Chances at MD/PhD admission!

[BananaPancake12]

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Hey guys,

I originally posted in another forum, so excuse the repeat.

I just got my score back from taking my first mcat (5-12-12 exam) and this was my outcome:

11V
8P
10B
29M

This was my first time taking it, and only had a chance to study for it for little less than a month. I went to a pretty good state school, and graduated lat december with a 3.81GPA, majored in Microbiology and enough shadowing, etc.

I've done long term research (same lab) for 2.5 years, and a summer internship at an ivy league school (although i'm not sure this really matters). I'm on a published paper, with 2 others submitted for review. attended conferences, presented at a few (but for undergrad students), and I'm currently doing research at a top 20 school as well for this year.

I definitely am planning to retake in late july (currently looking for seats near me!), but I'm also really worried, because I'm working full time, and am not sure if that stamina to study/practice again will be there...and am also a little let down.

I'm realistic and would like to go to a good mid-tier school, and I'm thinking of submitting my app early (as its ready now), with my retake intention indicated on the amcas. Is this reasonable?

Please, any advice on where to go from here would be great. thanks

 

[BananaPancake12]

anyone??

 

[StIGMA]

Hey guys,

I'm also really worried, because I'm working full time, and am not sure if that stamina to study/practice again will be there...and am also a little let down.

I'm realistic and would like to go to a good mid-tier school, and I'm thinking of submitting my app early (as its ready now), with my retake intention indicated on the amcas. Is this reasonable?

First, relax. I was in a similar situation as you and ended up at a top 10 school. I took my first MCAT in May, scored around where you did, and re-took in in July and scored in the 'excellent' range. If I had remained in the 28-30 MCAT range, I would have not made it into as good of an MD/PhD program.

With your application, and assuming your rec letters are outstanding, you should have a great chance at a top 20 school if you were to have a better MCAT score.

You need to realize that there is nothing in your life right now more important than scoring higher than the MCAT. Don't get stress from this, because you have a good shot at an MD/PhD program right now. But please realize that your application season will go a whole lot smoother and provide you with more options if you have a higher score.

So do whatever you can to limit your other commitments and focus on the MCAT. Quit/suspend your job if that is an option. Don't spend much time in lab right now. Put your energy for the next month (or two months if you are still not ready) and take the MCAT in July/early August. Update your application as soon as your score is back. I chose to wait until my second score was back to submit, but it is up to you. Perhaps others could comment on when to submit with a pending MCAT score.

Best of luck.

 

[BananaPancake12]

Thank you so much for responding, Stigma! And I'm really sorry for my crazy desperate tone -- I just saw the score today and panicked lol

So do whatever you can to limit your other commitments and focus on the MCAT. Quit/suspend your job if that is an option. Don't spend much time in lab right now. Put your energy for the next month (or two months if you are still not ready) and take the MCAT in July/early August. Update your application as soon as your score is back. I chose to wait until my second score was back to submit, but it is up to you. Perhaps others could comment on when to submit with a pending MCAT score.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to do major cut backs in lab (my PI is very adamant amount meeting some upcoming abstract deadlines), but my supervisor is pretty sweet, so hopefully she'll understand where my head is right now.

As for waiting to submit, Aug seems to be the only date as of right now that I can take it. Is it not too late to submit after these scores come out, in Sept? I've been reading around on this forum and everyone seem's to keep pushing earlier is the better -- so I'm not sure....I have some reservations.

Does anyone else have any opinions on this?

 

[Prophetstown]

Unfortunately, I won't be able to do major cut backs in lab (my PI is very adamant amount meeting some upcoming abstract deadlines), but my supervisor is pretty sweet, so hopefully she'll understand where my head is right now.

This is your choice and it's not a good choice. The MCAT matters much more than +10 advisor satisfaction - have them write your letter now and focus on the test, spending minimal time in lab. With a 35+ you'll likely get in several great places. With your current score you may struggle to get in at all.

 

[BananaPancake12]

This is your choice and it's not a good choice. The MCAT matters much more than +10 advisor satisfaction - have them write your letter now and focus on the test, spending minimal time in lab. With a 35+ you'll likely get in several great places. With your current score you may struggle to get in at all.

Prophetstown, I understand where you're coming from, but its not that simple. The lab is new and so its just my supervisor and myself doing the work, so there's more to it than just trying to satisfy my boss. Most importantly about this is that I was hired to do research, so I have to work to pay rent - i moved to a new state to do this, so i can't just go home.

Also the type of work that we do isn't a one person job, especially with these deadlines coming up. So I can't just not do my part of the work, because nothing else can be done.

Anyway, this all really doesn't matter, I've learned my lesson before with this situation, and will not repeat it twice. I'll definitely be putting in the time for the mcat to study, because it has to be done.

I just wanted to say again that I'm not trying to be snarky or make excuses -- just wanted to share that its not really an option for me to not show up to work. Thanks again for your input Prophetstown!

Also, does any one have an opinion about me submitting as late as suggested earlier?? Or verifying my application now?? Please, any other input would be really appreciated!

 

[Neuronix]

I'm realistic and would like to go to a good mid-tier school, and I'm thinking of submitting my app early (as its ready now), with my retake intention indicated on the amcas. Is this reasonable?

If you do this, most schools will only ever consider that 29, even if you update them. Most will fail you on the first cut, and they're not going to open your app back up for consideration.

This leaves you two options:

1) You can apply with that 29. It's risky and you may not get in at all this year. You can still retake the MCAT and send notices to the schools when you get back a new score. But, I wouldn't expect that to help you.

2) You can re-take the MCAT and apply after you have that score in hand. It will be a late application, but your chances will be much better with a late 35 than an early 29.

Either way you have to make sure you seriously focus on the MCAT this time. There are rules about taking it more than three times. You may not get a fourth chance at this.

 

[miz]

Verifying late would definitely hurt you. September!? I only know of two people who applied that late. They both had similar, decent stats (~3.8-3.9 from ivy, ~35 MCAT, 2+ years research and gap year), and applied broadly. One didn't get in at all and is reapplying this year. The other got into one low ranked MD/PhD off the waitlist the week classes started.
That said I have no idea if a September update would be taken into account. I think you have two options:
1. take an extra year; apply next cycle, really use your time to prepare for the MCAT.
2. apply now, study like mofo, take in august (or preferably in july in another state or something if you can adequately prepare in time), update schools.

I understand your situation, really I do. I can't offer a lot of advice even though I've been there because it's a really difficult situation. The only real option is just to work past capacity as hard as you can, do everything not quite as well as if you were to give it 100% of your time, and hope that it's good enough (and it will be). Good luck!!

 

[miz]

*one idea which I'm not sure will work, since neuronix thinks that you will be screened out (I'm sure he's right) is to see if AMCAS will update your application if you verify now but don't submit primaries to the majority of schools, then take the mcat, then receive your scores, then submit primaries.
My thought is that at least that way you'll avoid the long verification times that happen toward the end of the cycle. But realistically I don't think you'll be competitive past August..

 

[Caprica6]

I agree that submitting that late is a really bad idea. However, submitting with a 29 and expecting to get into a mid tier MSTP is unrealistic. It probably has happened before, but for people that have a super stellar application minus the MCAT score. Some lower tier MD/PhD programs may not screen you out. Personally, I think there isn't anything wrong with applying to these programs (depending on the program), but if you are aiming higher, then I think your best bet is to postpone your application for a year, and take more time to prep for the MCAT.

You do not want to have to reapply, it's a giant headache the first time, no one wants to have to do it twice. You also run the risk of not being prepared enough and not seeing much of a score change. Having to retake the MCAT a third time would be really bad.

Don't feel bad about not being able to dedicate your time to full time MCAT studying. Lots of people have to work for a living.

 

[BananaPancake12]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!

I've just registered for the July 26th MCAT (its the only seat available within the states surrounding me), and think that I will take a combination of the advice I've read and apply to my state school and a few other lower tier schools now, just to verify my application. Then take the MCAT, and update my application with other schools when the new score comes out. I know it'll be a bit later, but there's nothing else that can be done.

If anyone else would like to contribute, that would still be great, but I think this is my plan of action for now. Thanks again for the input guys!

 

[miz]

be sure to make sure that AMCAS will update your application before you do this!! It's possible that they will just send the initial application or whatever you had at time of verification to all schools even later. Call them and make sure that they will send the new score!

 

[Neuronix]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!

I've just registered for the July 26th MCAT (its the only seat available within the states surrounding me), and think that I will take a combination of the advice I've read and apply to my state school and a few other lower tier schools now, just to verify my application. Then take the MCAT, and update my application with other schools when the new score comes out. I know it'll be a bit later, but there's nothing else that can be done.

If anyone else would like to contribute, that would still be great, but I think this is my plan of action for now. Thanks again for the input guys!

I think this is a very reasonable course of action. Honestly, MD/PhD programs are not going to start reviewing your application until your secondary application and LORs are received. As long as your secondaries and LORs are in well before those deadlines, I do not think you will be at a significant disadvantage.

I think SDN overemphasizes the importance of an early application, and at times people make bad decisions to try to get their applications in early.

 

[miz]

I disagree. From anecdotal experience I think SDN underestimates the window of time that is acceptable, but is correct in its basic premise. I do think that the odds of being extended an interview diminish dramatically during and after August (primary submission) and late October (secondary submission). I'm sure it varies from school to school, with rolling admission schools and smaller programs being the most pressing. It makes sense to me that it might matter less for the larger nonrolling programs.
To the OP- a lot of this disadvantage of applying late is minimized by looking up secondary questions and writing your secondary essays early. That way, as soon as you receive your secondaries you can submit your application (which places you on the same footing as someone who applied months earlier but took a while to finish secondaries). I'd highly recommend that you do that as soon as you finish taking the MCAT.

 

[BananaPancake12]

be sure to make sure that AMCAS will update your application before you do this!! It's possible that they will just send the initial application or whatever you had at time of verification to all schools even later. Call them and make sure that they will send the new score!

To the OP- a lot of this disadvantage of applying late is minimized by looking up secondary questions and writing your secondary essays early. That way, as soon as you receive your secondaries you can submit your application (which places you on the same footing as someone who applied months earlier but took a while to finish secondaries). I'd highly recommend that you do that as soon as you finish taking the MCAT.

Thanks miz, I will definitely keep these things in mind, and work on the secondaries as I go along!

I think this is a very reasonable course of action. Honestly, MD/PhD programs are not going to start reviewing your application until your secondary application and LORs are received. As long as your secondaries and LORs are in well before those deadlines, I do not think you will be at a significant disadvantage.

I think SDN overemphasizes the importance of an early application, and at times people make bad decisions to try to get their applications in early.

Really appreciate your response, Neuronix, and feel more comfortable about this decision!

 

[plumazul]

I think this is a very reasonable course of action. Honestly, MD/PhD programs are not going to start reviewing your application until your secondary application and LORs are received. As long as your secondaries and LORs are in well before those deadlines, I do not think you will be at a significant disadvantage.

I think SDN overemphasizes the importance of an early application, and at times people make bad decisions to try to get their applications in early.

Hey, don't blame SDN for the hysteria, From the Cornell website:

The earlier your file is complete, the better your chances are of getting an interview. We interview only ~70 applicants per year. The later you are screened, the fewer interview slots may be available, which means it becomes more competitive later in the screening cycle. We start screening applications in August.
Therefore, APPLY EARLY, APPLY EARLY, APPLY EARLY. You are strongly encouraged to submit your AMCAS application by September 1, even if you haven't taken the MCAT exam yet. This allows us to start processing your application. If the rest of your file is complete, once we get your MCAT scores, your file is ready to be screened.

 

[Neuronix]

I agree with the Cornell website. You should have your primaries submitted in August if possible. If your MCAT pushes things back to September, just make sure your secondaries are still submitted ASAP. Secondaries should be complete in August or September. You can still complete things in October, but that is what I would consider late.

That is not at all what most SDN posts mean by "early". It seems like most SDNers feel their primaries have to be in by June or July at the absolute latest. This pushes people to take MCAT right after finals and not do as well as they'd have wanted. Every year someone gets a lousy MCAT score because they took it in May and they didn't have enough time to prepare.

In this thread, the op is talking about a re-take in late July. Assuming transcripts are certified before the MCAT score returns, he or she could have the new MCAT score in late August and still have primaries sent to programs by the suggested September 1 date. Hence, the op's application after a re-take would not be a "late" application in my mind, especially if the op gets in their secondaries promptly. This would be my recommendation, assuming that the op scores ~5 points (or more) higher on this retake.

 

[miz]

I agree with the Cornell website. You should have your primaries submitted in August if possible. If your MCAT pushes things back to September, just make sure your secondaries are still submitted ASAP. Secondaries should be complete in August or September. You can still complete things in October, but that is what I would consider late.

That is not at all what most SDN posts mean by "early". It seems like most SDNers feel their primaries have to be in by June or July at the absolute latest. This pushes people to take MCAT right after finals and not do as well as they'd have wanted. Every year someone gets a lousy MCAT score because they took it in May and they didn't have enough time to prepare.

In this thread, the op is talking about a re-take in late July. Assuming transcripts are certified before the MCAT score returns, he or she could have the new MCAT score in late August and still have primaries sent to programs by the suggested September 1 date. Hence, the op's application after a re-take would not be a "late" application in my mind, especially if the op gets in their secondaries promptly. This would be my recommendation, assuming that the op scores ~5 points (or more) higher on this retake.

One thing that is missing from this analysis is time to verification. (or is that what you mean by certification? See bottom of post) See the SDN 2011-2012 verification thread for comparison. Verification must take place before schools will extend you secondary invites. In some cases, schools do not begin screening applications for secondaries until after the primary is verified. This and not having transcripts received are two of the biggest reasons people apply late (OP- I suggest that you request your school(s) send official transcripts to amcas now- you can do it before you're done with the primary).

Verification is fast at the beginning of the application season and slows as the rate of application submission increases. By mid-July and early to mid August, the verification time is one month or so. In this way you might submit your application Aug 23 and not have it verified until September 22. This means schools will not even look at your application to consider giving you a secondary until September 22. If they take two or three weeks to decide to give you a secondary, that puts you into mid-October or later. This is assuming all the prompts for secondaries are online (not always true for MD/PhD essays) and that you had time to write them to your satisfaction, and that you have time to immediately fill out secondaries, which can require hours of annoying formatting and form-filling.
The average student (one without other inflexible issues like retaking the MCAT) should submit transcripts as soon as they get the grades from the last semester in- there's generally no reason not to submit those early- (Juneish) and try to apply before or by mid-July.

If you meant 'verification' by 'certification' then the advice to students retaking the MCAT should not be to apply by August; rather it should be to apply and submit the application for verification (to one or two schools) by June-July and then submit primaries to the bulk of schools as soon as the MCAT score is received, at the latest in late August. Even still the student may encounter some difficulties if schools drag their feet in sending secondaries (happens), fill their interview slots early (happens), or do not offer scheduling flexibility to applicants for later interviews (so all your schools invite you to interview on an overlapping date, which also happens to be their last interview date).

Also, if the OP were to retake in August, he/she would not receive a score until about a month later- September 5th at the earliest.

 

[flyers]

.

 

[Neuronix]

One thing that is missing from this analysis is time to verification. (or is that what you mean by certification? See bottom of post)

If you meant 'verification' by 'certification' then the advice to students retaking the MCAT should not be to apply by August; rather it should be to apply and submit the application for verification (to one or two schools) by June-July and then submit primaries to the bulk of schools as soon as the MCAT score is received, at the latest in late August.

This is what I meant. Thank you for the clarification.

BananaPancake said they are registered for July 26th. I think this is perfectly reasonable given the above. As always, a 35 MCAT received in August will take one further than a 30 MCAT received in June IMNSHO. Those who are getting their scores back in the late summer just need to heed your advice above in mind regarding primary completion. They should also have essays ready to submit secondaries ASAP.

 

[BananaPancake12]

That is not at all what most SDN posts mean by "early". It seems like most SDNers feel their primaries have to be in by June or July at the absolute latest. This pushes people to take MCAT right after finals and not do as well as they'd have wanted. Every year someone gets a lousy MCAT score because they took it in May and they didn't have enough time to prepare.

yes, this really is all too common.

(OP- I suggest that you request your school(s) send official transcripts to amcas now- you can do it before you're done with the primary).

Thanks miz, I'm definitely on your wave-length. I've already sent them in and amcas has marked them received. I just need to fix my essays now before sending in the completed app to be verified (i'm thinking within the next week and a half).

Verification is fast at the beginning of the application season and slows as the rate of application submission increases. By mid-July and early to mid August, the verification time is one month or so. In this way you might submit your application Aug 23 and not have it verified until September 22. This means schools will not even look at your application to consider giving you a secondary until September 22. If they take two or three weeks to decide to give you a secondary, that puts you into mid-October or later. This is assuming all the prompts for secondaries are online (not always true for MD/PhD essays) and that you had time to write them to your satisfaction, and that you have time to immediately fill out secondaries, which can require hours of annoying formatting and form-filling.

Are MD/PhD secondaries significantly different from one another (school wise)? I'm hoping that I will be able to receive secondaries from those lower-tier schools first and just tweak these answers for the other schools when I add them later. Hopefully that should allow me to be within a reasonable time frame for those later schools, no?

 

[miz]

Oops, sorry N- missed where he'd said he'd registered for July.
OP, check out this thread with last year's MD/PhD secondary prompts: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=896251
Mostly similar between schools for MD/PhD. Be sure to also search/look at MD only secondary prompts since you have to fill those out too. Those sometimes were really annoyingly random ("Write an autobiography of yourself/No word limit")

 

[BananaPancake12]

Oops, sorry N- missed where he'd said he'd registered for July.
OP, check out this thread with last year's MD/PhD secondary prompts: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=896251
Mostly similar between schools for MD/PhD. Be sure to also search/look at MD only secondary prompts since you have to fill those out too. Those sometimes were really annoyingly random ("Write an autobiography of yourself/No word limit")

Thank you for all your help miz!

 

[miz]

any time and good luck!