Chair of ASIPP Academic Task Force Teaching Interventional Course Open To CRNAs

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Aether2000

Aether2000

algosdoc
Verified Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
4,273
Reaction score
2,348
Members do not see this ad.
Here is an unfortunate example of a pain physician that has elected to ignore the ASIPP, ISIS, AMA, and many other medical organizations position statements that interventional pain is the practice of medicine. He is teaching an American Academy of Pain Management Interventional Cadaver Course September 21, 2010 that admits CRNAs (I personally contacted the organization and checked).
http://www.aapainmanage.org/conference/21stAnnual/course_descriptions.html
From their brochure about the course: "Interventional Treatments for Pain, offsite cadaver course 8am-4pm. This intensive course, consisting of both didactic presentations and hands-on components using cadavers, will cover interventional treatments for pain. Section 1 (basic, morning) will discuss several techniques of the thoracolumbar spine, including epidural steroid injections (ESIs), facet joint injections, and sacroiliac joint injections. Section 2 (intermediate, afternoon) will explore more advanced techniques of the cervicothoracolumbar spine, including interlaminar cervical ESIs, transforaminal ESIs, and radiofrequency lesioning of the medial branch nerves and dorsal root ganglion. Participants will have an opportunity to practice these procedures under supervision and guidance.
Objectives: Upon completion of this program, participants will be able to:

Discuss the indications for various interventional spine techniques, including ESIs, facet joint injections, and radiofrequency ablation.
Outline the potential complications associated with interventional spine techniques.
Perform different interventional spine techniques.
Demonstrate how to best position the fluoroscope for effective imaging.
The course is being taught by Christian Gonzalez, MD.
So who is Christian Gonzalez? From their brochure: "Christian D. González, MD, is Director of Pain Medicine at the University of Massachusetts School of Medicine in Worcester. Dr. González completed an anesthesiology residency at Baylor College of Medicine, and then a pain medicine fellowship at Harvard Medical School-Massachusetts General Hospital. His research focuses on interventional spine techniques. Dr. González also the Chair of the Academic Taskforce for the American Society of Interventional Pain Physicians, and is a Board Member-at-Large for the Massachusetts Society of Interventional Pain Physicians. He has led multiple interventional workshops in the US and Latin America. Dr. González reports that he is a proctor for Medtronic, Inc.

When I emailed Dr Gonzalez pointing out CRNAs are welcome at this course and are using participation in these courses to gain credentialing in hospitals and ASCs to do interventional pain procedures, he responded:
"Anyone interested in attending the cadaver workshop of the AAPM is more than welcome. This does not only include CRNAs, but also anyone just wanting an experience of learning what it takes to perform these procedures.
The statement that you make about a certificate is incorrect. We do not
certify anyone that attends the workshop. The practitioners that want to
be certified need to look at other workshops in order to do so. We only
accredit CMEs, just like if you attend a meeting and sit on an 8 hour
lecture. No privileges will be granted at any hospital from this
workshop and it has never been granted in the past.
Christian Gonzalez, M.D., F.I.P.P
Division chief, Pain Medicine
University of Massachusetts"

It appears Dr Gonzalez believes it is acceptable to teach all comers these techniques including hands on interventional techniques using his "supervision and guidance". Does anyone else concur with his beliefs?
 
Greed combined with cowardice.

If he says a goal is to "Perform different interventional spine techniques" then he is implying that this course will be used for clinical application.

While he can state he has never authorized credentialing from his course, we all know people use those courses as ways to get credentialed. He is turning a blind eye to and actively participating in a practice that will be the undoing of his own field.

Then again, anyone associated with AAPManagement gets their status lower several notches for me.
 
Last edited:
Great. Anyone who observed the unraveling of anesthesia from the onslaught of CRNAs should take note of this. And now this idiot wants to teach mid-levels to do the same? Physicians are our own worse enemies. A gentle email to Dr. Gonzalez is in order.
 
i am familiar w/ this guy - he is recently out of fellowship... maybe has 1-2 years under his belt in private practice...

i am also going to let the folks at MGH know about this BS for training him to train CRNAs...
 
If anyone has his contact info or ASIPP contact info- I will make my feeling known as well
 
algosdoc said:
It is possible he is being duped into doing this....I will speak with him tonight...
Click to expand...

It will be a revealing test of his personal integrity. It is only by policing ourselves and rooting out the charlatans, sell-outs, churners, and quacks that our profession stands any chance of self-survival.

Otherwise, the Obama/Chou/Carragee/Berwick/The Back Letter contributors and the UK NICE committee will be happy to tell us how to practice medicine, who is qualified to do what we do, who has the appropriate scope of practice, etc...
 
C'mon ASIPP, do the right thing. Keep Pain the purview of medicine.

Hey Sleep- call your dad, or whoever you call your ASIPP god and tell them they are screwing up big time.
 
I spoke with him about all the issues involving teaching CRNAs interventional pain procedures. His position is that:
1. Only certificates of attendance for the course are being offered therefore the CRNAs are not being "certified".
2. He is under the impression these certificates of attendance will not be used by CRNAs to obtain privileges in hospitals or ASCs
3. He states this is indeed a hands on cadaver course and that 2 CRNAs so far have signed up for the September course
4. He states he wants to build bridges with organizations (the term he used for this organization is "AAPM")
5. He states that even if CRNAs do obtain training by him in interventional pain, he wants to use this opportunity to "track" the CRNAs to see what they do with this training afterwards.
6. He is aware of the positions of the AMA, ISIS, ASIPP, and other organizations on this subject but intends to teach the course anyway.
7. When told the respective Boards of ASIPP and ISIS will be notified of his plans to teach CRNAs, he stated he welcomed this and that the boards can follow with him the tracking of the CRNAs and their use of their interventional pain.
8. He states in Massachusetts, there are no CRNAs practicing interventional pain but that there probably are in other locations.
9. He states the American Academy of Pain Management does indeed have leadership composed of CRNAs that are extremely interested in expanding the scope of practice into interventional pain.

So..............it appears he was not duped, and knows exactly what he is doing. These positions are unfortunately quite contrary to the expressed position of ASIPP and it is ironic that a leader of ASIPP would be promoting CRNA training in interventional pain. I do not think this is any reflection on the Board of Directors of ASIPP since I am quite sure they are unaware of what is transpiring.
 
Thank you algos for posting the gist of the conversation.

It's more troubling than I thought. One, this person is knowingly and willingly engaging in an activity that is to the detriment of his own profession and has no qualms about it. Two, he's naive or stupid enough to think that CRNAs will not use the course to justify their capability in practicing medicine. Tracking? What the hell does that mean? Don't let them sign up and you don't need to track. Three, the myth of building bridges with CRNAs can be witnessed via the ashes that the ASA is reduced to everytime they try to engage with them. And lastly, it's disgusting that the leadership of AAPM would want CRNAs to expand into interventional pain and that the physicians in that organization would endorse it.

The dude is an anesthesiologist. Oh, this hurts.
 
algosdoc said:
I spoke with him about all the issues involving teaching CRNAs interventional pain procedures. His position is that:
1. Only certificates of attendance for the course are being offered therefore the CRNAs are not being "certified".
2. He is under the impression these certificates of attendance will not be used by CRNAs to obtain privileges in hospitals or ASCs
3. He states this is indeed a hands on cadaver course and that 2 CRNAs so far have signed up for the September course
4. He states he wants to build bridges with organizations (the term he used for this organization is "AAPM")
5. He states that even if CRNAs do obtain training by him in interventional pain, he wants to use this opportunity to "track" the CRNAs to see what they do with this training afterwards.
6. He is aware of the positions of the AMA, ISIS, ASIPP, and other organizations on this subject but intends to teach the course anyway.
7. When told the respective Boards of ASIPP and ISIS will be notified of his plans to teach CRNAs, he stated he welcomed this and that the boards can follow with him the tracking of the CRNAs and their use of their interventional pain.
8. He states in Massachusetts, there are no CRNAs practicing interventional pain but that there probably are in other locations.
9. He states the American Academy of Pain Management does indeed have leadership composed of CRNAs that are extremely interested in expanding the scope of practice into interventional pain.

So..............it appears he was not duped, and knows exactly what he is doing. These positions are unfortunately quite contrary to the expressed position of ASIPP and it is ironic that a leader of ASIPP would be promoting CRNA training in interventional pain. I do not think this is any reflection on the Board of Directors of ASIPP since I am quite sure they are unaware of what is transpiring.
Click to expand...

This is extremely unfortunate. If he thinks that CRNA's will not use their "certificates of attendance" as evidence of preceptored training, then he is wrong. He also underestimates the ability of credentialing committees to understand the difference.
 
algosdoc said:
I spoke with him about all the issues involving teaching CRNAs interventional pain procedures. His position is that:
1. Only certificates of attendance for the course are being offered therefore the CRNAs are not being "certified".
2. He is under the impression these certificates of attendance will not be used by CRNAs to obtain privileges in hospitals or ASCs
3. He states this is indeed a hands on cadaver course and that 2 CRNAs so far have signed up for the September course
4. He states he wants to build bridges with organizations (the term he used for this organization is "AAPM")
5. He states that even if CRNAs do obtain training by him in interventional pain, he wants to use this opportunity to "track" the CRNAs to see what they do with this training afterwards.
6. He is aware of the positions of the AMA, ISIS, ASIPP, and other organizations on this subject but intends to teach the course anyway.
7. When told the respective Boards of ASIPP and ISIS will be notified of his plans to teach CRNAs, he stated he welcomed this and that the boards can follow with him the tracking of the CRNAs and their use of their interventional pain.
8. He states in Massachusetts, there are no CRNAs practicing interventional pain but that there probably are in other locations.
9. He states the American Academy of Pain Management does indeed have leadership composed of CRNAs that are extremely interested in expanding the scope of practice into interventional pain.

So..............it appears he was not duped, and knows exactly what he is doing. These positions are unfortunately quite contrary to the expressed position of ASIPP and it is ironic that a leader of ASIPP would be promoting CRNA training in interventional pain. I do not think this is any reflection on the Board of Directors of ASIPP since I am quite sure they are unaware of what is transpiring.
Click to expand...

He needs to bounced out of ISIS and ASIPP right NOW.
Can someone let the ASA know what he is doing.
Can we file a brief with is medical board about his intentions.
If I saw him at a meeting, I'd rip him a new one until everyone stood up and made him leave. Please do the same.

And hey, yo Russo- any boyz in your hood that can clean this mess up?
 
What a disgrace. He should be booted out. This CRNA mess has plagued anesthesia for years and there should be ZERO tolerance for this in IPM.
 
docnyc said:
What a disgrace. He should be booted out. This CRNA mess has plagued anesthesia for years and there should be ZERO tolerance for this in IPM.
Click to expand...

This is so unfortunate. If CRNAs start using and abusing these interventional techniques then reimbursement may be cut further. Sure- kick him out of all the pain societies, he obviously wasn't listening to them anyway.

But better yet; hurt him where it really hurts- in his wallet...
 
Good luck with ASIPP. Lost all respect for them when the head off their Illinois contigent testified against my corporation in a med-mal case last year. (they lost) Heard from another pain doc the head honcho also is not above doing this also.
 
lobelsteve said:
C'mon ASIPP, do the right thing. Keep Pain the purview of medicine.

Hey Sleep- call your dad, or whoever you call your ASIPP god and tell them they are screwing up big time.
Click to expand...

Hey buddy

I cmpletely agree, this is ridiculous! I dont think too many people were aware of this. Hey I like ASIPP, I think they do go to bat for us. I'm definitely going to email people over there. This guy really shouldnt be teaching CRNAs.
Believe me, I dont think people at ASIPP would approve of this (disclaimer, I'm not a board member or hold a position on it). I'm with you guys in an email or signing a petition to whoever (med board) you guys think needs to know about this.👍

Physicians should be the only one using any type of device near the spine,etc.

P.S. While I think Algos may have made the fact that he is an member of a certain oganization clear to everyone, possibly trying to smear the organization, I'll withhold my reservation. The bottom line is regardless of what organization he belongs to, it's wrong. He could also be a member of ISIS, as well. Regardless, nice job bringing this to our attention.

By the way, on a different note, AAPM seems to give those initials out to CRNAS! Recently in an article about CRNAs and anesthesia, a quote was taken from a CRNA, with the initials "FAAPM". That's also unbelieveable.

What's the game plan to prevent non physicians to attending this workshop? Tenesma, I dont think an email/call to Rathmell will help much since this guy is now in pratice. What other options are there?
 
Last edited:
this guy is pathetic!!!!! we need to all band together and stop this. Who "tracks" CRNAs? for what? it's like playing with fire. seriously. THis guy is a frickin *****.

I have an idea. let me teach you something, and see what you do with it. just to see what happens. just so i can "track" you. cuz it's not like he has anything else to do with his time being the bigshot director of some pain department at UMass. maybe we can teach you how to intubate, start IV's, and push a few drugs in the OR.... you know, just to see what you do with it. but i doubt you'll get credentialed in it. oh wait. that's what a CRNA is. i forgot.

and history repeats itself. he's making 5k off this, but ruining the future of interventional pain medicine. WTF.

let's all use our individual resources to stop this before September!!!!

and thanks to the OP for posting this. we need more awareness about this type of thing so we can put the flame out before it becomes a forest fire!
 
Some perspectives:

-First, it may be better to distinguish between AAPManagement and AAPMedicine, the latter of which is an organization held in esteem while the former trades on its phonetical similarity and is of ill repute

-We should contact our Medtronic reps, and ask them to push this up their chain, and get back to us about what their higher ups said about him continuing to be a proctor. They should also not allow anyone to "proctor" who engages in such activities

-I think a call from Rathmell would have influence...I will PM Midline

-See previous threads regarding CRNAs in New Hampshire implanting pumps and stims

-the "tracking" argument is BS

-Steve, what perspectives would you convey in the letter to the Mass medical board?

-Algos, please PM me with his email as well. I think if he gets a number of emails from us it will continue the pressure
 
Who does he use for SCS?

If it is St. Jude, I will request St. Jude stop selling him. If they do not, I will change vendors.


If we find out who he uses, and all do the same, we can cut him off from SCS by boycotting the company he chooses.

From a medical board standpoint- he is acting in an unprofessional manner and betraying his fellow physicians.

Who refers patients to him? We can generate a letter detailing his activity and mail it his surgeons and PCP's. There are other pain docs in his area.
 
The headline I used was intended to spur ASIPP to clean up their own house. I fully believe they will do so once they become aware, but if they do not, then it speaks volumes about the organization. It is one thing to have an ASIPP member teaching CRNAs but quite another having a person placed in a leadership role at ASIPP teaching CRNAs interventional pain techniques and defending his stance in doing so. If this goes unchallenged by the organization then it becomes a tacit acceptance of this unfortunate situation and sets a precident for the future. The irony is that no organization has fought harder against the inappropriate incursion of CRNAs into interventional pain. Their fight against the inappropriate incursion of CRNAs into the practice of pain medicine in Louisiana was laudable and they joined many other individuals in that fight. They have made an occasional error in judgement regarding CRNAs but ultimately reach the correct conclusion. When ASIPP made a faux pas in the past planning to grant certificates to CRNAs for fluoroscopy, they wisely backed off after the fact was made public on this forum. They quickly changed their web brochure wording to reflect their revised position with nary a word about the change, and it invoked years of antipathy that continues even today. But because their error was pointed out to them before it occurred, they ultimately did the right thing. I am hopeful they will take the appropriate action in this situation also. The doctor in question does not have membership in ISIS, therefore no action is possible via that organization.
When one begins their career in pain medicine, it is natural they would want to serve as an educator, and because of naivite can be lulled into teaching non-physicians. In the past, prior to organized pain medicine societies recognizing the threat created by training non-physicians, I too was guilty of involvement with organizations that would accept a few non-physicians in training but I worked diligently from within the organization to eradicate this practice. However, what I found is that the leadership of such organizations, due to legal egalitarian arguments or a more sinister motive of scope of practice expansion, will ultimately succumb to relaxation of standards, and will accept virtually anyone with an interest in interventional pain. This is especially true from organizations that have non-physicians making up a significant part of their board of directors. Their erroneous position that it is ok to train non-physicians since they cannot get privileges in a hospital to do these procedures anyway is not only naive but fails to account for the fact that non-physicians may be doing these procedures in an ASC they personally own or in an office setting without direct supervision or under the "supervision" of a radiologist located at the other end of the hospital. Ultimately there is no "supervision" and in effect, non-physicians have expanded their scope of practice into the practice of medicine. It is therefore important we remain vigilant to physicians who are either naive or doggedly determined to teach non-physicians these potentially lethal or permanently injurious techniques. We also must be vigilant regarding who is accepted as a member in our organizations. Does the organization to which you belong accept non-physician members? Do these non-physicians have the capacity to serve on committees of the organization? Is it possible for non-members to hold office? If interventional pain medicine is the practice of medicine, then opening the door, even a crack for non-physicians to hold membership in our pain societies, is sometimes enough. The non-physicians will advertise themselves as members of our pain societies and will use this on their letterheads. We must remain vigilant and true to the cause.
 
Last edited:
What I cannot figure out is what is in it for him? Why do this unless you are planning on building a business in teaching CRNAs?
 
a few guesses

1) maybe since he is new in practice and he has a lot of competition - he needs the cash?
2) maybe he is planning on using the CRNAs at his hospital to do the procedures for him so that he doesn't have to get exposed to the radiation?
3) maybe this is a long-term strategy to teach mid-levels --- thank you obamacare
4) maybe they couldn't sign up enough physicians for the course? and they want some space fillers to help cover the costs
5) maybe there is some pressure from AAPmgmt to be "more inclusive" of all specialties, and the next course will be open to chiropractors, naturopaths and veterinarians?

What i dont' get is his thought-process that CRNAs will PAY to take a course they will not be able to use to their benefit?

hmmmm.... i will pay $2,000 to take a course in Cosmetic Botox --- but I swear, i am just doing this to better "understand" cosmetic botox - and I will never try to perform Cosmetic Botox even though i would have a "certificate of attendance" and the newly gained "knowledge"

bull crap
 
Professional organizations can only go so far. They too are mired are in their own politics and intra-personal agendas.

But, as *TRUE* professionals in our trade, we can clean our own house. If we see a colleague engaging in unethical or dangerous behavior, we can use our personal relationships to influence him or her. I wonder if Dr. Gonzalez's Department Chair is aware of this and does that person support him?

Someone, somewhere, can be very influential in changing this situation. We just need to connect the dots.
 
This is outrageous....im not a member of ASIPP or AAPM(anymore) and ill let my membership dollars do a little talking. Any fax numbers of Dept Heads or email petition letters....you can count me in.
 
The chairman of the department where Christian Gonzalez works can be emailed at [email protected].

He seemed very receptive to my email.
 
Dear Dr. Lobel: Thank you for making me aware of this situation. I will follow up with Dr. Gonzalez.

Sincerely,


Stephen O. Heard, M.D.

Just heard back.

Prompt, courteous, professional. I hope he can assist the cause of all of pain medicine by not training nurses to replace us.
 
lobelsteve said:
Dear Dr. Lobel: Thank you for making me aware of this situation. I will follow up with Dr. Gonzalez.

Sincerely,


Stephen O. Heard, M.D.

Just heard back.

Prompt, courteous, professional. I hope he can assist the cause of all of pain medicine by not training nurses to replace us.
Click to expand...

I dunno about you but I know that I'm irreplaceable. 😀
 
i emailed Dr Heard as well
 
guys please email the ASIPP presidents in your respective states. Go to ASIPPs website and look unders state societies. Urge them to put pressure on this Dr Gonzalez .
 
Dr. Gonzalez is a friend of mine. I am a little shocked he would be willing to teach pain procedures to non-physicians.
 
Lumbago said:
Dr. Gonzalez is a friend of mine. I am a little shocked he would be willing to teach pain procedures to non-physicians.
Click to expand...

now you are screwed....i was going to associate myself with him too by saying i went to Baylor, so ill go down with you a little(i dont know him)
 
I do know Dr. Gonzalez and I informed him of this thread. Here is his unedited email response:



"Well, this guy is a total unprofessional. Algos whatever guy, his real name is Dr XXXX XXXXX . He represents ISIS which I hope once they have look into his behavior will confront him about it.

When someone is interested in the workshop this is what it is stated: This course is for educational purposes only. It does not prepare or authorize you to practice these proecedures.
If he thinks that this is certifying anyone, he must show the facts and not allegde anything. We have never certified anyone, we do not plan to certify anyone, this includes CRNAs, PhDs, DO s, MDs, OD s and anyone else.
Please post this if you can stating that you spoke with me.
Christian Gonzalez, M.D., F.I.P.P "


This was then my email response:

Christian, I'll be happy to post this if you like, but I can guarantee it will stir things up more than it settles it down. You'd be more likely to receive emails, phone calls, and draw attention. For what its worth "Algosdoc" is pretty well respected in the pain community and generally a really good guy.

Let me know if you would like me to post your response.


And his f/u email:

"Please post it. And please place on it that the decision from ASIPP, ASA and the AAPM (management) has been made to change the certification to physicians only. "
 
Last edited:
bottom line it doesnt matter if it is certification for physicians only....

if it were for physician certification only then WHY allow CRNAs to be present for the cadaver workshop?

and he is confusing me --- in one statement he states "we do not plan to certify anyone" as this is "for educational purposes only".... and then the last statement "certification for physicians only"

he can takes his FIPP and shove it.
 
The issue is training CRNAs period. We are well beyond the stage where organized medicine, includine ASIPP, is tolerant of training CRNAs to do interventional pain procedures. He either doesn't understand the impact this will have or doesn't care, and wants to use this as his own personal "experiment". As for unprofessional, I think contacting him by email with my concerns, only to be blown off was as far as anyone needs to go before making public his intentions. The ASIPP board of directors has been notified, now lets see what they say. We await the action of those that gave him the appointment as head of the academic task force for ASIPP.
 
Christian was a classmate of mine at Baylor COM for anesthesia and has been a close friend of mine since internship. We interviewed together for pain, have spent countless hours together as friends in Houston, and speak occasionally over the phone even now (3 yrs post-fellowship).

He invited me to join him as an instructor for these courses. He seemed convinced that it would be financially beneficial for him (and me) to proctor these weekend warrior courses. I reminded him that only a few short years ago as residents, we abhorred the training that our anesthesiology department at Baylor provided CRNA students in peripheral nerve blocks. We both agreed that there should be a licensing or scope of practice limitation on what non-MDs can do. We even agreed that non-anesthesiologists should be restrained from providing general anesthetics (propofol by GI, TIVA by oral surgeons, plastic surgeons, etc). We both felt like our specialty had "given away the farm." This was one of the reasons that we both were attracted to Pain. Surely, no nurse could be qualified or insured to perform such invasive procedures. It seemed like a subspecialty protected from CRNA encroachment.

I expressed to him my concerns about teaching non-fellowship trained physicians to perform IPM procedures. He does have a valid point that a one to two day course does not make pain physicians. Think of how many non-fellowship trained anesthesiologists out there learned how to do IPM procedures by reading Fenton and Waldon. Does their skill compare to mine? No. Is it unethical for them to expand their skill set and scope of practice in such a way? Not necessarily. Would you want to be their first cervical SCS trial patient? Ummm.....


It is an insult to our own work and achievement to think that any person can obtain the necessary skill to do what we do in a weekend. Is that the goal of the courses Christian teaches? The answer is unequivocally NO. So what is more concerning to the group? The fact that nurse anesthetists are able to attend a workshop that by design does not provide the skill set needed to be competent and proficient, OR that we are losing the war against non-physician medical practice?

Personally, I am disturbed and offended by non-fellowship trained physicians pushing their limits of skill and knowledge without proper oversight and training. Their patients certainly don't know that they are "lab rats." I know many skilled CRNAs with excellent clinical judgments, and many MD's that I wouldn't let treat a hamster. Truth is, neither group should be able to obtain malpractice insurance for procedures that they cannot document proper training for. Most any hospital in the US will let a general anesthesiologist do pain without additional training. Most malpractice carriers will insure the general anesthesiologist to perform IPM procedures without fellowship training or board certification. Most state legislators see little justification and much litigious risk in limiting scope of practice for any group of practitioners.

All this being said, I will agree that it is a poor personal choice for a properly trained physician to participate in an activity that MAY provide students (MD or CRNA) with a false sense of skill that MAY put patients at risk but DEFINITELY undermines a subspecialty of the practice of medicine that we all bust ass to protect. I have chosen not to involve myself with these courses.

If we really want to protect our specialty, we must protect ourselves and the American population from unskilled providers. That includes nurses and physicians. Truth is, we have NO WAY TO DO THIS. Any MD can buy a C-arm and start poking patients. The US is full of greedy anesthesiologists looking for a cheap needle-monkey (ie - a CRNA or AA or PA).

Christian is a good man, great father, excellent physician, and friend. I think it is an ethical dilemma to proctor these workshops, but the real ethical dilemma is when the newly "trained" practitioner decides to put his or her skill to the test on a trusting human being called "patient."
 
This Christian Gonzalez seems dense. At issue is not whether or not a certificate is manufactured at the course. And even if one is "certified" by sticking needles into cadavers, that certificate is worthless anyway. The crux of the matter is that non-physicians are allowed to participate and then use it as bona fides to practice medicine. Is this outside the realm of possiblities or somehow unfathomable? What a *****.
 
Why would a CRNA pay $1250 + airfare + hotel + time off work to take a course just to be educated about procedures? Why if they don't want the skillset to actually PERFORM the procedures would they not just go to the conference and sit through lectures about the procedure or watch physicians perform the procedures? Why do they need the hands-on cadaver portion of the lab?

I think it's fine to have CRNAs sit through pretty slides of pictures of procedures or allowing them to observe physicians performing the procedures but to allow them hands-on training means the instructors will be teaching hands-on skills. Physicians take weekend courses then go back and start performing procedures all the time. It's not right, but it happens. Sure, we need to police ourselves and discourage that behavior but allowing non-physicians to do this takes things to an entirely different level.

Would the instructors feel comfortable bringing their children, mother, loved one to the course, set them up on a table next to the cadaver and allow their students to perform one on the cadaver then one on their loved ones? I think not. And that is essentially what they are allowing people to do when they teach these weekend courses to non-qualified individuals (not just CRNAs).

I see nothing wrong with pain fellows taking these courses and getting the hands-on experience. If a new pain doc wants to brush up on his/her skills or learn a new way of performing the procedure, that's fine too.

From their info:
This course is for educational purposes only. It does not prepare or authorize you to practice these proecedures. This "disclaimer" does not change the way I feel about this course

Objectives:
Upon completion of this program, participants will be able to:

Discuss the indications for various interventional spine techniques, including ESIs, facet joint injections, and radiofrequency ablation.
Outline the potential complications associated with interventional spine techniques.
Perform different interventional spine techniques. this seems like a contradiction - the course does not prepare you to practice these procedures yet - upon completion of the program, participants will be able to perform different interventional spine techniques?

BTW - Did anyone contact Medtronic??
 
lobelsteve said:
Just emailed him.
Click to expand...

I can relay to you all this much info only on here. Other information has to be discussed in the Private Forum (if Algos, and others would let me in!😎.

The authorities at ASIPP were contacted. Lax personally attended to this matter. It was discovered that there is no "ASIPP task force" that Dr. Gonzales was Chair of currently. It doesnt exist! He was asked to remove this title as it is misrepresentation. He was told by Lax about the inappropriateness of what he was doing and the threat to patients that this created. I can assure you that NO one in ASIPP approved this or took this lightly.

Since then, Dr. Gonzales has stated he will NOT be teaching this course to ANY CRNAs. If he has this course for MD/DOs, tht's his business.

In all honestly, I was very impressed with how quickly Dr. Lax resolved this. Algos, thanks for bringing it up. Believe me, I think ASIPP is certainly very concerned about patient safety and making certain ONLY physicians are involved with interventional pain medicine. I think we all need to be vigilant and in the future if matters like this are discovered by ANYONE, we all need to work together to aggressively resolve it.

Hey steve, looks like daddy did something about it:laugh: 👍
 
Most excellent! Good job everyone and thank you Lax and ASIPP. We will continue to monitor the outcome of the situation.
 
SleepIsGood said:
I can relay to you all this much info only on here. Other information has to be discussed in the Private Forum (if Algos, and others would let me in!😎.

The authorities at ASIPP were contacted. Lax personally attended to this matter. It was discovered that there is no "ASIPP task force" that Dr. Gonzales was Chair of currently. It doesnt exist! He was asked to remove this title as it is misrepresentation. He was told by Lax about the inappropriateness of what he was doing and the threat to patients that this created. I can assure you that NO one in ASIPP approved this or took this lightly.

Since then, Dr. Gonzales has stated he will NOT be teaching this course to ANY CRNAs. If he has this course for MD/DOs, tht's his business.

In all honestly, I was very impressed with how quickly Dr. Lax resolved this. Algos, thanks for bringing it up. Believe me, I think ASIPP is certainly very concerned about patient safety and making certain ONLY physicians are involved with interventional pain medicine. I think we all need to be vigilant and in the future if matters like this are discovered by ANYONE, we all need to work together to aggressively resolve it.
Click to expand...

But sleep, now we cannot say you are good for nothin'. 👍👍👍👍👍

Kudos man, kudos.
Buying you a round at the next GTG.
 
The authorities at ASIPP were contacted. Lax personally attended to this matter. It was discovered that there is no "ASIPP task force" that Dr. Gonzales was Chair of currently. It doesnt exist! He was asked to remove this title as it is misrepresentation.



wow...so that was made up?
 
wow what a poser....great job. For the record, i never received a reply to my emails so im guessing he was bombarded with emails and stopped responding.
 
aside from the obvious issues of teaching CRNAs to do procedures or whatever... did you guys see the schedule/syllabus for this "course."

uggh. i would rather go to a conference on heart failure. 1) it is at least tought by MDs and 2) has about equal relevence to my practice...

these people are just teaching another generation of "health care providers" to take advantage of and create monsters out of the weak-minded, coping-challenged patients with "pain"
 
am I worthy enough for the PrivateForum yet? :laugh:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
CRNAs are coming for your job
Replies
10
Views
2K
Malayil
M
bk03
Orthopedic Surgery vs Interventional Pain
2
Replies
82
Views
6K
sdnuser001
S
S
sacral insufficiency fracture interventional tx
Replies
14
Views
2K
BobBarker
BobBarker
T
Non-interventional vs Interventional Pain
Replies
37
Views
4K
SeniorWrangler
SeniorWrangler
Agast
Fellow of the American Society of Interventional Pain Physicans
Replies
4
Views
1K
Doctodd
D
Top