Cardiology or Ophthalmology

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Chalazion12

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So I think I've narrowed it down to these 2.

Cardiology:
Pro: Interesting field, lots of different procedures, good pt interaction, good balance between high octane and mellow time. Great pay.
Con: Hours can add up, lots of call, high stress life, must go IM route, research is a must, 7 years of residency

Ophthalmology:
Pro: Good pt interaction, good balance between clinic and surgery, great hours, low stress, ok pay for the time
Con: Can be boring at times, highly competitive match

So what do you guys think? I really like both fields. Can anyone add anything to this list? :)

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chicks dig cardiologists, not pansy eye docs
 
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Don't know much about cardiology, except for my friends that do adult and/or pediatric cards. As an Ophthalmologist, however, I can truly say that I'm never bored. One of the great parts of my job is the long term interactions that I am developing with my patients (caveat - I'm a glaucoma specialist)`. Every patient might not have a "fascinoma" but I really like my patients. Decide which field's bread and butter you enjoy, and do that.

It is difficult to get into residency, but more than doable.

Besides, it sounds like you've already made up your mind - your handle is Chalazion12 (for you cardiologists, that's an eye term;) )
 
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...and cards fellowship match is probably at least as competitive as ophthy residency match.

but ultimately, any field is going to have the 80% common bread and butter stuff... if you hate heart failure and chest pain w/o heart attacks, then don't do cards. Likewise, if you hate glaucoma and diabetic retinopathy (not sure if that's really what they see the most or not?), then don't do ophthy... the ventricular septal rupture or super cool eye findings will add to but not make up the bulk of what you treat.

And although you are looking for a way to simplify the dichotomy, know that even within each, there is a huge spectrum of intensity/hours/pay/etc (academic heart failure attdg vs outpatient EP doc in cards for example). I'm sure there is an equal spectrum for different ophthy fields.

goodluck!
 
As a follow-up, Ophtho match day was today. For you to get a sense of competitiveness, average step 1 board score for matched seniors the past few years has been 230, and 80-85% of US seniors have matched (overall match rate 75%).
 
So I think I've narrowed it down to these 2.

Cardiology:
Pro: Interesting field, lots of different procedures, good pt interaction, good balance between high octane and mellow time. Great pay.
Con: Hours can add up, lots of call, high stress life, must go IM route, research is a must, 7 years of residency

Ophthalmology:
Pro: Good pt interaction, good balance between clinic and surgery, great hours, low stress, ok pay for the time
Con: Can be boring at times, highly competitive match

So what do you guys think? I really like both fields. Can anyone add anything to this list? :)

What'd you end up deciding?

-Ice
 
I've decided on ophthalmology. I don't think I can handle the working hours that cards would require. I get to do some surgery and clinic time, but it is all in a relaxed environment. Are you leaning towards one or the other?
 
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I've decided on ophthalmology. I don't think I can handle the working hours that cards would require. I get to do some surgery and clinic time, but it is all in a relaxed environment. Are you leaning towards one or the other?

opthalmology is like 60 to 40 cards. The cardiology lifestyle is what's killing me right now with the cool procedures in ophtho (and I'm a dude, so it's not even the maternity thing I'd be dealing with).

I guess the real question is will I be enticed by the science and procedures of ophthalmology throughout my career? Does that even matter (i.e. does anyone really care about that stuff when you're like 50)?

I know I like the subject matter far more in cards than in ophtho, but I love the procedures in ophtho far more than I do in cards (interventional or EP).

Disclaimer: rant beginning

I hate this, that I have to know somehow what will be important to me 25 years from now when I've barely lived that sum of years already. How the heck am I supposed to know what it's like to have a wife and kids and a mortgage when I barely do my laundry on time and eat breakfast food while watching the NBA at night? I don't even know what it's like to BE in a LTR let alone have a wife! This has bothered me to the point where I'm spending countless hours on the internet looking up other forums and blogs trying to ascertain what *most* people care about at that age. On the one hand, people say that if you don't do what you "love" and are "interested in", then life sucks. But then other people say that if your hours are tough (which presumably means you cannot spend time with your families), then you will hate life no matter what.

Sorry for the ranting. I'd like to hear what you (and others think), if you're willing. While I'm hoping for unique answers, I'm expecting the same things as what I've seen earlier. And that's not anyone's fault; it's just a freaking hard decision with no right answers. Do something you really like a lot that might burn you out, or do something you like somewhat less (subject material wise) that is more probable to spending time with the looming wife and kids....

-Ice
 
First of all, hours may be bad, but not THAT bad. What's the worst that will happen? You wake up at 5 am and come home around 6-7 pm. That's about 12 hours a day. You work 5 days a week - 60 hrs a week. You have one night a week of call - there's 30 hours. That easily makes it around 80-90 hours a week. But most physicians are in groups where they split call and they take turns rounding on the weekends.

Sure cardiologists are busy, but they're not busy to the point where you're an investment banker type of person. Don't worry about it too much.
 
The answer seems easy to me, you like both of them and so you will probably be happy in either specialty.

I faced a similar dilemma between ophthalmology and otolaryngology. I registered for both matches until I finally picked ophthalmology & withdrew from the other match. I have no doubt that I would have been happy in ENT though.

The hours of the private practice cardiologist are just not that bad, and you shouldn't make a career choice based on the residency hours, in my opinion.
 
I'd like to hear what you (and others think), if you're willing. While I'm hoping for unique answers, I'm expecting the same things as what I've seen earlier. And that's not anyone's fault; it's just a freaking hard decision with no right answers. Do something you really like a lot that might burn you out, or do something you like somewhat less (subject material wise) that is more probable to spending time with the looming wife and kids....

Relax man. You cannot predict what you will be wanting in twenty years - though it might likely be whatever it is that you don't have. ;)

Both specialties are lucrative and offer good job satisfaction.

A very smart poster above said that you would likely be happy in either field...and I completely agree with him. This isn't a career choice that really has a down side. Both Cardiology and Ophthamology are great paths!

The hours in private practice Cardiology are not as severe as you seem to think - I've been relatively close to an Interventional Cardiologist for about four years. It's very do-able and obviously has significant benefits.

Ophthamology is a great choice, too.

Best wishes.
 
Thanks guys for your help! I'm still a bit undecided, but I certainly appreciate your (humoring?) responses....I suppose SDN has a habit of painting the extremes (and usually the negative ones) as indicative of an entire field.

-Ice

P.S. Now watch, in like in 7 years I'll end up being a neonatologist...:laugh:
 
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Hey there, I am also deciding between ophtho (what I always supposed I would go into) and cards (what I recently realized I want to go into).

I've done research in ophtho and find eye phys/pathology fascinating, but throughout this year (3rd) I've found that what keeps me interested in medicine at all is the trust that patients place in their docs, and the major improvements that we can make in their lives using that trust. I don't want to spend the next 50 years telling my patients that what worries them most (and may ultimately kill them) is better discussed with someone else.

Anyways, that is one of my numerous takes on the matter. I'm leaning toward cards.

Feel free to PM me to talk some more.
 
I too am considering both cardiology and otolaryngology. The pros and cons I'm considering haven't yet been mentioned here, though, so I'll throw them out there.

Otolaryngology appears to have by far the best combination of everything. Lifestyle, pay, surgery AND medicine; really complex anatomy. What bothers me is that these guys, having been in practice for some years, seem to know very little about the whole rest of the body. Maybe it's immaturity but I just can't see myself being a doctor who can't answer simple questions about the liver or atherosclerosis.

Cardiologists, on the other hand, are complete, comprehensive doctors. They've been trained in healing the whole body and aren't limited to the top 20% of it (lengthwise). What bothers me here is the uncertainty of grabbing the fellowship, and of getting stuck with internal medicine (certainly not so bad for some people but not what I want to do). If I were to choose ENT it would all be over; no more stress about performance, matching, etc. With cardiology you have to wait two-to-three more years just for a guarantee that you'll be able to enter the field you want. All I hear about is how competitive it is...
 
I too am considering both cardiology and otolaryngology. The pros and cons I'm considering haven't yet been mentioned here, though, so I'll throw them out there.

Otolaryngology appears to have by far the best combination of everything. Lifestyle, pay, surgery AND medicine; really complex anatomy. What bothers me is that these guys, having been in practice for some years, seem to know very little about the whole rest of the body. Maybe it's immaturity but I just can't see myself being a doctor who can't answer simple questions about the liver or atherosclerosis.

Cardiologists, on the other hand, are complete, comprehensive doctors. They've been trained in healing the whole body and aren't limited to the top 20% of it (lengthwise). What bothers me here is the uncertainty of grabbing the fellowship, and of getting stuck with internal medicine (certainly not so bad for some people but not what I want to do). If I were to choose ENT it would all be over; no more stress about performance, matching, etc. With cardiology you have to wait two-to-three more years just for a guarantee that you'll be able to enter the field you want. All I hear about is how competitive it is...

I think that your concerns about having to do another match for cards are legitimate; however, if you are a good internal medicine candidate which you likely are if you are considering ENT, and match at a good program, you will have already greatly improved your odds at matching in cards. if you look at the top 10 or 20 medicine programs, they all have very high rates of matching into cards.
 
not that this should be important to anyone, but its important to realize the average private practice ophtho or ent doc makes like 240k. unless you do retina, your income for all intensive purposes caps out at <300. cards is where the cash is amongst these fields. EP docs making like 650k, interventionalists pulling in >600k. sky's the limit.
 
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I too am considering both cardiology and otolaryngology. The pros and cons I'm considering haven't yet been mentioned here, though, so I'll throw them out there.

Otolaryngology appears to have by far the best combination of everything. Lifestyle, pay, surgery AND medicine; really complex anatomy. What bothers me is that these guys, having been in practice for some years, seem to know very little about the whole rest of the body. Maybe it's immaturity but I just can't see myself being a doctor who can't answer simple questions about the liver or atherosclerosis.

Cardiologists, on the other hand, are complete, comprehensive doctors. They've been trained in healing the whole body and aren't limited to the top 20% of it (lengthwise). What bothers me here is the uncertainty of grabbing the fellowship, and of getting stuck with internal medicine (certainly not so bad for some people but not what I want to do). If I were to choose ENT it would all be over; no more stress about performance, matching, etc. With cardiology you have to wait two-to-three more years just for a guarantee that you'll be able to enter the field you want. All I hear about is how competitive it is...

I think it's harder to get into ENT than it is to land a cardiology fellowship. ENT is possibly the most difficult field to get into after plastics and derm. Cardiology on the other hand is a mixed bag. I've known some brilliant and some very average residents who have gone on to cardiology fellowships.
 
not that this should be important to anyone, but its important to realize the average private practice ophtho or ent doc makes like 240k. unless you do retina, your income for all intensive purposes caps out at <300. cards is where the cash is amongst these fields. EP docs making like 650k, interventionalists pulling in >600k. sky's the limit.


Sure the sky is the limit...if you want to spend your life working. The cards docs making over 600,000 either have great business scene, are academic cath guys with lucrative pharm/device connections (see Martin Leon), or work their ass off. If you make 600,000 as a cardiologist, you're not coming home before 8 PM.
 
I think it's harder to get into ENT than it is to land a cardiology fellowship. ENT is possibly the most difficult field to get into after plastics and derm. Cardiology on the other hand is a mixed bag. I've known some brilliant and some very average residents who have gone on to cardiology fellowships.

that's the way it should be since you don't have to be smart to be a good cardiologist. ID, rheum, endocrine -that's where the truly intellectual need to be...
 
not that this should be important to anyone, but its important to realize the average private practice ophtho or ent doc makes like 240k. unless you do retina, your income for all intensive purposes caps out at <300. cards is where the cash is amongst these fields. EP docs making like 650k, interventionalists pulling in >600k. sky's the limit.

Not only is this false info, it is the wrong way to choose a profession. You should do something that you like and will enjoy regardless of the monetary gains. Please do some better research before you quote salarys. Ophtho and ENT docs make $ comparable to cardiologists. Here is a good article to shine some light: http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=379594

To everyone out there, be vary about choosing a profession based on $. It usually leads to one being miserable way down the road!
 
Not only is this false info, it is the wrong way to choose a profession. You should do something that you like and will enjoy regardless of the monetary gains. Please do some better research before you quote salarys. Ophtho and ENT docs make $ comparable to cardiologists. Here is a good article to shine some light: http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=379594

To everyone out there, be vary about choosing a profession based on $. It usually leads to one being miserable way down the road!


Also, consider the fact that ophthalmologists on average probably work fewer hours per week than cardiologists. This may partially explain the income disparity. It's not unusual to see ophthalmologists working 4.5 days/week (40-45 hrs/week).
 
here's the research: http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

you can see cardiologists generally speaking make more than ent or ophtho. the point i'm trying to make is that if money is very important to you, you can make bank in cardiology by working really hard. ophtho and ent are capped around the ~300 figure unless you do retina or plastics. if you don't believe me, try asking your local city ophthalmologist what he/she makes and you'll be pleasantly surprised. but of course salary shouldn't be important to anyone. :thumbdown:
 
here's the research: http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

you can see cardiologists generally speaking make more than ent or ophtho. the point i'm trying to make is that if money is very important to you, you can make bank in cardiology by working really hard. ophtho and ent are capped around the ~300 figure unless you do retina or plastics. if you don't believe me, try asking your local city ophthalmologist what he/she makes and you'll be pleasantly surprised. but of course salary shouldn't be important to anyone. :thumbdown:

Again, you make a mistake by quoting average salary info made by an average physician (ophtho or cards). Your reasoning is wrong, for one. since on avg. a cardiologists works more than an ophthalmologist or an ENT doc. This may partially explain the higher quoted income - if an ophtho chooses to work more, his/her income increases. Ophtho is not capped at 300. You are again spreading false info based on your beliefs. An avg established ophtho doc makes about 250K working 40-50 hrs/week. I personally know many ophthalmologists who make well over 500k and they are not retina or oculoplastic guys. This is not out of the norm. A comprehensive ophthalmologist can easily do PRPs if he/she feels confident and make $. Please do not misguide folks on here. If you want to make $$, you can work really hard as an internist and make $$. I would like to know where you get your info from.
 
Again, you make a mistake by quoting average salary info made by an average physician (ophtho or cards). Your reasoning is wrong, for one. since on avg. a cardiologists works more than an ophthalmologist or an ENT doc. This may partially explain the higher quoted income - if an ophtho chooses to work more, his/her income increases. Ophtho is not capped at 300. You are again spreading false info based on your beliefs. An avg established ophtho doc makes about 250K working 40-50 hrs/week. I personally know many ophthalmologists who make well over 500k and they are not retina or oculoplastic guys. This is not out of the norm. A comprehensive ophthalmologist can easily do PRPs if he/she feels confident and make $. Please do not misguide folks on here. If you want to make $$, you can work really hard as an internist and make $$. I would like to know where you get your info from.

i will correct myself. ent and ophtho are not capped at 300. i'm going to stop discussing this. my final message is don't be too surprised when you become an ophthalomologist and you're applying for private practice jobs in cities where the market is always saturated, and the starting salary is low 200s. if you're lucky enough to get into retina or oculoplastics (like 40 spots in the entire country), you're going to make millions.
 
i will correct myself. ent and ophtho are not capped at 300. i'm going to stop discussing this. my final message is don't be too surprised when you become an ophthalomologist and you're applying for private practice jobs in cities where the market is always saturated, and the starting salary is low 200s. if you're lucky enough to get into retina or oculoplastics (like 40 spots in the entire country), you're going to make millions.

Finding a job in a saturated market in any field is going to bring down your income. Its a simple principle of demand and supply. I would be hard pressed to find cards guys who make 350K their initial year out in NYC. However, if you look around NYC is 50-75 mile radius, there is plenty of opportunity to bring home the big paycheck - this applies to cards, ophtho, ent, etc. Again, retina and oculplastics are lucrative sub-specialties of ophtho but, by no means are they the end all and be all in making $$. There is plenty of opportunity to make a considerable amount of $$ in any ophtho field. BTW, there are about 100ish retina spots in the country that accept fellowships - one might argue that there only a few good ones, but if you want to do retina, you will get retina somewhere. Oculoplastics is a mixed jumble as you have ASOPRS fellowships and non-ASOPRS fellowshiprs. There about 60ish ASOPRS fellowships and I cant quote the # of non-ASOPRS off the top of my head. Again, if you want to do oculplastics, you can definitely get it somewhere. Hope this clears up some of the misconceptions about ophtho.
 
I don't want to add more fuel to the fire. But, having grown up in a family of physicians and seeing many family friends who are cardiologists, I can definitely attest to some of the cards salaries that are being claimed. While, I don't know what the cap for ENT or ophtho is (although, I have heard the 300-350 range, unless you're doing cosmetics plastics), I do know that, literally, the sky's the limit for cards.

While you shouldn't be pursuing a specialty only for monetary gain, of course ( as we all know ), you can make a lot of money in cards, at least right now. I know at least a handful of private solo practice caridologists that are making 7 figures. Yes, they work thier asses off (70-80 hrs/wk), but they also love it. But, that's sort of the beauty of cards, if you want to live a more comfortable life, just do imaging/nuclear, see patients once/twice a week in clinic, and you can live a radiologist type of lifestyle, of course at the expense of making 7 figures. But, if you want to make a lot of money early in your career and love doing procedures and seeing patients, you can easily do that as well. The guys that are making this much absolutely love what they do, and I think that's the impt point to take home. We're all going to make enough money to live very comfortably, but you should really enjoy what you do. One of the things I've heard consistently over and over again from the IC's, is the amount of patient satisfaction/rewards they get. When you hear, "doc, thanks for saving my life", or "doc, you're right under God for me", it justifies the hard work.

I, too, was thinking about ENT and rads actually, but after doing a month of ENT, I realized that the lucrativity and lifestyle in ENT doesn't come from head and neck cancer surgeries, but from general ENT (scopes, tubes, thyroids, tonsils, etc.) and cosmetic palstics (which I am not interested in)...and while all these are important and can drastically improve patiets' lives, I was more interested in taking care of patients with more than elective problems. And, that's the problem, becuase it's the elctive cases that provide for the better lifestyle. I think ultimately, we all need some kind of validation in our lives, at least at some point in our career, otherwise we probably wouldn't be in medicine. And, it's that validation that keeps you going, IMHO. Money comes and goes, and we're all gonna make money, there has to be something bigger than money that will drive you to wake up each day or wake upa t 2AM to go and do that angioplasty. ANd, of course, rads doesn't provide for any of this directly (even IR, since they're never primary).

Also, ultiumately, we just rationalize why one specialty is better for us than another. ENT and ophtho, I'm sure, are great fields. But, for someone interested in cards, and knowing that it's a harder lifestyle relatively, we just rationalize it to ourselves why cards is better for us than another field, like I've done. None of us have enough exposure or experience in med school to really weigh out specialties in great detail, and you have to end up justifying it to yourself why you're doing one thing over another. That's the bottom line, I think. It's hard to predict what's gonna make you 30 years from now--pick something u like now, that has growth potential (i think cards and rads are huge in that aspect), there's a bigger reason other than money (patient satisfaction), and go for it. Medicine will be a majority of our lives, irrespective of what specialty we go into, but I also think,that family and home dyanmics and things outside of work really dictate how happy you are. IF you have a caring and supportive family, you'll be happy, I think, no matter what field you go into, if you enjoy it to some degree. Obviously, this is all IMHO.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Just my $0.02.
 
Finding a job in a saturated market in any field is going to bring down your income. Its a simple principle of demand and supply. I would be hard pressed to find cards guys who make 350K their initial year out in NYC. However, if you look around NYC is 50-75 mile radius, there is plenty of opportunity to bring home the big paycheck - this applies to cards, ophtho, ent, etc. Again, retina and oculplastics are lucrative sub-specialties of ophtho but, by no means are they the end all and be all in making $$. There is plenty of opportunity to make a considerable amount of $$ in any ophtho field. BTW, there are about 100ish retina spots in the country that accept fellowships - one might argue that there only a few good ones, but if you want to do retina, you will get retina somewhere. Oculoplastics is a mixed jumble as you have ASOPRS fellowships and non-ASOPRS fellowshiprs. There about 60ish ASOPRS fellowships and I cant quote the # of non-ASOPRS off the top of my head. Again, if you want to do oculplastics, you can definitely get it somewhere. Hope this clears up some of the misconceptions about ophtho.

I think, generally speaking, when people talk about caps and sky being the limit for certain specialties and not others, it has to do with more of what reimbursements are for procedures and the demands for those procedures. I don't know anything about ophtho, so I am not going to comment specifically about that specialty. But, I know for ENT, you probably can't make 900k-a million by doing general ENT even if u worked 70-80 hrs like the cards guys (unless doing plastics of course), becuase the reimbursements are just not that hight and you're dependent on a lot of ancillary staff and resources (OR, anesthesia, etc.). Plus, you probably have to go to a remote area to bank on those specialties by hvaing a larger case load. You just can't make a ton of money by doing tonsils all day, where as u can by doing angioplasties all day.
 
i agree with you hidden truth. you can make A LOT more money in cardiology than ENT/ophtho all things equal. like you said, to be making a lot in ENT/ophtho you have to some very special things or practice in rural markets. a lot of people going into those two fields for the big money will be disappointed. the sky is the limit for cardiology.
 
Interesting posts previously. I personally know all of the cardiologists in a 14 member group, and about half of the cardiologists in and even larger group (21 currently), and all but the most senior (> 50 yrs old) work 80+ hours per week. They all make a TON of money, but I hear a recurring complaint over and over again from them, and it is that they don't get to spend enough time with their family. Several of them are either divorced due to problems that arose from their work schedule, or are on their 2nd, 3rd, and in two cases - their 4th marriage. So for now, the money is definitely there.

What they tell me is that they are worried that there are several recent studies that have been completed that say a few alarming things:

1) Stents may not be as good as once thought.
2) The drug eluting stents may actually cause more morbidity and mortality due to potential embolic/thrombotic events that are supposedly assoicated with them.
3) There are pharmaceutical treatments on the very near horizon that may actually supercede the need for PCI.

What does this mean? Well, what they are thinking is that it could be the beginning of the end of the "Gold rush" as far as Cards are concerned. If in fact, there ends up being a decreased need for PCI at some point, Cardiology will be vastly over-staffed everywhere due to the intentional increase in the training of interventionalists over the past 20 years. What could this mean? Well, cards could see a situation similar to the one that Cardio-thoracic surgeons have found themselves in due to PCI largely replacing CABG. This would mean that the cards job market would be flooded (can't find a job) & when you do, the pay would be abysmal.

I told you guys all of this, not as a Card hater (my dad is one), but as someone who is simply saying that if you pick a specialty based on where the money is today, you may be very disappointed tomorrow. Cards has been good to my family monetarily, but my dad is on his third marriage and he came to all of 2 (two) of my extra-curricular activities my entire life. I love him, but I will not be him. I am actually going into either Allergy/Immunology or Rhematology, so I can't say anything about Optho or ENT.

Sorry for the novel. Just my personal experience.
 
Also, ultiumately, we just rationalize why one specialty is better for us than another. ENT and ophtho, I'm sure, are great fields. But, for someone interested in cards, and knowing that it's a harder lifestyle relatively, we just rationalize it to ourselves why cards is better for us than another field, like I've done. None of us have enough exposure or experience in med school to really weigh out specialties in great detail, and you have to end up justifying it to yourself why you're doing one thing over another. That's the bottom line, I think. It's hard to predict what's gonna make you 30 years from now--pick something u like now, that has growth potential (i think cards and rads are huge in that aspect), there's a bigger reason other than money (patient satisfaction), and go for it. Medicine will be a majority of our lives, irrespective of what specialty we go into, but I also think,that family and home dyanmics and things outside of work really dictate how happy you are. IF you have a caring and supportive family, you'll be happy, I think, no matter what field you go into, if you enjoy it to some degree. Obviously, this is all IMHO.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Just my $0.02.



That was some superb advice. I think as human beings we all kinda quantify how happy we will be if we make X amount of money. Nothing wrong with that mind you, but I think being able to enjoy the fruits of all your hard work is important too. Generally speaking, I don't know much about Cards as a profession, but I do know that it is a LOT of hardwork, on average moreso than most other professions.

I met one guy who was a Cardiologist who told me how great the profession was and how good the salary is. Then, he told me about his crumbling marriage and the fact that he never sees his kids hardly ever. Coming home, eats dinner with them, puts them to bed. That was the extent of his relationship with them. His parents last few years, he hardly talked to them. And when they both died, he realized that he had neglected family for work. I ask this to those out there like myself.

If family is the most important thing for you. Then you have to ask yourself, why do you put work over family? How much would you give up to see your mother or father one last time? How much would you give up to see your kids every day?
 
Great posts guys! I agree with bojack...my father was a general surgeon and I barely knew him growing up. I won't make the same mistake. I went into ophthalmology because I really like the procedures and the patients usually are happy with their results. Ophtho doesn't pay what it used to, but it still can pay well.

http://www.merritthawkins.com/oppor...2613&region=Southwest&specialty=Ophthalmology

Also, if you go into a specialty because of $, you better like it, because if reimbursements go down...you better like what you're doing.
 
Interesting posts previously. I personally know all of the cardiologists in a 14 member group, and about half of the cardiologists in and even larger group (21 currently), and all but the most senior (> 50 yrs old) work 80+ hours per week. They all make a TON of money, but I hear a recurring complaint over and over again from them, and it is that they don't get to spend enough time with their family. Several of them are either divorced due to problems that arose from their work schedule, or are on their 2nd, 3rd, and in two cases - their 4th marriage. So for now, the money is definitely there.

What they tell me is that they are worried that there are several recent studies that have been completed that say a few alarming things:

1) Stents may not be as good as once thought.
2) The drug eluting stents may actually cause more morbidity and mortality due to potential embolic/thrombotic events that are supposedly assoicated with them.
3) There are pharmaceutical treatments on the very near horizon that may actually supercede the need for PCI.

What does this mean? Well, what they are thinking is that it could be the beginning of the end of the "Gold rush" as far as Cards are concerned. If in fact, there ends up being a decreased need for PCI at some point, Cardiology will be vastly over-staffed everywhere due to the intentional increase in the training of interventionalists over the past 20 years. What could this mean? Well, cards could see a situation similar to the one that Cardio-thoracic surgeons have found themselves in due to PCI largely replacing CABG. This would mean that the cards job market would be flooded (can't find a job) & when you do, the pay would be abysmal.

I told you guys all of this, not as a Card hater (my dad is one), but as someone who is simply saying that if you pick a specialty based on where the money is today, you may be very disappointed tomorrow. Cards has been good to my family monetarily, but my dad is on his third marriage and he came to all of 2 (two) of my extra-curricular activities my entire life. I love him, but I will not be him. I am actually going into either Allergy/Immunology or Rhematology, so I can't say anything about Optho or ENT.

Sorry for the novel. Just my personal experience.

You make some valid points. And, of course your rationale for how a specialty becomes lost like CTS is true, just generally speaking.

Obviously none of us know the future of cards. But, we do know that medicine has and is continuing to evolve into as minimally invasive as possible. So, first off, if there's no PCI (which I don't think will happen), there will be other things that people will learn how to fix by interventional techniques. I'm returning from a year off at a high powered research place, and the guys here are trying to pubish a new method they have established to fix mitral regurg. Aortic valve replacements are already being done by interventionalists (obviously not as bread and butter as PCI). So, things come and go, but I don't think you can say that cards will be like CTS, because if a minimally invasive procedure comes out, it's the cards guys that are gonna be doing it.

Also, in terms of PCI, there is no way that it is going to be lost in the relative near future. First off, in private practice, patients dictate their care (for those of you that don't know). Patients demand what they want done if they are given options. Secondly, the study that everyone talks about stents not being as effective is the Courage trial, as we all know. In real life those type of patients rarely exist. The average joe does not have the most optimal BP, cholesterol, sugar, etc. that he can choose medical rx as the option vs. PCI. Additionally, living in a technologically and media driven society, people want the "best" therapy out there. If you give the averae joe the option to put a stent vs. meds, they are more than likely to choose a stent, unless of course there are new complications and events we come to find out. Medical therapy, as shown in these studies, is not practical for most Americans. People want something "done" usually.

On another note, I was talking to a really successful cards guy the other day over dinner (a friend's dad), and he was telling me about all these new bio-degradable stents that are now coming out (i don't know much about them). So, bottom line is, technology and biotechnology companies are always striving for better and better for, obviously, economically driven purposes. And, new things will come out if DES are known to be a problem. Just medical therapy is hardly ever going to become the treatment of choice, because it's not practical and effective for most Americans. And, bottom line is, when there is an option, your patient dictates their care.

Yes, you should always do something you're interested in. But, I just wanted to shine some light into this increasingly heated debate about stents since the Courage trial has been published.

Also, sorry to hear about your dad, but YOU dictate how much you want to work and how supportive your spouse is. You don't have to work 80 hours if u want to make 3-400k, but if u want to make a million, yes u do. Other specialties usually don't have the sky as a limit, and that's why cards, I think, gets labeled as a ridonculously difficult lifestyle. Most people fail to mention, at the expense of....$$$$. Work 50 hrs a week and make 300K and see your kids. Also, I think the spouse situation is very dependent on the person and the culture. If you have a strong, supporting spouse, and understands that working 80 hrs/wk the first 7-10 years of your career is acceptable, so you can live comfortably down the road and work less later, it shouldn't be a problem. The marriage thing is way too relative and quite dependent from person to person. I think where most people get into trouble is the greed factor and the stress from working ridiculous hours that carries into the family dynamics. Obviously we should be sensible enough to draw the line somewhere. Again, just my humble opinion.
 
You make some valid points. And, of course your rationale for how a specialty becomes lost like CTS is true, just generally speaking.

Obviously none of us know the future of cards. But, we do know that medicine has and is continuing to evolve into as minimally invasive as possible. So, first off, if there's no PCI (which I don't think will happen), there will be other things that people will learn how to fix by interventional techniques. I'm returning from a year off at a high powered research place, and the guys here are trying to pubish a new method they have established to fix mitral regurg. Aortic valve replacements are already being done by interventionalists (obviously not as bread and butter as PCI). So, things come and go, but I don't think you can say that cards will be like CTS, because if a minimally invasive procedure comes out, it's the cards guys that are gonna be doing it.

Also, in terms of PCI, there is no way that it is going to be lost in the relative near future. First off, in private practice, patients dictate their care (for those of you that don't know). Patients demand what they want done if they are given options. Secondly, the study that everyone talks about stents not being as effective is the Courage trial, as we all know. In real life those type of patients rarely exist. The average joe does not have the most optimal BP, cholesterol, sugar, etc. that he can choose medical rx as the option vs. PCI. Additionally, living in a technologically and media driven society, people want the "best" therapy out there. If you give the averae joe the option to put a stent vs. meds, they are more than likely to choose a stent, unless of course there are new complications and events we come to find out. Medical therapy, as shown in these studies, is not practical for most Americans. People want something "done" usually.

On another note, I was talking to a really successful cards guy the other day over dinner (a friend's dad), and he was telling me about all these new bio-degradable stents that are now coming out (i don't know much about them). So, bottom line is, technology and biotechnology companies are always striving for better and better for, obviously, economically driven purposes. And, new things will come out if DES are known to be a problem. Just medical therapy is hardly ever going to become the treatment of choice, because it's not practical and effective for most Americans. And, bottom line is, when there is an option, your patient dictates their care.

Yes, you should always do something you're interested in. But, I just wanted to shine some light into this increasingly heated debate about stents since the Courage trial has been published.

Also, sorry to hear about your dad, but YOU dictate how much you want to work and how supportive your spouse is. You don't have to work 80 hours if u want to make 3-400k, but if u want to make a million, yes u do. Other specialties usually don't have the sky as a limit, and that's why cards, I think, gets labeled as a ridonculously difficult lifestyle. Most people fail to mention, at the expense of....$$$$. Work 50 hrs a week and make 300K and see your kids. Also, I think the spouse situation is very dependent on the person and the culture. If you have a strong, supporting spouse, and understands that working 80 hrs/wk the first 7-10 years of your career is acceptable, so you can live comfortably down the road and work less later, it shouldn't be a problem. The marriage thing is way too relative and quite dependent from person to person. I think where most people get into trouble is the greed factor and the stress from working ridiculous hours that carries into the family dynamics. Obviously we should be sensible enough to draw the line somewhere. Again, just my humble opinion.


I like your arguments. In fact I've made the same ones myself to the Cardiologists that I know. I think that they all want you to be right as well. The only thing that I think you have failed to consider is that in today's healthcare system, most patients really aren't able to control their treatment options that stringently.

Unfortunately, the majority of the patient population has to rely on private insurance, medicare/medicaid, or some other form of assistance to pay for their treatment. In this case, the private insurance company or medicare/medicaid, etc ultimately dictates (albeit indirectly) what treatment the patient will receive based on what the ins. co or the govt. is willing to pay for and how much they are willing to pay for it.

What really scares the guys that I know is that some medical options on the horizon will definitely be much less expensive than PCI (hundreds?? vs. thousands of dollars), and if proven effective, could become the standard of care for patients with stable CAD. If this is the case, the ins co's and medicare will most definitely make it much more difficult to justify a $5,000 procedure that may have to be repeated at some point when there is a non-invasive, effective medical treatment for $100/mth. Since most patients rely on insurance or assistance in some form, they will probably be unwilling or unable to pay out of pocket for services that the insurance co may deem as un-necessary or inappropriate when they can take a pill that their ins co will pay for that will ultimately do the same thing.

I will certainly not argue with you that unstable patients will continue to need PCI or CABG. Given the choice between the two, I would certainly choose PCI. But, I would seriously have to consider a medical option, if proven as effective with stable disease, without having to do either PCI or CABG.

As far as the working hours, I will agree that you are right in principle. However, unless you are going to be in a solo practice that doesn't take call, and doesn't admit to any hospital (no hospital priveledges), then you are going to be working in a group of multiple cardiologists. If you are in a multi-member group, the group probably won't stand for you to work less even with less pay, because they all want to work less too and they're not going to stand for the new guy or gal have cush duty while they are still working all of the hours.

In my dad's group, they've voted out 4 partners in the past three years just because of this particular issue. From what they tell me, this is happening more and more in other groups because of this.

Anyway, my original point was simply that you need to choose your specialty based on something other than what you think is cool right now, or what you think that you can make the most money at due to the current market. Choose something because you will enjoy both your personal and professional life, for the rest of your life.

I'll get off my soap box now.
 
Great reading above. Many points made, are the same points I have heard from family friends who are cards. What I worry about, or futuristically speaking, is I played sports with alot of buddies whos parents were doctors, the majority of them being cards. I NEVER seen them at any events, and that is Little league through collegiate sports.
Now obviously the $$$ is going to be there. I understand that its more dependant on the number of hours worked, or non-invasive vs invasive.

But, what can you do in cardiology tht allows you to only work 40-50 hours a week. Can you do that working in a hospital, or is it strictly private prac? I have done alot of research on CAD and CHF so I appreciate cards and what they do to the utmost, what Im wondering is, for those people that are wanting to see their kids grow up, or keep a strong marriage (whether your spouse is "understanding" or not, if your not home, your not home), but where and how can cards docs get the best of both worlds????

I am a non-traditional -"ish" MS applicant... I try to take some advice from alot of our family friends that are Dr.s but alot of them went through MS in the 70s-80s-90s and they claim that since they did it, res-fellows have much different expectations...
 
not that this should be important to anyone, but its important to realize the average private practice ophtho or ent doc makes like 240k. unless you do retina, your income for all intensive purposes caps out at <300. cards is where the cash is amongst these fields. EP docs making like 650k, interventionalists pulling in >600k. sky's the limit.

You will make much more money per unit time in ophtho.

And if you do LASIK, you can operate on a cash-only basis and charge whatever the market will bear. I know of a few ophthalmologists who basically have a LASIK assembly line and make well over $600 K

The question you have to ask yourself is how annoyed you would be with a whole internal medicine residency versus just the required 1st year of medicine before ophtho. If you like procedures and money and lifestyle are your most important objectives, don't do cardiology.

Ophtho in terms of lifestyle is similar to dentistry, except most ophtalmologists have to take at least some eye trauma call. When not on call, it's 9-5, no weekends, little or no stress.

If you like the eyes and find examining and operating on eyes interesting, then go for it.:thumbup:
 
If you want an easy life, do cardiac imaging where you read echos, cardiac CT, and cardiac MRI. Then you do general cardiology clinic or inpatient cards consults now and then if you wanna keep it up. Not too shabby a job.

Anyone who says cath is going the way of the CABG is incorrect. The cardiac cath for diagnostic purposes is NOT going away anytime soon if EVER. Perhaps if better image modalities come about this may be possible but it ain't on the horizon. Many cards guys just do diagnostic cath and not intervention.

Yes you will work hard but all this depends on your spouse/family. I grew up with my dad a med student and resident. He wasn't around as much as I like but I have a great relationship with him now. It's doable.

And if you think working cards is too hard, well go back doing internal medicine hospitalist work then...I mean let's not forget you ARE a BC internist!
 
Ophtalmology seems pretty cool to me, but it's too related with techonology, waaaaay more than cards, I know every doctor must keep himself actualized with new technologies in order to stay competitive in his/her field, but few specialities demand this constant upgrading as ophtalmology does, and I am not that much into tech so I would rather pick cards. I find it very interesting, it has cool and treatable pathologies, effective procedures, juicy earnings and it's still compatible with a life.
 
Cards also has a lot of technologies to keep up with as well. You have to enjoy medicine to a certain extent - more so the nitty gritty details that most people think aren't that big a deal.

Personally I don't give a crap about whatever "sign" or minutia, but I still like being an expert on the heart.
 
I'll go for Cardiology.
 
Cards also has a lot of technologies to keep up with as well. You have to enjoy medicine to a certain extent - more so the nitty gritty details that most people think aren't that big a deal.

Personally I don't give a crap about whatever "sign" or minutia, but I still like being an expert on the heart.

Well sure, a every doctor must keep up with new technologies despite his speciality, but you know in ophtalmology this is even more necesary
 
Well sure, a every doctor must keep up with new technologies despite his speciality, but you know in ophtalmology this is even more necesary

I have a question for you guys: What do you think optometrists taking over the ophhamology field.

best,
 
I have a question for you guys: What do you think optometrists taking over the ophhamology field.

best,

optometrists should never take over the opthomology field. they aren't medical doctors nor are they even similar to intelligence (on avg) or training. they have no idea how the human body works except the eye. they do glasses and contacts, while a small select percentage opt to do a residency to learn medical management on the boring diseases like glaucoma and/or macular degeneration. the ones who do residency are quite adequately prepared to help manage medical chronic diseases of the eye, but most (90% or so) don't know enough to do any satisfactory eye work.
 
If you want an easy life, do cardiac imaging where you read echos, cardiac CT, and cardiac MRI. Then you do general cardiology clinic or inpatient cards consults now and then if you wanna keep it up. Not too shabby a job.

Anyone who says cath is going the way of the CABG is incorrect. The cardiac cath for diagnostic purposes is NOT going away anytime soon if EVER. Perhaps if better image modalities come about this may be possible but it ain't on the horizon. Many cards guys just do diagnostic cath and not intervention.

Yes you will work hard but all this depends on your spouse/family. I grew up with my dad a med student and resident. He wasn't around as much as I like but I have a great relationship with him now. It's doable.

And if you think working cards is too hard, well go back doing internal medicine hospitalist work then...I mean let's not forget you ARE a BC internist!

Hmm...I don't know about diagnostic purposes 10 yrs down the line. CT-angiographic visualization of stenosis is getting better year after year. It's only a matter of time when the technology will be equivalent with routine angiography. Calcium scoring with CT is also able to show the risk of coronary artery events. The question is whether radiologists will read these images or will cards? I think it will be back and forth between the two groups depending on where you are (as it is with cardiac CT, MRI, MUGA right now). But regardless on who reads it, you can be sure that the reimbursements will be lowered because there's no more invasive procedures to be done and the reads will be split between the two groups so neither will have monopoly. And we all know that CTs are dirt cheap to read now, so you better be in a large group. :laugh:
 
Just a quick FYI....My fiancee was offered a Cardio fellowship and said he turned it down because of the lifestyle. Instead, he became a Gastro. Said he feltm that in this field, he could still have the satisfaction of saving lives and a better lifestyle.

The problem is, he still seems to work like a dog many times!
 
First of all, hours may be bad, but not THAT bad. What's the worst that will happen? You wake up at 5 am and come home around 6-7 pm. That's about 12 hours a day. You work 5 days a week - 60 hrs a week. You have one night a week of call - there's 30 hours. That easily makes it around 80-90 hours a week. But most physicians are in groups where they split call and they take turns rounding on the weekends.

Sure cardiologists are busy, but they're not busy to the point where you're an investment banker type of person. Don't worry about it too much.

i dont know about you guys. but if i am working 80-90 hrs a week in 10 yrs im gonna slit my wrists.
 
chicks dig cardiologists, not pansy eye docs

I just wanted to clarify some things...
1) We prefer the men of GI, GU, and GQ.
2) As a back up, we wouldn't mind Cardiology, ortho, rad once
3) I think cards is such a growing field...there are so many procedures added to the routine cardiac Cath. I personally chose IM over plastics just to pursue cards.
 
I just wanted to clarify some things...
1) We prefer the men of GI, GU, and GQ.
2) As a back up, we wouldn't mind Cardiology, ortho, rad once
3) I think cards is such a growing field...there are so many procedures added to the routine cardiac Cath. I personally chose IM over plastics just to pursue cards.

Talk about used and abused :(

What if it's a good time :confused: :hardy:
 
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