Chances of matching

[Jmish1035]

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Keeping in mind that the applicant already has high enough test scores, good rank, good grades, research experience, good letters etc, would he have a better chance matching at an institution where they have worked and/or volunteered at for a good chunk of time (and thus know a good number of physicians there) prior to entering med school? We are talking relatively noncompetitive programs (Not Ortho, Plastics, Derm etc).

A friend of mine (current MS3) was asking me this the other day out of curiosity. As a lowly incoming MS1, I obviously know very little about this. Penny for your thoughts.

 

[mw18]

Unless you made a personal connection in the department and with the program director during your volunteering, probably not. Well, not because of the volunteering. However, having lived in that area has been known to make a very big difference for many residencies (especially if your med school isn't in the region, it's worth making the programs aware), particularly in the less competitive specialties.

 

[SunsFun]

Roll your eyes at him next time instead of making a thread about it.

 

[libertyyne]

If you know people that will make phone calls for you before match rolls around this can be beneficial. If it is a small community and these people know each other, they will obviously hold weight in the PDs mind.

 

[sab3156]

Definitely, assuming these faculty members have any influence over the ranking process. It happens in competitive specialties like Ophtho all the time, where people match into select programs through networking and making themselves well-known to influential people. In a top program I worked at, it was hard to find any resident that wasn't well networked prior to matching. The issue comes down to how influential these faculty members are.

 

[Jmish1035]

Thank you all for your responses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that doing a SubI at that hospital would help out as well.

 

[DBV]

Thank you all for your responses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that doing a SubI at that hospital would help out as well.

(Big huge asterisk) if you do well

 

[sab3156]

Thank you all for your responses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that doing a SubI at that hospital would help out as well.

Connections are better than anything and shouldn't be equated to a Sub I. Sub I can be hit or miss, and no one seemed to care very much about anyone rotating through the program I was working at.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Connections are better than anything and shouldn't be equated to a Sub I. Sub I can be hit or miss, and no one seemed to care very much about anyone rotating through the program I was working at.

Ok, we have now passed into the realm of you giving advice as if you have lived it. You have not; you are a first year. Seriously, you like giving advice; that’s noble, but wait a few years before you start giving advice on clinical rotations. As of now, for the most part, you know not of what you speak.

OP, connections can be important, and I have heard of some really, really good ones getting someone in (the student was literally friends with the PD); however, they are not the be all and end all of all of placing. Having not done a Sub-I, I can’t really talk to their importance, but from experience, I know that one of the biggest things that PDs want to see is that you can hack it in their program, which, logically, a good LOR from a Sub-I can help do.

 

[NotaCop]

OP, connections can be important, and I have heard of some really, really good ones getting someone in (the student was literally friends with the PD); however, they are not the be all and end all of all of placing. Having not done a Sub-I, I can’t really talk to their importance, but from experience, I know that one of the biggest things that PDs want to see is that you can hack it in their program, which, logically, a good LOR from a Sub-I can help do.

To add to this, the general consensus I've seen thus far (source: older student mentors who matched well, faculty mentors and networking connections at conferences) is that the value of connections varies inversely with size of the field (exception being PD at program you like or those few big names every field has that everyone knows, they are valuable no matter what).

What I mean is, in a small field like urology/rad onc/etc. your connections can be make or break as everyone knows everyone and word travels fast, colleagues rely the opinion of others they know and respect, and letters carry a lot more weight. In a larger field, such as IM or Peds or something connections matter much less as inter-field ties are not as strong, 95% of the field may have no clue who your "excellent connection" even is, letters carry less weight for this same reason, etc. Exception being those few rock stars in the field that everyone does know, as previously mentioned. Hope this interpretation helps!

Caveat: M2 with no direct experience with match of course

 

[sab3156]

Ok, we have now passed into the realm of you giving advice as if you have lived it. You have not; you are a first year. Seriously, you like giving advice; that’s noble, but wait a few years before you start giving advice on clinical rotations. As of now, for the most part, you know not of what you speak.

OP, connections can be important, and I have heard of some really, really good ones getting someone in (the student was literally friends with the PD); however, they are not the be all and end all of all of placing. Having not done a Sub-I, I can’t really talk to their importance, but from experience, I know that one of the biggest things that PDs want to see is that you can hack it in their program, which, logically, a good LOR from a Sub-I can help do.

You have some personal issues? PM me instead of acting like a child.

I am quoting exactly what has been told to me by several PDs and residents in the specialty I mentioned above. MD students in several specialties are told to not even do away rotations if they have a decent application, unless they need letters. That's reality for a lot of specialties, including the one I quoted above.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

You have some personal issues? PM me instead of acting like a child.

I am quoting exactly what has been told to me by several PDs and residents in the specialty I mentioned above. MD students in several specialties are told to not even do away rotations if they have a decent application, unless they need letters. That's reality for a lot of specialties, including the one I quoted above.

The only issue I have is that a first year, who has a stated interest in one specific highly competitive specialty, is giving advice to others as if said advice is applicable to everyone. I’m not saying you never have any good points; you probably know a lot more about the ophtho process than I do despite not starting your clinical rotations yet, but OP is talking about relatively non-competitive specialties, not crazy small specialties where everyone knows everyone.

The reason people bring up that you are a first year when you post things like this is due to the massive experience gap between pre-clinical and clinical years; seriously, it is huge. You have done your research; that’s great. If I were to make a bet, I’d be willing to put money down that you will be matching ophtho if that’s still your goal come fourth year; because, you have done your due diligence and seem to be that driven. But your experience gap and anger at the difficulties of matching as a DO are driving you to give people coming from a different place than you bad advice.

Sorry to derail the discussion, @Jmish1035.

 

[sab3156]

The only issue I have is that a first year, who has a stated interest in one specific highly competitive specialty, is giving advice to others as if said advice is applicable to everyone. I’m not saying you never have any good points; you probably know a lot more about the ophtho process than I do despite not starting your clinical rotations yet, but OP is talking about relatively non-competitive specialties, not crazy small specialties where everyone knows everyone.

The reason people bring up that you are a first year when you post things like this is due to the massive experience gap between pre-clinical and clinical years; seriously, it is huge. You have done your research; that’s great. If I were to make a bet, I’d be willing to put money down that you will be matching ophtho if that’s still your goal come fourth year; because, you have done your due diligence and seem to be that driven. But your experience gap and anger at the difficulties of matching as a DO are driving you to give people coming from a different place than you bad advice.

Sorry to derail the discussion, @Jmish1035.

So basically you derailed a discussion in order to offer irrelevant nitpickings about Sub Is (when you have zero experience with them) and to tell me that I have zero experience and should not be giving advice? Something here tells me you take things very personally. Try and relax.

Also, if you choose to actually read what this discussion is about, it isn't about using connections from Program X to get into Programs Y or Z, it is about connections at Program X (from previous work experience where this person got to know the faculty) and matching at THAT program. In this context, a Sub I is not going to be at the same level as that in terms of reliability. Would you rather be in the position of wanting to match at Program X, and having to do a Sub I there, or having years of work experience with those faculty members at that program that basically made them trust you and believe in your professional capabilities? It is a no brainer which situation is the better one for the match.

 

[Chibucks15]

So basically you derailed a discussion in order to offer irrelevant nitpickings about Sub Is (when you have zero experience with them) and to tell me that I have zero experience and should not be giving advice? Something here tells me you take things very personally. Try and relax.

Also, if you choose to actually read what this discussion is about, it isn't about using connections from Program X to get into Programs Y or Z, it is about connections at Program X (from previous work experience where this person got to know the faculty) and matching at THAT program. In this context, a Sub I is not going to be at the same level as that in terms of reliability. Would you rather be in the position of wanting to match at Program X, and having to do a Sub I there, or having years of work experience with those faculty members at that program that basically made them trust you and believe in your professional capabilities? It is a no brainer which situation is the better one for the match.

Maybe....and I'm just spitballing here...if everyone else in the forum repeatedly chides you for giving advice you don't have direct experience in, maybe that should be a hint that you may not be as correct as you think you are...

 

[sab3156]

Maybe....and I'm just spitballing here...if everyone else in the forum repeatedly chides you for giving advice you don't have direct experience in, maybe that should be a hint that you may not be as correct as you think you are...

Like I said before, this is information coming from PDs at top programs that I personally worked with. It is only on the DO forum where you see people saying the opposite. Maybe... and I'm just spitballing here... you haven't realized that yet.

 

[Chibucks15]

Like I said before, this is information coming from PDs at top programs that I personally worked with. It is only on the DO forum where you see people saying the opposite. Maybe... and I'm just spitballing here... you haven't realized that yet.

The only issue that people have is that you're passing off optho information as if it was information for everyone. Optho is a much smaller field where people know each other. For less competitive things that is not the case, so knowing someone won't be the top priority. Everyone criticizing you has a valid point, as you have yet to provide anything but anecdotal evidence for your claims, and when someone counters you, you dismiss it as purely anecdotal and that we don't know what were talking about. I'm definitely not alone in that thought as evidenced by every thread you derail.

Like other posters have said, it is simply an experience thing. Giving advice on things you haven't directly been through (besides working at some place) doesn't seem to be the most helpful thing, and most people won't take it at face value because of it, especially as things change with the merger and all that. Getting all angsty when someone disagrees with you isn't really productive either. I've seen the same things on MD forums too man, not everyone is as delusional and clueless about matching as a DO as you claim. For all the good SDN got me when I was applying its sure gone even more to nonsense since we started med school.

I know you wish you went to an MD school but I sincerely hope the anti-DO attitude doesn't rub your classmates and colleagues the wrong way. I'm no DO apologist but at the end of the day I'll still be a doctor regardless of the letters behind my name. Best of luck in matching to that optho program you know so well...all those top PDs you're buddy buddy with will help I'm sure.

 

[sab3156]

The only issue that people have is that you're passing off optho information as if it was information for everyone. Optho is a much smaller field where people know each other. For less competitive things that is not the case, so knowing someone won't be the top priority. Everyone criticizing you has a valid point, as you have yet to provide anything but anecdotal evidence for your claims, and when someone counters you, you dismiss it as purely anecdotal and that we don't know what were talking about. I'm definitely not alone in that thought as evidenced by every thread you derail.

Like other posters have said, it is simply an experience thing. Giving advice on things you haven't directly been through (besides working at some place) doesn't seem to be the most helpful thing, and most people won't take it at face value because of it, especially as things change with the merger and all that. Getting all angsty when someone disagrees with you isn't really productive either. I've seen the same things on MD forums too man, not everyone is as delusional and clueless about matching as a DO as you claim. For all the good SDN got me when I was applying its sure gone even more to nonsense since we started med school.

I know you wish you went to an MD school but I sincerely hope the anti-DO attitude doesn't rub your classmates and colleagues the wrong way. I'm no DO apologist but at the end of the day I'll still be a doctor regardless of the letters behind my name. Best of luck in matching to that optho program you know so well...

This is by far the most nonsensical, incoherent, straw man, and irrelevant personal attack I have ever read.

And I will say it again, since you just mentioned ophtho being a small field as if that supports any argument, proving that you don't know what this thread is about:


Also, if you choose to actually read what this discussion is about, it isn't about using connections from Program X to get into Programs Y or Z, it is about connections at Program X (from previous work experience where this person got to know the faculty) and matching at THAT program. In this context, a Sub I is not going to be at the same level as that in terms of reliability. Would you rather be in the position of wanting to match at Program X, and having to do a Sub I there, or having years of work experience with those faculty members at that program that basically made them trust you and believe in your professional capabilities? It is a no brainer which situation is the better one for the match.

 

[libertyyne]

Do people seriously believe that OP's friend would not have a higher chance of matching in an institution that he worked at before and has solid relationships with the people there ?

 

[Jmish1035]

Wowwy, did not expect this. SDN is never boring.

I guess I could clarify the details a bit more.

Friend is an MS3 who took 2-3 years off before entering med school. He spent over half of that time working at a hospital in a specialty field under a well-known doc who works with many of the IM and EM faculty. My friend had also volunteered at said hospital in both of the aforementioned departments for 5+ years, so he does know a few other people who could vouch for him. He grew up and lived in the area before moving away for school. His SO (soon to be wife) still lives there. With that said, he would love to train there as it is his number one choice.

 

[libertyyne]

Wowwy, did not expect this. SDN is never boring.

I guess I could clarify the details a bit more.

Friend is an MS3 who took 2-3 years off before entering med school. He spent over half of that time working at a hospital in a specialty field under a well-known doc who works with many of the IM and EM faculty. My friend had also volunteered at said hospital in both of the aforementioned departments for 5+ years, so he does know a few other people who could vouch for him. He grew up and lived in the area before moving away for school. His SO (soon to be wife) still lives there. With that said, he would love to train there as it is his number one choice.

As long as he is an AMG and is competitive for the program. He has a really good chance. Nothing is certain. But I feel like applying for match is a lot like applying for any job. The more familiar programs are with you and the more people batting for you at the program means higher chance of success.

Maybe some input from @aProgDirector could provide some real insight.

 

[operaman]

By far the most important factor cited by program directors in making ranking decisions is.... personal knowledge of the applicant.

Now, this doesn't say in which direction the knowledge swayed their decision!

Overwhelming odds that it makes absolutely no difference. I can't remember most of our away rotators who were here a few months ago much less those who were here last year or the year before. These are people who were on our service for a month, rounded with us everyday, etc. How much less do you think our attendings remember when they only saw them briefly in clinic or an OR? Granted, I definitely remember really stellar ones and some of the really bad ones have become something of a legend, but 95% I just don't remember.

So, how much do you think people will remember of someone who volunteered or worked here 4 years ago? Shoot, I don't know many of the people who work here now! Hospitals are just big places and you get to know the people you work with but you are always surrounded by faces that look familiar but you don't know who they are. This is probably where most pre-med volunteers would land -- I'd see them years later and think they looked familiar.

If you have a choice, I think it would be great to work/volunteer as a pre-med at a place where you might want to match one day. I suggest this not as a strategy to improve chances, but as an opportunity for you to see the inner workings of a program and decide if its somewhere you'd actually like to train. I landed in a great situation, but it was a decision based mostly on gut feeling combined with a little knowledge of the program and advice of mentors. When it came time to make my list, I found myself wishing I had more knowledge of each program beyond what they show on interview day. If you were able to get some of this as a pre-med while simultaneously knocking out a requirement for med school apps, I'd call that a good use of time.

 

[sab3156]

By far the most important factor cited by program directors in making ranking decisions is.... personal knowledge of the applicant.

Now, this doesn't say in which direction the knowledge swayed their decision!

Overwhelming odds that it makes absolutely no difference. I can't remember most of our away rotators who were here a few months ago much less those who were here last year or the year before. These are people who were on our service for a month, rounded with us everyday, etc. How much less do you think our attendings remember when they only saw them briefly in clinic or an OR? Granted, I definitely remember really stellar ones and some of the really bad ones have become something of a legend, but 95% I just don't remember.

So, how much do you think people will remember of someone who volunteered or worked here 4 years ago? Shoot, I don't know many of the people who work here now! Hospitals are just big places and you get to know the people you work with but you are always surrounded by faces that look familiar but you don't know who they are. This is probably where most pre-med volunteers would land -- I'd see them years later and think they looked familiar.

If you have a choice, I think it would be great to work/volunteer as a pre-med at a place where you might want to match one day. I suggest this not as a strategy to improve chances, but as an opportunity for you to see the inner workings of a program and decide if its somewhere you'd actually like to train. I landed in a great situation, but it was a decision based mostly on gut feeling combined with a little knowledge of the program and advice of mentors. When it came time to make my list, I found myself wishing I had more knowledge of each program beyond what they show on interview day. If you were able to get some of this as a pre-med while simultaneously knocking out a requirement for med school apps, I'd call that a good use of time.

This is all true. I would say that keeping in touch with these faculty members and doing research with them is a good idea if you want to match there. OP, honestly that is what I am assuming your friend did. If not, he didn't make good use of his potential to network.