CCLCM vs VCU

[satuday]

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I've been accepted to both CCLCM and VCU. Major perk of CCLCM is that it is tuition free, major perk for me for VCU is that it is close to home and I know a lot of people there. I would have to pay full in-state tuition for VCU. Being close to home is important to me but it also seems like being selected for CCLCM is a great opportunity. CCLCM has an extra year in the curriculum for research, is it worth one extra year to graduate without any medical school loans? That means a "physicians salary" one year later, which would be used towards paying back the loans of course. Both schools look like they produce competitive match results. Opinions?

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Lol wasn't somebody just debating Mayo vs. VCU? The clinic-based programs must like Virginia residents or something...

Anyway, for advice, it would be helpful to know a bit more about you.

For example, CCLCM has PBL-centered curriculum, obviously the research is important, etc. Are you ok with that teaching style? Do you want to be involved with research (I imagine so since you applied, but just throwing out examples of additional info that could be helpful)? Where do you want to ultimately practice (in Virginia for sure, then maybe VCU, if elsewhere probably CCLCM)?

As somebody matriculating there but *trying* to be objective, I'd take CCLCM in this case 🙂

 

[satuday]

CCLCM is very PBL-centered and I think that works well with me, but it seems to me that VCU is trying to become this way as well...their curriculum changed to incorporate small group learning. Both have a similar half day schedule with a lot of independent study time. I am not completely sure about what type of medicine I want to practice in the future but I am not opposed to research (which is why I applied). I would definitely want to come back to the DC area post med-school, could CCLCM limit that opportunity? Basically, I really like both programs, although they differ in their curriculums and CCLCM is research intensive while VCU pretty much has no research ingrained into their curriculum, i could see myself being happy with either program. I really like Richmond and know I would be happy living there, but not so sure about Cleveland. I guess the dilemma is staying close to home and living in a city I really like but being 100K+ in debt vs. a full tuition scholarship at a prestigious institution far from my family in a city I'm not so found of?

 

[wholeheartedly]

The research isn't a minor sideline so if you're kind of on the fence I'd think really hard about that. It's integrated into every aspect of the program.

Also as you mentioned you have the full tuition scholarship but hit the attending salary a year later. You'll mostly likely still need to take out loans to cover living expenses at CCLCM and that's for five years, so the cost difference is probably going to be quite a bit less dramatic than it may initially appear.

I'm just not sure if you're not super passionate about research, which is who the program was designed that the extra year and work and distance from your family would be worth it.

I say that as a future applicant to the program.

 

[FullThrottle5]

You can't go wrong with either program. It sounds like your gut is telling you VCU but you want to consider cclcm. Physicians I have talked to have told me that choosing a medical school should come down to where you feel most comfortable. For you, it sounds like VCU would be that choice considering it is close to home and family. Also, it wouldn't be as major of a transition to move to Cleveland.

You also brought up good points about the cost of the programs and the unique curriculum of cclcm. My advice would be to determine which curriculum is more appealing and then weigh out which characteristics about each school are more important to you. Things like proximity to family, curriculum, residency reputation, and cost are some things to consider and it seems like most of these favor VCU in your circumstance. I also highly valued family proximity and comfort level at the second look/interview in my selection. However, if you weigh one thing over the other it could swing the other way. To me, it sounds like your gut is telling you VCU and my advice would be to go with it!

Either way, you can't make a wrong decision. Congratulations on being accepted to two great schools!

 

[EnjoyingTheJourney123]

I also would go with VCU in your case. I agree that it sounds like that is what your gut is telling you and you have listed several factors that are important to you in selecting a school that favor VCU. You don't have to find an excuse to go to cclcm, just go with your gut!

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

CCLCM is very PBL-centered and I think that works well with me, but it seems to me that VCU is trying to become this way as well...their curriculum changed to incorporate small group learning. Both have a similar half day schedule with a lot of independent study time. I am not completely sure about what type of medicine I want to practice in the future but I am not opposed to research (which is why I applied). I would definitely want to come back to the DC area post med-school, could CCLCM limit that opportunity? Basically, I really like both programs, although they differ in their curriculums and CCLCM is research intensive while VCU pretty much has no research ingrained into their curriculum, i could see myself being happy with either program. I really like Richmond and know I would be happy living there, but not so sure about Cleveland. I guess the dilemma is staying close to home and living in a city I really like but being 100K+ in debt vs. a full tuition scholarship at a prestigious institution far from my family in a city I'm not so found of?

Agreeing with what others said, if you're on the fence about research maybe VCU is closer to being on equal footing (though research aside, even as far as clinical diversity you don't get much better than the Cleveland Clinic and the system they have at CCLCM, which includes a VA hospital, a county hospital, etc). Also, if you're just looking to move back to DC to practice and, at this point, don't have some desire to be in academic med/some other more competitive areas then the difference in "door-opening" opportunities CCLCM would probably offer over a place like VCU isn't really as huge a deal.

However, while "going with your gut" is a viable option, and surely "gut" preferences should be included in the calculus, I do think it's important to acknowledge differences to complement the gut feeling with some reasoning as well. Some of those thoughts:

Concerning location, I think you have to decide what you want. If you'll be happier in Richmond and that's your end goal (being happy, it is a rational one to have), then VCU would win out on that front. I will say I don't think you should pass up opportunities (and the Cleveland Clinic is a truly unique, world class institution that will bring with it unique opportunities) just because you're comfortable in a current place without full knowledge and acceptance that you're doing so. This is to say, I don't think the schools are equal in what they offer, I don't think trying to rationalize that point is the way to go, but rather if comfort with location from the start (because my guess is youd grow to be happy at either) is the top priority for you then I don't see any reason to artificially overvalue the clinical/research opportunities at CCLCM because SDN says they should be the most important factor in picking a school. On a related note, I believe moving outside one's comfort zone can bring with it tremendous growth - I do think getting out of a comfort zone (leaving Virginia, being in a new city) is another "opportunity," but med school will be challenging enough and if that isn't the type of "opportunity" you want at this stage of life I don't see any reason to put an artificially positive value on it. I do think, as I stated before, acknowledging those differences exist is important because I think it then let's you know what you really care about and let's you decide accordingly.

Concerning the price difference, this idea that you simply "lose a year of salary" in a 5 year program flawed, and I've tried to write why on SDN before but usually it takes too long and just ends up as a wall of text so I'll just keep it to: cost, no matter how you rationalize it, will be tens of thousands of dollars less at CCLCM and you will come out financially ahead. Always interesting to me how everybody complains about cost, you even see articles by med students in the New York Times and on well-known blogs, yet when people have the choice so many go with the more expensive option. Granted, in this case I think the reasons are more legitimate (aka it kills me when people pick Hopkins at 250k over full rides at a place like Duke for the "prestige" difference).

Unlike so many that think you're making the most important decision ever when picking a med school and that prestige is paramount, I think if you're looking at an MD school you usually can't go wrong. Here you've got legitimate reasons for both schools. CCLCM is cheaper, VCU is in the better location (for you), and the factors that would otherwise separate the two schools (the fact that CCLCM is more conducive to competitive academic med positions, has more name-brand recognition for other jobs in healthcare (admin/policy), is a better place for research, etc) don't seem to be huge factors for you personally, at least not huge relative to something like location. As such, as long as after you pick you don't sit and agonize over the counterfactual I'm sure you'll end up happy and a great doc at the end of the day.

To boil it down to a direct opinion: For me, CCLCM was 100% a no brainer (incredible clinical and research opportunities, small class size that gives lots of individualized attention, inspired every time I walk into a world-class hospital, lower cost, pass/fail all years including 3rd year, etc). For you, trying to be rational/remove emotions you may be feeling from the choice and based only on what you seem to value in your posts and knowledge of med school debt, etc, I'd be probably 50.5% CCLCM (based on cost, because I think we're underestimating what tens of thousands of dollars difference means) 49.5% VCU (based on location, because it seems you really do value this over some of the bonus opportunities CCLCM may offer).

And that concludes my wall of text haha…but really, good luck with the decision!

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

I also would go with VCU in your case. I agree that it sounds like that is what your gut is telling you and you have listed several factors that are important to you in selecting a school that favor VCU. You don't have to find an excuse to go to cclcm, just go with your gut!

Also, totally just random, but your three post have literally only been to comment to tell people to go to schools other than CCLCM haha. Not attempting to "call you out" as I think you've brought up valid points in every argument and aren't just needlessly bashing or anything, was just interesting - you've got a passion for people going with their hearts over their wallets!