Chances?

[BlueBerriess]

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[gyngyn]

Last year, 1,195 international applicants applied to US schools. 97 of them matriculated.
The mean MCAT for these matriculants was 515.3.
The AAMC recommends that we average multiple MCAT scores.

Before putting yourself at a disadvantage at any other school that might consider you, I strongly recommend that you contact Wayne for an assessment of the strength of your candidacy.

 

[mackie10]

I figure I'd like to chime in with a specific school I know that is pretty Canadian applicant friendly: Michigan State University's College of Osteopathic Medicine has the Canadian Initiative where they accept 20-25 Canadians. I know it's not MD, but it's an option!

http://www.com.msu.edu/Admissions/Canadian Initiative.pdf
International/Canadian - College of Osteopathic Medicine - Michigan State University

 

[BlueBerriess]

Last year, 1,195 international applicants applied to US schools. 97 of them matriculated.
The mean MCAT for these matriculants was 515.3.
The AAMC recommends that we average multiple MCAT scores.

Before putting yourself at a disadvantage at any other school that might consider you, I strongly recommend that you contact Wayne for an assessment of the strength of your candidacy.

I'll definitely contact them, should I just more or less say everything I posted here?

I figure I'd like to chime in with a specific school I know that is pretty Canadian applicant friendly: Michigan State University's College of Osteopathic Medicine has the Canadian Initiative where they accept 20-25 Canadians. I know it's not MD, but it's an option!

http://www.com.msu.edu/Admissions/Canadian Initiative.pdf
International/Canadian - College of Osteopathic Medicine - Michigan State University

Thank you for your input. I am considering this school as a back up if I cannot get into M.D. Wayne state med school also accepted like 20 canadians last year.

 

[jarednogeek]

I would contact the specific schools because right now you do not seem competitive.

 

[BlueBerriess]

I would contact the specific schools because right now you do not seem competitive.

Can I ask what you think is lacking? My thoughts is that my MCAT is pretty borderline at schools like Wayne, but I should have a well above average GPA. Not sure about ECs tbh.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Can I ask what you think is lacking? My thoughts is that my MCAT is pretty borderline at schools like Wayne, but I should have a well above average GPA. Not sure about ECs tbh.

Your MCAT(s) is/are low for a Canadian hoping to matriculate here (see gyggyn's post), and you've taken the MCAT three times, to boot.

 

[jarednogeek]

You have essentially a 505-506 MCAT score with 3 takes and no stand out EC’s. It’s possible for you to get in, but as a Canadian you should really have a stellar all around application. Because you are Canadian it will be much more difficult for you, and a 505 doesn’t help. Apply broadly with a very strategic school list MD/DO and just maybe you’ll get an acceptance. Definitely have a back up plan.

 

[mackie10]

I would definitely try to do some volunteering that is geared towards the community since Wayne State is pretty big on that (Wayne is situated in Detroit which has a very diverse population). Even though I shadowed here and there (during high school), I didn't have shadowing listed on my application. It's recommended but it not's required at WSU (Though being a Canadian applicant, you might want it included to stand out. Even if you can only get a couple hours or shadow a single doc). But I think what's most important about that though is that you should definitely make sure you can speak on behalf of your clinical experience. That is essentially a gateway for adcoms to understand that you know what it entails to work around physicians and patients. Also, I'd try to work on have some leadership activities while you're still working on your application for the following cycle! Hope this information helps!

 

[BlueBerriess]

You have essentially a 505-506 MCAT score with 3 takes and no stand out EC’s. It’s possible for you to get in, but as a Canadian you should really have a stellar all around application. Because you are Canadian it will be much more difficult for you, and a 505 doesn’t help. Apply broadly with a very strategic school list MD/DO and just maybe you’ll get an acceptance. Definitely have a back up plan.

Most schools don't seem to average mcat scores. Here's a credible site: Allopathic Medical School Multiple MCAT Scores | Pre-Health
Last updated: July 2018

I sorta just googled and found it. Wayne in particular takes the highest score, so I would say I'm still at a 508. Most schools seem to just look at the most recent or your best one. Since the site is another American university, they probably spent a lot of research making that list.

So would your opinion still be the same if you reconsider that I have a 508?
Also what do you mean by a "Stand out EC"? If you mean something "unique", then would you throw a couple examples at me so I get an idea what you would mean? If I need one or two "Stand out ECs" then I can definitely hunt some down.

 

[jarednogeek]

Most schools don't seem to average mcat scores. Here's a credible site: Allopathic Medical School Multiple MCAT Scores | Pre-Health
Last updated: July 2018

I sorta just googled and found it. Wayne in particular takes the highest score, so I would say I'm still at a 508. Most schools seem to just look at the most recent or your best one. Since the site is another American university, they probably spent a lot of research making that list.

So would your opinion still be the same if you reconsider that I have a 508?
Also what do you mean by a "Stand out EC"? If you mean something "unique", then would you throw a couple examples at me so I get an idea what you would mean? If I need one or two "Stand out ECs" then I can definitely hunt some down.

A 508 is not a bad MCAT, but as a Canadian you’ll be facing an uphill battle. As far as ec’s I mean multiple pub’s, made an app to battle malaria in 3rd world countries, started an organization to feed homeless people, something that makes people take a second look at your app and say wow. I don’t have anything unique but I’m just saying you’re facing a tough challenge. Ask the schools and see what they expect from Canadians.

 

[ciestar]

Most schools don't seem to average mcat scores. Here's a credible site: Allopathic Medical School Multiple MCAT Scores | Pre-Health
Last updated: July 2018

I sorta just googled and found it. Wayne in particular takes the highest score, so I would say I'm still at a 508. Most schools seem to just look at the most recent or your best one. Since the site is another American university, they probably spent a lot of research making that list.

So would your opinion still be the same if you reconsider that I have a 508?
Also what do you mean by a "Stand out EC"? If you mean something "unique", then would you throw a couple examples at me so I get an idea what you would mean? If I need one or two "Stand out ECs" then I can definitely hunt some down.

Just because they don’t say they average scores, an individual adcom can interpret your scores however they want. Additionally, a 508 isn’t cutting it as a Canadian. Internationals are expected to have way higher than average applications. (Even if WSU considers Canadians OOS, not international, you generally need to be above average as an OOS application to gain acceptance). Best best is to email them and gauge your competitiveness and go from there.

 

[candbgirl]

Most schools don't seem to average mcat scores. Here's a credible site: Allopathic Medical School Multiple MCAT Scores | Pre-Health
Last updated: July 2018

I sorta just googled and found it. Wayne in particular takes the highest score, so I would say I'm still at a 508. Most schools seem to just look at the most recent or your best one. Since the site is another American university, they probably spent a lot of research making that list.

So would your opinion still be the same if you reconsider that I have a 508?
Also what do you mean by a "Stand out EC"? If you mean something "unique", then would you throw a couple examples at me so I get an idea what you would mean? If I need one or two "Stand out ECs" then I can definitely hunt some down.

Well since you know so much..,

Did you read this thread? At least one ADCOM mentioned multiple MCATS so believe what you want. A 508 is an okay MCAT for maybe an AMERICAN. International applicants need to be stellar applucantsx.

 

[mackie10]

I do admit that while a 508 MCAT isn't bad for this school (and I'm pretty sure Wayne doesn't average MCATs because otherwise I would have been toast ), there are other Canadian applicants that do apply to Wayne that have higher stats than you do and still got waitlisted (you can look in the Wayne specific thread for this year, a Canadian applicant was on waitlist for awhile but had a 514 MCAT & 3.85 GPA). While I'm not sure it's a good idea to take the MCAT a fourth time, I think you should work on the things you can improve other areas of your applications like your ECs that focus on leadership and community outreach if you're still thinking about EDP at Wayne. Some leadership activity examples that people typically do are things such as: Being on the board of a premedical club on campus, being on the board of a volunteer organization, being a team captain of an athletic/academic team, etc. I'll reiterate that Wayne is super huge on community outreach (they have community service requirements when you're a student) and will definitely be asking you about what you can bring to the people of Detroit. If you don't have experiences that can speak on your behalf for that, they will likely take into consideration other applicants that already do. I'd definitely email Wayne though like most people on this thread are saying just so you get the legit info from their admissions department.

 

[Goro]

OP, can't sugar coat this, those aren't interesting stats. A 3x MCAT taker is going to be at a disadvantage for MD schools, especially as a Canadian.

Chances will be best with a broad app to the 14 or so DO schools that take Canadians.

 

[deleted480308]

I don’t understand the label “interesting”

 

[candbgirl]

I don’t understand the label “interesting”

Lots of people think their stats are interesting and they usually aren’t!

 

[BlueBerriess]

OP, can't sugar coat this, those aren't interesting stats. A 3x MCAT taker is going to be at a disadvantage for MD schools, especially as a Canadian.

Chances will be best with a broad app to the 14 or so DO schools that take Canadians.

There's a big difference between sugar coating and trying to be realistic/objective. I'm just trying to compare what I've managed to find out through credible sites with what people think. Multiple MCATs are less of a problem at some schools than others, looking at the link I sent. Sure an adcom could not align his views with what the school wanted, but that's pushing it. Is every adcom at every school going to do that? I would think more would align their views than not.

Canadians should only apply to schools where they're considered out of province compared to international. Sure an adcom could do the opposite of what the school wants them to do, but that's also just pushing it, similar to what I just mentioned.

I used the word interesting as in, these kind of stats with the MCAT breakdowns, gpa, and anything of a similar situation is nowhere to be found online. I just wanted advice, and yes, I already planned to apply to D.O like I mentioned in earlier replies, thank you.

With how you worded your comment, I think you're not exactly used to giving helpful advice to someone in a situation you are not certain about. However, everyone else has given great advice.

*Edited Grammar

 

[BlueBerriess]

I do admit that while a 508 MCAT isn't bad for this school (and I'm pretty sure Wayne doesn't average MCATs because otherwise I would have been toast ), there are other Canadian applicants that do apply to Wayne that have higher stats than you do and still got waitlisted (you can look in the Wayne specific thread for this year, a Canadian applicant was on waitlist for awhile but had a 514 MCAT & 3.85 GPA). While I'm not sure it's a good idea to take the MCAT a fourth time, I think you should work on the things you can improve other areas of your applications like your ECs that focus on leadership and community outreach if you're still thinking about EDP at Wayne. Some leadership activity examples that people typically do are things such as: Being on the board of a premedical club on campus, being on the board of a volunteer organization, being a team captain of an athletic/academic team, etc. I'll reiterate that Wayne is super huge on community outreach (they have community service requirements when you're a student) and will definitely be asking you about what you can bring to the people of Detroit. If you don't have experiences that can speak on your behalf for that, they will likely take into consideration other applicants that already do. I'd definitely email Wayne though like most people on this thread are saying just so you get the legit info from their admissions department.

Yea wayne state is a bit weird. It's mainly why I'm resorting to the forums to get actually good advice like yours. A buddy of mine applied recently and got in with a low gpa and similar mcat (forget is if it was 507, 508, or 509), not exactly sure about all his details of ECs. But I also know someone with higher stats, similar to what you mentioned (513 mcat), and didnt even get an interview, haha.

Regarding emailing Wayne, would you just include all the information I originally posted on the very first email to the medical school? or do that in a future reply?

 

[Goro]

There's a big difference between sugar coating and trying to be realistic/objective. I'm just trying to compare what I've managed to find out through credible sites with what people think. Multiple MCATs are less of a problem at some schools than others, looking at the link I sent. Sure an adcom could not align his views with what the school wanted, but that's pushing it. Is every adcom at every school going to do that? I would think more would align their views than not.

Canadians should only apply to schools where they're considered out of province compared to international. Sure an adcom could do the opposite of what the school wants them to do, but that's also just pushing it, similar to what I just mentioned.

I used the worse interesting as in, these kind of stats with the MCAT breakdowns, gpa, and anything of a similar situation is nowhere to be found online. I just wanted advice, and yes, I already planned to apply to D.O like I mentioned in earlier replies, thank you.

With how you worded your comment, I think you're not exactly used to giving helpful advice to someone in a situation you are not certain about. However, everyone else has given great advice.

I gave you realistic advice. People come here for that, not hugs and kisses. Not only are you a 3x MCAT taker (and to quote the wise Homeskool: taking the MCAT is like getting married: ideally you only do it once, and the more times you do it the worse you start looking to suitors with good judgment), but you have yet to improve your CARS score after three attempts to over the 50th %ile. You will simply be crowded out by stronger internationals, who still only get admitted in small numbers to US MD schools.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Chances are stronger at Canadian friendly DO schools. MD not so much. Average MCAT for Americans applying to MD schools is like 511. Average for international students are even higher because they have to outcompete US candidates. But you might have a real chance at some DO schools though. Average DO MCAT is usually between 500-505.

 

[mackie10]

Yea wayne state is a bit weird. It's mainly why I'm resorting to the forums to get actually good advice like yours. A buddy of mine applied recently and got in with a low gpa and similar mcat (forget is if it was 507, 508, or 509), not exactly sure about all his details of ECs. But I also know someone with higher stats, similar to what you mentioned (513 mcat), and didnt even get an interview, haha.

Regarding emailing Wayne, would you just include all the information I originally posted on the very first email to the medical school? or do that in a future reply?

I mean tbh, my stats are not the prettiest in comparison to the majority of others who have been accepted to this school (definitely on the lower end). I'd like to think it was the other aspects of my application that helped me stand out where my MCAT and GPA did not. That's why I hope that you working on those ECs will help do some good for you like it did for me!

You can put all the information you shared in the first post in the first email you send them (I don't think that would hurt you. Admissions are there to answer your questions and give you advice). I'd also make sure to be specific about asking their opinions/advice over your chances for EDP at Wayne since EDP in general is a bit of a different game due to being a gamble. Doing EDP means that an applicant may risk closing doors at other institutions since EDP limits you from applying to other schools for an entire cycle. But at the same time, it might be a good risk to take since Wayne's EDP has a high acceptance rate for those who apply. When I was still in my undergrad, we had a student from their EDP program speak to our premedical club. He said only a handful students applied to the Wayne's EDP that year but that all of them were fortunate to be accepted. I think you just have to be for certain whether this is a chance you want to take, but it's good you're going to talk to admissions just so you get a direct opinion from them.

 

[candbgirl]

“With how you worded your comment, I think you're not exactly used to giving helpful advice to someone in a situation you are not certain about. However, everyone else has given great advice”


Really? spend some time reading SDN before making blunt statements like that. Perhaps you just don’t like the advice or it doesn’t fit what you want.

Did anyone mention nonclinical volunteering? By that I mean service to those less fortunate that yourself in your community. You have to show your altruism to ADCOMS.

 

[BlueBerriess]

“With how you worded your comment, I think you're not exactly used to giving helpful advice to someone in a situation you are not certain about. However, everyone else has given great advice”


Really? spend some time reading SDN before making blunt statements like that. Perhaps you just don’t like the advice or it doesn’t fit what you want.

Did anyone mention nonclinical volunteering? By that I mean service to those less fortunate that yourself in your community. You have to show your altruism to ADCOMS.

That's rich coming from someone who took two comments to actually say something helpful (even though someone already mentioned that). Thanks anyways.

 

[BlueBerriess]

I gave you realistic advice. People come here for that, not hugs and kisses. Not only are you a 3x MCAT taker (and to quote the wise Homeskool: taking the MCAT is like getting married: ideally you only do it once, and the more times you do it the worse you start looking to suitors with good judgment), but you have yet to improve your CARS score after three attempts to over the 50th %ile. You will simply be crowded out by stronger internationals, who still only get admitted in small numbers to US MD schools.

Well this is a lot more informative compared to what you previously mentioned, big thanks! I like the analogy haha

 

[Ad2b]

There's a big difference between sugar coating and trying to be realistic/objective. I'm just trying to compare what I've managed to find out through credible sites with what people think.

TWO sitting adcoms are telling you that you have almost no chance into US allopathic med school because you are Canadian

YOU do not have the CARS score, from my understanding, to be accepted to Canadian schools (hence your interest in what you perceive to be "easier" US schools?? just asking, I truly don't know)

I'm sorry to be so blunt but if schools have the choice to admit Americans specifically, those that are permanent residents or citizens of the United States, they're going to choose US over a Canadian without stellar stats. Which you do not have.

Not one of your MCAT scores is stellar, in fact two of them are identical just swapped between sections. And I believe, from my Canadian friends who have matriculated and graduated from Canadian medical schools, is that your CARS scores are too low for Canadian medical schools.

I am not an adcom. At least 2 of the people who chimed in here, are and possibly a 3rd (just not sure on Sb or Cand)

EDITED TO ADD:

FWIW, I am "not" a great candidate either despite have a great GPA post bacc (30 years post bacc) and 10,000 hours volunteering + other ECs + leadership at a global level + + +

Why? Because my 1st MCAT score was @#$ and I should have voided it and I am older than most all of you.

So, the best thing I, or anyone can do, is put my best foot forward (in my case, work very hard to get a stellar MCAT score) and apply.

I've already been told that I have little chance and I have decided to roll the dice anyway.

It's okay to do that yourself as long as you know - it's a long shot.

 

[BlueBerriess]

TWO sitting adcoms are telling you that you have almost no chance into US allopathic med school because you are Canadian

YOU do not have the CARS score, from my understanding, to be accepted to Canadian schools (hence your interest in what you perceive to be "easier" US schools?? just asking, I truly don't know)

I'm sorry to be so blunt but if schools have the choice to admit Americans specifically, those that are permanent residents or citizens of the United States, they're going to choose US over a Canadian without stellar stats. Which you do not have.

Not one of your MCAT scores is stellar, in fact two of them are identical just swapped between sections. And I believe, from my Canadian friends who have matriculated and graduated from Canadian medical schools, is that your CARS scores are too low for Canadian medical schools.

I am not an adcom. At least 2 of the people who chimed in here, are and possibly a 3rd (just not sure on Sb or Cand)

EDITED TO ADD:

FWIW, I am "not" a great candidate either despite have a great GPA post bacc (30 years post bacc) and 10,000 hours volunteering + other ECs + leadership at a global level + + +

Why? Because my 1st MCAT score was @#$ and I should have voided it and I am older than most all of you.

So, the best thing I, or anyone can do, is put my best foot forward (in my case, work very hard to get a stellar MCAT score) and apply.

I've already been told that I have little chance and I have decided to roll the dice anyway.

It's okay to do that yourself as long as you know - it's a long shot.

You're more or less right with everything you said.

14ish schools in Canada, and non-geniuses have no chances at any out of province schools. Most of these schools take students only from their own province, and if they do take out of province students, they only take under 10 with something around an average gpa of 4.0 and a high CARS MCAT. GPA is a bigger deal in canada because schools are more or less equal to one another, pretty standardized education. There's 6 Med schools in Ontario, and they're going to be big on GPA or the MCAT.

One of them only takes you if you're from a rural area up north, so there's only 5 someone like me can apply to.
One has a 129 CARS minimum to EVEN APPLY.
One has a 129 CARS average (they only look at the CARS section) but you also need to do CASPer which is like 30% of their app, big unknown variable there.
Two of them do not use the MCAT in their scoring system, thus their gpa average is always between 3.96-4.0 and use ECs or CASPer to compensate. (You can imagine that anyone who talks about how they got into these two schools always talk about an insane amount of ECs)
The last one doesn't exactly list their averages or expectations, but they consider all three things, and when you look into the type of people who actually get in, the general consensus seems to be around a 515ish mcat, 3.90ish gpa, and lots of research and pubs in their ECs.

The biggest problem is, when these schools list out the type of people who get into their schools. You see around 20%, or even more sometimes, of the class are grad students that are mostly PhDs (which get big GPA boosts by the schools and more Research relevant ECs). There is really not many spots to apply for. Everything is as competitive as top American med schools, but are clearly not as good of a school.

Generally, no one thinks american medical schools are "Easy", but when you break it down to the schools that are Canadian friendly (Canadians are out of state instead of international), you tend to see the people getting in from Canada have much much lower stats. I've straight out seen this from people I know. That's how people come to the conclusion of "easier", but not "easy".
Tho I'm pretty sure everyone thinks D.O is real easy to get into.

Personally, I really dont care about whether I get into M.D or D.O. They both get to be doctors. My post was more or less to see what people thought about the EDP choice I was considering, along with if anyone had experience with seeing Canadians get into the friendlier schools. I can only find like 10-15 canadian friendly M.D schools lol (which is as much medical schools in all of Canada, RIP).

 

[Ad2b]

My post was more or less to see what people thought about the EDP choice I was considering

Everyone that I know who did EDP had outstanding stats: GPA, MCAT, research, ECs, volunteering and basically, had saved a developing country from implosion, kind of thing.

I would not recommend it, at all in your case.

As I said, you have to decide whether to roll the dice with your stats for both MD and DO and see what happens or not. I do not know how old you are but taking time away from all this might help...

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do 🙂

 

[nonamesleft]

I am a Canadian wanting to study in the US. [...] EDP wayne state
cGPA = 3.9666 (finishing degree this year)

MCAT 1 = 501 (127/122/129/123)
MCAT 2 = 508 (129/121/130/128) <--- TERRIBLE CARS
MCAT 3 = 508 (128/124/129/127) <--- MORE BALANCED

~ 500 hours Research

~ 1000 hours pizza store customer service

~ 150 hours hospital clinical support

~ 100 hours peer tutoring

~ 800 hours of paid tutoring by university (for second year biochemistry and cell biology)

Nothing in this application stands out as "excellent." For EDP, it's not just you committing to a program, it's also a program deciding that you're an asset to them, as EDP is their chance to lock you in prior to other schools having a chance at you. Unfortunately, I don't see anything in your app that screams out to a school that they must have you. Applying EDP would most likely have you rolled into the regular admissions, and also set you back in applying to other schools that you may have had a shot at had you applied early.

Most schools don't seem to average mcat scores. Here's a credible site: Allopathic Medical School Multiple MCAT Scores | Pre-Health
Last updated: July 2018

I sorta just googled and found it. Wayne in particular takes the highest score, so I would say I'm still at a 508. Most schools seem to just look at the most recent or your best one. Since the site is another American university, they probably spent a lot of research making that list.

So would your opinion still be the same if you reconsider that I have a 508?
Also what do you mean by a "Stand out EC"? If you mean something "unique", then would you throw a couple examples at me so I get an idea what you would mean? If I need one or two "Stand out ECs" then I can definitely hunt some down.

It's not what they "say" but what they do. They may not average your scores for adcom meetings, but your file reviewers will see all your scores. What they do during that file review is what gets you the interview. Your file doesn't go to adcom meeting unless your reviewers find you favourable in some way.