs have to deal with an enormous number of complaints, but don't think this stops as a hospitalist. Many of these people don't have a PCP, and if you are a good internist, you have to optimize as much of their care as possible in the hospital setting and arrange for good established care in the outpatient setting. If you really care about being a good internist, this is tiring work, and it's not like hospital administrators care how much you spend taking care of a patient. They care only about how many you are seeing, and this number will only increase to unsafe levels - that or they will continue to hire NP/PA to see more patients. And guess who will be responsible for the care that these NPs/PAs provide. Trust me, I'm in this position now, and it's not a pretty. The NP is basically expecting me to teach her inpatient medicine while she bills for the patients I supervise (really manage myself) with her. I just told the hospitalist group, I'm not going to supervise her anymore, and now I see more patients.

Lest you think that you can avoid all this by being an intensivist, you'll have another set of problems. First shift work in the ICU setting is not the same everywhere and is definitely not the same as a hospitalist. You can really be working those whole 12 hours. And because of CYA medicine, intensivists are dumped on basically by the hospitalists and every other primary call physician at night for any call that sounds remotely urgent. A hospitalist may be able to go home after 8 hours or so and take call from home until the end of the shift. There is now way you can do this as an intensivist - well I've seen it in a rural hospital but it isn't safe. If the *&#^ hits the fan while the hospitalist is at home, who do you think is going to have to deal with it? It's tiring work being an intensivist: you don't see many older practicing intensivists, but you do see older practicing cardiologists, and it's not for economical reasons.

I'm not trying to dump on you, but from reading your posts, I think you are ignoring a lot, and it should be pointed out. These are my experiences working as a hospitalist, and while the money is much better than residency, I won't be happy doing this job forever the way it's supposed to be done. I'll be tired, angry, and filled with regret if I don't seek further training and knowledge in medicine. I want to be a cardiologist. I enjoy taking care of those patients. I got into internal medicine because of the breadth, and it's been a good experience being a hospitalist, but it's also really solidified my desire to further specialize. I don't think cardiology is going to be anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. From being in the doctor's lounge, every specialty takes a hit every few years. This year it was a cards, a few years ago it was GI. There are and will continue to be financial cuts because that's what bean counters in the political system do, but I don't think cardiology is going the way of general surgery - that was general IM.

BTW: what state do you live in that 75% of the patients are Medicaid. Just curious.

I really liked your comments, speaks my mind out. Just curious, what do you feel about fields like PCCM. I know being a Hospitalist you might have had some opinion on that too. I am working as a Hospitalist in a big city currently but in every hospital there are different groups being strong. In our hospitals, for most of throracentesis PCCM refer to IR.

Please let me know the scope of PCCM. I am interested in it compared to Intensivist as I do not want to be just stuck in the units.
 
I really liked your comments, speaks my mind out. Just curious, what do you feel about fields like PCCM. I know being a Hospitalist you might have had some opinion on that too. I am working as a Hospitalist in a big city currently but in every hospital there are different groups being strong. In our hospitals, for most of throracentesis PCCM refer to IR.

Please let me know the scope of PCCM. I am interested in it compared to Intensivist as I do not want to be just stuck in the units.

I should clarify, I was not trying to dump on PCCM. I was just mentioning that although, intensive care medicine has the benefit of shift work, it's not as easy a gig as joseph1 or whatever his/her name is makes it out to be. In a medium to big size hospital, it can be tiring work, the shifts rotate (i.e. not every intensivist will work nights or days only), and the recovery can be hard on your week or days off. Second, hospitalists are valued who have more ICU medicine experience. That is they are valued by hospital adminstrators that hire them or make money from them. In some places (usually the more rural you get), hospitalists can be the sole intensivists. From an economic/business perspective, it will make sense from the bean counters to pay hospitalists in the future a little bit more and intensivists a little bit less to manage the ICU to improve their bottom line, so from that perspective and the fact that CCM fellowship is 1 year in some places, if intensive care medicine actually becomes more profitable and a better quality of life per hour, intensivists are going to be encroached upon by a whole host of people.

Regarding my thoughts of PCCM. I enjoy the ICU portion more, but that's just me. From what I've seen in the different avenues I've worked, it's easier to be PCCM in an academic setting and transition more to pulmonology. In the private setting, it's not so easy to do both, unless you are part of a PCCM group because you are having to balance your rotating ICU schedule with consults. I guess if you got a group of PCCM together who can plan this type of schedule then it's feasible, but you have to negotiate with the hospital. ICU docs work on a schedule. Pulm docs work on referral - big difference.

Regarding, scope: ICU is ICU: septic shock, GIB, pulmonary syndromes (i.e. severe pneumonias/ARDS) rule the day. You will also have to manage co-manage with cardiology (sometimes they take care of their patients themselves), neurology, and depending on hospital and your surgical colleagues, you may have to manage or co-manage their patients.

Pulm: if you are in a small hospital and you are the only Pulm doc, most likely you are dealing primarily with ICU. Where I worked in a small rural region, I only had the pulmonologist half the time because he split time with the other intensivist (who was an ID doc - see what I mean about encroachment). So half the time, I had no Pulmonologist to help me. Entities like AIP, it was basically me and the radiologist. I ended up having to transfer cases that were above my experience to the university. The need was far and few between and was a great learning experience for me but a disservice to patients. In a bigger hospital, pulm docs are consulted by the ER on just about every SOB that walks through the door. I mean EVERY patient. I come in the morning often to see pulmonology consulted for a patient with asthma / COPD excerbation or Pneumonia. I would have been blasted for these consults in residency. It's basically redundant work, so in that aspect, I think pulm part is boring (and why I feel sometimes I am babysitting patients for all of these subspecialists). Pulm docs don't do that many bronchs, or rather, it is not as common a need as say GI endoscopy. They don't put in lines. That work is done by CRNAs or the hospitalist themselves. Thoracentesis is done by ICU docs in ICU. As for the floor, it's basically the preference of the hospitalist. In the small hospital, I worked in, CTS was readily wanting to do thoracentesis if I didn't want to do it. In the ICU, CCM docs do most procedures (venous/art line, intubations, chest tubes, thoracentesis, paracentesis) as they can bill for it and are usually in control of deciding who does what.

From the pulmonogists that I see in the hospital I work at now (capacity ~400 beds), most are not doing any ICU work anymore. Some are doing some LTACH work because they don't have to physically be there 24/7, though if the *&^$ hits the fan, guess who handles it?

Again, this is just my experience from seeing them. It is thus narrow, and I think the best bet would be to get the opinion of pulm/icu docs at your hospital and on these forums. I think all medicine subspecialities are interesting, but the private world has many business intricacies you have to learn to make your decision. I decided to apply for cardiology. I can always go back and get 1 year of CCM training, but it's much difficult to do the other way. Sure there is opportunity cost, but you can't put a price on doing what you like to do, and feeling content in your work.
 
i still think that after you complete fellowship when the cuts are in ful swing you will be making far less then you imagined, proabably not much more htan you make now and you will be pissed off, especially when you are seeing 70 consults a day and not going home to see the kids. you will say what do i need this for, i should have been a hospitalist. like the cardios i see now at work. maybe you will be lucky and there will be no private practice cardio by then so you will just get a job at a hospital but then you will relaly be a biatch controlled by the admin people who will sign you up with a nice fat deal and then two years later when contracts are renegitaited you will be pissed off again. like the doctors at my hospitals. anyway, good luck and well see what happens. ill be chillin in dah icu.
 
actually ive been lucky enough to pull in some interviews for critical care and cardiology and am not sure which one to do but $$$ is important to me and i dont want to train 3 yrs and take on the cadio lifestlye and get dinged so bad it hurts. i like both specailties ALOT (and hate everything else). Every crtitical care doc i talk to says dont do it youll burn out and every cardiologist i talk to says dont do it anymore its gonna start to suck so i dont know what to do. In terms of do what you like more, i like them bouth equally, ceratinly the good points and bad points are multiple. I guess i could do BOTH but i feel like if im gonna do PGY7 ide rather maybe do interventional or EP at that point. Especially if one day I can do valve repalceements and cool stuff like that. Im having a very hard time juggling interviews to accomodate my indecisiveness since critical care seems to want to sign people fast within a week of interviewing. any ideas?
 
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actually ive been lucky enough to pull in some interviews for critical care and cardiology and am not sure which one to do but $$$ is important to me and i dont want to train 3 yrs and take on the cadio lifestlye and get dinged so bad it hurts. i like both specailties ALOT (and hate everything else). Every crtitical care doc i talk to says dont do it youll burn out and every cardiologist i talk to says dont do it anymore its gonna start to suck so i dont know what to do. In terms of do what you like more, i like them bouth equally, ceratinly the good points and bad points are multiple. I guess i could do BOTH but i feel like if im gonna do PGY7 ide rather maybe do interventional or EP at that point. Especially if one day I can do valve repalceements and cool stuff like that. Im having a very hard time juggling interviews to accomodate my indecisiveness since critical care seems to want to sign people fast within a week of interviewing. any ideas?

well in response to your other post...I won't be pissed off. Due to proper planning on my part during residency and taking a year off for work now, my loans are basically paid off (and I borrowed everything). I understand your concern about money...to a degree. You shouldn't be in medicine, you should just quit after IM residency, work as a hospitalist, get your MBA and go into the administration. Medicine has been taken over by business, and that's where the money's at. Again, you're basing everything on what's happening right now. Just a few years ago, no one was going into primary care. Now the money you can get as a hospitalist is great, and what they are even offering some primary care docs is incredible. The pendulum will swing, and then there won't be enough specialists; the pay will then shift to accomodate it. I just hope you realize all of this is transient. You need to look at things from the perspective of the bean counters (both in government and in administration). They will do everything they can to reduce costs which means reduce payments to ALL physicians. But they can only do this to such a degree, because otherwise people will start to think like you are writing and say it's not worth it.

To be honest, if you don't want to do the above and go into administration, you shouldn't go into a fellowship, and I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm just writing that based on your desire for money with least amount of sacrifice, and maximum free time possible. You should just get your ATLS certification, and start working in the ER. Then, you can get your "baller" salary without having to do fellowship. You can be an employee of a hospital like you want in the shift work schedule, and you won't lose your opportunity cost. I know someone from residency who is doing just that. But be careful, a hospital can just drop you like that.

BTW are you only applying for CCM or PCCM. Good luck in your decision
 
Funny thing is i quit business and my MBA to go get the MD to get a better job helping people. Problem is a need money now bad. I happen to be a smart enough guy with a good enough CV to get into any specialty and always thought cards was the way to go, but thought the lifestlye would suck, but figured Ide eat it for the $$$. Now if the $$$ aint gonna be so good I figured ICU since shifts and still better $$$ than hospitalist. As far as helping people in the end you can always say Pt -> ER -> hospitalist -> cards -> invasive cards -> CT surgery -> CNA -> God -> your mother etc, its just hard to find a way to fit in that is rewarding and fullfilling and not too fusterating.
 
I should clarify, I was not trying to dump on PCCM. I was just mentioning that although, intensive care medicine has the benefit of shift work, it's not as easy a gig as joseph1 or whatever his/her name is makes it out to be. In a medium to big size hospital, it can be tiring work, the shifts rotate (i.e. not every intensivist will work nights or days only), and the recovery can be hard on your week or days off. Second, hospitalists are valued who have more ICU medicine experience. That is they are valued by hospital adminstrators that hire them or make money from them. In some places (usually the more rural you get), hospitalists can be the sole intensivists. From an economic/business perspective, it will make sense from the bean counters to pay hospitalists in the future a little bit more and intensivists a little bit less to manage the ICU to improve their bottom line, so from that perspective and the fact that CCM fellowship is 1 year in some places, if intensive care medicine actually becomes more profitable and a better quality of life per hour, intensivists are going to be encroached upon by a whole host of people.

Regarding my thoughts of PCCM. I enjoy the ICU portion more, but that's just me. From what I've seen in the different avenues I've worked, it's easier to be PCCM in an academic setting and transition more to pulmonology. In the private setting, it's not so easy to do both, unless you are part of a PCCM group because you are having to balance your rotating ICU schedule with consults. I guess if you got a group of PCCM together who can plan this type of schedule then it's feasible, but you have to negotiate with the hospital. ICU docs work on a schedule. Pulm docs work on referral - big difference.

Regarding, scope: ICU is ICU: septic shock, GIB, pulmonary syndromes (i.e. severe pneumonias/ARDS) rule the day. You will also have to manage co-manage with cardiology (sometimes they take care of their patients themselves), neurology, and depending on hospital and your surgical colleagues, you may have to manage or co-manage their patients.

Pulm: if you are in a small hospital and you are the only Pulm doc, most likely you are dealing primarily with ICU. Where I worked in a small rural region, I only had the pulmonologist half the time because he split time with the other intensivist (who was an ID doc - see what I mean about encroachment). So half the time, I had no Pulmonologist to help me. Entities like AIP, it was basically me and the radiologist. I ended up having to transfer cases that were above my experience to the university. The need was far and few between and was a great learning experience for me but a disservice to patients. In a bigger hospital, pulm docs are consulted by the ER on just about every SOB that walks through the door. I mean EVERY patient. I come in the morning often to see pulmonology consulted for a patient with asthma / COPD excerbation or Pneumonia. I would have been blasted for these consults in residency. It's basically redundant work, so in that aspect, I think pulm part is boring (and why I feel sometimes I am babysitting patients for all of these subspecialists). Pulm docs don't do that many bronchs, or rather, it is not as common a need as say GI endoscopy. They don't put in lines. That work is done by CRNAs or the hospitalist themselves. Thoracentesis is done by ICU docs in ICU. As for the floor, it's basically the preference of the hospitalist. In the small hospital, I worked in, CTS was readily wanting to do thoracentesis if I didn't want to do it. In the ICU, CCM docs do most procedures (venous/art line, intubations, chest tubes, thoracentesis, paracentesis) as they can bill for it and are usually in control of deciding who does what.

From the pulmonogists that I see in the hospital I work at now (capacity ~400 beds), most are not doing any ICU work anymore. Some are doing some LTACH work because they don't have to physically be there 24/7, though if the *&^$ hits the fan, guess who handles it?

Again, this is just my experience from seeing them. It is thus narrow, and I think the best bet would be to get the opinion of pulm/icu docs at your hospital and on these forums. I think all medicine subspecialities are interesting, but the private world has many business intricacies you have to learn to make your decision. I decided to apply for cardiology. I can always go back and get 1 year of CCM training, but it's much difficult to do the other way. Sure there is opportunity cost, but you can't put a price on doing what you like to do, and feeling content in your work.


Pardon me but I am really confused as to what you are pointing at. Is PCCM medicine worth doing in the long run compared to Hospitalist or Traditional Prim Care? Couple of my seniors are in traditional prim care and are earning big time income. I know income and satisfaction are important. I have already matched for PCCM but am having 2nd thoughts now
 
A question to all hospitalist in above posts. From your discussions to physicians in diff subspeciality. With reimbursement cuts on chemo , is it worth doing hematology oncology if some one is doing hospitalist,,,,hemonc vs hospitalist $$$ and lifestyle wise...
 
As long as you maintain your general medicine board certification as a cardiologist, you can have the best of both worlds.
 
As an interventional cardiologist with 4 yrs experience, top 10 percentile training program /top 5 percentile exam results, excellent recommendations, PCI/PV/Structural heart dz/Nuc/CTA/Full Echo/Vasc Ultrasound trained with 5 cardiology board certifications when I tried to move to a bigger city in the south from a medium size city the offers I got last year:

1) $200K + 10% of my collection I can keep+ unspecified retirement plan + 3 weeks vacation=every other night and and every other weekend on-call, expected to see 20-30 pts/day on my own plus doing cath/PCI/read echo/nucs etc.

2) $300K+ 5% productivity=every night on call, every other weekend on call

3) No salary given, I can keep what I collect above the monthly $15-20,000 overhead that I would have needed to pay from day 1=every weekday night on call for my own patients, every other night interventional call for the group, every other weekend interventional/every 3rd weekend full call.

STEMI call can be tough - Expected Door to Balloon time in town 60 min - you can not be more than 10 min away from the hospital during your call practically.

Currently nurse practitioners in the above town can make $130K+benefits without night call, Monday -to-Friday 8-5 job.

I did not sign any of the above contracts.

Guys you need to ask your the hospitalist track folks to give a clear idea about their side but i know in the same town that I describe above you can make $200+ income working 1 week on-off 12hr shifts without night call seeing 15-20pts per day as a hospitalist these days.

For me to get the training what I have took 9 years of post medical school training and got my first job at age of 37 - prior to that lived on $35-42K as I never moonlighted - did do research instead (was honestly interested in academia, not just because it was required to get into the fellowship).

So for now I live on planet Mars and have similarly zero personal life as if I would have taken any of the above jobs. The only difference I have a decent salary - though this not what life is about.

My advice take in consideration on what makes you happy in medicine, do you want a family or be the part of your family, how old are you now and how long will take to get your training completed, does it matter that for you that your are the "important cardiologist"? in a small town where there is not much to do or you are happier just to be "doc" in a big city helping people the same way and enjoy some social life.
 
CardDoc22,

If you don't mind me asking, how frequently do you take call?
When you do, do you take general and interventional call?
How often do you have to go into the hospital for the size of your practice?
Lastly, if you're willing, what was your starting salary?

Thanks!

So for now I live on planet Mars and have similarly zero personal life as if I would have taken any of the above jobs. The only difference I have a decent salary - though this not what life is about.
 
well the reality is i dont want to live in the boonies
i like where i live and cardio slaries start at 250 and hospitalist 240
the cards call is terrible. basically keeping a top heavy practice going so the partners can pay themselves 350+
dont even see much future in trying to become partenr cause i think everyone will end up selling out to hospitals, especially when fee for service goes
so guess im gonns be one of the first cards fellows to go hospitalist
looking forward to heaps of time off and if i need more $$$ ill do cardio locums which pays quite well
and no call... which i can honestly no longer stand
actually regret doing the fellowship now
lifes to short to be on call that much and the prestige of the specialty has quickly eroded. feel like the er dr's biatch, which is essentially what i felt as a hospitalist anyway
at least i get 6 months to travel and control my life/time which to me is very important
i would have killed myself for 600K like partenrs in the good ol days but for marginally more than 7 on 7 off it just aint worth it
at least ill know what to do with the .03 troponins
 
Over the past few months, I have found the following interventional cardiology jobs:

1. 40 miles from NYC, $250 start, $800 partner, call 1:4
2. 50 miles from NYC, $330 start, $450 partner, call 1:6
3. 20 miles from downtown Houston, $450 start, 1mil partner, call 1:4
4. In Denver, $415 start, $550 partner, call 1:4

I fact, all of my colleagues have found jobs that are along these lines, all in different metro areas of the country. There are still good jobs out there, they are just harder to come by now.
 
Gosh - and I REALLY wanted to do cardiology. This is beyond discouraging. = (

1. you're pre-med. You have a LONG way to go. Things will be different by the time you get to the point some of these posters are (I'm still at least 2 years away).

2. Making more money in gross doesn't necessarily leave you with more disposable income. A person who makes more than 510k will have his/her taxes increase with this new "fiscal cliff" deal by 73k+... that totally blows for them. Why would you want to make that much? Just work a little less for 450k and you end up keeping a lot more of your money.
 
#1 : about 2 call per week, rough though. Large group and about half of the physicians do not take call in the group. The record six STEMIs in 2 consecutive night or 40+ calls/per single night... There are also rare night with 4-5 pages only
#2 I take both interventional and regular call
#3 Depends - our calls are worse than usual given the setup of our group: STEMI 1 out 2-3 calls, otherwise rarely go back unless Code Blue or Temp PM needed, or stat preop eval???, if busy see its till late evening and get up early to clear the overnight inflow. Many times I see the patient before the hospitalist.....
#4 400k, that was 4 yrs ago in the middle of my offers....., .was very happy with it; but I had to pay back a very large portion of it as a buy in!!! There is always a catch.... The city: no one wants to come to....actually I did fell love with the place a little bit

The main reason I like my practice that i think overall my colleagues are ethical/doing the best interest of the patient, not drilling the bank. That makes lifestyle harder, still I sleep better - I feel i can do what I am signed up to when I went to medical school.

I think someone can get big offers, but many times you will get a "salary guaranty" (hospital supported) that you have to pay back if you leave prematurely things will not work out - have seen it!!! Unless you are fed with patients (rare these days given the saturated markets) difficult to make your " promised income".
This contracts will push you to perform: the only way is in a competitive environment might be in my opinion running the cath lab in high gear - some people can do every 6 months leg stents/atherectomy on the same patient given it restenoses many times or annual stress tests - can not. Though the hospital can get several thousand or ten thousand $ for every cath lab procedure......The motivation for the salary support is understandable .... In realty the PCI numbers are gone and are going down, perif interventions - the really indicated ones are also relative rare, nuclear numbers are significantly down, echo if you read it thoroughly is not a big money maker... - if you just see patients how many you need to see to generate 1 mill income??? Look up how much you get for a medicare f/u.. you will need to see 40-50 pt per day -at least - and type that many EMR notes, how can you do that in Houston if you have to drive?? There are some special arrangements (co-managements that can be very helpful in salary support) that can still lead to very high salaries.

The cited salaries int cards - Houston with the partner perspective I would be careful, a friend confirmed the qouted Denver are salaries seems to be appropriate. My friend who was trained in Houston for 7 yrs started around 250k 4 yrs ago.
 
Over the past few months, I have found the following interventional cardiology jobs:

1. 40 miles from NYC, $250 start, $800 partner, call 1:4
2. 50 miles from NYC, $330 start, $450 partner, call 1:6
3. 20 miles from downtown Houston, $450 start, 1mil partner, call 1:4
4. In Denver, $415 start, $550 partner, call 1:4

I fact, all of my colleagues have found jobs that are along these lines, all in different metro areas of the country. There are still good jobs out there, they are just harder to come by now.

.
 
CardDoc22,

If you don't mind me asking, how frequently do you take call?
When you do, do you take general and interventional call?
How often do you have to go into the hospital for the size of your practice?
Lastly, if you're willing, what was your starting salary?

Thanks!

#1 : about 2 call per week, rough though. Large group and about half of the physicians do not take call in the group. The record six STEMIs in 2 consecutive night or 40+ calls/per single night... There are also rare night with 4-5 pages only
#2 I take both interventional and regular call
#3 Depends - our calls are worse than usual given the setup of our group: STEMI 1 out 2-3 calls, otherwise rarely go back unless Code Blue or Temp PM needed, or stat preop eval???, if busy see its till late evening and get up early to clear the overnight inflow. Many times I see the patient before the hospitalist.....
#4 380k, that was 4 yrs ago in the middle of my offers....., .was very happy with it; but I had to pay back a very large portion of it as a buy in!!! There is always a catch.... The city: no one wants to come to....actually I did fell love with the place a little bit

The main reason I like my practice that i think overall my colleagues are ethical/doing the best interest of the patient, not drilling the bank. That makes lifestyle harder, still I sleep better - I feel i can do what I am signed up to when I went to medical school.

I think someone can get big offers, but many times you will get a "salary guaranty" (hospital supported) that you have to pay back if you leave prematurely things will not work out - have seen it!!! Unless you are fed with patients (rare these days given the saturated markets) difficult to make your " promised income".
This contracts will push you to perform: the only way is in a competitive environment might be in my opinion running the cath lab in high gear - some people can do every 6 months leg stents/atherectomy on the same patient given it restenoses many times or annual stress tests - can not. Though the hospital can get several thousand or ten thousand $ for every cath lab procedure......The motivation for the salary support is understandable .... In realty the PCI numbers are gone and are going down, perif interventions - the really indicated ones are also relative rare, nuclear numbers are significantly down, echo if you read it thoroughly is not a big money maker... - if you just see patients how many you need to see to generate 1 mill income??? Look up how much you get for a medicare f/u.. you will need to see 40-50 pt per day -at least - and type that many EMR notes, how can you do that in Houston if you have to drive?? There are some special arrangements (co-managements that can be very helpful in salary support) that can still lead to very high salaries.

The cited salaries int cards - Houston with the partner perspective I would be careful, a friend confirmed the qouted Denver are salaries seems to be appropriate. My friend who was trained in Houston for 7 yrs started around 250-300k 4 yrs ago.
 
Does anyone know if it is possible to get a job directly with a hospital or hospital group (not private physician group) to staff their cath labs as an interventionalist?? The caveat being that it is not an academic position and hence would not be subjected to the dime and nickel academic salary.

Even though the physician reimbursements for diagnostic caths and PCI are laughable if you ask me, the hospitals still charge thousands of dollars for this service and so I assume having a busy interventionalist willing be to on call and make them feed their ever growing bottom line might be something they would be interested in.

In a perfect world I would like to work as an interventionalist (almost like a proceduralist if you will) in the lab. It sounds like sooner or later between the *****s at CMS and whoever dreamed up this sustainable growth medicare paycut baloney (same people?) private practice for most cardiology groups will be absorbed by hospitals anyways so why not just get it over with.

Plus I would rather be in the lab than see consults about troponemia, babysit ED docs every time somebody has a PVC or nonspecific ST change, sit in a dark room and read echo/nuc/whatever or see hoards of patients in clinic.

Someone told me the Kaiser system in California maybe similar in that they hire interventionalist to run their labs and general cards to do clinic/consult/read studies and etc. Although some may argue Kaiser is kind of an academic position I know their salary for interventionalist is much higher than most academic places.

I assume what I'm looking for probably is not widely (if at all) available out there otherwise more interventionalist would be doing this and I would have heard of it by now.

Other than maybe the Kaiser system has anyone heard of this? Is it possible or just my pipe dream?
 
for clarification, taxation is in margins (marginal tax rates), so, based on the example below, strictly speaking, those that make 510K still take home more than those who make 450K


1. you're pre-med. You have a LONG way to go. Things will be different by the time you get to the point some of these posters are (I'm still at least 2 years away).

2. Making more money in gross doesn't necessarily leave you with more disposable income. A person who makes more than 510k will have his/her taxes increase with this new "fiscal cliff" deal by 73k+... that totally blows for them. Why would you want to make that much? Just work a little less for 450k and you end up keeping a lot more of your money.
 
Thanks for the input! Still deciding between general, EP and interventional
 
True.

I just believe cardiologists ought to be fairly compensated for their additional 3+ years of training. It seems they do, but only at the expense of more hours. Hourly rate stays roughly the same - it seems.

Using your logic, ID physicians and Rheumatologists should be compensated more for two years of fellowship too.
 
Does anyone know if it is possible to get a job directly with a hospital or hospital group (not private physician group) to staff their cath labs as an interventionalist?? The caveat being that it is not an academic position and hence would not be subjected to the dime and nickel academic salary.

Even though the physician reimbursements for diagnostic caths and PCI are laughable if you ask me, the hospitals still charge thousands of dollars for this service and so I assume having a busy interventionalist willing be to on call and make them feed their ever growing bottom line might be something they would be interested in.

In a perfect world I would like to work as an interventionalist (almost like a proceduralist if you will) in the lab. It sounds like sooner or later between the *****s at CMS and whoever dreamed up this sustainable growth medicare paycut baloney (same people?) private practice for most cardiology groups will be absorbed by hospitals anyways so why not just get it over with.

Plus I would rather be in the lab than see consults about troponemia, babysit ED docs every time somebody has a PVC or nonspecific ST change, sit in a dark room and read echo/nuc/whatever or see hoards of patients in clinic.

Someone told me the Kaiser system in California maybe similar in that they hire interventionalist to run their labs and general cards to do clinic/consult/read studies and etc. Although some may argue Kaiser is kind of an academic position I know their salary for interventionalist is much higher than most academic places.

I assume what I'm looking for probably is not widely (if at all) available out there otherwise more interventionalist would be doing this and I would have heard of it by now.

Other than maybe the Kaiser system has anyone heard of this? Is it possible or just my pipe dream?
Rocksteady, such jobs do exist. The problem, though, is that in those jobs you will have no patients that are your own. Your inherent value to a hospital/practice is in your patients. No patients = no value = no job security. If you are just a proceduralist, you are easily replaceable by another proceduralist who is younger, has just learned the trendy techniques in fellowship, and is cheaper.

Also, you are looking at consults like a fellow...ie, only the interesting consults are the ones that are worth doing. As an attending you will be able to bill for that 5 minute PVC consult.
 
Also, you are looking at consults like a fellow...ie, only the interesting consults are the ones that are worth doing. As an attending you will be able to bill for that 5 minute PVC consult.

This.

While the cool stuff is cool, the bull**** consults are what make your boat payment.
 
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