Caribbean

[brettevan]

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Have any fellow non trads ended up going to med school in the carribean?

 

[SpartanGuy]

Are you asking because you are weighing your options or are you just curious?

 

[petyr_baelish]

Anyone who is seriously considering the Carib these days needs to do more up-to-date research. I'd rather spend 200k in Vegas than on a worthless degree.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Given the cost of attending a school down there as well as the fact that by 2016 (which is before a new carib med student would graduate) there will be more US medical students graduating than US residency spots available. The likelihood a carib grad would be able to get one of those spots is virtually non-existent.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Because they all have to go back to school no matter what, I think most nontrads would rather spend an extra year improving their application to the point where they are competitive for DO schools before going to the Caribbean.

 

[Solus]

So the takeaway is DO > Carib MD? Good to know 🙂

 

[LifeTake2]

So the takeaway is DO > Carib MD? Good to know 🙂

Yes.

A US medical degree, regardless of letters you get after your name, will always be better than anything granted by a foreign medical school. IF you want to practice in the US.

 

[QofQuimica]

A US medical degree, regardless of letters you get after your name, will always be better than anything granted by a foreign medical school. IF you want to practice in the US.

Agree if by "foreign medical school," you mean "Caribbean." True foreign medical schools that cater to the best and brightest folks from that home country can be a different story. But that usually doesn't apply to US citizens looking to study abroad.

OP, I wrote a detailed post about why going to the Caribbean was a bad idea a while back. Not only would I make the same arguments today, but I'd make them even more strongly. You should not even be considering Caribbean unless all other options are completely exhausted.

 

[shouldigomd]

Getting a degree from a prestigious university overseas won't help you much if you want to practice in the US. A caribbean degree offers an "easier" route to finding residencies in the US despite "lesser" education. I had the opportunity to go to a prestigious school overseas but I realized that it would be much harder learning through a different system and then trying to get a residency in the US. The "name" of the school was a big time motivator but in the end what was most important was practicing what I wanted in the US ... regardless of what school is on my diploma.

Why so many people hate on the caribbean (and by caribbean i mean big 4) when they have little / no experience except what they read online or overhead rumors ... is beyond me. And so many premeds preaching this to boot! They haven't even seen med school yet! Maybe people feel threatened.

I read your post about carib schools Quimica and I don't completely agree with your outlook. I do agree it should be a last resort. That is obvious. Carib med schools offer an outlet for those who couldn't get into US schools. They hold lower standards (which are increasing) and right now actually SGU's standards are approaching DO standards. Regardless... you have a lower standard of student undergoing something very demanding. It is only natural that these schools have higher attrition rates. Is that a fault of the school? No. Some students change and are capable ... and others aren't. They are simply giving a chance to those who otherwise wouldn't have a chance. And a decent chance at that if you look at match statistics over the past few years. For the student who messed up ... and really wants to be a physician ... the caribbean is the ticket. Fixing mistakes is easier said than done and everyone has a unique scenario that only he / she can judge.

SGU has a high attrition rate because you have to meet a standard once you get here... if you don't meet that standard you go home. They make it very clear that the past is the past and if you want this ... you will work very hard for it. Many first termers went home by midterms after realizing this wasn't a joke. Is the school at fault?

My best friend from high school finished SGU and is now doing his surgical rotations. I guess everyone is going to write him off as "the exception", "the unicorn", the one of thousands that made it... not true at all.

What is true is that IMG's are not as competitive for top tier residency positions. That should go without say. These are very limited so they will only go to the best and you really have to stand out from the caribbean to get something like ortho or derm.

If you are interested in going to the caribbean than talk to one of the thousands of residents who have succeeded at SGU. Look them up online and send an email. Don't talk to those that fail, clueless people on these forums, or people who haven't lived it...

 

[QofQuimica]

Yes, I do think the Caribbean schools, especially the non-Big Four schools, are significantly at fault for scamming many of the students who never make it to residency in the US. They accept students who are not academically strong enough to get through medical school and/or the medical licensing exams; they take hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of these people's money for a few years; and then they quietly sweep their failed former students under the rug when it comes time to post match lists and recruit new prospects. It's also easy to manipulate match lists in other ways, such as by not letting students who aren't up to snuff apply for the match at all, even if they make it through to their fourth year. Yes, folks, a med school does have the ability to prevent a student from entering the match.

You're in your first semester at SGU, and if you had to go Caribbean, you picked the best of those schools IMO. I hope you do end up being one of their success stories.

 

[Law2Doc]

Getting a degree from a prestigious university overseas won't help you much if you want to practice in the US. A caribbean degree offers an "easier" route to finding residencies in the US despite "lesser" education. I had the opportunity to go to a prestigious school overseas but I realized that it would be much harder learning through a different system and then trying to get a residency in the US. The "name" of the school was a big time motivator but in the end what was most important was practicing what I wanted in the US ... regardless of what school is on my diploma.

Why so many people hate on the caribbean (and by caribbean i mean big 4) when they have little / no experience except what they read online or overhead rumors ... is beyond me. And so many premeds preaching this to boot! They haven't even seen med school yet! Maybe people feel threatened.

...
My best friend from high school finished SGU and is now doing his surgical rotations. I guess everyone is going to write him off as "the exception", "the unicorn", the one of thousands that made it... not true at all.

What is true is that IMG's are not as competitive for top tier residency positions. That should go without say. These are very limited so they will only go to the best and you really have to stand out from the caribbean to get something like ortho or derm.

If you are interested in going to the caribbean than talk to one of the thousands of residents who have succeeded at SGU. Look them up online and send an email...

First, I've worked with a few SGU and Ross grads in residency. They would be the first to agree that they are the exceptions, and I've seen that these programs continue to use them as "representative recent graduates" in brochures. So yeah, they are unicorns, and they know it and are willing to acknowledge it. The path worked for them but they aren't deluded to tell others it will work for them too.

Second, you really can't argue that these places don't have high attrition rates, and internal hurdles you have to meet to sit for boards and the match, such that the percentage of people who start at such a med school and actually end up matched in 4 years is less than 50%. for US allo, the percentage is about 90%. And these numbers ignore the dead end prelims, which probably shouldn't be counted, but are by the offshore schools.

Third, I think you are ignoring the fact that the US med schools have been ramping up their enrollment such that every year from here on out us going to be worse for offshore grads than the year before. Combine this with SOAP and elimination of pre matches, and the future looks bleak indeed.

Finally, I think there are offshore students/grads who are confused when they describe posters stating facts about offshore programs as "hate". We don't hate these programs. They are a hail mary last ditch effort for some, and work out for some. But we do think they are a very bad option for most, and becoming a progressively worse option each year. If someone makes it through and gets a good residency I say kudos. They earned it on a much harder road. But that doesn't mean the majority who are contemplating these programs and won't be as successful should be misled.

 

[shouldigomd]

I don't know how to respond to your "unicorn" residency acquaintances but in disbelief. I have read similar things many times on these boards. I conversed via email / phone with over 10 Ross / SGU grads (mostly in IM because thats what I want) in IM, FM, surgery, and one in neuro along with my high school friend. I spent a lot of time researching this as im now currently spending my time + $$ at SGU. None of them told me that they were the superstars on a "failing team." They told me that hard work would pay off and their education at SGU / Ross was good. Not one of them told me what I hear so often on SDN.

I never argue that attrition rates aren't high. I view that as a good thing and it makes me proud to be at SGU. If Carib schools had LOW attrition rates ... that would be a huge red flag in my book. The high attrition rates = lower standard students are coming to medical school. Many are able to fix their mistakes and many aren't. Med school is hard and there is a reason that US med schools are so hard to get in. I am living here at SGU and I see what many students do on weekends and have no problem realizing why students drop out / don't make it. There are internal hurdles that punish those who fail courses. If you fail multiple times .... go home. If you can't pass the boards ... then you can't take them in the fist place. SGU isn't trying to make students fail. If you can't meet the standard then you can't succeed in medicine. It doesn't matter where you learn basic sciences... get your first aid and study!

I 100% agree that caribbean schools are for profit businesses making TONS of money. Much of that $$ coming from ignorant people who shouldn't be in med school in the fist place. Carib should be the last resort and people that blindly go into spending so much money / time / energy into something ... shouldn't be in medicine. But it isn't true that they don't offer a valuable opportunity for those students who really want it. That is my point and what annoys me on these forums.

There are so many people that "hate" on carib schools. I am not saying you guys in this thread but in other threads I have read. They go out of their way to look down upon them in every way while ignoring anything positive. It is a flawed perspective and these boards are supposed to help people by giving them the info needed to make informed decisions. Not to tell people what to do since everyone loves know it all. Everyone is different and has his/her unique struggles. It is so easy to say ... just spend 2 years raising your GPA / do an SMP / etc etc. It isn't that simple for many people. I really tried for years but my shortcomings from early on were never overlooked.

As for the apocalypse of the IMG's that has been predicted to be upon as for over 10 years now ... I don't think much will change but who knows. Ill just keep working hard and thats all i can do.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think that all of us agree that the Caribbean is a last resort. That said, I fully agree that is a viable option. I think the big four (most of which are owned by DeVry now) take a lot of money to give you a shot at a dream. They teach to the boards, but they take a less qualified student body as a whole and have greater attrition.

I've know folks that have gone to AUC and loved everything about it (small classes, good weather, decent housing) and matched (mostly in NY in non-prestigious residencies). They didn't think of themselves as unicorns just as more willing to work hard than everyone else. That said, I don't think I'd encourage anyone to go this route. It's a tough personal call, but I encourage folks to live their dream (or at least try to) and this is one viable path.

While the amount of money in this sucks, I'm a big fan of saying if you have a dream try and live it. I'd rather loose some money now and fail at my dream than live a life wondering what if. I see blogs like this of people the FAILED out: http://www.6medschool.com/. Generally, the don't regret the process, but are happy to have tried. Sometimes life is about more than just money.

I 100% agree that caribbean schools are for profit businesses making TONS of money. Much of that $$ coming from ignorant people who shouldn't be in med school in the fist place. Carib should be the last resort and people that blindly go into spending so much money / time / energy into something ... shouldn't be in medicine. But it isn't true that they don't offer a valuable opportunity for those students who really want it. That is my point and what annoys me on these forums.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think that all of us agree that the Caribbean is a last resort. That said, I fully agree that is a viable option. I think the big four (most of which are owned by DeVry now) take a lot of money to give you a shot at a dream. They teach to the boards, but they take a less qualified student body as a whole and have greater attrition.

I've know folks that have gone to AUC and loved everything about it (small classes, good weather, decent housing) and matched (mostly in NY in non-prestigious residencies). They didn't think of themselves as unicorns just as more willing to work hard than everyone else. That said, I don't think I'd encourage anyone to go this route. It's a tough personal call, but I encourage folks to live their dream (or at least try to) and this is one viable path.

While the amount of money in this sucks, I'm a big fan of saying if you have a dream try and live it. I'd rather loose some money now and fail at my dream than live a life wondering what if. I see blogs like this of people the FAILED out: http://www.6medschool.com/. Generally, the don't regret the process, but are happy to have tried. Sometimes life is about more than just money.

This WAS arguably a viable route but is becoming progressively less so every year for four reasons: (1) the ramping up of numbers at US med schools faster than any increase in residency slots. This means there are fewer and fewer seats for IMGs every year. (2) the end of pre matches. This means offshore grads have to go head to head with US grads for every spot. (3) SOAP, which basically means the scramble is more beneficial to US grads, and (4) the proposed alignment of MD and DO residencies, which will serve to box out more non US med student. So yeah, this was a viable longshot when I was in med school, but I sure wouldn't advise it as strongly to someone who has yet to start.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I couldn't agree more with all your points. Sometimes the thought of not having tried is worse than a long shot. Not only would I not advise this to someone starting out, but I'd say they are completely nuts, ignorant and a lot of other things that would get be kicked of here.

It is a LAST RESORT. You've burned all other options. You couldn't get your MCAT score high enough, you spent years doing grade repair, but there is no route to repair, you've applied several cycles to MD and DO schools and no has given you a call back and there is nothing that schools told you that you can fix. You've considered more established international programs (thinking places like the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland).

ADVISE anyone to go this route... NO. Anyone starting out looking at this route is crazy. That said, I still think it's viable to become a doctor. And, there are other countries your medical degree would be recognized (assuming you don't mind living outside the US).

This WAS arguably a viable route but is becoming progressively less so every year for four reasons: (1) the ramping up of numbers at US med schools faster than any increase in residency slots. This means there are fewer and fewer seats for IMGs every year. (2) the end of pre matches. This means offshore grads have to go head to head with US grads for every spot. (3) SOAP, which basically means the scramble is more beneficial to US grads, and (4) the proposed alignment of MD and DO residencies, which will serve to box out more non US med student. So yeah, this was a viable longshot when I was in med school, but I sure wouldn't advise it as strongly to someone who has yet to start.

 

[Gfliptastic]

I have to agree w/ most of what was said here, w/ one reservation. Technically in the most recent years there has been enough PGY1 spots for every US med school grad. Match rates for USMG's is 93-94%. Why is it NOT 100%?

The unfilled PGY1's are PCP residencies. The students filling the PCP residencies, sometime in the majority, particularly FM are foreign/Caribbean grads.

Anyone reading this who is pursuing a PCP residency, it is no more difficult to secure a PGY1, than it has for the last few years. If you are pursuing a (sub) specialty, yeah push for at least a DO school!

 

[shouldigomd]

I couldn't agree more with all your points. Sometimes the thought of not having tried is worse than a long shot. Not only would I not advise this to someone starting out, but I'd say they are completely nuts, ignorant and a lot of other things that would get be kicked of here.

It is a LAST RESORT. You've burned all other options. You couldn't get your MCAT score high enough, you spent years doing grade repair, but there is no route to repair, you've applied several cycles to MD and DO schools and no has given you a call back and there is nothing that schools told you that you can fix. You've considered more established international programs (thinking places like the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland).

ADVISE anyone to go this route... NO. Anyone starting out looking at this route is crazy. That said, I still think it's viable to become a doctor. And, there are other countries your medical degree would be recognized (assuming you don't mind living outside the US).

But you would advise people go an even more difficult route? Because the name of a "more established international school" > Caribbean schools? SGU / Ross have been around for over 30 years... i consider that relatively established.

I had the opportunity to study at a well known British school and the "flash" of the name was very tempting but life would have been much more difficult if I wanted to practice here in the US.

Studying in a different educational system, studying for their boards, studying for the US boards at the same time, etc etc and in the end guess what ? You are still IMG...

Ill take better preparation for the board exams over the name of a school which is why i made my choice.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think you missed my point or I didn't make it clear. I'd advise people to go to a well know established foreign medical school if THEY DO NOT MIND NOT COMING BACK TO THE US. It depends on circumstances of course. But, your odds are better of practicing in the country you went to school in (Caribbean is the exception). Of course, you'd need to research the path to residency there.

I went back and read my post... I didn't make my point clearly... ops. But, the choice to make is to take a gamble on the Caribbean (I think it's far to say that is roughly a 50/50 and becoming less viable... but a 50% chance at something are still reasonable odss in my book) or to go to a country with no intent to return to the US. I personally feel most folks can get into a US school after a few cycles so this is the worst case scenario choice.

Ill take better preparation for the board exams over the name of a school which is why i made my choice.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

I think you missed my point or I didn't make it clear. I'd advise people to go to a well know established foreign medical school if THEY DO NOT MIND NOT COMING BACK TO THE US. It depends on circumstances of course. But, your odds are better of practicing in the country you went to school in (Caribbean is the exception). Of course, you'd need to research the path to residency there.
.

That is changing. In countries like the UK, Ireland and Australia, foreign citizens are automatically last in line for post graduate training, even when the foreign citizen graduated from medical school in that country. Many of these schools have increased enrollment and started graduate-entry MD programs for internationals, but there has been no increase in post-graduate spots since the assumption is that the internationals will leave after completing their degree.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think you missed the last part of my sentence about getting permanent residency in that country so you are not considered a foreign citizen. In places like the UK that's impossible. It's easier in Australia. I've done the research for some places (Australia was on my list as I have ties there), but there are places where you could potentially end up as a permanent resident of the country by the time you graduate. That way, you are never considered a foreign citizen. There just might not be a path back to practicing in the US.

That is changing. In countries like the UK, Ireland and Australia, foreign citizens are automatically last in line for post graduate training, even when the foreign citizen graduated from medical school in that country. Many of these schools have increased enrollment and started graduate-entry MD programs for internationals, but there has been no increase in post-graduate spots since the assumption is that the internationals will leave after completing their degree.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have to agree w/ most of what was said here, w/ one reservation. Technically in the most recent years there has been enough PGY1 spots for every US med school grad. Match rates for USMG's is 93-94%. Why is it NOT 100%?
...!

match rates are 94%, and another few percent land something in SOAP. A few percent opt to do a research year or otherwise wait for the next match if they don't land their dream residency or have unanticipated life issues (pregnancy etc). So pretty much all of the 16,000 US allo grads end up somewhere if they want to. But no, it won't be 100% because people don't always accurately judge their level of competitiveness, and/or don't take the approach of having a backup if their primary goal doesn't come through. If you shoot for competitive things and don't have a backup you might not match, but you do well in soap because you were presumably on the cusp of being competitive. So don't get hung up on the 94%. The number of US allo grads who end up with nothing is pretty nominal.