Chances for Neurology - MSII here

[docguy12]

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Hello all,
I am a MS-II at an osteopathic school. I'm writing this post bc I am interested in pursuing neurology. I am in my 2nd year of medical school (getting ready for boards) and amidst it all I've been bothered by how little I know of the profession and the general details of acquiring a neurology residency. My questions to you neurologists or residents are these:

1) How would you rank the competitive nature of neurology? I am not talking about just the top tier program, etc. just in general as a specialty if this is going to be my first choice to the match.

2) What is the typical profile of an applicant. In this panel please include average USMLE, COMLEX scores?

3) How important are grades and how do future interviewers and applicant selectors view pre-clinical grades? I am an average student and have earned high pass/pass marks on the bulk of my classes with the exception of two where I have received a "low pass". I have not failed any courses at any term. (I have earned High Pass in Neuroscience -- does this help?)

4) What exactly is the San Francisco match...? How and who is that for?

5) Any other advice as I plan to prepare for neurology/comments of hope? (Could really use some).

Thank you friends.

 

[Head]

Hello all,
I am a MS-II at an osteopathic school. I'm writing this post bc I am interested in pursuing neurology. I am in my 2nd year of medical school (getting ready for boards) and amidst it all I've been bothered by how little I know of the profession and the general details of acquiring a neurology residency. My questions to you neurologists or residents are these:

1) How would you rank the competitive nature of neurology? I am not talking about just the top tier program, etc. just in general as a specialty if this is going to be my first choice to the match.

Neurology is not very competitive compared to other specialties. Having said that, as a DO, it would be extremely difficult for you to get into the top tier of schools. You shouldn't have any problem getting into the next tier of schools if you have a solid application.

2) What is the typical profile of an applicant. In this panel please include average USMLE, COMLEX scores?

I don't know the exact scores, but I'm pretty sure the average scores are right around the national average. You could probably search old posts to get exact numbers. If you score above average on these tests you will be competitive.

3) How important are grades and how do future interviewers and applicant selectors view pre-clinical grades? I am an average student and have earned high pass/pass marks on the bulk of my classes with the exception of two where I have received a "low pass". I have not failed any courses at any term. (I have earned High Pass in Neuroscience -- does this help?)

We don't give a dead rat about your pre-clinical grades. The sad reality is that they are about as important as only one of your rotations during third year. Don't sweat it and just try to excel during your third year rotations. Going into Neuro, it would look good if you honored your neuro rotation. The next most important would be medicine.

4) What exactly is the San Francisco match...? How and who is that for?

The SF match is a match that occurs a few months prior to the regular match. Neuro was part of the SF match just a few years ago, but is now part of the regular match. I believe there are still a few specialties that do the SF (like NS and ophtho), but I'm not sure.

5) Any other advice as I plan to prepare for neurology/comments of hope? (Could really use some).

The most important things on your application: letters of rec, how you did on your rotations, and board scores. Equally as important are your interviewing skills. When we interview you, we want to see someone who can articulate well what they have accomplished and would seem to interact well with patients. Last piece of advice - as a DO I would recommend you do an away neurology rotation to get at least one letter of rec from an MD Neurologist. Let's just say that many committee members are less trusting of LOR's coming from DO's.

 

[singinfifi]

Neurology is not very competitive compared to other specialties. Having said that, as a DO, it would be extremely difficult for you to get into the top tier of schools. You shouldn't have any problem getting into the next tier of schools if you have a solid application.



I don't know the exact scores, but I'm pretty sure the average scores are right around the national average. You could probably search old posts to get exact numbers. If you score above average on these tests you will be competitive.



We don't give a dead rat about your pre-clinical grades. The sad reality is that they are about as important as only one of your rotations during third year. Don't sweat it and just try to excel during your third year rotations. Going into Neuro, it would look good if you honored your neuro rotation. The next most important would be medicine.



The SF match is a match that occurs a few months prior to the regular match. Neuro was part of the SF match just a few years ago, but is now part of the regular match. I believe there are still a few specialties that do the SF (like NS and ophtho), but I'm not sure.



The most important things on your application: letters of rec, how you did on your rotations, and board scores. Equally as important are your interviewing skills. When we interview you, we want to see someone who can articulate well what they have accomplished and would seem to interact well with patients. Last piece of advice - as a DO I would recommend you do an away neurology rotation to get at least one letter of rec from an MD Neurologist. Let's just say that many committee members are less trusting of LOR's coming from DO's.

Thank you so much for your well thought out reply! I am also a 2nd year Osteopathic student. Neurology is what got me interested in medicine and I'm still very interested in it now (the end of my 2nd year). I know I have rotations to REALLY decide what I want to do but neurology remains (as of now) my top choice. Thanks again.

 

[95439]

I agree with most of what Head has to say, except I do think that pre-clinical grades can influence your application, especially if you've made Alpha Omega Alpha (MD) or Sigma Phi Phi (DO) honors..(they do ask if you're a member of either on ERAS).
My 'advisor' at my school told me to go to the SF match to fill out my neurology application. Umm, yeah, that's for pediatric neurology now. Just use the regular ERAS program.

My main advice to you would be to FOCUS ON STUDYING FOR BOARDS. I'm a DO student too, and I think you can 'make up' for an osteopathic background by doing really well on USMLE. Head is still correct in that it's very difficult to match into a 'top tier' MD Neurology residency (or any MD residency for that matter) coming from a DO school, but you're definitely eligible for the vast majority of MD neurology residencies. Oh, and don't apply to Barrow Neurological Institute, they really look down on DO's ;o)

My advice would be, when the time comes, to apply to more programs then others might recommend. (around 40 or even more). This is the most important step in your career and a few hundred dollars could help you go somewhere you never thought you'd be able to get into.

And definitely ACE your neurology rotation and get an LOR from the Dr. (IM and/or Psychiatry LOR's are also valuable IMHO).

 

[docguy12]

Head and bblue...thank you for the comments. I'll look into a few of your suggestions once I'm finished with boards. Good luck to you guys.

 

[bustbones26]

Hello all,
I am a MS-II at an osteopathic school. I'm writing this post bc I am interested in pursuing neurology. I am in my 2nd year of medical school (getting ready for boards) and amidst it all I've been bothered by how little I know of the profession and the general details of acquiring a neurology residency. My questions to you neurologists or residents are these:

1) How would you rank the competitive nature of neurology? I am not talking about just the top tier program, etc. just in general as a specialty if this is going to be my first choice to the match.

2) What is the typical profile of an applicant. In this panel please include average USMLE, COMLEX scores?

3) How important are grades and how do future interviewers and applicant selectors view pre-clinical grades? I am an average student and have earned high pass/pass marks on the bulk of my classes with the exception of two where I have received a "low pass". I have not failed any courses at any term. (I have earned High Pass in Neuroscience -- does this help?)

4) What exactly is the San Francisco match...? How and who is that for?

5) Any other advice as I plan to prepare for neurology/comments of hope? (Could really use some).

Thank you friends.

Here is the deal. Osteopathic Neurology Residencies are slightly competitive because you only have about four of them? (Back when I was in DO school I think that is all there was from my recollection).

But on the allopathic side of the house, you will have many of them to apply to. In general, if you have a pulse and graduated from an american medical school, getting a neurology residency will not be a problem. Yes, if you want to go to MGH, Hopkins, Mayo, you'll need to be top of your class, but getting a neuro residency in general, don't sweat it.

 

[95439]

Here is the deal. Osteopathic Neurology Residencies are slightly competitive because you only have about four of them? (Back when I was in DO school I think that is all there was from my recollection).

But on the allopathic side of the house, you will have many of them to apply to. In general, if you have a pulse and graduated from an american medical school, getting a neurology residency will not be a problem. Yes, if you want to go to MGH, Hopkins, Mayo, you'll need to be top of your class, but getting a neuro residency in general, don't sweat it.

I respectfully disagree with a couple of things - 1) (not a big deal) but there are about 12 DO residencies now 2) Neurology residency isn't THAT easy to get into anymore...maybe there are a couple of programs that will take anyone with 'a pulse', but in general if you want to go anywhere decent you should do well on boards etc...I think it's become a more competitive specialty IMHO. (P.S. if you're an attending where I'm doing residency I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE with what you said lol)

 

[PhakeDoc]

check this out from the '09 match.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

Also, I do think that neuro is becoming more difficult, at least with respect to the top tier.

 

[Packamylase]

There are a ton of DOs at Barrow. What do you mean they look down on DOs?

I agree with most of what Head has to say, except I do think that pre-clinical grades can influence your application, especially if you've made Alpha Omega Alpha (MD) or Sigma Phi Phi (DO) honors..(they do ask if you're a member of either on ERAS).
My 'advisor' at my school told me to go to the SF match to fill out my neurology application. Umm, yeah, that's for pediatric neurology now. Just use the regular ERAS program.

My main advice to you would be to FOCUS ON STUDYING FOR BOARDS. I'm a DO student too, and I think you can 'make up' for an osteopathic background by doing really well on USMLE. Head is still correct in that it's very difficult to match into a 'top tier' MD Neurology residency (or any MD residency for that matter) coming from a DO school, but you're definitely eligible for the vast majority of MD neurology residencies. Oh, and don't apply to Barrow Neurological Institute, they really look down on DO's ;o)

My advice would be, when the time comes, to apply to more programs then others might recommend. (around 40 or even more). This is the most important step in your career and a few hundred dollars could help you go somewhere you never thought you'd be able to get into.

And definitely ACE your neurology rotation and get an LOR from the Dr. (IM and/or Psychiatry LOR's are also valuable IMHO).

 

[95439]

There are a ton of DOs at Barrow. What do you mean they look down on DOs?

During my interview there, within the first five minutes of the opening presentation, the chairman of the Neurology dept, not knowing there were 3 DO's in the room (out of 5 applicants), said "DO schools are fake medical schools". He asked me where I went to school a couple of minutes later and I said "to a fake medical school", and then so did another applicant. I was supposed to interview with him that afternoon, but 'something' came up and he 'couldn't make it'🙄
Then in two separate interviews that day, I was asked by different doctors at Barrow "Sooo, you seem like a really good applicant. Why did you go to a DO school?". It even got worse but I'll stop there. Hopefully that answers your question.

 

[bustbones26]

During my interview there, within the first five minutes of the opening presentation, the chairman of the Neurology dept, not knowing there were 3 DO's in the room (out of 5 applicants), said "DO schools are fake medical schools". He asked me where I went to school a couple of minutes later and I said "to a fake medical school", and then so did another applicant. I was supposed to interview with him that afternoon, but 'something' came up and he 'couldn't make it'🙄
Then in two separate interviews that day, I was asked by different doctors at Barrow "Sooo, you seem like a really good applicant. Why did you go to a DO school?". It even got worse but I'll stop there. Hopefully that answers your question.

What can I say, in history, the west was a frontier and still is for DOs. Let's face it, on the eastern side of the country, they are everywhere and nobody really cares much.

Whenever I was a resident, my program had us do two months at the University of Washington. The first week there, I got paged by the hospital coders. They were trying to figure out if I was a resident, attending, or just in general what in the hell I was because they were reviewing all of these signed notes by me with DO at the end of my name and didn't even know what that was?

Give it time, the osteopathic schools are moving westward. Just before I left Washington, they did open up a school in Yakima. California is making their mark too. AZOM opened about 10 years ago??? It will just take time.

 

[95439]

What can I say, in history, the west was a frontier and still is for DOs. Let's face it, on the eastern side of the country, they are everywhere and nobody really cares much.

Whenever I was a resident, my program had us do two months at the University of Washington. The first week there, I got paged by the hospital coders. They were trying to figure out if I was a resident, attending, or just in general what in the hell I was because they were reviewing all of these signed notes by me with DO at the end of my name and didn't even know what that was?

Give it time, the osteopathic schools are moving westward. Just before I left Washington, they did open up a school in Yakima. California is making their mark too. AZOM opened about 10 years ago??? It will just take time.

Honestly it's not as bad as I would have thought. The above post is the only obvious discrimination I encountered during interviews at over 20 MD residencies. Plus I think alot of us DO's work harder to overcome the preconceived notions (whether real or imagined) some MD's have.
The ironic thing is they kept telling me at Barrow (residents and faculty), that their 'best resident was a DO' 😕

 

[PhakeDoc]

I'm really sorry you had to hear such garbage on your day there, bblue. I wonder if anyone from that program reads SDN.

 

[95439]

I'm really sorry you had to hear such garbage on your day there, bblue. I wonder if anyone from that program reads SDN.

Thanks Phakerealdoc😉 But really it wasn't a big deal, just confirmed my disinterest in their program. No harm done.

 

[singinfifi]

just confirmed my disinterest in their program. No harm done.

That's fantastic. I don't know why (it may be the 7 hours of kaplan videos today) but I found that laugh out loud hilarious.