Career advice

[looking4advice1]

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Hello all,

I am writing here to seek some career advice and explore possible opportunities at the intersection of academic/clinical work.

I am currently a Ph.D. student in a Counseling Psychology program nearing the end of my program.

I really enjoy teaching and doing outreach work, and have been able to be the instructor of record on some courses and lecturer for others. I also enjoy researching. I will likely graduate from my program with around 10-12 total publications, around 4-5 being first-authored, and some in top-tier journals. I am proud of this work, but am realizing that it doesn’t “do it” enough for me to want a full-time academic career that’s research-heavy, especially at the expense of doing clinical work. However, I want to remain engaged in an academic setting and am hopeful that this track record will help me out in my situation. I also really enjoy clinical work, and have been fortunate to have had some great opportunities in different settings. I am sure that I want to do at least 2 full days of clinical work a week.

Beyond rare exceptions, I am generally hoping to not have to sacrifice location anymore for work beyond a 2-3 hour radius (I realize this is very limiting) so my assumption is that I will need to set up my clinical life first and then look for a university position in the area. Where I want to live is relatively saturated with universities, but I am still aware of the limitations I am imposing on the situation.

Ideally, I would work at a university for 2-3 days (at max) a week, with a 60% teaching, 30% research, 10% mentoring load. Then, I would return to clinical work for the remainder of my time.

I recognize that this post may come across as naïve, and I am definitely unsure as to how realistic this is, mostly around seeing if this academic job even exists and how secure they are and well they pay. I have heard of some universities only expecting faculty to be on campus for ~3 days a week (basically what appears to be a part-time tenure-track position with commensurate salary) but I’m not sure how widespread this is. I am also curious as to how many clients I would basically need to see in those 2-3 days to make a living and generally, how financially secure this idea sounds. I realize there is a lot of gray in my questions, but any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Icculus8]

I have heard of faculty taking 1 day out of the week reserved for clinical work. Thats not to say it can't happen, I just haven't personally heard of 2 days reserved off. I can't imagine that most universities will be very interested in hiring a part-time tenure track faculty member, but I would be pretty curious to learn about what that could look like from others who have seen that kind of arrangement. Probably a lot of the expense comes from having space, staff, and logistic support for a part time practice like that.

I have also heard of faculty who see patients within a training clinic setting for both service provision and training purposes for students to observe, which could be another way to engage in that practice.

There may also be some academic medical setting positions that reflect a similar type of work-clinical balance, though those may be more specific and the "teaching" is not of the same variety if you are looking to teach undergraduate courses.

I'm interested to hear what others say, I am curious about what all is out there myself.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

You seem to have a very good publishing record but you haven't mentioned your teaching experiences. I think your goals are reasonable but may be have a few misconceptions.

First, there are many different types of colleges with different teaching and research requirements. I was completely ignorant until I hit the job market. It seems you will want to focus on teaching schools with lower expectations for scholarly output. Teaching loads in these types of schools can range from 2/2 to 5/5, depending on the quality/prestige of the school. If you are able to land a job at a school that has a lower teaching requirement and you have can keep up with the research demands, this can allow you to add clinical time. HOWEVER, prepping new/newish classes can take up a lot of time and grading may as well depending on how you structure your classes.

Most people I know that balanced the clinical/tenure-track lifestyle did not start their clinical practices until a few years into teaching. Additionally, you could consider incorporating your clinical practice within your research or within a training program in your university. Don't think of it as purely separate from domains.

The biggest limitation is your geography. Tenure track jobs are competitive, especially if you want a very specific type. Additionally, you didn't mention your teaching record, if its weak you will need to beef it up for teaching schools. FWIW, most faculty that are interested in continuing clinical work are able to do it. However, it may not happen in your first year or two and it may start out as 1 day.

 

[deleted343839]

my assumption is that I will need to set up my clinical life first and then look for a university position in the area

Since you can practice just about anywhere but academic jobs are relatively scarce, it's best to think about this the other way around.

Ideally, I would work at a university for 2-3 days (at max) a week, with a 60% teaching, 30% research, 10% mentoring load. Then, I would return to clinical work for the remainder of my time.

You could find a teaching-oriented position at a community college or small liberal arts college that could give you roughly this split (though 30% research may be a stretch), but it may be difficult to find a true part-time arrangement. More likely you'd have a day (unusual) or half-day a week plus evenings and weekends to build your private practice, whereas the rest of your time would be spent lecturing, preparing, grading, holding office hours, attending committee meetings, mentoring, etc.

In general, it is realistic to think about doing one professional activity 70-80% of your time and choosing another activity to fill in most of the rest. No one I've ever known equally emphasized teaching, research, and clinical practice. It's a good idea at this stage in your training to network and talk to psychologists in a variety of positions to get a sense of how people actually structure their time and how their career paths evolved.

 

[looking4advice1]

You seem to have a very good publishing record but you haven't mentioned your teaching experiences. I think your goals are reasonable but may be have a few misconceptions.

First, there are many different types of colleges with different teaching and research requirements. I was completely ignorant until I hit the job market. It seems you will want to focus on teaching schools with lower expectations for scholarly output. Teaching loads in these types of schools can range from 2/2 to 5/5, depending on the quality/prestige of the school. If you are able to land a job at a school that has a lower teaching requirement and you have can keep up with the research demands, this can allow you to add clinical time. HOWEVER, prepping new/newish classes can take up a lot of time and grading may as well depending on how you structure your classes.

Most people I know that balanced the clinical/tenure-track lifestyle did not start their clinical practices until a few years into teaching. Additionally, you could consider incorporating your clinical practice within your research or within a training program in your university. Don't think of it as purely separate from domains.

The biggest limitation is your geography. Tenure track jobs are competitive, especially if you want a very specific type. Additionally, you didn't mention your teaching record, if its weak you will need to beef it up for teaching schools. FWIW, most faculty that are interested in continuing clinical work are able to do it. However, it may not happen in your first year or two and it may start out as 1 day.

I appreciate your response and that above from lcculus8 (not sure how to tag). Regarding teaching, I have been instructor of record for classes and also a lecturer for other courses. I have good reviews and will seek to continue teaching during the remainder of my time here. In the context of teaching/research work, it seems like regardless of primary focus, I will still be dedicating a lot of hours to that topic (which makes sense) within a TT job. Regarding the 2/2 split, am I wrong in thinking that there are both 1) adjunct jobs that only require that and nothing else and 2) TT jobs that have a 2/2 split within their requirements, in addition to research, service, etc?

It does seem possibly feasible, like you said, to pursue a TT job but try to integrate clinical work into that job. My fear though is that those hours would be minimal relative to the other research/teaching that the university expects and so 2 days a week of clinical work would be very hard to find (or, many years away from my hopeful start date).

This makes me wonder if really it makes most sense for me to primarily focus on clinical work, and then just seek an adjunct position. I would expect those positions to be teaching heavy, and therefore research might be more something that I do on the side as a passion project.

 

[deleted343839]

I appreciate your response and that above from lcculus8 (not sure how to tag). Regarding teaching, I have been instructor of record for classes and also a lecturer for other courses. I have good reviews and will seek to continue teaching during the remainder of my time here. In the context of teaching/research work, it seems like regardless of primary focus, I will still be dedicating a lot of hours to that topic (which makes sense) within a TT job. It does seem possibly feasible, like you said, to pursue a TT job but try to integrate clinical work into that job. My fear though is that those hours would be minimal relative to the other research/teaching that the university expects and so 2 days a week of clinical work would be very hard to find (or, many years away from my hopeful start date). This makes me wonder if really it makes most sense for me to primarily focus on clinical work, and then just seek an adjunct position. I would expect those positions to be teaching heavy, and therefore research might be more something that I do on the side as a passion project.

Adjuncting only makes sense if you are planning to spend the vast majority of your time doing something else (such as clinical work). The pay is terrible, and you will not be eligible for tenure, sabbatical, startup funds, and various other benefits of a TT position.

Most likely you'll be at your most marketable for academic jobs when you are fresh out of internship/postdoc. Going into practice and slowing down or discontinuing your scholarly output will more or less shut you out of consideration for most TT jobs. Remember, there is always an up-and-coming academic star in the cohort behind you. You can leave academia and go into practice much more easily than the other way around.

 

[looking4advice1]

Adjuncting only makes sense if you are planning to spend the vast majority of your time doing something else (such as clinical work). The pay is terrible, and you will not be eligible for tenure, sabbatical, startup funds, and various other benefits of a TT position.

Most likely you'll be at your most marketable for academic jobs when you are fresh out of internship/postdoc. Going into practice and slowing down or discontinuing your scholarly output will more or less shut you out of consideration for most TT jobs. Remember, there is always an up-and-coming academic star in the cohort behind you. You can leave academia and go into practice much more easily than the other way around.

Thanks for this and your earlier post. So, regarding adjuncting - is it reasonable to assume that I could get hired to teach 1 or 2 courses and would be expected to dedicate around one full day a week (or around 8-10 hours) per class? From an imagined work-life balanced, this would be great - but from a financial/job benefits perspective, it doesn't seem like that so much. Hypothetically, if I saw 15 clients a week (Mon-Wed), and then did adjunct work for 2 classes on Thu/Fri (or other expected job duties), broadly, could that both be financially viable and also seem to mesh well with a 40-45 hour workweek/nice work-life balance? I would need to consider paperworkIs there any way you could even estimate what that income range would look like if I were in private practice in a large city?

 

[looking4advice1]

Not sure what happened above, but I tried to write that I would have to consider paperwork, billing stuff, etc, also. It won't let me edit it fully.

 

[deleted343839]

So, regarding adjuncting - is it reasonable to assume that I could get hired to teach 1 or 2 courses and would be expected to dedicate around one full day a week (or around 8-10 hours) per class? From an imagined work-life balanced, this would be great - but from a financial/job benefits perspective, it doesn't seem like that so much.

As an adjunct, your expectations from the institution are pretty basic: prepare your lessons, show up for classes, submit grades on time, and have office hours. How much time that actually takes is a function of your experience and efficiency. Most institutions will pay a set fee per course ($3-5K per course seems like a typical range) but even an efficient instructor will find the hourly pay lacking. For a 2/2 adjunct teaching schedule that's at best around $20K per year, and likely no benefits.

There have been a few threads on adjunct gigs that you can find by doing a board search. TT jobs, while not necessarily super high paying, come with other benefits that can make up for the salary and allow some flexibility to supplement one's income.

 

[calimich]

I'm trying to create a position similar to what you describe. I'm in the 2nd year of a TT job, at an upper tier teaching-focused university where I teach 5 courses a year, spread over 2 14-week semesters. Although the university emphasizes teaching, we also have research and service expectations. During my first year I was (mostly) protected from service requirements so I could focus on designing courses and getting research started. We're encouraged to involve undergraduates with our research so a significant piece of year 1 was devoted to finding and mentoring a small group of students to become research assistants. They are great and we presented at a regional conference last year and are presenting at APA this year. Beginning year 2, I started a 3-year rotation on the IRB and one other minor committee. Now that I've begun to feel settled, I've turned my attention to launching a practice.

Currently, I'm on campus 4 days/week roughly 7-3. I teach MWF and expect to cut back my hours on the non-teaching day next semester. The plan is to work the practice full time over the summer, and then devote 1.5 days/week once next semester begins. I'm the only clinician in the dept, however some colleagues (who have tenure) and teach Tu/Th are only here 2 days/week.

Like what others have suggested, I chose to complete a clinical post-doc in order to be license eligible, and based on advice from others regarding the challenges of new faculty. Big picture, I considered the competitiveness of TT jobs and the "there's-always-a-star-behind-you" phenomenon when deciding to try for a TT job first and then begin practicing later. TBH, I was also slightly burnt out from full time clinical work. For more context, I'm also a counseling psych phd grad, had about 1/2 the publications you do, a bit more teaching experience, and studied for/passed the EPPP during my first summer. Similar to applying for grad school, I had my partner's support to engage in a nation-wide job search with few restrictions. However, we were mindful of work-life balance and did limit applications to spots I thought I'd "fit."

I echo others' advice in that you might want to consider focusing on landing the TT job first, getting settled, then adding clinical work in year 2+. Doing both is certainly possible, and will likely enhance your teaching & research.

This is an article I found interesting about licensure for academic psychologists: https://www.apa.org/careers/early-career/licensure-for-academics.pdf

feel free to pm me for more discussion

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thanks for this and your earlier post. So, regarding adjuncting - is it reasonable to assume that I could get hired to teach 1 or 2 courses and would be expected to dedicate around one full day a week (or around 8-10 hours) per class? From an imagined work-life balanced, this would be great - but from a financial/job benefits perspective, it doesn't seem like that so much.

You would need less than a day per week if you taught two classes. First time through will be a lot more work to figure out your syllabus, exams, etc; repeated courses will be much easier. Teaching 1-2 classes semester is doable, but the pay will suck as an adjunct.

Hypothetically, if I saw 15 clients a week (Mon-Wed), and then did adjunct work for 2 classes on Thu/Fri (or other expected job duties), broadly, could that both be financially viable and also seem to mesh well with a 40-45 hour workweek/nice work-life balance?

You could do that in 40hr-45hr/wk, but money-wise it may not work. It’d take time to build up a practice and paying for shared spare would take time to find a workable setup if you. You’d likely have to have a stable job first, build the practice on the side, and then add in teaching. At some point you’d need to jump ship to do more private practice to afford to teach 1-2 classes per semester. Making enough in private practice is much more of a business question than anything else.

 

[foreverbull]

I teach adjunct, and it's a full-time job with less than full-time pay. I'm also in private practice some afternoons, so I do basically what you want to do (without TT position or research). If I didn't have a spouse who had a full-time job, I'd be in trouble. It's not sustainable unless you have a lot of private clients to cover business expenses and add income, because the adjunct pay is ~$3-5K per course, but you may put in 40 hours per week for 3 classes in terms of teaching time, prep, office hours, answering student emails, etc. Your other two days could eventually fill with clients, but teaching 3 or 4 classes doesn't leave as much energy for clinical practice. Just something to consider if you plan to fill up with 10-12 clients and teach a full load as well.

If you do go the adjunct route, I'd suggest you plan to spend more time in private practice seeing clients (making money) and do the teaching on the side rather than the other way around, because it's not financially feasible to teach a lot of classes with low pay and hope to make a decent income with a limited, part-time private practice.

 

[Pragma]

Sorry I missed this thread earlier in the week. Just a general word of advice if you are thinking about $ - you'll make more money on an hourly basis doing clinical work on the side vs. teaching on the side, in most arrangements. Adjuncting can be an easy way to make money if you already have taught the course before, but it still isn't very good pay.

I went with a predominantly teaching/research position with a side clinical role. It has worked out very well in terms of professional balance and financial benefits. You learn to build in efficiencies when it comes to teaching and research, which reduces your overall amount of time you need to spend on those activities each week. Not so with clinical work - so you may as well get paid well by the hour for that type of work.

 

[Pragma]

Ideally, I would work at a university for 2-3 days (at max) a week, with a 60% teaching, 30% research, 10% mentoring load. Then, I would return to clinical work for the remainder of my time.

The distribution won't be static. You also forgot to consider service expectations, as others have mentioned.

I'd say during my first year in a TT position, it was 50% teaching, 30% research/mentoring, 20% service/administration

Several years later, I'd say it is 20% teaching, 50% research/mentoring, 30% service/administration. Mostly, I got a lot more efficient at teaching so that I can focus on other things. But you also get sucked into service and administration activities over time, inevitably, as a part of a TT career. Some of them are fun/useful and some of them are not.

Another consideration is a hospital/AMC faculty position, if you are okay with more training/medical education than traditional teaching. You can get a variety of splits/roles in this type of setting as well, but the focus will be more clinical and clinical training unless you have significant research buyout.