Careful with Mayo Psych

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psychresi

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I recently interviewed at Mayo, here's what I can say I noticed:

1. Residents don't seem to be that happy (except for the ones who are getting a Visa)
2. Residents in different years are leaving the program.
3. Many, if not most, of the residents are foreign. They also have some DO's, not MDs (including the chief resident!)
4. Most residents are married, many with young children.
5. The program director was a super nice guy, except I just found out he QUITTED!!!
6. It is true that call is only until 12am on the first two years, but then on third and fourth year, when things are supposed to get easier, you do the whole night!
7. Mostly a biological program, not too much psychotherapy here.
8. Didn't hear too much complains about living in Rochester, they try to tell you that "the city is only about 1 1/2 hours away".....that is of course when there is no snow on the road, which is pretty rare in Rochester!

On the upside, if you're into big names in your diploma, "Mayo Clinic" always looks good.

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3. Many, if not most, of the residents are foreign. They also have some DO's, not MDs (including the chief resident!)

4. Most residents are married, many with young children.

5. The program director was a super nice guy, except I just found out he QUITTED!!!

I might be interpreting your post wrong, so if I am, I apologize and please correct me.

You start the post as if its a type of warning against the Mayo program then cite a list of things you noticed with the program that you seem to imply are a problem. (again I may be interpreting you incorrectly)

But if I am correct...
Are foreign residents a problem? The President of the American Psychiatric Association (Pedro Ruiz, M.D.) is a foreigner & graduated from a foreign medschool and considered one of the best psychiatrists of our time. If I am interpreting your post correctly, would you hold Dr. Ruiz's foreigner background against him?

Are DOs worse? Some of the best docs I know have DOs (and I got an MD). Does having a DO somehow make a statement that someone should not be a chief resident? You seem to express some disbelief evidenced by the exclamation point in your post.

Why would married with children residents be a problem?

The program director quitting might not be for bad reasons. He might have been offered a better job, might have just wanted to retire, etc.

I do though think that residents leaving the program before the program's finished does signal something is going on, but again it doesn't mean its bad. If a resident leaves a program its usually because of something drastic because its next to impossible to get into another program, let alone one with the name on par with the Mayo. However they could be leaving because they were kicked out, which doesn't signal the program is bad, but has some standards. A resident getting kicked out either means the resident wasn't doing their work, or the program is going overboard in disciplinary action.

You might be very right to point out the Mayo's program, but some of the reasons you cite IMHO are not at all reasons to be wary of a program.

Again, I may have misinterpreted you. If I did, please correct me.
 
I am a Mayo medical student currently interviewing for psychiatry residency and would be happy to answer questions regarding Mayo's program. To respond to the initial post, the Mayo Clinic has traditionally been very FMG and DO friendly (in most specialties, not just psychiatry). That said, they are also quite selective about the quality of residents regardless of nationality. In the psychiatry program, there are actually few FMGs per year...usually 1 (this year's intern class has 2 residents from Puerto Rico, but that still makes them American medical graduates).

The program typically has 0-1 osteopaths per year; as seen by the fact that one of them is a chief (the other chief is an MD-PhD, for what it is worth), they do well in residency and often add a unique perspective in the midst of allopathic training.

It is true that residents have left the program in the past. The ones that I know who transferred were from California, liked the residency program well enough, but hated the cold weather and the less urban atmosphere. One transferred to UCLA-NPI; the other went to another CA program. I only know of one other person who left (also from the west coast), but did so after struggling in the residency for a few years...I am not sure what she is doing now. I would agree that residents leaving a program en masse is concerning. I am not sure what to make of residents who leave for geographical reasons (did they not notice it was twenty below zero with a conspicuous lacking of palm trees when they interviewed?).

The program director is leaving his post as training director but remaining at Mayo. He had been director for 7 years (twice the average length for a training director per the letter that was sent via ERAS to applicants). He is a great person and will be around for mentoring, as far as I know. There are several other interesting new-er faculty members that may replace him.

Minneapolis takes me 1 hour to drive from my house in Rochester to the midst of the downtown area or U-MN campus. There is no traffic EVER so it is easy to catch up on phone calls, etc., while driving through the cornfields. I am currently rotating in Evanston, IL, and it takes me at least an hour to even get to downtown Chicago, so it is all pretty relative. Most of my friends who are Mayo residents go to Minneapolis a few times per month so there is always someone to go with and new places to explore. We are able to drive there in an hour year-round. Snow happens in Minnesota, but Rochester gets fairly little snow (1-2 snowings per season typically, nothing close to what Denver or the Great Lakes get), but people can and do drive even when there is snow.

Rochester is a small-ish town but there are 85,000-90,000 people, so it has the essentials...good independent co-op with organic foods, decent Mexican/Italian/Indian/Thai restaurants, as well as a few upscale American/French places. There are decent gyms, movie theatres, grocery stores, shopping mall. It is safe (my wallet has been returned to me a few times after losing it with all money etc. in it). It takes five minutes to drive anywhere in town. It is cold (January is often hovering around zero, except this year, when it has rarely been below freezing), but summer is often in the 80s and 90s (June-Sept). It is cheap...most residents own homes (typical range is $100,000-170,000 for a large condo or house...I pay $700 mortgage for a 5 bedroom house). There is an International Film Festival, Gay Pride Festival, Rochester Fest, etc., for random mid-year entertainment. It is fairly white (Caucasian) but with growing Somali and Hmong immigrant populations and a large international patient and physician base. The city suffers by not having a four year university but there are a few decent independent theaters and most Broadway shows do one performance locally on their way to or from Minneapolis. The area is flat...there is ok hiking 1/2 hour away, as well as kayaking. But mountains and ocean are out of the question.

Residents have NO call their fourth year of residency. It is true that they take overnight call only during year 3, but they have organized a night float system so they are on call for one week of nights and off for the entire next day without clinical duties AT ALL during their call week. This weekly schedule rotates every 7 weeks (so you are on call one week every 2 months). Some people love it since they feel that they know the system much better as third years; some don't love it but find the lumped calls much more tolerable than q7 scheduling. For years 1 and 2, there are several call-free months (1/4 to 1/3 of each year is completely call-free).

Most residents I know are happy. They have the typical gripes of residents but the program is fairly responsive to change and I have not met anyone who was outwardly miserable or wished that they were training elsewhere.

Faculty are the highlight of the program...mentoring runs deep in a wide variety of areas within psychiatry. Research is prevalent and residents go to conferences that they are presenting at for free (and one free conference for attendance only). International rotations are funded by Mayo, as are rotations at Mayo Jacksonville or Scottsdale (especially nice when scheduled for the winter months). There is a great deal of flexibility first and second year to do peds, peds neuro, and more/less child/adolescent psych or acute psych (psychosis) if desired (everyone I know that has requested specific variations has been accomodated).

The chairperson is very biologically oriented and a strong figure in child psych nationally. He has bolstered the psychogenomics program but the residency is in no way biologically slanted. Most psychiatrists I know there do clinical research and are very solid supervisors for psychotherapy (especially psychodynamically oriented therapy and DBT). Clinical psychologists in the program provide additional supervision if desired and have strengths in CBT, IPT, mindfulness-based therapy. A few residents each year take classes at the Minnesota Psychoanalytic Institute.

Things that some people do not like about Mayo:
--formality....in lieu of white coats, most people wear suits. That said, most psychiatry residents get away with wearing a bit more casual attire.
--cold weather in the winter
--call during the third year of residency (please see note above)
--the town not being large enough
--the more conservative environment of the Mayo Clinic. But as the Clinic offers same sex partner benefits (health, health club, dental, vision, etc.) and democrats swept the recent local/state elections, it isn't exactly the worst out there.
--no in-house moonlighting. About half of the residents moonlight in years 3 and 4, but sites can be somewhat limited and require a 30-60 minute drive.

Things some people especially like about Mayo:
--solid didactics and mentoring
--preference regarding supervisors
--great benefits included with being at Mayo, especially reimbursed conference trips, health club, international rotation, free parking, well-loaded meal card for call meals, computer/cell phone/clothing movie theater corporate discounts, medical license funded, etc.
--flexibility with exposure to peds/child psych
--beautiful stand-alone psychiatry hospital with underground connection to the rest of the hospital system
--strong consult-liason psych due to a huge tertiary care setting (including some very odd zebras given the uber-specialization of the medical and surgical departments at Mayo)
--fairly wide variety of research opportunities for residents
--ease of living in Rochester (some find it boring, some find it a relief after dealing with urban commutes previously)...along with low cost of living, friendliness of staff and neighbors, safety of area, etc.
--fellowships in most areas of psych (psychosomatics, child, addictions, sleep)
--kindness and accessability of faculty, many of whom are very accomplished (not only in psych but other specialties as well)

I would definitely not have huge concerns staying at Mayo for residency. It is not without problems (I would worry about residency programs that are unable to identify issues that they are working on), but the training is solid, the resources are amazing, and the department appears to have been expanding for the better over the past few years. Please PM me if you have any specific questions.
 
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Just wanted to share my opinion about Mayo’s program. I also interviewed there and I must admit that I agree with the first person who wrote the post. Granted perhaps making a “list” of Mayo’s faults was not the best way of posting the message, many of the things written are indeed true. The resident director did indeed resign, whether he is staying in Mayo or not, and I wanted to clarify that this year only 8 people matched, out of 9 positions available. Also, of the different PGYs classes, about half are FMGs, not only 1 like someone said (this year's class has 4), which is no problem at all, but I just wanted to clarify. May I also say that out of the 8 residents that matched here, apparently 2 are changing to another program, although I do not have more details about this. In the dinner with the residents, I did notice that they seemed to be happy, but I also noticed that that they seemed a bit afraid to tell the truth and trying to hide many limitations on the program. I would have also liked to speak with any of the PGY-1s, but I did not get to meet any, and neither did another friend of mine who also interviewed here, which seems odd. Also, if you ask the residents of second and third year, you will also learn that Mayo was not their first choice. So, make your own conclusions, mine unfortunately was not good.
 
That's fine, and I see your point.

My own points were that the way the first poster presented it, it seemed that foriegners or DOs were supposed to be some type of negative barometer signal. Again, I know several who are excellent docs. In fact the worst resident my program ever had was an American grad--and no that doesn't mean that American grads are bad.

I too would've gotten the impression from what you've told me. Any program will always to your face say the program is good OVER THE TABLE. Its the UNDER THE TABLE data that is the real data you want. Anytime I detected a resident saying the program was good, but seemed like they were afraid to tell the truth--that's a big red flag.
 
Hello all, I interviewed at Mayo and would like to share my experience.

I was looking for a list of where/what resients have gone into so I emailed the chief res and she said that she and the other chief were both offered positions at MGH. She decided to stay at Mayo for C/L and he is going to NIMH.

I guess the perceived problems of what was listed in the original post may not really really be true. I feel if MGH is offering, then the program most likely is being respected all over.

Mayo recently recruited MGH psych faculty. One of them gave us a tour.

I'm scared of a few things: why they didnt fill last year (does that mean anything?), why arent more AMG applying there? compared to MGH, Columbia... the programs are almost 100% AMG but Mayo had more IMGs than AMGs. I wasnt aware that some people had left.
 
Many, if not most, of the residents are foreign. They also have some DO's, not MDs (including the chief resident!)quote]

Wow and I get hammered for talking about FMGs and DO's-here goes the same battle over again:laugh:
 
Wow and I get hammered for talking about FMGs and DO's-here goes the same battle over again:laugh:

The difference is that this thread and all the others are weeks old. Why keep bringing up this stuff?

There's a wonderful system in place to deal with this. It's called the match.
 
Don't you think planning out the next couple of years of your life and the direction of your career warrants some elucidation on confusing issues?

Some of this stuff doesn't make sense and I am hoping that I may get some clarification.

I think most of us would like to know as much as we can BEFORE the match.

I apologize for repeating a topic. I am sorrry sorry that you had to waste 30 secs of your life reading it. Now, tell me why did you spend time writing a reply to my message instead of just ignoring it.

I guess I'll have to go back to not checking this site anymore because of the unhelpful and frankly rude posts.
 
Don't you think planning out the next couple of years of your life and the direction of your career warrants some elucidation on confusing issues?

Some of this stuff doesn't make sense and I am hoping that I may get some clarification.

I think most of us would like to know as much as we can BEFORE the match.

I apologize for repeating a topic. I am sorrry sorry that you had to waste 30 secs of your life reading it. Now, tell me why did you spend time writing a reply to my message instead of just ignoring it.

I guess I'll have to go back to not checking this site anymore because of the unhelpful and frankly rude posts.

My post was directed at Chinychin, who incessantly seems to want to start a fight.

Although, your prejudices seem to be right in line with his. I think that is pretty amazing for someone who is interviewing at all these top programs. Did you happen to notice duneclimber's post above?

Regarding Mayo, I interviewed there as well.

I think that their program, though quality (especially in C/L) is simply not everyone's cup of tea, for many of the reasons listed in duneclimber's post. That and their location probably makes them less attractive: Rochester is not Boston or New York City by a long shot. Also, they seem to have fewer hangups about interviewing well qualified IMGs than other top programs.
 
Considering this post is likely very outdated. Anyone know anything about the quality of Mayo’s child Psychiatry Fellowship Program?
 
I might be interpreting your post wrong, so if I am, I apologize and please correct me.

You start the post as if its a type of warning against the Mayo program then cite a list of things you noticed with the program that you seem to imply are a problem. (again I may be interpreting you incorrectly)

But if I am correct...
Are foreign residents a problem? The President of the American Psychiatric Association (Pedro Ruiz, M.D.) is a foreigner & graduated from a foreign medschool and considered one of the best psychiatrists of our time. If I am interpreting your post correctly, would you hold Dr. Ruiz's foreigner background against him?

Are DOs worse? Some of the best docs I know have DOs (and I got an MD). Does having a DO somehow make a statement that someone should not be a chief resident? You seem to express some disbelief evidenced by the exclamation point in your post.

Why would married with children residents be a problem?

The program director quitting might not be for bad reasons. He might have been offered a better job, might have just wanted to retire, etc.

I do though think that residents leaving the program before the program's finished does signal something is going on, but again it doesn't mean its bad. If a resident leaves a program its usually because of something drastic because its next to impossible to get into another program, let alone one with the name on par with the Mayo. However they could be leaving because they were kicked out, which doesn't signal the program is bad, but has some standards. A resident getting kicked out either means the resident wasn't doing their work, or the program is going overboard in disciplinary action.

You might be very right to point out the Mayo's program, but some of the reasons you cite IMHO are not at all reasons to be wary of a program.

Again, I may have misinterpreted you. If I did, please correct me.

Pedro isn’t president of the APA
 
I think I just realized how long Whopper has been around.

@whopper , when do we get to start calling you one of the dinosaurs?
He's got 5 years on me, so hopefully more than 10. They already call me "Old Guard" in the psych forums. (I'm still in my 30's). Don't tell anyone.
 
That person's handle is also Ludwig which doesn't bode well because it's a pretty terrible Mario kart character and that's what really matters here.
 
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