Case Western: College Program VS Regular Program

[Multilocularis]

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Well, I just received an email to interview at Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine, but I was hoping someone could clarify this for me:
Are the graduates of this program granted regular MD, or MD/PhD? Also, is this specifically for investigators, or those interested in clinical also attend this program? I am not sure anymore that research is what I want to do.

 

[MD Wiggy]

Well, I just received an email to interview at Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine, but I was hoping someone could clarify this for me:
Are the graduates of this program granted regular MD, or MD/PhD? Also, is this specifically for investigators, or those interested in clinical also attend this program? I am not sure anymore that research is what I want to do.

The CCLCM program grants a straight MD with distiniction in Biomedical research. It also requires a full 12 months of a masters level research project. So, you can take it for what it is worth as far as clinical v. investigation.

 

[annamarie]

Do you have an mdapplicants.com profile? I'm curious what numbers are necessary to get an interview there. I'm waiting for one with my fingers crossed! 🙂

Best of luck with your interview! 👍

 

[Multilocularis]

Do you have an mdapplicants.com profile? I'm curious what numbers are necessary to get an interview there. I'm waiting for one with my fingers crossed! 🙂

Best of luck with your interview! 👍

Annamarie,
I don't have a profile, but I am by no means a genius 🙂
OK MCAT, very good GPA, and ( I am guessing) very good letters. Go figure...
I applied to CWRU, and checked off Lerner COM on secondary just in case (pun fully intended)
Hope you hear from them very soon, good luck!
What makes Lerner so good in your eyes? Maybe I should consider it more seriously.

 

[MrTee]

For some reason, I thought the graduates of the program end up with an MD/MS. I may be mistaken though. It is definitely a 5 year program.

 

[JDWflash44]

Its an option to get an MS in clinical research, but not a requirement. Yes, it is a 5-year program, with a yearof research in there, and it is made for people who want to pursue careers in academic medicine. This doesnt necessarily mean sitting in a lab and doing research, but it does mean at least having a clinical research component to your career. It's not really for people who just want to do private practice. But checkout their website and materials, dont make a decision based on people on SDN...

Jim

 

[xanthines]

It basically seems to be "MSTP-lite", where you get a good amount of serious research experience without the pains (mostly) of the PhD. You DO have to do some bench research, as I understand it, but other than that one rotation or block or whatever the hell they call it, the rest is pretty much up to you.

The extra year doesn't have to be all at once. You can spread out the research year throughout the entire med school curriculum, which may actually be better if you're doing longitudinal clinical studies. On the plus side, it's a flexible program. On the downside, it's a flexible program.

Oh and it's pretty much 100% PBL, which may be kind of freaky for some.

-X

 

[oompa loompa]

It basically seems to be "MSTP-lite", where you get a good amount of serious research experience without the pains (mostly) of the PhD. You DO have to do some bench research, as I understand it, but other than that one rotation or block or whatever the hell they call it, the rest is pretty much up to you.

The extra year doesn't have to be all at once. You can spread out the research year throughout the entire med school curriculum, which may actually be better if you're doing longitudinal clinical studies. On the plus side, it's a flexible program. On the downside, it's a flexible program.

Oh and it's pretty much 100% PBL, which may be kind of freaky for some.

-X

current CCLCM student? Please share more.
Yes, the 100% PBL thing IS scary, for good reason too. I've heard the first 2 years are all about learning a large amount of info...I can see lots of people learning this more efficiently via lecture. PBL is great as a supplement, but I can't see it totally replacing lecture. The whole evaluation process (or rather, lack of evaluation, lack of tests, etc.) seems sketch as well. Finally, I gues you guys skip the dissections and just look at the slides? That seems weak...there must be intrinsic value to all the hands-on work, otherwise why does anatomy lab comprise the majority of 1st year time? Sorry if I sound too critical. I just really wonder about the CCLCM program. If you could provide some firsthand insight, that'd be great!

 

[forevalwayzz]

CCLCM was my last choice when i first applied, but after the interview, it has become my top... and can't go wrong with free tablet pc from gateway ^_^

 

[xanthines]

No, just a regular Case student.

They don't do dissections, but they learn from prosections. On the plus side, they don't stink like formaldehyde and the instructors actually teach them anatomy. On the other hand, they don't get the whole "learn by doing" thing. Then again, you don't have to rely on your teammates or your own dumb brain. People have different opinions on the gross anatomy portion. I mean, when was the last time your doctor needed to identify the masseteric nerve on a cadaver? You learn biochem by sitting in lectures, not by doing the experiments. Why not anatomy? It might be important if you're interested in surgery or forensic pathology, I suppose.

They do peer evaluations, so you do get told that you suck at biochem or whatever. Don't worry about that!

They get to watch our lectures on streaming video I'm told. That is, if they should want to for some reason.

-X

current CCLCM student? Please share more.
Yes, the 100% PBL thing IS scary, for good reason too. I've heard the first 2 years are all about learning a large amount of info...I can see lots of people learning this more efficiently via lecture. PBL is great as a supplement, but I can't see it totally replacing lecture. The whole evaluation process (or rather, lack of evaluation, lack of tests, etc.) seems sketch as well. Finally, I gues you guys skip the dissections and just look at the slides? That seems weak...there must be intrinsic value to all the hands-on work, otherwise why does anatomy lab comprise the majority of 1st year time? Sorry if I sound too critical. I just really wonder about the CCLCM program. If you could provide some firsthand insight, that'd be great!

 

[uclabruin2003]

hi all...so to shed more light.
CCLCM quick facts:
32 students
PBL
Organ Based
5 year program with 1 year reserach (optional Masters in almost anything you want)
Strong Clinical Experience
Strong Reserach Experience

Okay...so to start off:

Curriculum - It is basically composed of 3 sessions of PBL a week. Then there about 6 seminars/labs a week. 1 of them will be anatomy and yes you will have prosections (All ready cut bodies). however if you really want to cut you have the option to do so during the second year. anatomy is to be learned throughout basically 2 years...so you basically dont forget anatomy. THe other seminars and labs may expand on information that you will touch on in PBL. Such as in the cardio-pulmonary block when we want to learn about the heart as a pump we will go to an Echocardiogram lab and see what they do. That is, they will explain to us what the heart is, how an echo is used, how to interpret one, etc, etc. You may also go to small seminars in which an interactive lecture is presented (level of interactivity depends on the participants and speaker). These seminars/labs will build upon the knowledge you gain from PBL. The good thing about this is that almost every core concept during the week will be touched upon 2-4 times (from your anatomy class to your seminars to your labs to your PBL). The one thing that I didnt realize is that so much of our learning is going on in these cool areas. that is we arent always going to be in a room with a speaker. its not rare to go into a lab where the PI explains what they do and relate it back to the subject of the week; they then show you an experiment on a rabbit heart. I can not stress this enough but learning here is very interactive. I love it.

Evaluation - Here is the tricky part. we dont get graded. we dont even pass or fail classes or test. there are no real tests. we pass or fail an entire year. so how do you know how well you do? feedback! you get feedback everywhere; 90% it will be constructive. there isnt so much "this persons a b$%H"; it is intended to be helpful. every week you will also be given multiple choice and essay type questions. although you will not be graded, you will use this as part of your portfolio. with this feedback and other stuff you construct a portfolio and try to show where you are weak, where you are strong, how you will improve and create a learning plan on how to be better. if you are doing bad in class...you will know. and if you are doing well....you can tell as well. you will also have an advisor who is a physician who will personally meet with you every other week to help you get on your path.

Clinical - sometimes i think about how much i like research and what not and why CCLCM is so great...and then i remember that we probaby have the best clinical program in the country! we just started but i like it. every other week you have clinic with a preceptor. there are set objectives for you to meet every week. you will learn basically by the end of 1st year to do an entire history and physical exam. every other week, you will have clinical skills training where you will improve your physical examination skills and your communication skills. also during your 2nd year these clinicals become every week and during your research year, you must also go to clinic one afternoon a week.


Research - 1st summer - basic science reserach. 2nd summer - clinical reserach. Year long reserach with thesis, you can do what ever you want..but IF you do a masters you must make the thesis correspond to your masters. CCF is great bc there are so many projects going on. you have connections to case western, the VA, metrohealth, and of course CCF....all of that combined is a pretty big # of projects.

People - basically all the faculty and administration are here to support you. you will never feel that you are being lied to, being mean or being betrayed, etc. this is a common problem you will find at other med schools. Everyone i have met have only met the highest level of professionalism. Almost everyone that is teaching you is on a volunteer basis. meaning these people are not really being paid to teach you; they typically are PIs or doctors at the clinic. this means that they really really do want to be there since they are volunteering. last i checked the faculty to student ratio was pretty ridiculous...anyways the students you will meet will also be awesome. the admissions committee does a great job to bring in 32 great individuals. most of your classmates if not all will be highly social and will be fun to be around.

I think our program has something for everyone. So....i HIGHLY encourage anyone to apply. once you get an interview and see first hand about what i mean....yeah...you will be highly impressed and pleased.

 

[uclabruin2003]

oompa loompa said:"Yes, the 100% PBL thing IS scary, for good reason too. I've heard the first 2 years are all about learning a large amount of info...I can see lots of people learning this more efficiently via lecture. PBL is great as a supplement, but I can't see it totally replacing lecture. The whole evaluation process (or rather, lack of evaluation, lack of tests, etc.) seems sketch as well. Finally, I gues you guys skip the dissections and just look at the slides? That seems weak...there must be intrinsic value to all the hands-on work, otherwise why does anatomy lab comprise the majority of 1st year time? "

1st - PBL/seminars/labs teach you a lot of things. i admit you probably get less out of that than lecture in sheer amounts HOWEVER how much you retain is another matter. so a person who goes to lecture learns 70% of the material but retains 20% of it within 3 months. but the person learns PBL style probably learns 50% but retains 30%. There are articles on this and of course my % are just hypothetical but you catch the drift. also PBL is not for everyone if you love lectures then PBL is not for you. but if you like to learn in an interactive manner...give PBL a chance. i am sure everyone has had reservations about PBL before they came to our school, but i have never heard anyone say that it sucks or that its horrible.

2nd - evaluation is not really sketchy. the thing about cclcm is that it really is a graduate program not a medical school program. by that i mean they let you explore your interests. they let you be an adult. they do not spoonfeed you material. they also do not tell you how well you are doing. if you had a job, when was the last time you got a grade? did you however get an evaluation? all would say yes. in the real world when you are a doctor, no one gives you a grade. they do however evaluate you. i think the program that we are given is more of a reflection of what the real world will be like.

3rd - prosections are not pieces of tissues on a slide. they are just bodies that have been cut in the areas they need to be cut so you can see what you need to see. also we use unembalmbed bodies so basicaly the body that you will see will look exactly like the body you see in surgery. most schools will use embalbmed bodies that look grey and what not. ours are very realistic looking. in any case, nothing about our school is old school. everything is very new-school. our anatomy professor is Dr.Drake...and he authored "Grays anatomy for students" and is considered to be one of the preeminent anatomists in the nation. note that alot of the time in anatomy is wasted on cutting to get to the thing you want to see. also ask any former medical student, a big majority of them will say that anatomy was a waste of time since all you want to do is just see the right organs. most of the time in a traditional anatomy lab you will probably saw off the wrong thing and then you cant see it anyways. but like i said if you really want to cut, you can do it in your 2nd year.

 

[Doko]

hi all...so to shed more light.
CCLCM quick facts:
32 students
PBL
Organ Based
5 year program with 1 year reserach (optional Masters in almost anything you want)
Strong Clinical Experience
Strong Reserach Experience

Okay...so to start off:

Curriculum - It is basically composed of 3 sessions of PBL a week. Then there about 6 seminars/labs a week. 1 of them will be anatomy and yes you will have prosections (All ready cut bodies). however if you really want to cut you have the option to do so during the second year. anatomy is to be learned throughout basically 2 years...so you basically dont forget anatomy. THe other seminars and labs may expand on information that you will touch on in PBL. Such as in the cardio-pulmonary block when we want to learn about the heart as a pump we will go to an Echocardiogram lab and see what they do. That is, they will explain to us what the heart is, how an echo is used, how to interpret one, etc, etc. You may also go to small seminars in which an interactive lecture is presented (level of interactivity depends on the participants and speaker). These seminars/labs will build upon the knowledge you gain from PBL. The good thing about this is that almost every core concept during the week will be touched upon 2-4 times (from your anatomy class to your seminars to your labs to your PBL). The one thing that I didnt realize is that so much of our learning is going on in these cool areas. that is we arent always going to be in a room with a speaker. its not rare to go into a lab where the PI explains what they do and relate it back to the subject of the week; they then show you an experiment on a rabbit heart. I can not stress this enough but learning here is very interactive. I love it.

Evaluation - Here is the tricky part. we dont get graded. we dont even pass or fail classes or test. there are no real tests. we pass or fail an entire year. so how do you know how well you do? feedback! you get feedback everywhere; 90% it will be constructive. there isnt so much "this persons a b$%H"; it is intended to be helpful. every week you will also be given multiple choice and essay type questions. although you will not be graded, you will use this as part of your portfolio. with this feedback and other stuff you construct a portfolio and try to show where you are weak, where you are strong, how you will improve and create a learning plan on how to be better. if you are doing bad in class...you will know. and if you are doing well....you can tell as well. you will also have an advisor who is a physician who will personally meet with you every other week to help you get on your path.

Clinical - sometimes i think about how much i like research and what not and why CCLCM is so great...and then i remember that we probaby have the best clinical program in the country! we just started but i like it. every other week you have clinic with a preceptor. there are set objectives for you to meet every week. you will learn basically by the end of 1st year to do an entire history and physical exam. every other week, you will have clinical skills training where you will improve your physical examination skills and your communication skills. also during your 2nd year these clinicals become every week and during your research year, you must also go to clinic one afternoon a week.


Research - 1st summer - basic science reserach. 2nd summer - clinical reserach. Year long reserach with thesis, you can do what ever you want..but IF you do a masters you must make the thesis correspond to your masters. CCF is great bc there are so many projects going on. you have connections to case western, the VA, metrohealth, and of course CCF....all of that combined is a pretty big # of projects.

People - basically all the faculty and administration are here to support you. you will never feel that you are being lied to, being mean or being betrayed, etc. this is a common problem you will find at other med schools. Everyone i have met have only met the highest level of professionalism. Almost everyone that is teaching you is on a volunteer basis. meaning these people are not really being paid to teach you; they typically are PIs or doctors at the clinic. this means that they really really do want to be there since they are volunteering. last i checked the faculty to student ratio was pretty ridiculous...anyways the students you will meet will also be awesome. the admissions committee does a great job to bring in 32 great individuals. most of your classmates if not all will be highly social and will be fun to be around.

I think our program has something for everyone. So....i HIGHLY encourage anyone to apply. once you get an interview and see first hand about what i mean....yeah...you will be highly impressed and pleased.

That response was just so awesome. THANK YOU. I wish we SDNers still had those gem points thingies... I would give it to you like 50 times!!

Thanks, Bruin. Good luck to you!

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Does everyone interviewing at CCLCM also interview at Case? Or vice versa?

 

[MrTee]

Does everyone interviewing at CCLCM also interview at Case? Or vice versa?

No, it's a separate process for each program.

 

[Doko]

No, it's a separate process for each program.

Everyone I know who applied to both programs and got an interview received an interview from BOTH programs.

I wonder if they make a collaborative effort in both cases?

 

[funshine]

I know several people who were only invited to one of the interviews.


seems like everyone at Case/CCLCM has really high levels of school spirit 😉