Case from today

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TheEleventhReel

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71 yo male presents for LMD. Patient seen at preop clinic 3 weeks prior. From clinic note, patient has dual-chamber Medtronic pacemaker placed for symptomatic bradycardia 3 years ago. Patient has 2 cath reports from '08, one of which states 70% LAD stenosis/40% circ, the other performed a few weeks later at separate hospital shows 40% LAD/40% circ. Patient had stress test in 1/11 which showed ST depression and DOE at low levels of exercise.

Lab results obtained at preop clinic show H/H 8/25, all other labs WNL. No mention made of patient's functional capacity or anemia. These are the only records we have on this patient at our hospital.

Thoughts/concerns? Would you do this case?

I'll fill in later the rest of the story
 
Sorry, forgot to add that MCV was 59
 
If emergent/urgent...(which I doubt) Type and cross for two units, Aline, disclose to family risk of periop MI. Consider transfusing prior to induction.... Also what was the patients current med list, would he continue any aspirin 81mg on day of surgery?

If not emergent... Start patient on statin, iron, baby aspirin, beta blocker if not on these therapies. And optimize. If he has symptoms from his disc, a bare metal stent buys him 6mo plavix, and no surgery.

Convincing the surgeon that maybe temporizing therapies like physical therapy, multimodal pain management while achieving medical optimization for CAD and iron defic anemia seems warranted... Again, unless this is an emergency this patient needs optimization... They were seen in YOUR preop clinic...
 
Do you really want to deal with the guy having a peri op MI? I say he needs more tuning up or if not a note from cardiology saying he is untunable.
 
. Patient had stress test in 1/11 which showed ST depression and DOE at low levels of exercise.

Lab results obtained at preop clinic show H/H 8/25,

Thoughts/concerns? Would you do this case?

I'll fill in later the rest of the story

Uhhhhhhhhhhh.......

Are you

SERIOUS?


See how I BOLDED parts of your post?

Please review those.

Then review them again.

I am not a canceling

anesthesiologist.

I wouldntve canceled this case since

This case would not have made it to the books.

This pt was preopped way before the procedure.

That's good.

No way it would've been scheduled.

Here's an anemic patient with myocardium

AT RISK

for an elective procedure.

No chance.

And I don't care about what the mean corpuscular volume is. Bottom line is...

THINK BIG PICTURE:

Dude has like twelve circulating red blood cells. And his cardiac work up

SUCKS.


No way.

You are SAVING THE SURGEON MUCHO HEARTACHE

by saying

NO.
 
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I'm betting we're doing this case. 11th is probably at an academic ctr..this case is going.

A-line, couple of units in the room - transfuse from the time they hit the door, good consent, IV's, magnet and lets play ball. Any ekg changes on induction or early, stops the case. who doesn't have dyspnea these days. pt's probably a chronic pain pt, tired of being in pain - surgeon is his 'advocate', gonna want the surgery and push for it no matter what...probably will find some b.s. cardiology signoff. This case is going...at least I bet it does.

I'm in, but then again I'm CrazyJake.

CJ
 
I'm betting we're doing this case. 11th is probably at an academic ctr..this case is going.

A-line, couple of units in the room - transfuse from the time they hit the door, good consent, IV's, magnet and lets play ball. Any ekg changes on induction or early, stops the case. who doesn't have dyspnea these days. pt's probably a chronic pain pt, tired of being in pain - surgeon is his 'advocate', gonna want the surgery and push for it no matter what...probably will find some b.s. cardiology signoff. This case is going...at least I bet it does.

I'm in, but then again I'm CrazyJake.

CJ

Magnet in prone position is bad idea. Pacer should be reprogrammed. Electrocautery will likely not interfere with the pacer due to distance but give the difficulty of accessing a pacer after the patient is prone, it's worth the effort.
 
Magnet in prone position is bad idea. Pacer should be reprogrammed. Electrocautery will likely not interfere with the pacer due to distance but give the difficulty of accessing a pacer after the patient is prone, it's worth the effort.

Why can't you place a magnet in the prone position? Tape it to him and lay him on it. Pad him enough around it so as not to cause pressure sore.

What do you want to reprogram the pacer to?

Everyone wants to reprogram these days. Why? I believe the anesthesia literature is off on pacers these days. I guarantee if you call the cards guy or the rep they will say no need to reprogram.
 
Why can't you place a magnet in the prone position? Tape it to him and lay him on it. Pad him enough around it so as not to cause pressure sore.

What do you want to reprogram the pacer to?

Everyone wants to reprogram these days. Why? I believe the anesthesia literature is off on pacers these days. I guarantee if you call the cards guy or the rep they will say no need to reprogram.

I think you should only place a magnet if a problem develops (ie pacer inhibits due to Bovie and underlying rhythm is too slow). I don't think a magnet in prone position can be depended on. The recommendations depend on whether or not the patient is pacer dependent and the indication for the pacer. If this patient were dependent I would reprogram to DDO at 85 and also disable the rate adaptive feature. I would do the above instead of placing a magnet (I have struggled too much with them in the past). No one is inconvenienced since I know how to reprogram pacers and AICDs.

The better point is that this case likely doesn't need to have anything done to the pacer. Far from the device and short electrocautery bursts would likely be sufficient.
 
This case would not have made it to the books.

Totally agree.

Why was he getting the surgery? Most likely a microdisk is for radicular symptoms or even radiculopathy, which data is pretty clear that in matched cases (surgery vs non-operative management), patients are the same 1 year out.

Give the guy some epidural steroids or nucleoplasty.
 
I'm betting we're doing this case. 11th is probably at an academic ctr..this case is going.

A-line, couple of units in the room - transfuse from the time they hit the door, good consent, IV's, magnet and lets play ball. Any ekg changes on induction or early, stops the case. who doesn't have dyspnea these days. pt's probably a chronic pain pt, tired of being in pain - surgeon is his 'advocate', gonna want the surgery and push for it no matter what...probably will find some b.s. cardiology signoff. This case is going...at least I bet it does.

I'm in, but then again I'm CrazyJake.

CJ


:laugh:👍
 
Bare metal stent buys you 4-6 weeks of Plavix, not 6 months, no?

I could be wrong, but current ACC/AHA guidelines say 1 year of Plavix if it's post PCI... (again, as I recall. I have 2 papers on VLBMST and did a load of reading therein)...

D712
 
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Thanks for all the responses so far. I felt exactly the same way most of you guys do - a horrendous preop for a patient who is at serious risk for an intraop cardiac event. I called my attending and told him the scoop. The surgeon who is doing this case sends EVERY patient he operates on to the preop clinic so none of his cases will be cancelled day of surgery. Our preop clinic really dropped the ball on this one.

It's a first case start, so my attending says we'll eyeball the guy in the AM. If he has any whiff of a decrease in his functional status (DOE, CP), we'll cancel the case.

Day of surgery I see the guy in the holding room and do a thorough preop.

Guy had pacemaker placed for symptomatic bradycardia and he had a holter monitor placed a few years ago and it showed some episodes of PSVT. He couldn't remember why he had a cath (wife says for CP) - the guy who did the first cath was not an interventionalist, so he was shipped to another hospital for repeat cath and PCI. The repeat cath only showed 40% stenosis of LAD/circ, so no PCI was warrented per the note. Patient states he can walk up hills and climb 2 flights of stairs with no CP/SOA. He does state he gets SOA when "my heart rate gets up."

Patient has had surgery before with no anesthetic problems. One was a bowel resection for Crohn's disease, which he was diagnosed with 7 years prior.

Patient is on atenolol, 325 ASA, and 5mg prednisone. He states he has been on low-dose prednisone for the past 5 months since his last Crohn's exacerbation. He was transfused 5 U PRBC during his bowel resection approx. 1 year ago.

Repeat Hg in preop holding is 7. Patient has NEVER been told by his PCP his Hg is low

I tell my attending the scoop, HOPING this case will be cancelled so I won't have to present this at M&M, and more importantly, so I won't kill this guy. BTW, patient tells me he wants to have this surgery so he can start fishing again, since he hasn't been fishing in the last 4 years when his son (age 42) had an MI and died in front of his eyes in the fishing boat. Now I'm really worried.

We T&C for 2 U. No Versed. Pre-induction Aline. Magnet in the room.

Induction with Etomidate, Fentanyl, lidocaine, and roc. Easy mask, easy DL. SBP never gets above 140. 16g PIV placed after induction. Send off an ABG after induction - repeat Hct is 19 (after 1L LR). 2U PRBC go in. EBL 100. NO EKG changes at all. Patient wakes up smooth - goes home 3 hours later.

I still cannot believe we did this case. I think we and the patient were very fortunate this did not end badly.
 
Fe deficiency would imply that it's correctable and argue for delaying the case a few months (as it doesn't sound all that urgent), vs if it was ACD in an old dude that's never gonna get better

this wouldn't work with my patient population so i really don't care if it's reversible like already said if it's an emergency i would transfuse two units prior to induction or at least be one unit in before going to the OR.

otherwise i would cancel until there's cardiology clearance/optimization.
 
I still cannot believe we did this case. I think we and the patient were very fortunate this did not end badly.

He's not out of the woods yet. Very few periop cardiac events happen in the OR or even PACU. His biggest risk for MI is over the next few days and weeks when his clotting system is revved up and his body is fighting to repair the tissue trauma from surgery.

I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole in preop with a Hgb of 7 and his cardiac hx. Other than to say hey, which cardiologist do you want to see?
 
Everyone wants to reprogram these days. Why? I believe the anesthesia literature is off on pacers these days. I guarantee if you call the cards guy or the rep they will say no need to reprogram.

Of course they will say that. They don't want to be bothered to come in and interrogate and appropriately program the device. If I had access to the programmers I wouldn't bother them, but I don't so they can come program the device the way that I want it for surgery.

If they can send me the printout of the last interrogation, and the patient is not dependent, there is a good battery etc then I am happy if they just check it afterwards.

If the patient is dependent, I want it programmed correctly. Why would any anesthesiologist have a problem with doing the safest thing for an elective case. Magnets are for emergencies. Last time I tried to get away without a reprogram, I was sorry.


I could be wrong, but current ACC/AHA guidelines say 1 year of Plavix if it's post PCI... (again, as I recall. I have 2 papers on VLBMST and did a load of reading therein)...

Time to elective surgery after bare metal stent is 4-6 weeks. Time to elective surgery after drug eluting stent is one year.


This guy got lucky so far. Just because he got lucky doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

- pod
 
Of course they will say that. They don't want to be bothered to come in and interrogate and appropriately program the device. If I had access to the programmers I wouldn't bother them, but I don't so they can come program the device the way that I want it for surgery.

If they can send me the printout of the last interrogation, and the patient is not dependent, there is a good battery etc then I am happy if they just check it afterwards.

If the patient is dependent, I want it programmed correctly. Why would any anesthesiologist have a problem with doing the safest thing for an elective case. Magnets are for emergencies. Last time I tried to get away without a reprogram, I was sorry.




Time to elective surgery after bare metal stent is 4-6 weeks. Time to elective surgery after drug eluting stent is one year.


This guy got lucky so far. Just because he got lucky doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

- pod

Periopdoc, can u clarify for me? I was referring
To recommendation of clopidogrel following (certain) PCI. isn't that ideally 1 year per guidelines? Or were u agreeing and stating time between implantation and elective surgery thereafter? You're the CT anesthesiologist here... This grasshopper awaits, D712
 
👍
Of course they will say that. They don't want to be bothered to come in and interrogate and appropriately program the device. If I had access to the programmers I wouldn't bother them, but I don't so they can come program the device the way that I want it for surgery.

If they can send me the printout of the last interrogation, and the patient is not dependent, there is a good battery etc then I am happy if they just check it afterwards.

If the patient is dependent, I want it programmed correctly. Why would any anesthesiologist have a problem with doing the safest thing for an elective case. Magnets are for emergencies. Last time I tried to get away without a reprogram, I was sorry.




Time to elective surgery after bare metal stent is 4-6 weeks. Time to elective surgery after drug eluting stent is one year.


This guy got lucky so far. Just because he got lucky doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

- pod
👍👍👍👍👍👍
 
some pacers/ICD's (boston sci, i believe) have the option to have magnet inactivation deactivated... meaning the magnet will do nothing.

Yet another reason to interrogate.
 
Following implantation, re-epithelialization of the stent reduces the risk of in-stent thrombosis. However, this takes time and we protect the patient by placing them on therapy to reduce the risk of thrombosis prior to re-epithelialization. Due to the cytotoxic nature of the DES, re-epithelialization is prolonged compared to BMS. (3-6 months for BMS vs ??? for DES, some say 21 months)



Current ACC/AHA guidelines (the ones we should go by) recommend DAT (dual antiplatelet therapy ie plavix and aspirin) for at least 1 month after bare metal stent implantation and 12 months after drug eluting stent implantation. They also recommend 12 months of DAT in patients who receive bare metal stents and are at low risk for bleeding.

The European Society of Cardiology recommends 6-12 months of DAT following routine placement of a stent and 9-12 months if the placement of the stent was for an acute coronary syndrome.



Current data is fairly weak with conflicting results. More importantly, the question of "net clinical benefit" i.e. a composite endpoint of risk of bleeding combined with benefit from reduced restenosis (Byrne et al) has not been addressed.


Two large ongoing studies may further elucidate optimal duration.

The big one is the DAPT study. 15,000 DES patients and 5,000 BMS patients. comparing 12 months of DAT with 30 months of DAT. With a budget of some $100 million and industry support from all the major players, this is a key study to watch for. Results should be available in 2014.

Since I always love the iconoclast, the more interesting study is ISAR-SAFE. This one is looking at six months vs twelve months of dual therapy. They plan to enroll 6000 individuals and results should be available in 2013. Surprisingly they do not seem to have any industry support.

Preliminary data from Korea was presented at the ACC conference this past April that suggests that a six-month duration of treatment is non-inferior to 12 months of therapy.




Then there is the question of interrupting DAT for surgery.

AHA/ACC guidelines are as follows.

- Aspirin therapy should not be interrupted.

- Surgery with low bleeding risk should be performed without interrupting the second antiplatelet agent if possible.

- Patients with BMS should not have disruption of antiplatelet agents for a minimum of 4-6 weeks after implantation.

- Patients with DES should not have disruption of antiplatelet agents for a minimum of 12 months after implantation

- Consideration of heparin bridging should be given to all high-risk patients with stents.


If one is undergoing PTCA with the foreknowledge of imminent surgery, then balloon angioplasty without stenting can be performed. There should be a 2-week window between balloon angioplasty and surgery.

Hope that helps someone

- pod
 
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Pod,

If pt had a DES placed > 12 months ago - say 2-3 yrs out - and presents for noncardiac surgery, has been off both ASA and plavix for 2 weeks, do you give an ASA on surgery day? 325 or 81? Do you not worry too much about it?

My understanding is that there are no specific ACC/AHA guidelines for DAT in DES pts after 12 months, but many cardiologists just continue DAT indefinitely to minimize risk of thrombosis.

I've seen many pts coming surgery day w DES's and their surgeon or podiatrist or whoever has stopped their plavix and ASA for 2 weeks preop. This scares me a little b/c of case reports of thrombotic events in DES pts 3-4 yrs out. Am I overreacting?

Thanks alot.
 
Until DAPT comes out, I don't think we are going to have guidance on the optimal duration of therapy so the cardiologist that is continuing his guy for 3 years must have a significant concern about this patient's risk of thrombosis to expose him to the significantly higher risk of bleeding. Keep in mind that even if we find out that the average patient (non-diabetic, stent in a large coronary etc) is best served with a 6-12 month DAT regimen, there will still be those outliers who have extenuating circumstances and will do better with longer therapy.

Still, I believe that it is over-reacting to be highly concerned about discontinuation of therapy in someone who is that far out from implantation. Re-epithelialization has occurred and so DAT is almost a form of primary prevention at this point.

I would be a lot more comfortable if the responsible cardiologist had given the instructions to discontinue DAT, but I would still do the case.

The idea of administering aspirin in that situation had not occurred to me, but it would probably be appropriate to administer it in PACU if the case has potential for bleeding, or even in preop for something like a podiatric surgery. How does 162 mg sound?

- pod
 
11th, I'm glad you posted this case, it is a good topic for discussion, and I just have a few comments.

First -- NOKWTFLMDSF. Oh you don't know that abbreviation? That's short for No One Knows What The F*ck LMD Stands For.

Second -- just have to agree with time to d/c of plavix after BMS as 6 weeks. NONETHELELESS the data supports the idea that the longer you wait to d/c plavix to do some elective surgery, the lower the risk of perioperative MACE. 12 weeks better than 6. 52 weeks better than 12. Etc.

Third -- absolutely agree that the device rep comes in, programs that pacer to DOO at 70-80something, and reprograms afterward. I personally believe it is ultimately the SURGEON'S job to at least get the ball rolling on this guy's device. A preop clinic should serve this purpose as well. But surgeons should (and do) know what devices their pts have and that electrocautery interferes with them.

Fourth -- I cannot believe you guys did this case. And then sent him home. After an A-line. And 2 units pRBC. And 1L of LR to get you to anemia severe enough to transfuse. Helluva case. It doesn't sound like your attending and the surgeon had much of a discussion.
 
Following implantation, re-epithelialization of the stent reduces the risk of in-stent thrombosis. However, this takes time and we protect the patient by placing them on therapy to reduce the risk of thrombosis prior to re-epithelialization. Due to the cytotoxic nature of the DES, re-epithelialization is prolonged compared to BMS. (3-6 months for BMS vs ??? for DES, some say 21 months)



Current ACC/AHA guidelines (the ones we should go by) recommend DAT (dual antiplatelet therapy ie plavix and aspirin) for at least 1 month after bare metal stent implantation and 12 months after drug eluting stent implantation. They also recommend 12 months of DAT in patients who receive bare metal stents and are at low risk for bleeding.

The European Society of Cardiology recommends 6-12 months of DAT following routine placement of a stent and 9-12 months if the placement of the stent was for an acute coronary syndrome.



Current data is fairly weak with conflicting results. More importantly, the question of "net clinical benefit" i.e. a composite endpoint of risk of bleeding combined with benefit from reduced restenosis (Byrne et al) has not been addressed.


Two large ongoing studies may further elucidate optimal duration.

The big one is the DAPT study. 15,000 DES patients and 5,000 BMS patients. comparing 12 months of DAT with 30 months of DAT. With a budget of some $100 million and industry support from all the major players, this is a key study to watch for. Results should be available in 2014.

Since I always love the iconoclast, the more interesting study is ISAR-SAFE. This one is looking at six months vs twelve months of dual therapy. They plan to enroll 6000 individuals and results should be available in 2013. Surprisingly they do not seem to have any industry support.

Preliminary data from Korea was presented at the ACC conference this past April that suggests that a six-month duration of treatment is non-inferior to 12 months of therapy.




Then there is the question of interrupting DAT for surgery.

AHA/ACC guidelines are as follows.

- Aspirin therapy should not be interrupted.

- Surgery with low bleeding risk should be performed without interrupting the second antiplatelet agent if possible.

- Patients with BMS should not have disruption of antiplatelet agents for a minimum of 4-6 weeks after implantation.

- Patients with DES should not have disruption of antiplatelet agents for a minimum of 12 months after implantation

- Consideration of heparin bridging should be given to all high-risk patients with stents.


If one is undergoing PTCA with the foreknowledge of imminent surgery, then balloon angioplasty without stenting can be performed. There should be a 2-week window between balloon angioplasty and surgery.

Hope that helps someone

- pod

Thanks Periop Doc! I understand the mechanism of the first paragraph and was quoting ACC/aha guidelines. But was using "ideal" durations and not minimums. Now I see what you're saying. And also, I see where the 4-6 weeks versus 12 months comes from re: surgery. Thanks for post! D712
 
He's not out of the woods yet. Very few periop cardiac events happen in the OR or even PACU. His biggest risk for MI is over the next few days and weeks when his clotting system is revved up and his body is fighting to repair the tissue trauma from surgery.

I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole in preop with a Hgb of 7 and his cardiac hx. Other than to say hey, which cardiologist do you want to see?

Dingdingding!!! Dont keep him for three days but cant send him home day of surgery. Should have stayed the night.
 
This thread reminds me of the Simpsons:
If a tree falls in the forest but there is no one to hear it, did it make a noise?

If he has an MI at home but goes unnoticed, did it really happen?


OP,
Have you post opped him yet?
 
I completely agree with all of the responses.

I DID NOT think that doing this case was a good idea. Had I been the attending, I would've cancelled this case and had this guy seen one of our cardiologists. I was very surprised b/c the attending I was working with is very conservative. I wanted to post this case to make sure I wasn't crazy. I'm still learning and obviously I'm not calling the shots, but this guy would've never gone to the OR that day had I been in charge of his anesthetic.

I feel we did this patient a huge disservice.

I've been sick about this case all week.
 
I completely agree with all of the responses.

I DID NOT think that doing this case was a good idea. Had I been the attending, I would've cancelled this case and had this guy seen one of our cardiologists. I was very surprised b/c the attending I was working with is very conservative. I wanted to post this case to make sure I wasn't crazy. I'm still learning and obviously I'm not calling the shots, but this guy would've never gone to the OR that day had I been in charge of his anesthetic.

I feel we did this patient a huge disservice.

I've been sick about this case all week.

ive had more than one attending tell me "if a patient wants the surgery, its not elective" as a resident, obviously i couldt do anything about it then, and i have to admit, i havent cancelled many cases as an attending, and only one for something other than NPO violation (daily chest pain in a poor historian with no records and no follow up from CABG five years prior), but im also not yet numb to the influx of suboptimal patients that present for major surgery. keep your head up, you took excellent care of your patient, and ultimately, thats your job. as i find myself repeating, someone would have done this case...perhaps its best that it was you?
 
I completely agree with all of the responses.

I DID NOT think that doing this case was a good idea. Had I been the attending, I would've cancelled this case and had this guy seen one of our cardiologists. I was very surprised b/c the attending I was working with is very conservative. I wanted to post this case to make sure I wasn't crazy. I'm still learning and obviously I'm not calling the shots, but this guy would've never gone to the OR that day had I been in charge of his anesthetic.

I feel we did this patient a huge disservice.

I've been sick about this case all week.

Bravo, you're conscientiousness will make you a great physician when you're done training. 👍
 
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