Chances for 39 O MCAT, Non-trad student.

[FtrDoc]

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Hey everyone,

I'm curious about a few things. I got my MCAT score yesterday and did very well. I got a 39O; 14 PS, 11 VR, 14 BS. Not sure what happened with the writing sample, but anyhow I'm sure someone wants to hurt me for even mentioning that ... I'm happy!!! Trust me!

I'm a nontraditional student. I have a 4.0 in my postbacc at CUNY Hunter College in NYC, my SciGPA with postbacc is 3.68 and my total GPA is a 3.52. Non-science GPA is a 3.44. I've volunteered/shadowed for 135 hours while working full time and going to school at night. I couldn't do research because I needed to support myself and pay for school.

Now, with this full picture can I get into Cornell or Penn with these scores? I was planning on applying more conservatively but now that I blew the MCAT out of the water, I'm thinking Johns Hopkins, Stanford? I don't know. Thoughts anyone?

Also, is there a chance that I might get money from a school or no? Just curious.

THANKS VERY MUCH!

 

[drizzt3117]

Probably going to be a long shot still. I'm sure you'll get some mid-tier love but I wouldn't bet money on getting a top tier acceptance.

 

[Catalystik]

Congrats on an outstanding MCAT performance.

You are talking about schools in the Top Twenty among research schools according to the US News and World Report.

Top schools aim to train future leaders in medicine. Your chances of an acceptance by one of them lies with whether your application supports this potential, backed up by your LOR writers. Ways in which you can show this capability for making a difference might be with substantive research (possibly with publications), with strong community service, or with above-and-beyond leadership.

If you are ambitious, and your current ECs are average, you might consider taking another two years to gain substantive research experience, outstanding leadership, and years of nonmedical community service. If you are in a hurry, you might consider sticking with your original application plans, maybe adding three dream schools, "just in case," and hoping that some less- to moderately-selective schools might be so dazzled by your MCAT score that they'll give you scholarship money to attend.

Just attempting to inject a note of realism.

 

[FtrDoc]

Realism is good. Thanks very much!!!

 

[FtrDoc]

Ok now that I have a moment to respond more fully Catalystik, I have more questions/points to make.

I understand why the "top" schools would want to see substantive research and publication, and non-medical community service. Given my situation as a non-trad and the fact that I did this without any external financial support, that should speak volumes to the ad coms about dedication. No?

I worked 40 hour weeks, volunteered/shadowed about 4 hours a week, had class for 10 hours a week, and studied probably around 20 hours in an average week from August 2007 - June 2010. I took summer classes one summer with a leave of absence from work. Anyhow, those are 75 hour weeks on average. This does not include the time that I spent leading the postbacc club at my school, and doing information sessions for new students. This means that I was over 80 hours many, many weeks (maybe 90?).

I just think that for an ad com to look at my application and not recognize the reasons for my not having research on my application would be somewhat unreasonable. The same goes for nonmedical volunteering. I have done volunteering in the past, and international volunteering, but it just was not reasonable at this point in time. Furthermore, a person does need to see family and friends at least OCASSIONALLY. You can't up and book on the people in your life completely in this process. That would be selfish, and isn't this career supposed to be somewhat selfless?

Finally, I have a career in medicine to look forward to, and it's not like the fundamental skills learned through a year or so of research cannot be picked up at a later date. We all are dedicating ourselves to a career of life-long learning, literally. I get the logic, I just don't understand why these schools expectations are not situation-specific.

And one last thing. I'm 28. I have other things to look forward to. I can't be so mypoic to think that my life is my career. It's just not, and I won't be caught in that trap like so many others ...

Now that that rant is complete =) I've done the best I can. I know I'll get in somewhere. I guess I was just shocked and never thought I'd be in the running for top schools period. But I'm going to apply to Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Brown, Penn etc. because I've worked my butt off and if they don't take me it's fine. I'm doing this because my heart's in it and I'll see where it takes me.

Thanks for the advice though. Comments are appreciated!

 

[Don Draper]

Ok now that I have a moment to respond more fully Catalystik, I have more questions/points to make.

I understand why the "top" schools would want to see substantive research and publication, and non-medical community service. Given my situation as a non-trad and the fact that I did this without any external financial support, that should speak volumes to the ad coms about dedication. No?

I worked 40 hour weeks, volunteered/shadowed about 4 hours a week, had class for 10 hours a week, and studied probably around 20 hours in an average week from August 2007 - June 2010. I took summer classes one summer with a leave of absence from work. Anyhow, those are 75 hour weeks on average. This does not include the time that I spent leading the postbacc club at my school, and doing information sessions for new students. This means that I was over 80 hours many, many weeks (maybe 90?).

I just think that for an ad com to look at my application and not recognize the reasons for my not having research on my application would be somewhat unreasonable. The same goes for nonmedical volunteering. I have done volunteering in the past, and international volunteering, but it just was not reasonable at this point in time. Furthermore, a person does need to see family and friends at least OCASSIONALLY. You can't up and book on the people in your life completely in this process. That would be selfish, and isn't this career supposed to be somewhat selfless?

Finally, I have a career in medicine to look forward to, and it's not like the fundamental skills learned through a year or so of research cannot be picked up at a later date. We all are dedicating ourselves to a career of life-long learning, literally. I get the logic, I just don't understand why these schools expectations are not situation-specific.

And one last thing. I'm 28. I have other things to look forward to. I can't be so mypoic to think that my life is my career. It's just not, and I won't be caught in that trap like so many others ...

Now that that rant is complete =) I've done the best I can. I know I'll get in somewhere. I guess I was just shocked and never thought I'd be in the running for top schools period. But I'm going to apply to Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Brown, Penn etc. because I've worked my butt off and if they don't take me it's fine. I'm doing this because my heart's in it and I'll see where it takes me.

Thanks for the advice though. Comments are appreciated!

lol. No one said you can't be a doctor.

I enjoy this line:

I can't be so mypoic to think that my life is my career. It's just not, and I won't be caught in that trap like so many others ...

The irony is, you will be so myopic in wanting to go to a top school but not in your career? These are contradictory.

You can become a doctor at any school. You are definitely being myopic and super career focused/oriented "caught in the trap" if you don't even want to accept the possibility of going to mid-tier schools.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think you're underestimating the time commitment medicine requires.

 

[Catalystik]

I know I'll get in somewhere. I guess I was just shocked and never thought I'd be in the running for top schools period. But I'm going to apply to Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Brown, Penn etc. because I've worked my butt off and if they don't take me it's fine. I'm doing this because my heart's in it and I'll see where it takes me.

That you are passionate and hardworking is evident. That you've succeeded academically despite your time challenges is impressive. If your Personal Statement and Secondary essays are equally eloquent to the above comments, you may well appeal to adcomms at top schools and inspire them to offer an interview, where you can sell yourself. There is an element of luck to this process, also, which can't be quantified. And I wish you that luck.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Hey everyone,

I'm curious about a few things. I got my MCAT score yesterday and did very well. I got a 39O; 14 PS, 11 VR, 14 BS. Not sure what happened with the writing sample, but anyhow I'm sure someone wants to hurt me for even mentioning that ... I'm happy!!! Trust me!

I'm a nontraditional student. I have a 4.0 in my postbacc at CUNY Hunter College in NYC, my SciGPA with postbacc is 3.68 and my total GPA is a 3.52. Non-science GPA is a 3.44. I've volunteered/shadowed for 135 hours while working full time and going to school at night. I couldn't do research because I needed to support myself and pay for school.

Now, with this full picture can I get into Cornell or Penn with these scores? I was planning on applying more conservatively but now that I blew the MCAT out of the water, I'm thinking Johns Hopkins, Stanford? I don't know. Thoughts anyone?

Also, is there a chance that I might get money from a school or no? Just
curious.

THANKS VERY MUCH!

First, congrats on the MCAT score and making it through a post bac.

You will likely get in somewhere. However, for top schools, you really have to stand out. How do you plan to do that? Your MCAT is great, but is only part of your application.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I'll save you a bit of money, you will NOT get into Brown no matter what. You have a much better shot at Stanford, Yale, Harvard and Penn. Remember that Brown takes the fewest applicants off AMCAS. The majority of their medical school is made up of PLME students. The rest are from linkage programs they have with various post-bac programs. After this, they try to fill their remaining dozen or so seats with diversity (minorities, peace core volunteers etc.).

Remember the old phrase that Princeton students rule the world, Harvard students run the world and Brown students save the world. The fact that you don't have any significant volunteers and are not in associated post-bac or a minority tells me you have absolutely no shot at Brown.

Now that that rant is complete =) I've done the best I can. I know I'll get in somewhere. I guess I was just shocked and never thought I'd be in the running for top schools period. But I'm going to apply to Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Brown, Penn etc. because I've worked my butt off and if they don't take me it's fine. I'm doing this because my heart's in it and I'll see where it takes me.

Thanks for the advice though. Comments are appreciated!

 

[FtrDoc]

I'll save you a bit of money, you will NOT get into Brown no matter what. You have a much better shot at Stanford, Yale, Harvard and Penn. Remember that Brown takes the fewest applicants off AMCAS. The majority of their medical school is made up of PLME students. The rest are from linkage programs they have with various post-bac programs. After this, they try to fill their remaining dozen or so seats with diversity (minorities, peace core volunteers etc.).

Remember the old phrase that Princeton students rule the world, Harvard students run the world and Brown students save the world. The fact that you don't have any significant volunteers and are not in associated post-bac or a minority tells me you have absolutely no shot at Brown.

Whatever, I'll spend the money I only get one shot. And what I meant by myopic, Don Draper, since you so "loved the line" was that it doesn't ultimately matter where I go, it never did. Yet, I now have the opportunity and wanted to know what shot I have. To have the opportunity for them to even look at me is a blessing. I never thought this would happen. And I've worked my but off so I'm going to apply.

I obviously blew a lot of pretentious ivy leaguers out of the water ... Thank you very much.

Finally, as far as Brown student saving the world, Princeton etc. yada yada. No I don't know that because those haven't been the circles I've traveled in. I'll apply and see what happens. Volunteering to go to Cambodia to go on a medical mission isn't that impressive when Mommy and Daddy are sending you there ... so we'll see what happens.

drizzt3117 ... yes OBVIOUSLY I'm underestimating the committement medicine requires. That doesn't make any sense ... I have an undergrad degree and will have spent four years putting this together. It's been a walk in the park! Let me tell you ...

The irony of my next statement will KILL you Don Draper, I promise. Everyone on here is too negative, lighten up. You can't have it all, if you do super well and want to take a shot at a dream school or several. DO IT!

The only people on here I like right now are ucladoc2b and Catalystik.

 

[FtrDoc]

drizzt3117 ... that means I'll be 10 years older than your average "traditional applicant". I felt the need to clarify.

Also, I know there's typos in that post-ignore them.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I was just trying to save you money since I'm a Brown alumni and a close friend of the director of admissions for Brown medical school (they took 20 kids off AMCAS this past year (15 of whom were RI residents or Brown alum [more the former than the latter]... 5 others were taken (mostly minorities))). Trust me when I say that they will gladly accept your donation to the school.

Brown is NOT a numbers school. Even with a 45/4.0 you don't have much of a shot (unless you happen to be a Rhode Island resident or in an affiliated post-bac program). They just don't really take kids off AMCAS.

If you don't believe me, ask Catalystik for her opinion on your chances at Brown.

If you are going to apply grand, pick those schools wisely. Harvard, Yale and Stanford are all better options than Brown for someone like you (i.e. that is not a RI resident).

Whatever, I'll spend the money I only get one shot. And what I meant by myopic, Don Draper, since you so "loved the line" was that it doesn't ultimately matter where I go, it never did. Yet, I now have the opportunity and wanted to know what shot I have. To have the opportunity for them to even look at me is a blessing. I never thought this would happen. And I've worked my but off so I'm going to apply.

 

[drizzt3117]

drizzt3117 ... that means I'll be 10 years older than your average "traditional applicant". I felt the need to clarify.

Also, I know there's typos in that post-ignore them.

The average md matriculant is 23.x so you're not that much older, at some schools it's higher.

Anyways, there's a number of factors here.

1) different schools view non-trads differently.

2) your stats are good but are borderline for top schools.

3) your attitude re: time commitment makes me question whether you'll enjoy the whole process. This isn't something that's specific towards you but IMO is fairly common w/ non-trads. They can talk all they want about their diverse experiences and skill set but if they aren't willing to put in a million hours like their younger classmates they shouldn't complain about being mediocre. I'm non-trad also but you'll never see me identify with them or post in the nt forum bc I think this attitude is pervasive.

 

[Don Draper]

Whatever, I'll spend the money I only get one shot. And what I meant by myopic, Don Draper, since you so "loved the line" was that it doesn't ultimately matter where I go, it never did. Yet, I now have the opportunity and wanted to know what shot I have. To have the opportunity for them to even look at me is a blessing. I never thought this would happen. And I've worked my but off so I'm going to apply.

The irony of my next statement will KILL you Don Draper, I promise. Everyone on here is too negative, lighten up. You can't have it all, if you do super well and want to take a shot at a dream school or several. DO IT!

I apologize for coming off negative.

You have a 3.5 and a 39, both are very strong and obviously you will be a strong candidate. Nearly 80% of the people who have these stats get into med school.

You have worked hard, I'm a non-trad also, so I know how hard it is. I wish you good luck and while you may have top tier schools look at you, it will be harder unless you are very well rounded (just being honest, they have tons of applicants to chose from, and I've looked into the "favor non trads" thing. They don't favor non trads in general, they expect our applications to have pretty much the same quality as a trad). But you have clincal experience, so maybe things work out great for you.

You will get plenty of looks with your stats. You just have to close the deal with "you".

The thing with dream schools is, I agree it is good to shoot for it. If you apply to 5-7 top 10 schools, then that would mean you have a lot of dream schools. Good luck. People here are generally pessimistic to give you an idea of what your up against. Not to take the wind out of your sails. Knowing this, if you still apply then you will know you need to really shine in some way. Which is good to know.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think some schools do favor non-trads a little bit, out of trying to add to the diversity of their class, with mixed results.

 

[Don Draper]

I think some schools do favor non-trads a little bit, out of trying to add to the diversity of their class, with mixed results.

Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that they expect non-trads to have all the same pieces of the applicant puzzle. Yet, some schools do chose tend to chose non-trad over trad more (when they are both good candidates).

 

[mspeedwagon]

UPenn, Dartmouth, OHSU, Ohio St, Case Western, Miami, Tulane, Creighton are all non-trad friendly. There was a thread about this a little bit ago. I'd suggest reading through it and seeing if any school on there appeal to you. I'm 27 myself (planning to start at 29 or 30).

I think some schools do favor non-trads a little bit, out of trying to add to the diversity of their class, with mixed results.

 

[drizzt3117]

Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that they expect non-trads to have all the same pieces of the applicant puzzle. Yet, some schools do chose tend to chose non-trad over trad more (when they are both good candidates).

Yep, I've elaborated on why I don't think this is a good idea but it is what it is.

 

[FtrDoc]

I sincerely appreciate this thread's change in tone =) Thank you very much for it. I'm serious.

I understand what you are saying about Brown now mspeedwagon. I do. I also understand, Don Draper, your comments about needing to look at the whole picture and be a shining applicant for these schools. I mean I knew this. But I guess part of this is also playing yourself up. I have a tendency to not think things I've done are a big deal. The problem with that is the next guy walks in and talks about his accomplishments in such a way that people are very impressed. I've never really been like that, but I know I need to be that way, to at least a certain extent, in this process.

I just came back from a great weekend with my nephews at the beach (3 & 4). Watching how excited they get with the littlest things-as kids do- just makes me feel that we need to let ourselves get excited about our accomplishments in this process (and more in general as adults). I have friends who didn't do well on the MCAT, but you know what? They got there and worked really hard for it. No need not to be proud. Pick up and try try again.

After several years in a corporate law environment, I have also learned that there are many, many people out there - single moms with 2 kids etc. - who didn't have many opportunities. I know that this is a process, but I look at it to a certain extent like theater. These aren't real problems! haha. Sure, there's roles to play, things to say, things we need to do etc. Ultimately, though, these are not the bread and butter of life. I know this. This is also what I meant by saying myopic before.

But I DO know this is the game we play and if I want to advance, I need to try and sell myself and play along. Theater. This is how it goes. It's what we all need to do ...

I will take this advice, then, and use it to pick through this process. I hope that everyone on here though realizes that we are so incredibly lucky to even consider medical school.

Thank you for your advice everyone! I appreciate it immensely. I apologize if I came off agressive in my last post. Good luck to all.

 

[FtrDoc]

The average md matriculant is 23.x so you're not that much older, at some schools it's higher.

Anyways, there's a number of factors here.

1) different schools view non-trads differently.

2) your stats are good but are borderline for top schools.

3) your attitude re: time commitment makes me question whether you'll enjoy the whole process. This isn't something that's specific towards you but IMO is fairly common w/ non-trads. They can talk all they want about their diverse experiences and skill set but if they aren't willing to put in a million hours like their younger classmates they shouldn't complain about being mediocre. I'm non-trad also but you'll never see me identify with them or post in the nt forum bc I think this attitude is pervasive.

drizzt3117 your third point has loaded in many ways. The truth of the matter is that non-trads are looking at medical school with different expectations. I seriously detest words like mediocre etc. when talking about people because there are many, many areas of life in which to be a success and a career is not, for everyone, the penultimate acheivement.

I AGREE with you that if you are not putting in the time, then there really is no reason to complain. I appreciate people who are self-aware enough to know where they are spending their time and devoting their energies. If a non-trad wants to start a family in medical school and some of their study energy goes to that, well then that is the choice. We are not bottomless pitts of energy.

I cannot speak to a pervasive attitude of not wanting to put in the time among non-trads, because that is not what I see. I respect your right to interpret your encounters with nontrads in whatever way you believe is accurate. Among my friends and classmates, I'm not say I could say that is accurate. There are different pressures on non-trads as older applicants.

Now, regarding my attitutde towards the time committment. I think you are off base, completely off base actually. I also think it would be wise for you to learn not to make such large generalizations from such little information. I am aware of the time committement; I severely doubt you are more aware of this than I. I am also prepared to work very hard, if you don't think I do, well, it doesn't matter. I plan on meeting people with many opinions in medical school, and I'm sure many of them will believe they are spot on in their evaluations of situations, coworkers and patients.

As a gay male, I'm lucky in the sense that I do not expect to have the same pressures to start a family as my straight non-trad counterparts. BUT if they do not do as well on the boards as I do because I'm putting in more time, well, then that's fine. Whatever. Everyone makes their own choices. drizzt3117 do what you need to do to excel. The rest is nonsense. I'm just saying it's impossible to generalize to a group. I hope I didn't hurt your pride too much.

 

[FtrDoc]

And I know now I just changed the tone of this thread back to agressive and bickering.

drizzt3117 I hope you do well, honestly. I hope you do very, very, very well. Let's just not go back and forth in silliness. I just felt the need to defend myself and I understand that you see certain things that other people say and they bug you. That's fine. I hope you rock out!

Peace.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm just giving you things to think about. I've already put in the time for my 255+ step and AOA. I've already spent three consecutive nights in the hospital without breaks longer than an hour to sleep. In my experience it's not possible to have balance at least during some parts of training if you want to be the best but ymmv. In my experience most non-trads have trouble with this. Maybe you won't, who knows. If you don't take the advice you're given, that's fine.

 

[FtrDoc]

I'm just giving you things to think about. I've already put in the time for my 255+ step and AOA. I've already spent three consecutive nights in the hospital without breaks longer than an hour to sleep. In my experience it's not possible to have balance at least during some parts of training if you want to be the best but ymmv. In my experience most non-trads have trouble with this. Maybe you won't, who knows. If you don't take the advice you're given, that's fine.

drizzt3117, right no I understand. It sounds rough. Take care of yourself and I know it's probably impossible to have balance, I do. I trust that I will be able to meet those demands. I know that it'll suck, but I'm going to try my best to be as positive as possible. And I know how hard that is when you are stressed, and weary from sleep deprivation. I can't imagine those hospital shifts, but it will happen one day and I'll do what I have to. I appreciate you taking the time to post here with your advice. I know it's coming from a good place. We shall see what happens when I get there ... in the interim secondaries are calling mi nombre.