CESI - yes or no?

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NJPAIN

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  1. Attending Physician
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50 yo with 10 yrs of neck and right UE pain/numbness. Over the past six months she has noted some weakness in the right UE particularly in grip strength and fatigue when writing. She presents to her general ortho who tells her to "get an epidural" because she is developing nerve damage. MRI shows C3-4 thru C6-7 moderate central stenosis with bilateral moderate to severe foraminal stenosis on the basis of disc bulging and uncovertebral hypertrophy. No cord signal changes. On exam she has no weakness. She has some loss of sensation to pinprick in a right C6 distribution. Lhermette's sign not present. Bilateral hoffman's that is significantly augmented with neck flexion and extension. DTRs are brisk but not abnormal. No increased tone. Bowel and bladder function is intact. No difficulty with ambulation. Finally, she tells me that she is coming for the ESI not for pain (she considers it not severe) but rather because of the subjective right UE weakness.

Would you do an ESI in this case? Would you do an ESI if patient presented with numbness and pain that they did not consider bothersome but who is looking to resolve or halt the progression of weakness.? Would you do an ESI in the absence of pain but in the presence of numbness and/or weakness?
 
Finally, she tells me that she is coming for the ESI not for pain (she considers it not severe) but rather because of the subjective right UE weakness.

In short, my recommendation to the patient would be to avoid the epidural. Not because it can't be done safely, but because it is not indicated for weakness. I would recommend, instead, an EMG in an effort to objectify her subjective symptoms.
 
CESI for subjective weakness and emg only if you can see a level that wont get fused on mri and can prove fusing that level not necessary. ESI for failing conservative care also useful to let acdf occur.

Assumes that ACDF is the only surgical tx for radiculopathy. But it isn't.
 
In short, my recommendation to the patient would be to avoid the epidural. Not because it can't be done safely, but because it is not indicated for weakness. I would recommend, instead, an EMG in an effort to objectify her subjective symptoms.


I declined to do the ESI and suggested a surgical consultation. I told her that CESI not indicated for weakness. Then I quickly thought, how will respond I if she asks me "why?" Then I realized that I wasn't sure why and that bothered me. I looked for an answer in between patients but could not find it. Anyone know why? Does it have something to do with fiber size?
 
I declined to do the ESI and suggested a surgical consultation. I told her that CESI not indicated for weakness. Then I quickly thought, how will respond I if she asks me "why?" Then I realized that I wasn't sure why and that bothered me. I looked for an answer in between patients but could not find it. Anyone know why? Does it have something to do with fiber size?

Radiculopathy is conduction block. Steroids don't fix conduction block.
 
In short, my recommendation to the patient would be to avoid the epidural. Not because it can't be done safely, but because it is not indicated for weakness. I would recommend, instead, an EMG in an effort to objectify her subjective symptoms.

I don't get why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch.
The patient meets several criteria for ESI.

1-paresthesias indicating radicular component to symptoms
2-Significant anatomic pathology with neurologic deficit, (picking up mild arm weakness on clinical exam is its own art form)
3-chronic symptoms that are unlikely to improve without physician intervention

CESI is perfectly reasonable, (with an appropriate explanation of risks and potential benefits)
Can you guarantee her strength will improve after ESI? No.
Do I see it happen all the time? Yes!

This is 10X more justified than all the BS epidurals I see the local yokels do for axial spine pain.

EMG is unlikely to isolate level without painful symptoms. Also less useful to decrease costs, than just doing the damn epidural. Better to do ESI, than just let her go straight to ACDF. Do you think a surgeon will see all that and not operate?
 
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i expect "my" surgeons to see all that and not offer surgery until there is clear documented arm weakness or impending cord compromise. this has been my experience with them already.

now some of the other surgeons in the area may not be so scrupulous...
 
sure you CAN do an ESI. indication for it is weak, at best.

TRUE weakness, due to axonal damage/radiculopathy will not be relieved with an ESI. Weakness due to pain inhibition might respond. EMG could help decipher between the two.

An EMG can definitely give you a level and aid in a more appropriate rehab plan (at least that is what the AANEM would tell you).

If it were my patient?

I'd tell them that a CESI probably wont help with her primary complaint -- weakness. Time and focused PT with or without an EMG. If no better in 6 months, surgical consult.
 
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This is a case where EMG may indeed provide valuable information. ESI is +/- ....there may be an indication but the patient may not achieve her desired outcome.
 
50 yo with 10 yrs of neck and right UE pain/numbness. Over the past six months she has noted some weakness in the right UE particularly in grip strength and fatigue when writing.?[/QUOTE

Did she or did she not have pain?

I would be willing to bet that if this pt presented to your clinic, most would strongly consider
an ESI for the symptoms.
 
Radiculopathy is conduction block. Steroids don't fix conduction block.

So you are saying TFESI, or ESI can't play a role in treating radiculopathy?
 
So you are saying TFESI, or ESI can't play a role in treating radiculopathy?

No. The presentation here is too muddy. Subjective hand fatigue/weakess? Sounds
Too much like undx CTS.
As Kyphoplasty is to tx acute CF pain - not vertebral body height - so ESIs are to tx
radicular pain- not weakness or vague parenthesis.
 
So you are saying TFESI, or ESI can't play a role in treating radiculopathy?


we have all seen those patients who some in with pure motor weakness -- and no pain, from a disc herniation. disc only picks off the motor fibers maybe?

i have seen many of these patients -- many referred specifically for an injection -- who i have elected to not do a shot on for this very reason.
 
Radiculopathy is conduction block. Steroids don't fix conduction block.

May be conduction block. May be dennervation. Or may be radiculitis if no weakness.

CTS may be conduction block. CTS symptoms may be relieved with steroids.
 
No ESI. Lyrica or gabapentin. Yes to EMG. Weight restrictions. Sx is the condition worsens.
 
I don't get why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch.
The patient meets several criteria for ESI.

1-paresthesias indicating radicular component to symptoms
2-Significant anatomic pathology with neurologic deficit, (picking up mild arm weakness on clinical exam is its own art form)
3-chronic symptoms that are unlikely to improve without physician intervention

CESI is perfectly reasonable, (with an appropriate explanation of risks and potential benefits)
Can you guarantee her strength will improve after ESI? No.
Do I see it happen all the time? Yes!

This is 10X more justified than all the BS epidurals I see the local yokels do for axial spine pain.

EMG is unlikely to isolate level without painful symptoms. Also less useful to decrease costs, than just doing the damn epidural. Better to do ESI, than just let her go straight to ACDF. Do you think a surgeon will see all that and not operate?

agree with this 100%. As he said, cant guarantee anything. I've seen enough patients who have told me that their 'weakness' is better/resolved. Now if it's severe, that's a different story. If theres severe stenosis somewhere, that's also a different story.

Also it depends on how long the weakness has been there. If the patient states that the weakness has been there for 1 month or so. Well, then the 'damage' is already done. The chances of the surgeon 'fixing' that is slim.
 
No ESI. Lyrica or gabapentin. Yes to EMG. Weight restrictions. Sx is the condition worsens.

What 'weight restrictions'?
 
50 yo with 10 yrs of neck and right UE pain/numbness. Over the past six months she has noted some weakness in the right UE particularly in grip strength and fatigue when writing. She presents to her general ortho who tells her to "get an epidural" because she is developing nerve damage. MRI shows C3-4 thru C6-7 moderate central stenosis with bilateral moderate to severe foraminal stenosis on the basis of disc bulging and uncovertebral hypertrophy. No cord signal changes. On exam she has no weakness. She has some loss of sensation to pinprick in a right C6 distribution. Lhermette's sign not present. Bilateral hoffman's that is significantly augmented with neck flexion and extension. DTRs are brisk but not abnormal. No increased tone. Bowel and bladder function is intact. No difficulty with ambulation. Finally, she tells me that she is coming for the ESI not for pain (she considers it not severe) but rather because of the subjective right UE weakness.

Would you do an ESI in this case? Would you do an ESI if patient presented with numbness and pain that they did not consider bothersome but who is looking to resolve or halt the progression of weakness.? Would you do an ESI in the absence of pain but in the presence of numbness and/or weakness?

I could answer this question better if only I knew how and why epidurally placed steroid works. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I understand that. I would venture to guess most on this board don't know why they work either (yet I'm sure some think they do). For a start, it would help if we understood better why people in our clinics are in pain. Often, that doesn't seem to be too clear either. This pain work is hard stuff.

If only that Manchikanti dude wouldn't have done a bizillion studies showing that saline worked in the epidural space as well - maybe I would have thought I understood better. But then steroids work in spinal stenosis sometimes - but that makes no sense either. Sometimes appropriately placed epidural streroids on a clearly radicular pain pattern with clear concordanant MRI findings don't do anything.

It's all just very confusing....
 
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Here ya go Epidural man:

Steroids bind to cytoplasmic GC receptors within target cells -> DNA binding proteins
Hormone binding site & DNA binding site are expressed in almost every type of cell
The inactive GR is bound to a large protein complex and folded into a conformation that Is optimal for binding and prevents the unoccupied receptor from entering the nucleus.
Once GC binds, GR complex dissociates & activated GC translocates to the nucleus -> binds to DNA at GC response elements (GREs) in the promoter sequences of target genes->GR expression regulates at transcriptional, translational, or post-translational levels. This mechanism appears to account for the effect of steroids on the transcription of collagenase. Collagenase transcription is induced by tumor necrosis factor a (TNFa) and phorbol esters, which activate apoprotein-1. The GR complex binds AP-1, forming a protein-protein complex and causing mutual repression of DNA binding. In another possible mechanism of inhibition of gene transcription, the GR enhances the transcription of specific ribonucleases that break down mRNA. Steroid administration blocks cytokine effects. Cytokines promotes prolonged eosinophil survival, increased adhesion molecule expression, potentiated eosinophil degranulation, and movement of eosinophils across and endothelial barrier leading to programmed cell death, or apoptosis. Expansion in the number of circulating neutrophils secondary to decreased adherence to vascular endothelium (demargination) and stimulation of bone marrow production. GCs interefere with T-cell mediated immunity. They inhibit production of T lymphocytes by downregulating T-cell growth factors IL-1B and IL-2, and inhibit the release of various T-lymphocyte cytokines. Potently inhibit inducible form of NOS in macrophages, and prevents the induction of NOS expression by endotoxin. (Cytokines induce nitric oxide synthase (NOS), -> ↑’d nitric oxide production -> NO increases plasma exudation in inflammatory sites)
Adhesion Moleculesfacilitate trafficking of inflammatory cells to sites of inflammation
The expression of the adhesion molecules E-selectin, P-selectin, and intracellular adhesion molecule-1 on the surface of endothelial cells is induced by the cytokines IL-1β and TNF-α. They enable endothelium to recruit leukocytes actively and nonselectively (neurtrophils, eosinophils, mononuclear cells, and basophils). GCs are effective and potent inhibitors of TNF-alpha and IL-1 release from macrophages, monoctyes, and other infiltrating cells. Second class of cytokines that selectively activate the endothelium – IL-4 & IL-13, two cytokines associated with allergic diseases. Inhibit plasma exudation from postcapillary venules at inflammatory sites. Delayed effect suggesting gene transcription & protein syntheses are involved: synthesis of vasocortin. GGs also stabilize lysosomal membranes -> inhibiting lysosomal enzyme release which prevents the sequestration of water intracellularly and swelling and destruction of cells. They inhibit leukocyte accumulation and complement-induced polymorphonuclear neutrophil (PMN) aggregation and ↓ PMN chemotaxis, T-cell and B-cell proliferation and the differentiation of macrophages. GGs also suppress spontaneous ectopic neural discharge originating in experimental neuromas prevent the later development of ectopic impulse discharge in freshly cut nerves. Effect appears to be mediated by a direct membrane-stabilizing action
rather than an antinflammatory action. Topical application of methylprednisolone noted to block transmission of C-fibers but not the A-beta fibers

Sorry I was bored
 
No ESI. Lyrica or gabapentin. Yes to EMG. Weight restrictions. Sx is the condition worsens.

what weight restrictions? How much ? For how long?

I know a lot of people quote 25lbs. But where'd they get this number and how do you know how long to do this?
 
i agree. i would not have thought twice about doing it. I think it is TOTALLY reasonable to help with her pain, and her weakness.

I don't get why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch.
The patient meets several criteria for ESI.

1-paresthesias indicating radicular component to symptoms
2-Significant anatomic pathology with neurologic deficit, (picking up mild arm weakness on clinical exam is its own art form)
3-chronic symptoms that are unlikely to improve without physician intervention

CESI is perfectly reasonable, (with an appropriate explanation of risks and potential benefits)
Can you guarantee her strength will improve after ESI? No.
Do I see it happen all the time? Yes!

This is 10X more justified than all the BS epidurals I see the local yokels do for axial spine pain.

EMG is unlikely to isolate level without painful symptoms. Also less useful to decrease costs, than just doing the damn epidural. Better to do ESI, than just let her go straight to ACDF. Do you think a surgeon will see all that and not operate?
 
Here ya go Epidural man:

Steroids bind to cytoplasmic GC receptors within target cells -> DNA binding proteins
Hormone binding site & DNA binding site are expressed in almost every type of cell
The inactive GR is bound to a large protein complex and folded into a conformation that Is optimal for binding and prevents the unoccupied receptor from entering the nucleus.
Once GC binds, GR complex dissociates & activated GC translocates to the nucleus -> binds to DNA at GC response elements (GREs) in the promoter sequences of target genes->GR expression regulates at transcriptional, translational, or post-translational levels. This mechanism appears to account for the effect of steroids on the transcription of collagenase. Collagenase transcription is induced by tumor necrosis factor a (TNFa) and phorbol esters, which activate apoprotein-1. The GR complex binds AP-1, forming a protein-protein complex and causing mutual repression of DNA binding. In another possible mechanism of inhibition of gene transcription, the GR enhances the transcription of specific ribonucleases that break down mRNA. Steroid administration blocks cytokine effects. Cytokines promotes prolonged eosinophil survival, increased adhesion molecule expression, potentiated eosinophil degranulation, and movement of eosinophils across and endothelial barrier leading to programmed cell death, or apoptosis. Expansion in the number of circulating neutrophils secondary to decreased adherence to vascular endothelium (demargination) and stimulation of bone marrow production. GCs interefere with T-cell mediated immunity. They inhibit production of T lymphocytes by downregulating T-cell growth factors IL-1B and IL-2, and inhibit the release of various T-lymphocyte cytokines. Potently inhibit inducible form of NOS in macrophages, and prevents the induction of NOS expression by endotoxin. (Cytokines induce nitric oxide synthase (NOS), -> ↑’d nitric oxide production -> NO increases plasma exudation in inflammatory sites)
Adhesion Moleculesfacilitate trafficking of inflammatory cells to sites of inflammation
The expression of the adhesion molecules E-selectin, P-selectin, and intracellular adhesion molecule-1 on the surface of endothelial cells is induced by the cytokines IL-1β and TNF-α. They enable endothelium to recruit leukocytes actively and nonselectively (neurtrophils, eosinophils, mononuclear cells, and basophils). GCs are effective and potent inhibitors of TNF-alpha and IL-1 release from macrophages, monoctyes, and other infiltrating cells. Second class of cytokines that selectively activate the endothelium – IL-4 & IL-13, two cytokines associated with allergic diseases. Inhibit plasma exudation from postcapillary venules at inflammatory sites. Delayed effect suggesting gene transcription & protein syntheses are involved: synthesis of vasocortin. GGs also stabilize lysosomal membranes -> inhibiting lysosomal enzyme release which prevents the sequestration of water intracellularly and swelling and destruction of cells. They inhibit leukocyte accumulation and complement-induced polymorphonuclear neutrophil (PMN) aggregation and ↓ PMN chemotaxis, T-cell and B-cell proliferation and the differentiation of macrophages. GGs also suppress spontaneous ectopic neural discharge originating in experimental neuromas prevent the later development of ectopic impulse discharge in freshly cut nerves. Effect appears to be mediated by a direct membrane-stabilizing action
rather than an antinflammatory action. Topical application of methylprednisolone noted to block transmission of C-fibers but not the A-beta fibers

Sorry I was bored

Ha! Love it.:laugh:
 
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