CaRMS round 1 during US preliminary surgery?

[Knight_MD]

Hey guys... I just read online on the official CaRMS website something that could mess all of my plans....

I read that applicants with any prior postgraduate training in Canada or the United States are only eligible to apply to and attain positions in the second iteration of the CaRMS Match. I am applying this year for a 1-yr preliminary surgical position in the US, that would start in July 2010. I have not had any previous post graduate training in the US/Canada. My plan was to get 1 year in the US (Canada doesn't offer preliminary 1-yr positions) and apply to CaRMS during this year to do the complete residency in Canada... (I'm a Canadian IMG)

Would I be eligible for the first iteration of the CaRMS match (I'm applying for General Surgery and Urology), next year? If I match in a preliminary (1-yr) position this year in the US, I would be applying for the first iteration of CaRMS after 2 months of starting my 1-year preliminary surgery residency position. I'd like to note that Canada does not have 1-yr preliminary surgical positions and that I would not have "completed" this year by the time of my application, and that this year doesn't qualify me to practice anything.

Surgery is already competitive enough -as an IMG- without me being restricted to the 2nd round...

Thanks... please let me know...

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[MontereyMD]

What is your visa status in the US? Will you need a J-1 or are you a US PR?
If you're a US citizen/PR then no problem...just stay in the US for a full Surgery residency or apply to Canada as well next year.

If you need a J-1 visa you might be screwed by the Canadian Government and Health Canada. You see the concrete thinking clerk at Health Canada in Ottawa will follow an algorithmn. J-1 visas for Canadian citizens are only given out if there is a "need" for that trained physician in Canada. A full 5 year US Residency might get approved for a J-1 but not a 1 year preliminary.
Canadian citizens are the only suckers in the world who have to put up with this. Are you a dual citizen of EU or another country? You may want to get the J-1 through them.
Might be easier to apply for FM or IM in the US: get the residency and get the J-1. In FM you can still do surgery.

 

[Knight_MD]

What is your visa status in the US? Will you need a J-1 or are you a US PR?
If you're a US citizen/PR then no problem...just stay in the US for a full Surgery residency or apply to Canada as well next year.

If you need a J-1 visa you might be screwed by the Canadian Government and Health Canada. You see the concrete thinking clerk at Health Canada in Ottawa will follow an algorithmn. J-1 visas for Canadian citizens are only given out if there is a "need" for that trained physician in Canada. A full 5 year US Residency might get approved for a J-1 but not a 1 year preliminary.
Canadian citizens are the only suckers in the world who have to put up with this. Are you a dual citizen of EU or another country? You may want to get the J-1 through them.
Might be easier to apply for FM or IM in the US: get the residency and get the J-1. In FM you can still do surgery.

Thanks buddy. Actually, getting a Canadian Statement of Need for preliminary surgery in the US is easier than the full categorical residency. I've already been approved in writing by Health Canada to be eligible for a Statement of Need should I land a preliminary position in the US....

So yeah, if I match in the US this year, I'll be on a J1.... so, will I be eligible for the first iteration of CaRMS? It says that those who've "had" postgrad training in the US, I can't apply during the first round... I don't know if 2 months of preliminary surgery in the US qualifies as "had"... what's "had" anyway? Completed a residency? I mean prelim surgery doesn't qualify me for anything anyway...

 

[Giemsa]

It says that those who've "had" postgrad training in the US, I can't apply during the first round

Kee-rect. To the best of my understanding, any residency training anywhere at all eliminates you from the first round.

Call CaRMS to be sure.

 

[Knight_MD]

Kee-rect. To the best of my understanding, any residency training anywhere at all eliminates you from the first round.

Call CaRMS to be sure.

I did... they said they'll give me a detailed response on the 4th. This kinda sucks because I'm applying in CaRMS Urology which is already a long shot for an IMG in the first round... let alone the second round...

However, I got the impression from one of their responses that this rule will apply to me after I finish the preliminary year... and not during it. We'll see. Canada keeps changing the rules, it's hard to find precedent on the forums.

 

[Knight_MD]

To the best of my understanding, any residency training anywhere at all eliminates you from the first round.

Note that the exact wording on the CaRMS website was, "International Medical Graduates who have previous post-graduate training in the U.S. or Canada which would be creditable for the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the College of Family Physicians of Canada certification are ineligible for the first iteration."

The 1-year of preliminary surgery in the US is NOT creditable by the RCPS... Moreover, I would only be 2 months into this year by the time I apply for CaRMS round one...

 

[NewCanadian]

......
The 1-year of preliminary surgery in the US is NOT creditable by the RCPS...

If the one year preliminary surgery program is ACGME-accredited, then the RCPSC does recognize it. The RCPSC recognizes ACGME accredited training, so it is creditable towards the College's specialty training requirements.

Check with the College.

 

[Knight_MD]

If the one year preliminary surgery program is ACGME-accredited, then the RCPSC does recognize it. The RCPSC recognizes ACGME accredited training, so it is creditable towards the College's specialty training requirements.

Check with the College.

Well it is ACGME-accredited. But Canada doesn't have an equivalent of a preliminary year. And if I match in Surgery, I need to start from PGY-1... or can I apply for a PGY-2 position in Canada straight away?

 

[Knight_MD]

So I called CaRMS, at first they didn't know what a preliminary surgery year is. Then they told me to call the Royal College. The Royal College hadn't ever heard of preliminary surgery either. They told me that while they would "recognize it" because it's ACGME-accredited, but they wouldn't be able to "do anything with it"... I'm lost now... No precedent. One question remains: WHY IS THIS EVEN A RULE? What does it accomplish? I'd really love to understand the wisdom behind this strange regulation. I'd be getting a preliminary surgery position on a J1, so I "have to" return to Canada after this year, and CaRMS should be making it easier for me, not harder.

 

[NewCanadian]

So I called CaRMS, at first they didn't know what a preliminary surgery year is. Then they told me to call the Royal College. The Royal College hadn't ever heard of preliminary surgery either. They told me that while they would "recognize it" because it's ACGME-accredited, but they wouldn't be able to "do anything with it"... I'm lost now... No precedent. One question remains: WHY IS THIS EVEN A RULE? What does it accomplish? I'd really love to understand the wisdom behind this strange regulation. I'd be getting a preliminary surgery position on a J1, so I "have to" return to Canada after this year, and CaRMS should be making it easier for me, not harder.

RCPSC means they can't give you access to their surgery examinations with your having completed only one year of surgery ('can't do anything with it'). RCPSC will however assess it along with four more years of surgery in the US. This is not really related to the rules of carms. May I suggest you call carms again, and explain that a preliminary surgery is the same as a PGY 1 in general surgery.

As for returning to Canada after a preliminary surgery year, well, the regulation (written on the ECFMG website) applies only when you are trying to get an H1B visa or other immigrant type visa once the J-1 is finished. Say you did your preliminary year, were unsuccessful in carms, and found yourself without a training position. Then say you come back home to Canada where you set upon the task of seeking a PGY2 surgery in the US. Say then you find an out of match contract starting in November, in the US. You then apply for a J-1 Visa. The two year rule does not apply when you apply for another J-1. But maybe this is too much information....

Seems like this is a new thing for carms...

 

[Knight_MD]

RCPSC means they can't give you access to their surgery examinations with your having completed only one year of surgery ('can't do anything with it'). RCPSC will however assess it along with four more years of surgery in the US. This is not really related to the rules of carms. May I suggest you call carms again, and explain that a preliminary surgery is the same as a PGY 1 in general surgery.

As for returning to Canada after a preliminary surgery year, well, the regulation (written on the ECFMG website) applies only when you are trying to get an H1B visa or other immigrant type visa once the J-1 is finished. Say you did your preliminary year, were unsuccessful in carms, and found yourself without a training position. Then say you come back home to Canada where you set upon the task of seeking a PGY2 surgery in the US. Say then you find an out of match contract starting in November, in the US. You then apply for a J-1 Visa. The two year rule does not apply when you apply for another J-1. But maybe this is too much information....

Seems like this is a new thing for carms...

Great, thanks... I'm dreading this exact same scenario that you described... I really don't know why an IMG with a PGY-1 experience in North American is banned from the first round in CaRMS? I'm not even competing with the Canadian Grads... I don't see the wisdom of this regulation at all.

I'm relying on the fact that when I apply in the second round as someone with PGY1 experience in the US, I'd be a more favorable candidate... the only problem is that I cannot guarantee that there would be surgery positions open in the second round... It's a risk I have no choice but to take, IF I get a preliminary position in the US this year.

 

[ewon2004]

as far as I know,

if you take that prelim surgery, you'll be FOREVER banned from round 1 of CaRMS

Your prelim surgery year is deemed as a post-graduate training.

Post graduate training means training beyond medical school - whether that be prelim / internship or residency etc

If you do that post-graduate training, then according to the rules of CaRMS, you are FOREVER barred from 1st round of CaRMS. Given urology is a competitive match, you chance of getting in from the 2nd round will be close to ZERO.

Canadian urology is a 5 year program (with PGY-1 included, also called 'internship year') while in US it's divided into internship year + residency (4 years). In Canada, there is no such thing as prelim or transition year. You either get into the "internship + residency" combo, or you don't get anything after medical school.

Hence, no one in Canada will be in your position - have an internship position but not residency position - which is why the rule is created that way.

So if you are truely interested in Canadian urology program, do NOT take the prelim surgery spot.

 

[med2UCC]

Lots of Irish grads do intern year and then apply to CaRMS in the 1st round. 2 people in the class graduating before us did it and matched in 2008 on the 1st round, one to FM at MUN and one to Anaesthetics in Regina. This is not a new rule. However, they don't seem to include intern year since Canadian progrmas no longer have a true intern year. If you describe it to CaRMS as an intern year (and it is) you should be fine. Cheers,
M
Curious how not even CaRMS understands its own arcane rules, however.