CERAC Machine

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Hey there,
Can someone tell me more about the CERAC machine? I know that it's a crown/restoration system and stuff like that.
What else do you know about it?
Thanks

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Just so you know, it's CEREC, not CERAC. Might help if you are trying to look stuff up on the internet. 🙂
 
Ok. Thanks.
Do you know anything about it?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I know that it takes the fun out of doing it yourself. 😛
 
Well, I haven't actually seen one in use, but I'll share what I think I know. The Cerec takes an optical "impression" of a tooth and then uses cad-cam technology to mill a ceramic block into a crown or restoration based on the specifications of the dentist/operator.

It sounds really cool, but at the current pricetag (~$100,000) it seems like it would be more cost-effective just to send things out to an old-fashioned lab. Hopefully by the time we all get around to owning our own offices there will be some competition and the price will be a little more reasonable. 🙂
 
Thanks for the websites SpongeBobDDS.
 
imho, they are great for doing inlays and onlays...

..i've seen some full coverage crowns...and i will withhold my opinion.
i will just assume the machine was not in skilled/experienced hands...

i'm not willing to call the technology a "breakthrough" dental innovation.

that said...
i do have an interest in the technology..
..however, the cost is still prohibitive.
 
From what Ive heard if you use CEREC effectively, you can recoup the money you invested in it within a couple of years from what I've heard. I don't know about the quality it produces, but I will say that a lot labs have a similar machine (cerec in-lab) that does the same thing. If you want natural looking restorations you have to do the dyeing and shading after youve milled your restoration which can sometimes be a pain. On the plus side, its possible to finish the treatment in one visit (although I still have my doubts about the quality of work it does... seems "too easy" in my opinion).
 
I have seen the CEREC in action and have been impressed with what it can do. Granted, I am only a first year, but I have learned enough to see a lot. I have seen the dentist use it for crowns and veneers and have been really impressed. He absolutely loves it. No labs is huge. Plus you can finish the whole procedure in one visit. Usually in no more than 2 hours. That could be the most appealing because you don't have to deal with temporaries.

He also said that you need to make sure you are doing enough crowns/veneers in a given month to pay for it though. He said as long as he does more than 13-15 a month, it more than pays for itself, with less of a hassle. He charges around $700 for a crown. Great machine.
 
I am a hygienist and I am hugely impressed with cerec. I have heard of dentists being somewhat frustrated with the learning curve of the machine. The newest one, Cerec 3D is supposed to be the easiest to use. Folks that still use the original or even Cerec 2 have more trouble with them. The next thing Cerec needs to do is make the machine upgradable, so everyone doesn't have to go out and blow another 100K when the next cerec comes out.

That said, the cerec restorations I have seen in the mouth are very natural looking, with great margins. I have not seen a restoration that is more than 4 years old however, so I don't know how I feel about its long term possibilities. It was explained to me at the Himnan by a cerec rep that the restorations are ceramic, not porcelain, and therefore not as damaging to opposing teeth. The ceramic is supposed to wear like a natural tooth, but it is not as forgiving as gold is. Since our office does mostly gold molar crowns and porcelain fused to gold crowns elsewhere, I would love to see the cerec come to our office because no more metal on anterior crowns. Just my opinion. If you go to any local meetings, check out their booth. Of course you will only get the pro-cerec opinion there, but its still pretty amazing.

Talia
 
TaliaTN said:
It was explained to me at the Himnan by a cerec rep that the restorations are ceramic, not porcelain, and therefore not as damaging to opposing teeth. The ceramic is supposed to wear like a natural tooth, but it is not as forgiving as gold is.
Talia

my understanding is porcelain is a type of ceramic....both one and the same.
porcelain is just a "high fired" ceramic...

i think reps are great to learn about new products..but as the previous poster mentioned, u can not rely on them for your "product research"
their job is to make that sale...


however, a quick google search does show data that backs up the rep's claim..
🙂
http://www.planetcerec.com/research/wear_comparison.shtml
 
cerec for 100k.... maybe the 100k write off upgrade could take care of it!
 
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EyeCandy said:
cerec for 100k.... maybe the 100k write off upgrade could take care of it!

i'd prefer to write off the new bmw M5 company car..
 
toothcaries said:
i'd prefer to write off the new bmw M5 company car..
Surely you jest. 🙄
 
The dentist I know who has a Cerec originally had the 2. I know he now has the 3. I think he just got an upgrade from some sort of program without spending all that cash.
 
I am finishing off my undergraduate and applying to dental school right now, so I'm definately no authority, but the dentist that I shadow most is a CEREC disciple. I have seen several CEREC restorations performed.

The big thing that I hear touted about the cerec are:

No lab costs, porcelin restorations color and wear like real teeth, one visit restorations, can save original tooth structure in many instances.

One application in which I understand is especially unique to the CEREC technology is when a cusp breaks off of a premolar. (Cusp breakage is realatively common in deeply filled pre-molar teeth.) Normal restorative treatment of such a break would be to remove all damaged material, take a mold, and place a crown. However, I am told that sometimes to using this old method may lead to sensitivity and pain at times. The CEREC is supposed to be able to take a picture and recreate the missing cusp structure. Then reproduce it in porcelin or other material. This sort of cusp replacement will become a booming business as more and more elderly people seek dental care for their old fillings. Bottom line: The restoration conserves natural tooth strength, eliminates some sensitivity, is astheticly pleasing, can be done in one visit.

Some problems I have seen with CEREC:
There is a learning curve with this new technology. To get the restoration from a picture to porcelin the doctor must use a CAD program to litterally make a digital mold on the computer. This takes a lot of perceptual ability. Little story: A dentist spent time explaining to a patient that he wanted to use this new technology (CEREC) and the restoration would be fantastic! The patient was excited about it, so the doctor went ahead. Using the system spent two hours prepping the tooth, making the 3D restoration, milling the restoration, and setting the restoration---only to find out that he had made the new restoration too short! There was a gap in the bite, So the whole thing had to be ripped out and replaced. Embarassing and costly.

The machines I have seen have all cost around $100,000. One dentist dropped the very sophisticated 3D inter-oral camera and he said it cost several thousand to fix (I want to say 5-6K but can't remember). It was a very expensive bobble anyway. Someone else mentioned that one needed to do about 15-20 restorations per month for the CEREC to pay for itself...I have heard similar figures.

All things considered, the doctors that I know that use them would never give it up now that they have it.
 
I own a CEREC machine and I LOVE IT for many reasons. I see many patients from out of town (we have a large farming community) and some folks travel up to 4 hours to get to me. It is great to be able to do an ENDO, buildup and CROWN in one visit and it saves them having to come back for multiple visits.

One thing that CEREC has taught me, and that is GOOD DENTISTRY. If your preps are shabby, your CEREC resorations are shabby. There is a steep learning curve and all the principles of basic prep design with some slight modification are important. If (like most of you) you are computer literate, the principles of using a PC make life alot easier - not like the older dentists who are mostly clueless.

The price tag is heavy, so it isn't something you can go out and buy when recently graduation, but it is definately something to look forward to. In the next couple of years (as the SIRONA 20 year patent is now up), you will start to see more chair side milling machines coming onto the market, so you guys are in for a wonderful future in dentistry.

The material choice has been extended from just plain porcelain to ZIRCONIA, which means you can practically mill out full strength crowns metal free. There is also a couple of labs that you can email your preps to, and they will mill out gold crowns for you which they courier anywhere in the world.

If you would like to know more, please shout - I am always willing to answer any questions you may have.

TDI
 
The machines and accessories are expensive as hell. If you do 10-15 cases per month just send the whole batch to China/Mexico/Costa Rica for $15-30 bucks a crown. Save your valuable time and energy for other hobbies or family. The more hi-tech and expensive something is the more time and frustration and money is spent dealing with them. Then the manufacturer will come out with upgrades and second and third and fourth editions, which may or may not be better, and then cost you more manpower and money.
 
I designed a cerec crown myself today (and I am just an assistant). It is very fun and easy, takes 6-8 minutes to design and 8-12 minutes to mill. Cerec restorations are beautiful and an awesome treatment in many (but not all) restorations.

One cool thing is you can scan the existing tooth before you start and get an exact replica for a crown, or you can scan a bite registration and get a restoration exactly fitted to the occlusion.

The basic process is
1. scan existing tooth (if good bite, etc)
2. prep tooth
3. spray white powder on full arch including prep
4. scan tooth with camera attatched to computer (on wheels)
5. design restoration using picture of prep on the computer
6. select block shade and size and insert in milling unit
7. mill
8. adjust (check bite and margins before cementing, then you wont have to "rip it out" like someone mentioned earlier, questionable.....)
9. cement (usually with maxcem after yellow etch and silane treatment).

You do NOT have to dye the restoration or anything, after it comes out of the milling unit you just have to grind off the sprew and polish it and it is good to go.

Cerec is great and easy for onlays and inlays and crowns, as long at the tooth is tall enough so that the crown can be thick enough to be as strong as the alternatives. I think veneers are better from a lab because you cant get warmer shading at the gumline or any intrinsic lines or characteristics from a uniform block. I work in an office with two drs 4 days per week and we do 40-50 cerec restorations per month. More perks: There are almost never open margins, and you can see the tooth thru the crown on xrays so you can see decay etc. Oh, and the pts are totally impressed watching the drs design and they LOVE not having a temporary and coming back. I think it rocks. Hope that helps.
 
SFPredent
May I know what type of ceramic you used to do a milling on cerec. 8-12 min seem to be not a very dense materials..I guess is alumina porcelain or unsintering Zirconia since mica ceramic is already out of date. And are you do a sintering after that, just curious. Thanks
 
SFPredent
May I know what type of ceramic you used to do a milling on cerec. 8-12 min seem to be not a very dense materials..I guess is alumina porcelain or unsintering Zirconia since mica ceramic is already out of date. And are you do a sintering after that, just curious. Thanks


Hi. I dont know what exactly the material is, tho I bet I could find out today. We use Vita Mark II blocks and Procad blocks mostly. We also click that little enable fast milling button, which I am sure has something to do with it. And no sintering. I will look up the block material today and get back to you 🙂
 
Hi. I dont know what exactly the material is, tho I bet I could find out today. We use Vita Mark II blocks and Procad blocks mostly. We also click that little enable fast milling button, which I am sure has something to do with it. And no sintering. I will look up the block material today and get back to you 🙂

Most of the cerec ceramic blocks(including the Vita Mark II) are feldspathic porcelains or ceramics(this term can be used interchangeably with feldspathic restorations). Empress is cast, feldspathic is baked. Empress is usually referred as a ceramic(it is more glass-like rather than porcelain.

I used the Cerec for a year. Unless you are really doing quadrant dentistry (multiple cerec restorations/appointment) I find the cost effectiveness outweighed by the frustration involved with taking the images. There are major limitations with esthetics as well. The blocks come in one shade, and unless you want to buy an oven and stain, there is little character in the restorations. Im sure there are plenty of cerec experts out there that will firmly disagree, this is just my opinion from the experiences I've had.

I did mill a full crown for myself (#18) that is still functioning 6 years later.
 
You do NOT have to dye the restoration or anything, after it comes out of the milling unit you just have to grind off the sprew and polish it and it is good to go.

If you want to have a precise shade match in an esthetically critical area (anteriors, 1st PM, some 2nd PM, and even some Max. 1st molars) you actually DO have to utilize custom staining with current cerec technology. This is necessitated by the limited variety of block shades available, and is further complicated by the monochroma and opacity of the blocks. This easily eliminates any time savings of cerec over lab ceramics, assuming you are going to stain all your cerecs in order to obtain equivalent esthetics to the lab processed ceramics.

If I were a GP I would not be satisfied with this technology yet. I still think it is worth the extra (short) cementation appointment to get better margins, better shade, and better anatomy as can be easily acheived by a variety of stacked or pressed laboratory ceramics.

That said, there are plenty of GP's out there that will settle for the lesser esthetics, poorer shades, less detailed anatomy, and more open margins of cerec in exchange for the slight increase in productivity.

But then there is the whole aspect of overdiagnosing lesions in order to justify the larger preps necessary to utilize the cerec machine that you have already signed up for. You know, those moderate sized composite fillings that are too small to replace with a cerec, but you could make them a little bigger if you "needed" to and then maybe you would actually have to replace a cusp. Ooops, now its an Onlay! And since you kinda need to do 15-20 cerecs a month to pay the lease, well . . . You get my point.

When someone is using Lab porcelins, this little quandry is less likely to come up (but still could).
 
One application in which I understand is especially unique to the CEREC technology is when a cusp breaks off of a premolar. (Cusp breakage is realatively common in deeply filled pre-molar teeth.) Normal restorative treatment of such a break would be to remove all damaged material, take a mold, and place a crown. However, I am told that sometimes to using this old method may lead to sensitivity and pain at times. The CEREC is supposed to be able to take a picture and recreate the missing cusp structure. Then reproduce it in porcelin or other material. This sort of cusp replacement will become a booming business as more and more elderly people seek dental care for their old fillings. Bottom line: The restoration conserves natural tooth strength, eliminates some sensitivity, is astheticly pleasing, can be done in one visit.

Uhhhh...about this new "technology". What you are talking about, I believe, would in dental vernacular be called an onlay. I sure hope this new technology is proven by the time I am ready to practice.
 
I am getting one in my office! *crosses fingers*

They are pretty sweet. Now all I need is a laser attachemnt for my loupes:meanie:
 
Uhhhh...about this new "technology". What you are talking about, I believe, would in dental vernacular be called an onlay. I sure hope this new technology is proven by the time I am ready to practice.

Uhh, you dont need a cerec to place an onlay either.
 
I've seen some; IMO, their fit and margin are poor. Most of our professors have similar experience.
 
I wouldn't listen to your dental school professors about cerec or any new technology because they don't know enough about it. Professors are isolated from real world dentistry. If you think the margins on cerec are poor then I would love to see what you think is a good margin. My cerec margins are so much better than any pfm I've seen, you do not feel a "click" like you do with most pfms, fgcs. The aesthetics can be better than pfms if you use an oven.
 
I wouldn't listen to your dental school professors about cerec or any new technology because they don't know enough about it. Professors are isolated from real world dentistry. If you think the margins on cerec are poor then I would love to see what you think is a good margin. My cerec margins are so much better than any pfm I've seen, you do not feel a "click" like you do with most pfms, fgcs. The aesthetics can be better than pfms if you use an oven.

So tell me, to obtain these "better" esthetics, please tell me from start to finish the length of the appointment (prep, picture, milling, staining, baking, insertion).
I cant see how a CEREC stained restoration can be better, regardless of how good a stainer you are, than a well characterized Empress.

I do agree with you on the margins, IF your preparation is impecable.
 
An hour and a half from seating the patient to the patient leaving.

A well done empress does look better, but it costs $225 and has 2 appointments compared to my $20 in one appointment. The patient doesn't have to walk around in an ugly temp for 2 weeks. Plus, I never said it is more aesthetic than an empress, I said it is more aesthetic than a PFM.
 
All I know about CEREC is what I learned during my interviews... at least UF and Columbia made a point of showing us "CEREC in Action!" while mentioning every other sentence that it costs about $105k. So when I went to NYU, I thought I'd ask them if they had CEREC. The guy shrugged and said "we have like 15 or 16 of them I think".

I was amused.
 
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Our concept is simple, bringing the latest CEREC technology, with a fully certified technician directly to you. You are now able to offer your patients what other dentists have been able to do for a few years - but without the headache or worry of making a huge financial investment and continual expensive education. You can fully dedicate your time to being what you are best at . . . being a dentist - NOT a dental technician.


You will be recognized by your patients as a high tech dentist for offering same day quality treatment - which means a lot to them. This service adds great value to your practice and patient's satisfaction.


We don't sell CEREC machines. This service is here to make your life a little less stressful. The service we provide is professional, convenient, hassle free, and great value for money.


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We will also offfer free training on how to properly do a CEREC prep.

I'm a master CEREC technician and I would be happy to answer any of your questions about CEREC.

Cat
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