Caribbean Med School ...Why not?

[zed350]

Ok..I know there are lot of threads like this on SDN but i just wanted to get your guys opinions on "My" situation.

I am a Non-Trad, Mech Engineer (Foreign Undergraduate). Post Grad at a Top 10 US Research Univ.Taking Pre-reqs at an undergraduate Institution(Almost done) with GPA upwards of 3.9 throughout my educational career.

Just came back from my undergraduate Physics class and bored out of my ass as I have to sit in there and study stuff that i have studied for all my life.(I have to retake Physics undergraduate class as I completed mine overseas). It just got me thinking that why should I be wasting 2 more years of my life to get into a US Med School when I can basically start Med School in Caribbean as soon as Jan(lesser reqs as compared to US med schools). What makes me think seriously about the Caribbean med school option is when I start drawing parallel's with my prior experience when i was moving back to states. Employers did not look at my foreign undergraduate degree with that much of enthusiasm. After taking GRE, and totally rocking it, I got into Grad school of my choice and after graduation, I was working with graduates from Harvard,MIT, shoulder to shoulder in a big R&D corporation.

As I understand,in the process of getting residencies for graduates from Caribbean schools, USMLE scores play a BIG factor along with your Performance in M3 & M4 (Which most people complete in US, alongwith grads from US med schools). So why not Caribbean ?..I mean even if you go to US med school you have to do good in USMLE and do a good job in M3 & M4 to get the residency of your choice. This makes me feel that running after US MD is more on the lines of Premed thinking where you are just following the person in front of you.I a mean most of us Post-Baccs know that after proving yourself at standardized tests and similar working conditions it does not matter where you went school t😵nly thing that carries you forward is your motivation to do well in your career and life.

So, why not Caribbean..? especially when you consider the fact that saving ~2 years is like saving ~2 years of Earning.

I am sure there would be a lot more people on this forum with more informed opinions about this topic.I would love to hear back from you guys as i sit here today and wonder..hmm.. Carribean Schools...why not?

 

[146233]

You make some excellent points, and yes -- Caribbean medical education works out very well for many people each year. In fact, Ross, St. Matthew and St. George all have some impressive match lists. The perception that Caribbean medical graduates have such difficulty landing residencies probably stems from a couple places -- some graduates apply to top residencies in very competitive specialties (CT surgery, Ortho, etc.) and when they don't match, that brings numbers down. Additionally, there are still a health number of PD's out there who see the foreign medical school on your ERAS application and cringe. Those types may not even be inclined to give you an interview.

The fact remains, however, that medical education el Caribe is specifically geared towards succeeding on the USMLE and the clinical years will really be what you make of them. As such, lots of people each year match into US residencies of their choice in the fields they want at well-known institutions. If you aren't concerned about spending four years in a foreign country -- some with fewer resources than the mainland -- and make sure your school teaches courses in English, then go for it. Do us proud and come back to dispel the rumors that a Caribbean MD is a death sentence for the Match! Good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok..I know there are lot of threads like this on SDN but i just wanted to get your guys opinions on "My" situation.

I am a Non-Trad, Mech Engineer (Foreign Undergraduate). Post Grad at a Top 10 US Research Univ.Taking Pre-reqs at an undergraduate Institution(Almost done) with GPA upwards of 3.9 throughout my educational career.

Just came back from my undergraduate Physics class and bored out of my ass as I have to sit in there and study stuff that i have studied for all my life.(I have to retake Physics undergraduate class as I completed mine overseas). It just got me thinking that why should I be wasting 2 more years of my life to get into a US Med School when I can basically start Med School in Caribbean as soon as Jan(lesser reqs as compared to US med schools). What makes me think seriously about the Caribbean med school option is when I start drawing parallel's with my prior experience when i was moving back to states. Employers did not look at my foreign undergraduate degree with that much of enthusiasm. After taking GRE, and totally rocking it, I got into Grad school of my choice and after graduation, I was working with graduates from Harvard,MIT, shoulder to shoulder in a big R&D corporation.

As I understand,in the process of getting residencies for graduates from Caribbean schools, USMLE scores play a BIG factor along with your Performance in M3 & M4 (Which most people complete in US, alongwith grads from US med schools). So why not Caribbean ?..I mean even if you go to US med school you have to do good in USMLE and do a good job in M3 & M4 to get the residency of your choice. This makes me feel that running after US MD is more on the lines of Premed thinking where you are just following the person in front of you.I a mean most of us Post-Baccs know that after proving yourself at standardized tests and similar working conditions it does not matter where you went school t😵nly thing that carries you forward is your motivation to do well in your career and life.

So, why not Caribbean..? especially when you consider the fact that saving ~2 years is like saving ~2 years of Earning.

I am sure there would be a lot more people on this forum with more informed opinions about this topic.I would love to hear back from you guys as i sit here today and wonder..hmm.. Carribean Schools...why not?

Sure you can go that route and try to beat the odds, but why intentionally set the odds against yourself? If you look at the matching stats you will see that in 2007 something like 94% of the 15,000+ US allo students got a high choice match out of the 21,845 first-year residency positions available, so that accounts for most of the competitive slots, and doesn't exactly bode well for having as many choices coming from other routes. You won't likely know what you want to go into until you do a few rotations, but you can certainly close doors on career options by going offshore. Also you can't overlook the high attrition seen at many caribbean schools. This is not a race, and this field does not reward shortcuts that well. You are going to be studying and taking tests for the rest of your life in medicine, so if you are in a rush to end the studying phase of your career, you are looking at the wrong field.

Caribbean schools are good "second chance" schools if you have exhausted other options (eg thanks to inability to get the grades, test scores necessary). My hat is off to someone who uses them as a second chance and does really well. However they aren't the best idea if you aren't in that "need a second chance" category.

 

[Despina]

I have posted on this before, but my ex-boyfriend (still good friend) went to St. George, and I have had the fortune to hang out with several of his classmates. Most of them did really well on their Steps and all just started their residencies (I know one of his friends matched in Manhattan and one in California). Two of his friends scored in the 95 percentile on Steps 1 and 2. The curriculum is all the same. In fact my ex purchased all his books at the UCSD bookstore because they use the exact same books. The professors are great too. In fact, you attract many quality professors because they like living down in the Caribbean.

From what I've heard St. George students are respected on the wards. Because most of them didn't get into US Allo schools they realize they have to prove their worth up in the US, so they work hard, and tend to be well respected by the docs during their 3 and 4th years. Caribbean students WANT IT BAD! My ex has countless stories telling how he found himself helping SUNY Downstate students, rather than the other way around.

The only time I would recommend against the Caribbean is if you want to go into academic medicine or be the head of something somewhere (or go into Dermatology). But if you just want to practice good old clinical medicine than the Caribbean is fine.

People also have this misconception that schools like St. George and Ross are just filled with a bunch of 2.5 GPA, 25 MCAT slackers, when the fact of the matter is if you opened many of the students records you might ask yourself, "Why the heck didn't these people get into a U.S. Allo school," because of a lot of their stats looks just like everyone else's on this forum.

The downside to the Caribbean schools is the administration--which for St. George is located in New York (St. George is considered the best out of the Caribbean schools). It's impossible to meet with the Dean and he doesn't give his email out to the students. Everyone I know who has gone there absolutely hates the administration (not the faculty, just the administration...). And the school is very expensive. Most of the schools down there are FOR PROFIT, so they will rob you blind. I think tuition alone is close to 50K.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I agree with most of your points. However, if you graduate from ANY U.S. medical school, you hit the ground running. From a foreign school, you definitely are closing some doors and there is no getting away from that. If you become interested in a competitive residency and/or a competitive, academic program, it will become problematic. It sounds like you are close to getting into a program stateside. The study of medicine is all about delayed gratification. Only you can decide on how patient you want to be and how much you're willing to gamble on your future by taking otherwise unnecessary shortcuts. Good luck!

 

[elanonimo]

Look Ted, I'll get straigh to it. Do you really want reasons of "Why" or "why not" go to a school of your liking? (Don't answer, apparently so). I'll tell you this: As you may know, life is what you make of it, depending on the tools at your disposal. Personally, I'll be enrolled as a Pre-Med in the Dominican Republic this up-coming September. Is it the best school in the area? Will the education that I recieve be worth something in the States? Can I afford this? Can I really do this? Do I want to do this? These were the questions that I asked myself before picking-up my studies after leaving the military. Look, people go off-shore to study for various reasons, but the most common are "$$$ Factor" and "Time Factor". A lot of people don't have enough "$$$", cause we all know how much this adds up when you got mouths to feed, or "Time" to pursue an MD degree the traditional way. Let's get real, being in your late 20s or early 30s is not really an advantage to compete against today's generation of students. If you are starting to pursue to get a BS in 4 years now to then get into a Pre-Med school 4 years down the line, the race is much steeper. I probably haven't answered the primary question of the blog, but, I'll tell you this: If you decide to come down to the Caribbean to study, make your one-and-only priority the USMLE and dismiss what anybody else has to say. Passing the 3 Steps is more important than anything. I know that we must look ahead and plan for good results but if you come here with dreams of practicing Medicine in the States your sole purpose is to pass the 3 Steps the first time with flying colors (I can't stress this enough). After that, well there are no guarantees... What I'm trying to say is that you just have to be in the right place at the right time. And that Ted, is the bottom line.

Don't worry about the competition of specialties or residencies, for all of this changes with the passing of time. And it's going to take you 5 years (give or take) before you join a Med School for your specialty stateside. There, I said what I had to say. Personally I don't care where you go study, but answer me this... Do you think that based on where you study is going to be the deciding factor as to where you want to go in life?

 

[Nasrudin]

.

Don't worry about the competition of specialties or residencies, for all of this changes with the passing of time. And it's going to take you 5 years (give or take) before you join a Med School for your specialty stateside. There, I said what I had to say. Personally I don't care where you go study, but answer me this... Do you think that based on where you study is going to be the deciding factor as to where you want to go in life?

This is precisely the reason to be concerned. There are no garantees that the continued policies will exist that allow foreign grads to come stateside to practice. The only thing that forbodes well for this continued policy is that it is nearly impossible to fill certain residency spots with U.S. grads--read rural Apalacia or malignant inner city programs.

Its a very personal choice. I've seen excellent resident physicians working in California from Ross and have talked to them at length about their choice. I am not at all critical of the path--especially since it seems the OP seems to have the academic chops to be at the top of the step scoring range--but it must be part of the discussion that they do encounter difficulties and that they are subject to the remote but possible policy changes that might occur between the time they embark to the time they come back for clerkships or residency.

 

[J ROD]

Simply put.

You will be at a disadvantage.

In terms of residency, prestige, loans, etc. etc.

Only use as a last resort. This is a lifelong decision and will affect your career as long as you are in practice. The field is hard enough without purposely putting yourself in less than perfect conditions.

Personally, I would rather do Caribbean MD than a DO even though DOs have better chances. I do not want to explain what a DO is and patients rarely ask where did you go to MD school.

Lastly, the degree is only a piece of paper and the knowledge you gained can show its true worth. Basically, you make the physician not the degree.

Stay the course!!! and be patient!!!!🙂

 

[Law2Doc]

This is precisely the reason to be concerned. There are no garantees that the continued policies will exist that allow foreign grads to come stateside to practice.

In fact, if you do a google search of the discourse regarding the recent increase in US allo school class sizes, you will see that there is some organizational support for the notion that US schools should fill US needs, rather than have students go offshore to caribbean schools. Suffice it to say that thus far US allo student population has increased and is planned to continue to increase over the next decade and thus far there has been no comparable increase in residency slots. Expect a squeeze for slots in the future. This is all speculation but based on statements of folks fairly high up the totem pole.

 

[Shinken]

Personally, I would rather do Caribbean MD than a DO even though DOs have better chances. I do not want to explain what a DO is and patients rarely ask where did you go to MD school.

This is one of my all-time favorite misconceptions perpetuated by SDN.

I have yet to "have to explain" to anybody what a DO is. Really. Believe it or not. Not a single (yes, NOT A SINGLE) patient has ever asked me what a DO is.

Just an FYI. Carry on.

 

[J ROD]

I work in a hospital and have had to tell patients what a DO was.

Hell, I have even had to tell other employees what a DO was. Several nurses thought they were like a PA.

I guess it depends on where you are from.

 

[Lshapley]

In fact, if you do a google search of the discourse regarding the recent increase in US allo school class sizes, you will see that there is some organizational support for the notion that US schools should fill US needs, rather than have students go offshore to caribbean schools. Suffice it to say that thus far US allo student population has increased and is planned to continue to increase over the next decade and thus far there has been no comparable increase in residency slots. Expect a squeeze for slots in the future. This is all speculation but based on statements of folks fairly high up the totem pole.

I know it might seem unrelated, but did you hear about a news story in the UK? Seems some foreign doctors over there tried to blow the place up. Now, taking into account how reactionary the government has been with this "war on terror", would anybody be surprised if they made it even harder for foreign docs to get a residency and practice in the US? Apparently two of these docs tried to get a gig here, but didn't follow through.

Incidents like that one can be used to bolster the efforts L2D was referring to. Moral of the story? I would only do offshore as a last resort and certainly not with your academic record. It is too difficult and too potentially risky.

 

[Meatwad]

Plus, you just want to jump over to the Caribbean to avoid doing the premed classes here, right? So if you went to the Carib you would have foreign prereqs. This might affect licensure in some states (you'll have to contact each state you are interested in).

Now, obviously, if you are an IMG who has an undergraduate medical degree (MBBS, MB BCh, MD in certain European countries, etc.) you wouldn't have a licensure problem. However, since you are entering graduate level medicine, I'm assuming you could run into problems.There's a reason schools here won't admit you with foreign prereqs; I don't exactly know, but there must be one. And if they prevent you from entrance to school, it is logical to assume they could block you from licensure for the same reason.

Moral of the story: Finish up your prereqs, go US. If that doesn't work and you are sick of the process, then do the Caribbean. Cover all the bases first, though.

 

[Law2Doc]

Incidents like that one can be used to bolster the efforts L2D was referring to. Moral of the story?

Well, what I was talking about had less to do with overtly focusing on current foreign docs but more silently closing the door over time. Do a google search from the time of the enactment of this plan to increase the numbers of doctors in US allo schools over the next decade (2005?), and you will find statements which suggest how this plan will (by design) stem the use of caribbean schools as backups.

 

[Despina]

There are 34,000 spots for residency and only 17,000 spots for medical school meaning that 17,000 spots have to be filled by foreign graduates (and a couple hundred are left empty every year). I've read some estimates that it cost about 1 Billion (YES BILLION) to open up a medical school. Law2Doc, I really don't think adding 10-20 spots to every US medical school will solve this problem. Even opening up a few new medical schools will only bring up the total to 20,000 US Allo graduates. Yes, we are going to see the US tightening up after the recent events in England, but most of the people who come from Ross and St. George are U.S. Citizens! Everybody on this forum has high hopes for working in academic medicine. It's nice to dream, but once you enter medical school you start to realize that the competition is steep (10X the pre-med competition), and in reality we will all be working for big HMO's like Kaiser, and Scripps, and Sutter Health. So in unless the OP wants to go into academic medicine, he shouldn't have a problem finding work or being prejudiced against in the US.

I keep hearing quotes on this forum like, "Only 60% of international grads pass Step 1 and 2." This is misleading because this includes all foreign graduates--those who first language isn't English, or whose country's medical education is behind the U.S. The stats for SGU and Ross are much different.

I think if the OP wants to get on with his life, he should go for it...

 

[Law2Doc]

There are 34,000 spots for residency and only 17,000 spots for medical school meaning that 17,000 spots have to be filled by foreign graduates (and a couple hundred are left empty every year).

You lost me with your numbers. According to the AAMC, "This year, 27,944 applicants vied for one of the 21,845 first-year residency positions available; 15,206 of these applicants were U.S. medical school seniors." (http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2007/070315.htm ). As you noted, increasing each US med school 15-20 seats is another couple of thousand or so US seniors in a few years. Plus there are a few new US schools in the works. Seems to me that would result in a pretty tight squeeze on the offshore crowd. Not impossible, but there is a significant difference in being one of the 10,000 applicants competing for the 6000 spots not taken by US applicants versus, say, 3000 spots.

 

[MossPoh]

Also, keep in mind that a "spot" is kind of iffy. There are crappy residencies in this country. In addition, while many people get a spot it won't be in what they want. Just what we need, a bunch of bitter doctors half-assing their way through a residency because they are at the point they just want cash. Who cares if there are enough "spots" if we aren't outputting quality,dedicated doctors into this country. I'm not saying just foreign graduates are like this, but overall. If we could some how single out those primary care oriented doctors that LIKE underserved areas we would be golden. The fact is, most doctors don't want to wind up in a 10,000 person town 4 hours from the nearest quasi-city. I don't think the doctor shortage is as much of the issue as the allocation of those doctors. So great, we can fill the residency spots with a ton of people, churn out bitter, low quality doctors and have them flood to the cities and suburbs...sweetness.

 

[zed350]

Thanks a lot for your opinion Guys, lot of good arguments.Please keep your thoughts comming.I plan to collect everyone's thoughts in one post for future reference for our fellow Post-Baccs.I have already noted down several key points mentioned above.It would be really awesome if you guys find any kind of relevant stats to support your arguments as they really help people understand them better.

As far as the discussion goes so far, i believe i need to clarify that I am not thinking about caribbean as a shortcut or even an easier route. Hell, working at my last job would have been an easier route where I already had a 6-figure income and paid foreign trips. The reason i am thinking about Caribbean route is like someone mentioned above, us Post-Baccs do not have luxury of time and money like young guns have.Also,having gone through real life experience's, I believe most of us should be able to see and cut the BS out and focus on the real stuff that needs to be done to succeed in life. Lot of Post-Baccs i meet here have families,young kids or are simply a little too late to keep on wasting their time to play the game on Premed's playing field. Until, your goal is to make money and money alone in so called competitive specialities like ROAD (they are competitive just because they make more money and work less). I believe you have lot of options and Caribbean is just one of them.

Once again thanks a lot for your inputs they are really appreciated !!

 

[zed350]

You lost me with your numbers. According to the AAMC, "This year, 27,944 applicants vied for one of the 21,845 first-year residency positions available; 15,206 of these applicants were U.S. medical school seniors." (http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2007/070315.htm ). As you noted, increasing each US med school 15-20 seats is another couple of thousand or so US seniors in a few years. Plus there are a few new US schools in the works. Seems to me that would result in a pretty tight squeeze on the offshore crowd. Not impossible, but there is a significant difference in being one of the 10,000 applicants competing for the 6000 spots not taken by US applicants versus, say, 3000 spots.

Thanks for the Link Law2Doc, very informative.I found the following Stats from the link on that page ( http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2007/match2007charts.pdf ) to be very helpful, it shows that as of 2007-match there is NOT a clear-cut advantage for U.S. med school grads while getting matched to the programs they want.

Percent Matches by Rank Number (U.S. Senior Applicants)
1st Choice 58.6%
2nd Choice 15.7%
3rd Choice 9.5%
4th Choice 5.5%
>4th Choice 10.7%

Percent Matches by Rank Number (Non-U.S. Senior Applicants)

1st Choice 49.7%
2nd Choice 19.5%
3rd Choice 10.9%
4th Choice 7%
>4th Choice 12.9%

 

[Top Gun]

Here are my $.02 as a Caribbean grad:

With your GPA of 3.9 and provided that you can rock the MCAT, I think you should try for US schools first. You will have more doors open to you, particularly if you think you might want to do something like derm or plastics.
As a Caribbean grad, even if you do awesome on the USMLE, impress your attendings, and get great letters of recommendation, a US grad with the same stats will be chosen over you for a residency. And there are a few residency programs out there that will not take IMG's or FMG's.
That said, the Caribbean is a great option for those who tried to get into a US school, but did not succeed. The education at the top 4 Carib schools (SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba) is on par with that of US schools. And students who attend these schools often achieve very high USMLE scores. We are well prepared when we do clinical rotations in the US. Also, while most likely derm, plastics, or ortho will not be an option for you as a Caribbean grad, plenty of Caribbean grads match into the primary care specialties and even moderately competitive ones, like anesthesia, general surgery, or OB/GYN.
Basically, I think that as long as it is possible for you to get into a US school, try for that first. When you've applied at least twice and failed, then come to the Caribbean, and only if you're willing to work hard and do whatever it takes.

 

[Feli]

...And the school is very expensive. Most of the schools down there are FOR PROFIT, so they will rob you blind. I think tuition alone is close to 50K.

This is basically the bottom line unless you are independently wealthy.^

You really have to know what you are getting into. Caribbean might be (much) easier to get into, but you have to realize that tuition is often 2x or more what US schools charge. When you couple the Carib students' greater student loan debt, much greater attrition rate, and the fact that the average practicing IMG makes less than the average US grad, that's fairly significant.

I...People also have this misconception that schools like St. George and Ross are just filled with a bunch of 2.5 GPA, 25 MCAT slackers...

No, they aren't at graduation, but in the beginning, that's exactly what they are mostly composed of.

I'm surprised nobody touched on the attrition rates at Caribbean med schools. The "top 4" are probably considered in that status because they annually flunked out over half their incoming students within the first year to protect the school's USMLE pt1 scores. I'm sure some people go there, study hard, and do great on boards, but a lot of people get weeded out and come back after a year with nothing but a little white coat from the first day there, no degree, $60-80k in debt, and stories of what it was like to live in a third world country for a year. Ask any Carib student about the attrition rates and see what they tell you.

...In the OP situation, I'd definitely try US allo schools. Your gpa is great, and, if you tested well on GRE (infinitely easier than MCAT, but still a test), then you'll probably do well on MCAT.

 

[Buckeye4life]

I work in a hospital and have had to tell patients what a DO was.

Hell, I have even had to tell other employees what a DO was. Several nurses thought they were like a PA.

😱 A couple on-the-job trained employees and 1 year trained LPNs didn't know what a DO was? I have to educate patients occasionally? I'm quitting school.

 

[Meatwad]

it shows that as of 2007-match there is NOT a clear-cut advantage for U.S. med school grads while getting matched to the programs they want.

Percent Matches by Rank Number (U.S. Senior Applicants)
1st Choice 58.6%
2nd Choice 15.7%
3rd Choice 9.5%
4th Choice 5.5%
>4th Choice 10.7%

Percent Matches by Rank Number (Non-U.S. Senior Applicants)

1st Choice 49.7%
2nd Choice 19.5%
3rd Choice 10.9%
4th Choice 7%
>4th Choice 12.9%

I disagree with you here; follow my line of thought.

This does not mention what type of specialty grads are matching into, just what number of their preference list, right? So that 58% of US grads matching into their first choice is probably a very good mixture of competitive specialties as well as not-so-competitive specialties. However, since more US students than not are specializing these days, then we can glean that out of that 58%, there are a lot of them scooping up choice spots.

Now, let's assume you are a Caribbean student. Even with decent scores, does it make sense to apply for Derm? ENT? Probably not, especially if you don't have amazing scores and are a graduate from maybe one or two schools that have experience getting grads into competitive specialties (SGU/Ross). With that said, you will basically pull your head out of the clouds and settle for something interesting, but not necessarily your first choice. Sure, it's your first choice on paper, but would it really be your first choice if you could choose from any field? I'd argue no. Out of the 49% of Caribbean first-choice spots, most of them are internal medicine or family medicine, probably with a good smattering of peds in there. I think the first-choice percentage for the Caribbean just shows they are being more realistic with their choices. If all Caribbean grads put what they really want, all variables equal (no stigma, etc), I say the percentage would be well below 49%.

Moral of the story: statistics mislead, and don't take them to be a deciding or even major factor when making such a large decision.

 

[Meatwad]

This is basically the bottom line unless you are independently wealthy.^

You really have to know what you are getting into. Caribbean might be (much) easier to get into, but you have to realize that tuition is often 2x or more what US schools charge. When you couple the Carib students' greater student loan debt, much greater attrition rate, and the fact that the average practicing IMG makes less than the average US grad, that's fairly significant.

No, they aren't at graduation, but in the beginning, that's exactly what they are mostly composed of.

I'm surprised nobody touched on the attrition rates at Caribbean med schools. The "top 4" are probably considered in that status because they have flunked out over half their incoming students within the first year to protect the school's USMLE pt1 scores. I'm sure some people go there, study hard, and do great on boards, but a lot of people get weeded out and come back after a year with nothing but a little white coat from the first day there, no degree, and $60-80k in debt.

...In the OP situation, I'd definitely try US allo schools. Your gpa is great, and, if you tested well on GRE (infinitely easier than MCAT, but still a test), then you'll probably do well on MCAT.

That's incorrect. At least with the examples we are using, Ross and SGU. If you apply to either with a 2.5/25 these days, you will be wasting your application fee. Most matriculants have around a 3.3/27 roughly at SGU these days, due to increasing competition here in the US and Canada. Ross is most likely right beside them. Sure you can get into some Caribbean school with those stats, but they probably would not even be WHO recognized and therefore not what we are discussing as an option in this thread.

 

[Feli]

That's incorrect. At least with the examples we are using, Ross and SGU. If you apply to either with a 2.5/25 these days, you will be wasting your application fee. Most matriculants have around a 3.3/27 roughly at SGU these days, due to increasing competition here in the US and Canada. Ross is most likely right beside them. Sure you can get into some Caribbean school with those stats, but they probably would not even be WHO recognized and therefore not what we are discussing as an option in this thread.

A few people who've flunked out of my program were welcomed with open arms at "top 4" Caribbean schools for this year and the past few years. Will they graduate? Who knows, but they got in. I believe that they all went to Ross, but I don't really think SGU's standards can be that far off...

Ask any Carib school for their admissions averages... you'll either get BS numbers or "we don't keep those stats handy." At most of those schools, if you have a good credit score and took the MCAT, you're in. Fortunately, as I said, most of those lower end students won't graduate. But really, don't take my word for it... talk with some Carib students or ones who were dismissed and see what it's really like. If they're still students, it's in their best interest to make their school sound respectable, but the attritioin rates are sky high for a good reason...

Again, I'm not saying all Carib students are bad (some are great), but the admissions are fairly lax since they are for-profit institutions. You're trying to tell me the average matriculant to SGU (3.3, 27... right?) could've gotten into DO programs and stayed in the US but chose Carib? What is your source? SGU admissions department?

Graduate health programs are big decisons. There's nothing wrong with backup plans, but it's just important to get the facts and not jump into something.

 

[Top Gun]

You're trying to tell me the average matriculant to SGU (3.3, 27... right?) could've gotten into DO programs and stayed in the US but chose Carib? What is your source? SGU admissions department?

You'd be surprised. I actually got a PM from someone who was interested in applying to Caribbean schools even though he already had an acceptance to a DO school. He didn't want to have to explain what a DO was for the rest of his life, so he chose the Caribbean route. Also, recently, there was a thread in the Caribbean forum on which the OP decided to transfer from a DO school to a Caribbean one, because he really wanted the MD.

 

[Feli]

You'd be surprised. I actually got a PM from someone who was interested in applying to Caribbean schools even though he already had an acceptance to a DO school. He didn't want to have to explain what a DO was for the rest of his life, so he chose the Caribbean route. Also, recently, there was a thread in the Caribbean forum on which the OP decided to transfer from a DO school to a Caribbean one, because he really wanted the MD.

I'm sure Carib schools get some good applicants, but I really doubt the 3.3/27 is the average matriculant for any of those schools. Do you think it is? It may be the entrance stats of the average graduate at a top Carib school, but with as many students as they find willing to pay $40k+ per year, I just don't see them all having those stats (actually, roughly half would have stats higher than that if they are the mean values).

Out of curiousity, what was your Carib MD school's entering number of students, and how many of them graduated? Seriously.

I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm sure you worked hard and did well in med school. The simple fact that you passed steps, graduated, and got a residency tells me that. I just don't think this Carib attrition rate topic gets discussed enough despite the fact that pre-meds should really be thinking about these things. United Stated MD programs have 94% of people who are accepted graduate due to being so selective of who they accept on the front end (http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf), but Carib schools are nowhere near those entrance stats and have much higher attrition. Pre-meds mistakenly think that every acceptee will finish and that it's all about "getting in," but they need to realize that's only the case for American MD and DO programs. I know how it works because some of the podiatry schools are similar: lax admissions standards, high attrition rates... but most of the students who get through are pretty smart and well qualified - esp the ones who complete good residencies.

 

[awdc]

In general, as a recent Caribbean med school grad I would advise going for U.S. schools first. However, jumping into a Caribbean school might not be such a bad idea depending on your circumstances. Just make sure you know all about the hurdles you'll be facing as an IMG.

 

[Noeljan]

That's incorrect. At least with the examples we are using, Ross and SGU. If you apply to either with a 2.5/25 these days, you will be wasting your application fee. Most matriculants have around a 3.3/27 roughly at SGU these days, due to increasing competition here in the US and Canada. Ross is most likely right beside them. Sure you can get into some Caribbean school with those stats, but they probably would not even be WHO recognized and therefore not what we are discussing as an option in this thread.

I know someone who just got in ross with a 2.8 UG GPA and 24 MCAT. I actually think he is smart though, just didn't apply himself.

 

[Lamont]

a lot of this comes down to understanding what hurdles you will face later on. There is a TON of misinformation on this post, and I would generally disregard the majority of the post. This is the nature of SDN - people who have not been there/dont know acting like they do. I am not an expert on admissions, however it is my incredibly limited experience that says US Degree > Foreign Degree in the US. This does not mean you cant make it just fine, it just make take some extra work as an FMG. Will you be a good doctor? Your medical school training wont determine that - your work ethic and ability to grasp concepts in a clincial setting will have something to do with that. If you are willing to pick up and move to St. George (and deal with a fair amount of uncertainty and some prejudice) then have at it and good luck. If I were in your shoes, I would wait it out, but then again...im 22. You have been working for a while and probably would like to minimize your costs vs. your future gains, and I completely understand that (and dont blame you!). If after doing much research into the FMG lifestyle, the curriculum, clinical rotations and sites, match stats, and all that, you decide its the way to go then go! Also talk to lots of people who are doing/have done it to get a real idea - most of us dont know jack about it...the guy who was an actual FMG is definitely a good resource for you. I dont think you should rule out DO either, but thats your choice. Some people (especially one guy on this thread) have the bad impression of the degree, but within the discipline, the differences are pretty transparent. I, like patients, dont really care what letters are after my name, we really just care about the ones before it (Dr.). I think you will be just fine regardless of the route you choose, you seem to be plenty smart enough. Nail that Med School GPA, slaughter your boards, have good audition rotations/interview well and keep your fingers crossed. Good luck!

 

[Meatwad]

I know someone who just got in ross with a 2.8 UG GPA and 24 MCAT. I actually think he is smart though, just didn't apply himself.

I'd say your friend is an exception instead of a regularity.

As far as why would someone go Caribbean if they had acceptable DO stats? Ignorance. How many times have we seen "I'd rather go an MD than a DO," BS on this and other medical school forums? More times than I'd like to count. Naive premeds think their offshore degree will somehow give them an advantage because at least they will have MD after their name. This is widespred, and is the reason why a lot of Caribbean schools are getting more qualified applicants these days. That, and the Caribbean requires a lot less than a DO school. If you have a 3.0/28, you have a shot at a DO school; only if you have awesome ECs and LORs, though. If you have a 3.0/28, and no ECs and maybe an LOR from an intro biology prof, you'll definitely get in a few places. So although I'm saying the SGU matric. stats are not as low as one might think, they aren't necessarily the complete package a US osteopathic school would take.

 

[Noeljan]

I'd say your friend is an exception instead of a regularity.

As far as why would someone go Caribbean if they had acceptable DO stats? Ignorance. How many times have we seen "I'd rather go an MD than a DO," BS on this and other medical school forums? More times than I'd like to count. Naive premeds think their offshore degree will somehow give them an advantage because at least they will have MD after their name. This is widespred, and is the reason why a lot of Caribbean schools are getting more qualified applicants these days. That, and the Caribbean requires a lot less than a DO school. If you have a 3.0/28, you have a shot at a DO school; only if you have awesome ECs and LORs, though. If you have a 3.0/28, and no ECs and maybe an LOR from an intro biology prof, you'll definitely get in a few places. So although I'm saying the SGU matric. stats are not as low as one might think, they aren't necessarily the complete package a US osteopathic school would take.

I don't think he is such an exception, as far as stats go. I have another friend sho got in 2 years ago (ross) with a 2.5 and 22 mcat. With that said, I also have a good friend who goes to St George, and had a 27 mcat with a 3.6 gpa. I feel like the caribbean lets in whoever, but that the truly good students are the ones who make it through. I don't see a problem with them, but a weakness is they let in people with really low stats and people with decent stats. I think that is the reason for the higher failure rate.

 

[Meatwad]

Go to valuemd, seems there are plenty of kids telling their tales of woe because they couldn't get into SGU, Ross, Saba, or AUC. You friends either must have very good stories, or the kids getting rejected are sociopaths with no interviewing skills. Did your friends have a rough first couiple of years, paired with a high GPA trend the last couple of years? Could always play a role. I'd say someone with a 2.7 GPA every semester since freshman year with a major in Art History would probably find it difficult to get into SGU or Ross, barring something that really stands out on their app.

 

[TheGalvaniFrog]

Thanks for the Link Law2Doc, very informative.I found the following Stats from the link on that page ( http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2007/match2007charts.pdf ) to be very helpful, it shows that as of 2007-match there is NOT a clear-cut advantage for U.S. med school grads while getting matched to the programs they want.

Percent Matches by Rank Number (U.S. Senior Applicants)
1st Choice 58.6%
2nd Choice 15.7%
3rd Choice 9.5%
4th Choice 5.5%
>4th Choice 10.7%

Percent Matches by Rank Number (Non-U.S. Senior Applicants)

1st Choice 49.7%
2nd Choice 19.5%
3rd Choice 10.9%
4th Choice 7%
>4th Choice 12.9%

Keep in mind that their choices are dictated by which program offered them interviews. As a fourth year student, you're welcome to apply anywhere you want, but eventually when you list your top choices, you are limited by the programs that actually offered you interviews. It's my understanding that some programs, probably the more coveted ones, favors the graduates of US schools and therefore much more likely to offer interviews to US school students. So the pools of residency programs that US and non-US students are choosing from are probably somewhat different.

 

[Top Gun]

Out of curiousity, what was your Carib MD school's entering number of students, and how many of them graduated? Seriously.

I started in January 2002. At that time, I believe the number of entering students was about 230. I only really know of one or two people who actually dropped out. However, there were a lot of people who decelled. That means they dropped a couple of courses and completed them the next term. About 50 people decelled in the first term. Then it became 20 in the second term. And then about 40 people decelled in fourth term. And then there were students who decelled multiple times. Whether any of the people who decelled dropped out is uncertain. Also, you have the students who entered ahead of us decelling into coursework that my entering class was completing. So determining the number of students who entered in January 2002 and graduated in June 2006 is a little messy.
I do know this though. By June 2006, 450 students graduated. This included students from both the January and August classes because the January class usually receives a break between January and May after completion of second year. So the January and August classes generally end up graduating at the same time. The students who decelled in first term completed fewer courses per semester. Many of them ended up following the same timetable as the August class. So, in the end, many of the students who decelled in first term ended up graduating with the rest of us.
So basically, if you mean attrition as dropping out of med school altogether, I only know of a few who actually did. Most of the students who were having trouble simply decelled. And by taking fewer courses per semester, they actually did a lot better.

 

[Noeljan]

I started in January 2002. At that time, I believe the number of entering students was about 230. I only really know of one or two people who actually dropped out. However, there were a lot of people who decelled. That means they dropped a couple of courses and completed them the next term. About 50 people decelled in the first term. Then it became 20 in the second term. And then about 40 people decelled in fourth term. And then there were students who decelled multiple times. Whether any of the people who decelled dropped out is uncertain. Also, you have the students who entered ahead of us decelling into coursework that my entering class was completing. So determining the number of students who entered in January 2002 and graduated in June 2006 is a little messy.
I do know this though. By June 2006, 450 students graduated. This included students from both the January and August classes because the January class usually receives a break between January and May after completion of second year. So the January and August classes generally end up graduating at the same time. The students who decelled in first term completed fewer courses per semester. Many of them ended up following the same timetable as the August class. So, in the end, many of the students who decelled in first term ended up graduating with the rest of us.
So basically, if you mean attrition as dropping out of med school altogether, I only know of a few who actually did. Most of the students who were having trouble simply decelled. And by taking fewer courses per semester, they actually did a lot better.

not to be mean, but wouldn't anyone taking fewer courses per semester do a lot better?

 

[Top Gun]

not to be mean, but wouldn't anyone taking fewer courses per semester do a lot better?

If they're a normal med student, yes. Of course, you occasionally get the downright lazy as$ who somehow, even after decelling, manages to screw up.

 

[Feli]

not to be mean, but wouldn't anyone taking fewer courses per semester do a lot better?

Almost always in a US school.^ Decellerated students realize they screwed up and will have that on their transcript. They will work harder, which, coupled with a lighter courseload, should mean better grades. However, some who don't have the talent or don't work hard will still flunk out even with a lighter load.

You need to be aware that Carib decel is also often used as a way for the school to collect another semester or two's tuition $$$ before they dismiss a struggling student. If they flat out dismissed a student after one semester, that's not as much $ as if the student lasted 3 semesters. Even if a decel student graduates, the school makes significantly more tuition $ off of them. The bad students generally won't make it to the USMLE pt1 because the school can't risk it due to an already low board pass rate. Some of the Ross students I ran into last summer in my library who were studying for boards told me that their incoming '08 class began with around 400 and had around 175 left (including some decels who had been picked up) two years later who were getting their authorization letter from the school to take pt1. That is very similar to TopGun's %s stated above... only about half of his incoming class made it to pt1 on schedule.

In terms of whether a decel student's easier courseload and slightly higher gpa will help them at match, it's not like decel students' transcripts don't show that they failed or withdrew from classes and got put on the extended program. Higher GPA from ligher load or not, those people will have to explain during residency interviews why it took them 5 or 6 or more years to do what most people did in 4 years (on top of explaining why they didn't go to a US med school if they are a FMG).

 

[Top Gun]

Almost always in a US school.^ Decellerated students realize they screwed up and will have that on their transcript. They will work harder, which, coupled with a lighter courseload, should mean better grades. However, some who don't have the talent or don't work hard will still flunk out even with a lighter load.

You need to be aware that Carib decel is also often used as a way for the school to collect another semester or two's tuition $$$ before they dismiss a struggling student. If they flat out dismissed a student after one semester, that's not as much $ as if the student lasted 3 semesters. Even if a decel student graduates, the school makes significantly more tuition $ off of them. The bad students generally won't make it to the USMLE pt1 because the school can't risk it due to an already low board pass rate. Some of the Ross students I ran into last summer in my library who were studying for boards told me that their incoming '08 class began with around 400 and had around 175 left (including some decels who had been picked up) two years later who were getting their authorization letter from the school to take pt1. That is very similar to TopGun's %s stated above... only about half of his incoming class made it to pt1 on schedule.

In terms of whether a decel student's easier courseload and slightly higher gpa will help them at match, it's not like decel students' transcripts don't show that they failed or withdrew from classes and got put on the extended program. Higher GPA from ligher load or not, those people will have to explain during residency interviews why it took them 5 or 6 or more years to do what most people did in 4 years (on top of explaining why they didn't go to a US med school if they are a FMG).

US med schools have decel programs? I thought that was more of an SGU thing. Or at least a Carib med school program. In any case, there are students at SGU who decel and get their act together by studying harder.
And there are also ones who decel multiple times. I really have to wonder about what kind of restrictions SGU puts on decelling. They're collecting extra tuition from the students who decel multiple times, but they're definitely not doing them any favors. I think deceleration works well for those students who realize they fuc&ed up somewhere along the line and are willing to work harder to achieve their goals. But I have to wonder if the students who have decelled more than two times really belong in med school in the first place.

 

[Law2Doc]

... it shows that as of 2007-match there is NOT a clear-cut advantage for U.S. med school grads while getting matched to the programs they want.

I think you may have lost a key point when looking at those numbers. 94% of US students matched someplace. So that means a big chunk of those residency slots are gone. (i.e. 14,000 of the 21,000 spots gone, leaving 13,000 non-US folks to vie for the remaining 7,000 spots. And a large percentage of the unsuccessful US applicants still scramble and secure residency slots. 4 years of med school is an expensive gamble for an offshore student if there is a better than 40% chance it will not lead to a match/residency, even if many of those who do snag a spot get one of their choosing (after self selection based on their level of competitiveness and interviews)). As others have suggested, there is a lot of self selection in where people apply, and so the fact that caribbean schools are self selecting certain less desirable primary care programs in less than ideal parts of the country, whereas US allo students are more frequently trying to match into more competitive specialties or programs largely explains the reason the percentages line up the way they do. Caribbean schools are not homogeneous and some schools do better than others. But regardless, it is best used as a second choice when the better odds US choices don't pan out.

 

[Despina]

Again, I'm not saying all Carib students are bad (some are great), but the admissions are fairly lax since they are for-profit institutions. You're trying to tell me the average matriculant to SGU (3.3, 27... right?) could've gotten into DO programs and stayed in the US but chose Carib? What is your source? SGU admissions department?

My source is my boyfriend and about 5 of his friends, who have become my friends, who are all SGU graduates. My boyfriend had a post-bac GPA of 3.8 (UG 3.1) and a 29 MCAT and just didn't fair well in the admissions process. Due to his age, he didn't want to wait another year...this is the case with a lot of people who are non-trad. Alot of his friends had similar stats...He said he had several friends that even had scores higher than him. They do have a reduced load, that slows students down to a half course load the first year if they don't think the student is going to make it (but several US medicals schools have this as well. i.e. George Washington University). It takes those kids usually 5 years to complete instead of 4. One of this friends did that and then scored in the 95% on Step 1 and Step 2. Maybe he wasn't the most academically prepared to start with, but he caught up. He also said, that they lost very few of their starting class. He said, "Yeah the school takes a handful of people that just shouldn't be there and probably won't make it, but there a for profit school..." Those people who don't make it, wouldn't have made it in the US either...so the GPA discussion isn't relevant.

 

[oldpro]

You make some excellent points, and yes -- Caribbean medical education works out very well for many people each year. In fact, Ross, St. Matthew and St. George all have some impressive match lists. The perception that Caribbean medical graduates have such difficulty landing residencies probably stems from a couple places -- some graduates apply to top residencies in very competitive specialties (CT surgery, Ortho, etc.) and when they don't match, that brings numbers down. Additionally, there are still a health number of PD's out there who see the foreign medical school on your ERAS application and cringe. Those types may not even be inclined to give you an interview.

The fact remains, however, that medical education el Caribe is specifically geared towards succeeding on the USMLE and the clinical years will really be what you make of them. As such, lots of people each year match into US residencies of their choice in the fields they want at well-known institutions. If you aren't concerned about spending four years in a foreign country -- some with fewer resources than the mainland -- and make sure your school teaches courses in English, then go for it. Do us proud and come back to dispel the rumors that a Caribbean MD is a death sentence for the Match! Good luck!

This the stuff myths are made of

Just about 99% of the Caribbean Schools you spend a Max of 2 years in the Caribbean and do US clinicals, you never go back to the Caribbean after MS II

Many are able to match, there are also many who screw up and never finish but they were screwed up before they even went. Its the Students more then the schools, Medicine is Medicine and if these students were admitted into a US school they would have screwed up too, Caribbean is Second or Last chance at becoming a Doc.

BTW I have many times posted the proof that about 60% or better match from the Caribbean I'm studying for Step one and have little time to post this look at my old posts its there.

Caribbean grads can match outside the match US grads cannot. I agree that Competitive residencies are much much harder to get into though.

Also as I posted 40% will not match
And Caribbean easier to get into and much harder to graduate from,
in the end if you are tough and focused you can succeed