chances at integrated vascular

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greatsaphenousv

greatsaphenousv

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Hi everybody,
I had a question to which I was hoping I could get more insight. I was born and raised in the US, and after 12th grade completing high school in the US, I went to University of Manchester medical school for the 6 year medical program. University of Manchester is ranked the 34th best medical school in the world, according to QS World University Rankings for medicine (http://www.topuniversities.com/univ...ings/life-science-biomedicine/medicine?page=1). I got a USMLE Step 1 of 257, and a Step 2 CK of 253. I still need to take my Step 2 CS which I will next month. In addition between my 5th year and 6th year, I decided to take one year off and do vascular surgery research with my school department, and got 4 publications in it that year. I am now entering my final year, and am in the midst of applying to "integrated vascular surgery residency programs" as well as general surgery residency programs.

I wanted your opinions on my chances of matching at a integrated vascular surgery residency program. I will apply to each and every one, and I am ready to go anywhere. And what about General Surgery, and is there any general surgery programs I should look at in specific which have a good fellowship placement into Vascular Surgery. My home state of South Carolina, has no integrated vascular surgery residency programs. Thank you all.
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I think MUSC has a vascular program, as one of my classmates matched there. I think your chances of matching integrated VS are extremely low, though.
 
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drizzt3117 said:
I think MUSC has a vascular program, as one of my classmates matched there. I think your chances of matching integrated VS are extremely low, though.
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Oh yes you're right! I basically have now collected all letters of recommendations and transcripts and am filling out my ERAS application. Would it help to contact the residency PD beforehand?

I understand that as a foreign graduate I am at a disadvantage when applying to the integrated vascular programs. But will my application be even looked at because my step scores and research really show my dedication for vascular. And I'm starting to miss my family, and so want to return back to the US

I am looking at USF, university of wisconsin, the 3 ohio programs, all 5 NY programs, MUSC, and everything basically except California. I am also applying to General Surgery categorical positions. Would you have recommendations on good programs, that place their residents into vascular fellowship. From my attendings here at Manchester, I have heard from the department that vascular surgery fellowships are very difficult to obtain in the US after doing a general surgery residency. Is that true?
 
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The problem is that there's too few spots for VS. I'd apply to a lot of gsurg programs. My understanding is that if you want VS after GS you can usually get it. One of the GS grads from the community program where I'm doing TY just matched VS at a top program, fwiw.
 
The first thing is, I would review this presentation by Makaroun the PD from Pitt about last year's vascular surgery match: http://www.vascularweb.org/APDVS/Do...eting Presentations/9 Makaroun APDVS 2012.pdf

That gives you the relavent statistics. The reality is that 90%+ of spots have historically been taken by US Seniors. From a stats perspective Vascular Surgery residents tend to be the equivalent to the applicants who interview at the top GS programs. This will not be an issue for you given your stated stats. Of the 41 people who matched VS last year, I know about 35 of them from the interview trail. From a research, scores etc, you would be above average, assuming your clinical grades and LOR are decent. Your uphill battle is going to be being a foreign medical graduate.

I would say that you have a shot at an integrated VS spot. There were a handful of international grads at my interviews. 3 of the 4 current vascular fellows at my program are foreign medical graduates (they all did GS first). I would definitely encourage you to apply to the integrated programs, but at the same time caution you to be realistic. Even for US grads, I only know 1 person on the interview trail that ONLY applied Vascular Surgery. I'm sure there were others, but the rest of us interviewed at both GS and VS. The top of my match list went 1) VS, 2) VS, 3) GS, 4) VS, 5) GS.

Something that will go in your favor are the number of programs opening this year. There were 36 slots at the beginning of the interview cycle last year, ended up being 41. This year will likely be 50+ slots. That is 25% more slots than last year.

Shoot for the stars, just be realistic and apply broadly. Good luck 🙂
 
mimelim said:
The first thing is, I would review this presentation by Makaroun the PD from Pitt about last year's vascular surgery match: http://www.vascularweb.org/APDVS/Do...eting Presentations/9 Makaroun APDVS 2012.pdf

That gives you the relavent statistics. The reality is that 90%+ of spots have historically been taken by US Seniors. From a stats perspective Vascular Surgery residents tend to be the equivalent to the applicants who interview at the top GS programs. This will not be an issue for you given your stated stats. Of the 41 people who matched VS last year, I know about 35 of them from the interview trail. From a research, scores etc, you would be above average, assuming your clinical grades and LOR are decent. Your uphill battle is going to be being a foreign medical graduate.

I would say that you have a shot at an integrated VS spot. There were a handful of international grads at my interviews. 3 of the 4 current vascular fellows at my program are foreign medical graduates (they all did GS first). I would definitely encourage you to apply to the integrated programs, but at the same time caution you to be realistic. Even for US grads, I only know 1 person on the interview trail that ONLY applied Vascular Surgery. I'm sure there were others, but the rest of us interviewed at both GS and VS. The top of my match list went 1) VS, 2) VS, 3) GS, 4) VS, 5) GS.

Something that will go in your favor are the number of programs opening this year. There were 36 slots at the beginning of the interview cycle last year, ended up being 41. This year will likely be 50+ slots. That is 25% more slots than last year.

Shoot for the stars, just be realistic and apply broadly. Good luck 🙂
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Thank you for your advice and encouragement. I'm hoping Im fortunate enough to get interviews at vascular surgery programs. thanks again
 
out of the 41 matched, 38 of them were American Medical Graduates. what about the remaining 3? I am also hoping that being young will not be seen as being inexperienced. I have a lot of exposure to vascular surgery and I will clearly state this in my personal statement. My school in the UK is known for world class vascular surgery and is particularly known for VS in the UK. Many of the faculty have done visiting professorship lectures in the US and vice versa. I'm really hoping the PD's have heard of Manchester, and don't assume it to be some random X medical school abroad
 
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you could post this in the surgery forum as well to get more insight from people who have went through the process. Your app is impressive but the fact of the matter is that everything is much harder for IMG no matter the app.
 
greatsaphenousv said:
out of the 41 matched, 38 of them were American Medical Graduates. what about the remaining 3? I am also hoping that being young will not be seen as being inexperienced. I have a lot of exposure to vascular surgery and I will clearly state this in my personal statement. My school in the UK is known for world class vascular surgery and is particularly known for VS in the UK. Many of the faculty have done visiting professorship lectures in the US and vice versa. I'm really hoping the PD's have heard of Manchester, and don't assume it to be some random X medical school abroad
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It is hard to imagine the 3 IMG who matched last year all being as impressive or more impressive than the credentials that you have posted, which is why I think you have a reasonable enough of a shot to apply and simply see what happens.

The fact remains, IMGs face an uphill battle. It sucks, but that is the reality. Even GS is ~80% US graduates. But if you follow the basic rules of applying far and wide and taking nothing for granted, you stand a good chance of getting what you want. Be sure to apply to programs like UT-Southwestern that have a 4+2 program and take 13 residents a year and other GS programs with historically strong vascular programs.
 
I have an inner intuition that you will match into VS. And PD's I am sure will have heard of Univ. of Manchester as being a British school, so the stigma of being a FMG will be far less for you as compared to an average IMG because of the universal respect people have for British schools

But I want you to think about one thing. You need to ask yourself if you are ready for the demands, expectations, and dedication needed for doing residency in the US. While I am applying for IM, I have heard that you gotta be a go getter from day 1 and get ready to work in a fast paced environment for surgery especially. I can say that the US is much faster in pace, especially during residency, as compared to UK, so make sure you are mentally prepared to handle the challenge if you match, which I think you will based on your stats
 
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san2 said:
I have an inner intuition that you will match into VS. And PD's I am sure will have heard of Univ. of Manchester as being a British school, so the stigma of being a FMG will be far less for you as compared to an average IMG because of the universal respect people have for British schools

But I want you to think about one thing. You need to ask yourself if you are ready for the demands, expectations, and dedication needed for doing residency in the US. While I am applying for IM, I have heard that you gotta be a go getter from day 1 and get ready to work in a fast paced environment for surgery especially. I can say that the US is much faster in pace, especially during residency, as compared to UK, so make sure you are mentally prepared to handle the challenge if you match, which I think you will based on your stats
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Thank you all. San2, I have heard that US Surgery postgraduate training programs are much more intensive than English Surgery Programs. Also I will not be doing housemanship internship so I know I will be a little behind the curve when I first enter a surgery postgraduate position in the US, but I think I have enough exposure to not be totally clueless, and after the first few weeks I will be up to speed with the other residents. I will admit that those US medical students who match into surgery, are more ready than I am just because our clinical exposure is not as intensive as our American counterparts. If I do the housemanship internship, than I know I will be ready for anything, but my ultimate goal is to practice in the US close to my family with spending as little time as possible so Im going to bypass housemanship and just go ahead and apply to US surgery and VS programs. In addition, I will study a little before entering residency starts. I want to come back to my family. I miss them a lot, and traveling from the UK to US and back is just a hassle. Nothing beats mamma's good cooked home food 🙂 I'm really hoping I get MUSC. That will be a dream come true
 
I will say strictly knowledge wise, I think English and American graduates are at the same level when they enter surgery postgraduate positions as English surgery written and oral exams are very intense. But American graduates will have had more of an experience with practicals and getting in the dirty with hands on experience as compared to English medical graduates, and thats what the one to two year housemanship internship (hands on experience while getting paid) basically is after medical school graduation, which is required for all English med graduates planning to go into postgraduate positions in the UK.

I think developing the hands on experience and practical skills will take a few weeks once I enter in a surg residency program to reach on par with the other residents , but hope that it wont be any longer than that :luck:
 
greatsaphenousv said:
I will say strictly knowledge wise, I think English and American graduates are at the same level when they enter surgery postgraduate positions as English surgery written and oral exams are very intense. But American graduates will have had more of an experience with practicals and getting in the dirty with hands on experience as compared to English medical graduates, and thats what the one to two year housemanship internship (hands on experience while getting paid) basically is after medical school graduation, which is required for all English med graduates planning to go into postgraduate positions in the UK.

I think developing the hands on experience and practical skills will take a few weeks once I enter in a surg residency program to reach on par with the other residents , but hope that it wont be any longer than that :luck:
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Out of curiosity, why did you decide to go to the UK for med school after hs rather than going to a US undergrad?
Good luck and congrats on your successes! This is the fun part of applying and interviewing. I'm sure everyone on the interview trail will associate you as the British pup
 
san2 said:
Out of curiosity, why did you decide to go to the UK for med school after hs rather than going to a US undergrad?
Good luck and congrats on your successes! This is the fun part of applying and interviewing. I'm sure everyone on the interview trail will associate you as the British pup
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I am very glad I did. I wouldnt trade my experience at Manchester for anything else. It was a lot of studying, but not only studying.. aka Drinking age in the UK is 18 :laugh:
 
greatsaphenousv said:
I am very glad I did. I wouldnt trade my experience at Manchester for anything else. It was a lot of studying, but not only studying.. aka Drinking age in the UK is 18 :laugh:
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I would think of a better answer than that 😉 since PD's will surely ask you why you decided on going to Manchester for medical school after high school
 
they may even ask the dreaded, "why do you want to be a doctor" question :laugh:
 
Btw, if you end up interviewing here, I will be interviewing you, I was told to clear my schedule for all of our interview days. I'll be able to pick you out by your school XD. My opinion probably means very little, but whatever 😛
 
mimelim said:
Btw, if you end up interviewing here, I will be interviewing you, I was told to clear my schedule for all of our interview days. I'll be able to pick you out by your school XD. My opinion probably means very little, but whatever 😛
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Look forward to hopefully meeting you as well :luck:
 
hi there, im applying in vascular this year as a US grad, and i was talking to a residency program director at an integrated vasc program this year who told me that they would basically not offer any interviews to any foreign grads, (unfortunately on your end of course 🙁 ), because the vascular programs are all so new and having foreign grads apparently makes the approval process through the RRC (resid review committee) more tedious and that they just wanted to be 'safe' and 'dot all their i's and cross all their t's' (the exact words of the program director). i can see it would be possible but def an uphill battle. that said, good luck, hope to see you perchance on the interview trail. as with all my posts, take with a grain of salt (thus the username Perhaps 😀 ).
 
oh also to add on to last post, dont mean to scare anyone but last year the stats youre quoting, there were only about 85 applicants in vascular. This year there are over 300 for 40 spots, of which 200 are foreign grads (eeep!). That makes almost 2-3x the number of foreign grads trying to get into the probably 2-3 spots that will be granted to IMGs this year. I feel your pain since i have several family members that are IMGs and they are i believe like yourself excellent drs. however has been a tough road for sure. good luck nonetheless 👍
 
Perhaps said:
oh also to add on to last post, dont mean to scare anyone but last year the stats youre quoting, there were only about 85 applicants in vascular. This year there are over 300 for 40 spots, of which 200 are foreign grads (eeep!). That makes almost 2-3x the number of foreign grads trying to get into the probably 2-3 spots that will be granted to IMGs this year. I feel your pain since i have several family members that are IMGs and they are i believe like yourself excellent drs. however has been a tough road for sure. good luck nonetheless 👍
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Where are you getting your numbers from? Pitt had 82 applicants last year alone. Albeit most people applying VS apply to Pitt, but I'm wondering your sources...
 
Actually to correct myself, there were 200 applicants I believe, but 85 US grads. This is from the powerpoint above (match statistics of last year) in an earlier post, also charting outcomes of the match (from NRMP website) of two years ago shows some pretty similar stats.
 
Perhaps said:
Actually to correct myself, there were 200 applicants I believe, but 85 US grads. This is from the powerpoint above (match statistics of last year) in an earlier post, also charting outcomes of the match (from NRMP website) of two years ago shows some pretty similar stats.
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Charting the outcomes doesn't have Vascular Surgery residency statistics. On the entire 286 page document it uses the word "vascular" zero times.
 
mimelim said:
Charting the outcomes doesn't have Vascular Surgery residency statistics.
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NRMP Results and Data 2012 does though.

Table 1: 82 applicants (defined as those who submitted a rank list containing at least one VS program) for 41 slots. 55 of those were US seniors.

Table 2: 41/41 slots filled in the Match--38 US seniors, 1 DO, 2 non-US citizen IMGs.
 
K31 said:
NRMP Results and Data 2012 does though.

Table 1: 82 applicants (defined as those who submitted a rank list containing at least one VS program) for 41 slots. 55 of those were US seniors.

Table 2: 41/41 slots filled in the Match--38 US seniors, 1 DO, 2 non-US citizen IMGs.
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Yes, I know this data source 😛. I also was the one who linked the Pitt data from last year.

But he is using the term applicant to refer to the number of people submitting applications, not those who had at least one VS interview and ranked at least one program. I'm trying to find where the "85" for last year and the "300" for this year are coming from.
 
whats the difference why not just do general surgery and then a vascular fellowship? I know you save a few years by doing the integrated program but the other way atleast you'll be gen surg board certified in case vascular doesn't work out

What are the other integrated gen surg +fellowships (can someone list them ) I've heard of cardio-thoracic surg which is more competitive than vascular right?
 
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phd89 said:
whats the difference why not just do general surgery and then a vascular fellowship? I know you save a few years but atleast you'll be gen surg board certified in case vascular doesn't work out

What are the other integrated gen surg and fellowships (can someone list them if there are others ) I've heard of cardio-thoracic surg which is more competitive than vascular right?
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Uh wtf lol
 
The 300 is coming from a program director who I spoke to. There is no official source I have for this. But if theres a vascular residency prog at your institution I'd ask the program director as I was told by the program director 300, then another vascular faculty who participates in the process that indeed it was around 300 people.
Ive totally gotten the charting outcomes confused. There is a document I have somewhere that says the 2011 match statistics that I am thinking of however until I find it this will have to do --

http://www.vascularspecialistonline...y-match/90d34faf33f1d99f85ab0696464124f9.html
 
K31 said:
NRMP Results and Data 2012 does though.

Table 1: 82 applicants (defined as those who submitted a rank list containing at least one VS program) for 41 slots. 55 of those were US seniors.

Table 2: 41/41 slots filled in the Match--38 US seniors, 1 DO, 2 non-US citizen IMGs.
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yah this is partly what i was thinking of, thank you. 🙂 there is a book at our school that has all the match statistics compiled from NRMP and so sometimes i befuddle which things came from charting outcomes versus from nrmp versus from vascular web (svs).
 
I dont know if I'd feel comfortable saying as vascular is such a small world and if I did say it would probably be easy to find out who I am.... or what program I'm at. Anonymity important around this critical interview time...
 
OP, quick tell me which layer of mesoderm does the heart form from in embryology.
 
I can't get a read on integrated vascular competitiveness. I've heard/read everything from you have to be near the top of your class to its just slightly more competitive than gs. What would my chances be. i am middle tier US md, 233 step 1, so far mainly passes and high passes in 3rd year clerkships. Yet to do surgery rotation. Hoping to make some connections during surgery rotation and getting involved in some research throughout 3rd year.
 
I'm getting many categorical interviews for GS including Vanderbilt, Yale, and Baylor. However I have only gotten 1 interview for vascular surgery and thats in my home state of South Carolina. When should I start getting worried if I havent heard back from the other integrated vascular programs regarding interviews?

I have contacted the vascular surgery department here at my school in the UK but unfortunately I dont think they will make any calls on my behalf to the integrated vascular programs requesting to interview me. Other than having written me excellent LOR's, I think I'm in this myself when it comes through going to the match
 
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hey GSV, well i am sorry to hear about it but honestly a lot of integrated programs may not have started looking yet--i can't say that i know one way or another but this is all just conjecture. There is a thread going with vascular invites did you take a look at it? let me find the link and post it
 
heres the integrated vascular thread with interview dates and invites that people have gotten so far:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=953103

that said i wouldnt be discouraged, i have only gotten a grand total of one general surgery interview at this time and i applied to 15 programs soooooo im trying to keep perspective on the fact that surgery programs do also just review apps late. its kind of demoralizing as, yes, my medicine friends do have 15-20 interviews apiece (green w/ envy). as far as phone calls go, i think you had it right with asking your home institution. did you do an away here in the US At all? i think that would have been another good strategy, and then you could ask your attending here to make phone calls for you.
 
I didn't get a lot of invitations until late October/early November. I doubt our invitations have gone out yet as we aren't interviewing until late December. I got my last invitation to Northwestern until December 12th. Vascular invitations definitely are later than GS.
 
Perhaps said:
heres the integrated vascular thread with interview dates and invites that people have gotten so far:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=953103

that said i wouldnt be discouraged, i have only gotten a grand total of one general surgery interview at this time and i applied to 15 programs soooooo im trying to keep perspective on the fact that surgery programs do also just review apps late. its kind of demoralizing as, yes, my medicine friends do have 15-20 interviews apiece (green w/ envy). as far as phone calls go, i think you had it right with asking your home institution. did you do an away here in the US At all? i think that would have been another good strategy, and then you could ask your attending here to make phone calls for you.
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well well.. looking at this, and not hearing back from georgetown, siu, umich, wash u, case, and alleghany as others have all ready got invites, that sure doesnt forebode well for the future. MUSC gave me an interview, but I'm really hoping it was not just a courteous interview for being a SC resident. I'm really hoping they will look at me seriously.

I was able to do a visiting clerkship at the University of Washington with a professor of surgery there, who I actually got in touch with through one of my surgery professors at Manchester. Usually UW does not accept international students, regardless of where they come from, unless a faculty member is ready to sponsor them and I was fortunate to have this faculty member take the time to take me under his wings. They started an integrated vascular program there, and I know they have not sent interview invites for that yet as that I believe is going to be released end of November so Im really hoping I get a chance at their integrated vascular program. The GS program at UW is heavily recruiting me, but I think for GS I'd rather stay on the East Coast close to home such as Vanderbilt. But other than this experience, I dont have any US experience other than the occasional shadowing at the local hospital in Columbia, SC where my parents live.

I have gotten A LOT of vascular surgery experience here in the UK along with a lot of research experiences, but I'm hoping it translates to US experience. Healthcare wise, the UK is on par with the US, so I'm really hoping the lack of clinical experience in the US will not scare away PD's.
 
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Perhaps said:
heres the integrated vascular thread with interview dates and invites that people have gotten so far:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=953103

that said i wouldnt be discouraged, i have only gotten a grand total of one general surgery interview at this time and i applied to 15 programs soooooo im trying to keep perspective on the fact that surgery programs do also just review apps late. its kind of demoralizing as, yes, my medicine friends do have 15-20 interviews apiece (green w/ envy). as far as phone calls go, i think you had it right with asking your home institution. did you do an away here in the US At all? i think that would have been another good strategy, and then you could ask your attending here to make phone calls for you.
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Would you mind sharing some which GS programs you applied to? If not, I totally understand.

While at first I was really excited and surprised getting an interview from Yale, as soon as I start investigating more about the program, rumors have it that it is a malignant program =(. That prob explains a lot about why I got an interview there lol. Pleased though with Vanderbilt and Baylor and heard they are excellent GS programs...
 
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AND I JUST GOT MY SECOND INTERVIEW FOR VS AT MAYOOOOOOOO. maybe SDN is a good luck charm
 
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