change of career?

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[MountainPharmD]

Thought about it many times myself. I keep coming back to the same thought...Will I be doing an better if I switch? Is being an MD going to any better? You have to look at the total price of getting there. The years of lost salary as a Pharmacist, tons of additional debt and the time involved, all for what?

Take a look at your average general practioner. By the time they pay their student loans, office rent, staff salary, and malpractice insurance they do not take home any more than a Pharmacist does.

Be honest with yourself, everyone wants to be a pediatric brain surgeon or some other impossible specialty. If you are already a Pharmacist with debt and time against you a general practioner is what you likely will be. I do not think it is worth it.

What might be worth your time is helping to advancing the profession of Pharmacy. Many states have collaborative practice agreements. Several chains are experimenting with pharmacy care centers and disease state management.

 

[VanduchiPharmD]

Well, I am 25 and I graduated about a year and a half ago...

I am $120,000 in debt, I will not be paid off when I am about 55 (I plan to get it done by 45 or 50, but that depends on the amount of children and expensive cars I buy).

If you work retail you should be making over $100,000 a year, so six to seven hundred bucks a month should not be all that big of a drop.

If you go to DO school you are looking at a few more years in school and a TON more in debt. What will the pay increase be versus the debt increase? I know in retail we are overworked occasionally, but have you considered a different company, I have worked for a couple in my short time and find that some are much better than the other!

Perhaps a change of scenery is all you need, but if you are set on DO school, follow your dream, you can work part time as a pharmacist and get a DO, some of the best doctors I know are PharmD, MD/DO/ARNP etc.

Good luck in whatever you do!

 

[SobeGekko]

i graduated with my pharmd some years ago. lately i have been very unhappy with my work and potential career advancement. im sure many of us feel this way... anybody switch careers or know of someone who has? any advice?

I'll keep this short because I've written a bit about my situation in my other posts. Look them up if you want details. But the skinny is that I am and MD who completed about 1/2 of a family medicine residency when I decided doctoring was not what I wanted with my life. I have since applied to and been accepted to pharm school starting next fall.

If you made it through pharm school and you desire to complete med school, enough, you will make it. But be forewarned that to change careers is a BIG decision! Med school is 4 yrs with large tuition and very very few students work on top of the med school load (in my class there was a 36 yr old Physician assistant with 6 kids who did work part time on the side). After school, you're looking at a minimum of 3 yrs of residency working a ton (60-80 hrs/wk) for a salary of 40-45k. Peds is a three year residency after which there are some opportunities to specialize further through fellowships in cards, neurology, etc. Most primary care docs including peds make 130-150k (after malpractice) and specialists more. I'd be lying to say that those 7 yrs (minimun) is not a tough grind, and average student debt at the end of that is about 150k. That being said, if you really think its right for you, go for it, but I'd try to be as sure as possible (ie talk to med students, residents, attendings and shadow them in their environment if possible).

Good luck as you go forward! I made a big change because I wanted to be happier in my career and so far with no regrets.

 

[twester]

I'm a far-from-seasoned PharmD student, so take this for what it's worth...

It seems to me that pharmacy as a career has a lot of options. That's one thing that attracted me to the profession in the first place. Now, if the OP wants to be a pediatrician, he or she should pursue that. But if the OP just wants to work with kids, that's completely possible with a PharmD. Isn't it? Of course it is.

 

[FamilyMD]

Here's my take...you only live once (cliche yes, but really think what that means). You get one go round in life, you will spend the rest of your life wondering what if...... Having said that, peds is the lowest paid medical specialty but will still pay more than pharmacy (average $150k). Financially, probably doesn't make since, philosophically go for it!

 

[ZpackSux]

i graduated with my pharmd some years ago. lately i have been very unhappy with my work and potential career advancement. im sure many of us feel this way... understaffed, overworked, never get to use the knowledge that we gained in pharmacy school. It seems that all that matters is how fast we can crank out a prescription and how big of a bonus we can land our managers come end of the year. lately i have been thinking about a change of career. im thinking about applying to the DO school in town. I always have wanted to be a pediatrician but i told myself i was not smart enough to do it so i choose pharmacy instead. but if anyone can make it through pharmacy school then the same could be said about medical school. (i think this maybee why im unhappy?... not my first career choice) but heres my question i just turned 30 and still am suffering with student loans from my pharmd degree. do you think it will pay off by getting a DO degree? Im afraid id never get my loans paid back im already 100k still indebt. Ive thought about other clinical jobs in pharmacy but they seem the same. anybody switch careers or know of someone who has? any advice?

Instead switching a career, I opened businesses.

Then again, someone said it..you only live once..so go out and pursue what it is you want. But remember:

You'll invest about 8 years getting your DO and residency completed.. if you don't work during that period..that's about $1,000,000 of potential income (salary + benefits) you will lose out on. Even if you work 50% of that time, it still doesn't make any difference because that's additional 50% that you can do now on top of the full time job you have.

Add another $100,000+ to the tuition but you can subtract $150,000 you'll earn as a resident.

Imagine, if you were to invest $1,000,000 to a business right now... where will that take you in 8 years?

I've always found the cliche' "You have to do what makes you happy" but I also realized there aint no amount of work that will make me happy...unless it golf.. and if I had to work at golf, I'm sure it'll be no fun. But work does fund my life and hobbies and I'm a very very happy person.

I do find those professionals who pursue happiness in their work very lucky...like athletes, entertainers, artists..etc.

I wanna be like Tiger Woods...but that's a topic for another day.

My take away message? Work does not define who I am nor do I use my profession as a vehicle of challenge nor guage my selfworthiness. It's the outside of work that defines who I am. But I do give my best when I'm working as a pharmacist.

You may want to also consider MHA or MBA which doesn't have to put a halt to your pharmacy practice...but in 3 to 4 years, you can be on your way to becoming a hospital administrator. It's a challenging work but with your clinical background, you'll have a leg up on others. Most COO and CEO make a lot more than a pharmacist..and have 40 to 50% bounus at the end of the year. Even at a small hospital...they take home over $200,000 per year.

And never work nights and weekends.

 

[FamilyMD]

You may want to also consider MHA or MBA which doesn't have to put a halt to your pharmacy practice...but in 3 to 4 years, you can be on your way to becoming a hospital administrator. It's a challenging work but with your clinical background, you'll have a leg up on others. Most COO and CEO make a lot more than a pharmacist..and have 40 to 50% bounus at the end of the year. Even at a small hospital...they take home over $200,000 per year.

And never work nights and weekends.

As an MD/MBA involved in administrative work, I have NEVER seen a pharm as hospital CEO. You may head the Pharm dept, but I doubt you could head the whole hospital. The greatest trend over the past 6-7 years is MD/MBA's are being sought out for hospital president and CEO's quite simply b/c we understand all dept's...rads, ER, surg, not just one (such as pharm). I guess there could be some rinky-dink hospital where a pharmD/MBA would be better as president then a grand-fathered in person who has no clinical aspect. Average salary of a physician executive last year was about $270k/yr.

 

[ZpackSux]

As an MD/MBA involved in administrative work, I have NEVER seen a pharm as hospital CEO. You may head the Pharm dept, but I doubt you could head the whole hospital. The greatest trend over the past 6-7 years is MD/MBA's are being sought out for hospital president and CEO's quite simply b/c we understand all dept's...rads, ER, surg, not just one (such as pharm). I guess there could be some rinky-dink hospital where a pharmD/MBA would be better as president then a grand-fathered in person who has no clinical aspect. Average salary of a physician executive last year was about $270k/yr.

You're right there aren't many PharmD/MBA in a CEO role...but/and
not many PharmDs pursue MHA...but I know 2 PharmD/MHA who are CEOs..and they are not rinky dink hospitals... and No,,I've never worked for an MD/MBA adminstrator before..and I've worked at about 10 hospitals..and not rinky dink hospitals.

I do see many RN/MHA CEOs.. and a friend of mine is CFO at a 50 bed rinky dinky hospital...his CEO who is an RN/MHA has an annual salary+bonus at $250,000+ which pisses off my CFO buddy..

 

[VCU07]

i graduated with my pharmd some years ago. lately i have been very unhappy with my work and potential career advancement. im sure many of us feel this way... understaffed, overworked, never get to use the knowledge that we gained in pharmacy school. It seems that all that matters is how fast we can crank out a prescription and how big of a bonus we can land our managers come end of the year. lately i have been thinking about a change of career. im thinking about applying to the DO school in town. I always have wanted to be a pediatrician but i told myself i was not smart enough to do it so i choose pharmacy instead. but if anyone can make it through pharmacy school then the same could be said about medical school. (i think this maybee why im unhappy?... not my first career choice) but heres my question i just turned 30 and still am suffering with student loans from my pharmd degree. do you think it will pay off by getting a DO degree? Im afraid id never get my loans paid back im already 100k still indebt. Ive thought about other clinical jobs in pharmacy but they seem the same. anybody switch careers or know of someone who has? any advice?

I have also been in the same boat. I seriously considered changing my second year of pharmacy school, but financially it just wasn't worth it. During rotations, specifically acute care, I got to use everything I learned in school in a more clinial sense. I enjoyed it much more than working in the community setting. However, it still goes back to pharmacists really having to convince the team of what is best. I dont particularly like having to convince people into doing something. Perhaps that will change in the future. In addition to acute care, you can go into academia, which will allow you to utilize your knowledge. Moral of the story: there are tons of options other than retail. People make decisions that they have to live with. Just find a way to make it work.

 

[ZpackSux]

As an MD/MBA involved in administrative work, I have NEVER seen a pharm as hospital CEO.

Travel and broaden your horizon....

 

[FamilyMD]

You're right there aren't many PharmD/MBA in a CEO role...but/and
not many PharmDs pursue MHA...but I know 2 PharmD/MHA who are CEOs..and they are not rinky dink hospitals... and No,,I've never worked for an MD/MBA adminstrator before..and I've worked at about 10 hospitals..and not rinky dink hospitals.

I do see many RN/MHA CEOs.. and a friend of mine is CFO at a 50 bed rinky dinky hospital...his CEO who is an RN/MHA has an annual salary+bonus at $250,000+ which pisses off my CFO buddy..

yeah, yeah, yeah, and I have a friend who heard from her cousin's uncle twice removed buddy's husband that.....What's the name of these hospitals headed by a pharmacist please.......

Very simple request.

 

[ZpackSux]

yeah, yeah, yeah, and I have a friend who heard from her cousin's uncle twice removed buddy's husband that.....What's the name of these hospitals headed by a pharmacist please.......

Very simple request.

Gladly... Send me your office phone # and give me your name in PM. I'll tell you who they are and where they are located.

 

[nikkai]

Rinky dink, na-na na na na na....

Rinky dink, na-na, na na na na...

I may be dating myself with this:

But think of the above in terms of "Phe-no-menon... na-na, na na na na"

I'm delirious

 

[FamilyMD]

Gladly... Send me your office phone # and give me your name in PM. I'll tell you who they are and where they are located.

Wow, you would have thought I asked for their SSN or bra size..."me thinks he protesth too much". For you not familiar w/Shakespeare....I think this poster is bull****h us.

 

[ZpackSux]

Wow, you would have thought I asked for their SSN or bra size..."me thinks he protesth too much". For you not familiar w/Shakespeare....I think this poster is bull****h us.

As suggested, I will leave now and post no more, I only posted to correct a blatant error.

No, you asked for hospitals..which discloses their identity.. so it's only fair I know who you are before disclosing that info. It's a small price to pay for your feeble curiosity.

No, you don't "think" I'm BSing.. you "wish" I was BSing.. because it only proves you're wrong..

You can stop being wrong "again" by keeping your promise of "post no more."

Don't let the door hit you on your behind.. bye now.

 

[FamilyMD]

No, you asked for hospitals..which discloses their identity.. so it's only fair I know who you are before disclosing that info. It's a small price to pay for your feeble curiosity.

No, you don't "think" I'm BSing.. you "wish" I was BSing.. because it only proves you're wrong..

You can stop being wrong "again" by keeping your promise of "post no more."

Don't let the door hit you on your behind.. bye now.

LOL, since when is the identity of a hospital president a secret
You can punch in any hospital's website and it'll tell you its president, ohhhh, super guarded info there. Think its time to lay off the propofol, you're delusional again, freakin *****

 

[ZpackSux]

LOL, since when is the identity of a hospital president a secret
You can punch in any hospital's website and it'll tell you its president, ohhhh, super guarded info there. Think its time to lay off the propofol, you're delusional again, freakin *****

LOL..oh stop. It's simple.. tell me who you are in "private" and I'll tell you where those CEOs are... The ball is in your court..so hit it back.

I like Propofol.. and have written a few Propofol protocols.. but haven't seen much delusion..rather seen many kinda passed out. So you need it..

So when all else fails.. call em a "*****."

Boy..I bet the insurance company you work for sure would love to see you behave this way online.

 

[njac]

You're right there aren't many PharmD/MBA in a CEO role...but/and
not many PharmDs pursue MHA...but I know 2 PharmD/MHA who are CEOs..and they are not rinky dink hospitals... and No,,I've never worked for an MD/MBA adminstrator before..and I've worked at about 10 hospitals..and not rinky dink hospitals.

I do see many RN/MHA CEOs.. and a friend of mine is CFO at a 50 bed rinky dinky hospital...his CEO who is an RN/MHA has an annual salary+bonus at $250,000+ which pisses off my CFO buddy..

I wonder if you're talking about my stepdad... he's a RN/MHA CEO of a rinky dink rural hospital in texas (except I'm quite sure he doesn't make that much. the CEO of our state hospital only makes about $250K here in NM). worked his way up from a certificate nurse, I think an AA, and then the MHA. I want to say he doesn't have a BSN. but he's been CNO, COO, asst-CEO and CEO if several hospitals over the last few years and I see no reason why a pharmacist couldn't take the same route.


I say follow your heart, if you really think going and being a DO is going to make you happy, go for it. but like others, I know that work isn't going to make me happy (but it has the ability tomake me unhappy) just because of my personality. good luck!

 

[ZpackSux]

I wonder if you're talking about my stepdad... he's a RN/MHA CEO of a rinky dink rural hospital in texas (except I'm quite sure he doesn't make that much. the CEO of our state hospital only makes about $250K here in NM). worked his way up from a certificate nurse, I think an AA, and then the MHA. I want to say he doesn't have a BSN. but he's been CNO, COO, asst-CEO and CEO if several hospitals over the last few years and I see no reason why a pharmacist couldn't take the same route.


I say follow your heart, if you really think going and being a DO is going to make you happy, go for it. but like others, I know that work isn't going to make me happy (but it has the ability tomake me unhappy) just because of my personality. good luck!

no and no I wouldn't disclose his identity even if I knew him.

You're right, the OP should follow his heart...but hope he/she'll weigh different options.

 

[nikkai]

LOL, since when is the identity of a hospital president a secret
You can punch in any hospital's website and it'll tell you its president, ohhhh, super guarded info there. Think its time to lay off the propofol, you're delusional again, freakin *****

Could we get a MOD here, please?

Before rocks are thrown and kicking and scream starts?

 

[MountainPharmD]

Could we get a MOD here, please?

Before rocks are thrown and kicking and scream starts?

Why do you want to ruin the fun? Things are just getting good!!!!

 

[ZpackSux]

Why do you want to ruin the fun? Things are just getting good!!!!

what'd ya mean it's just getting good... thought it was over and done.

he never sent me his info.. I'm ready to tell him who these pharmacist turned administrators are...

 

[crimson1566]

Whats a MHA? Would a MBA be worth getting, it's an extra year at my school, I'd be doing it while working since i've graduated already.

 

[ZpackSux]

Master of Health Administration.

MBA is a boader degree which will allow you to pursue different industries.

But MHA will track you towards hospital administration. Most of the Hospital administrators, COO and CEO now have MHA.

 

[off2skl]

Since it sounds like one of your main "complaints" is the lack of use of your clinical education. Have you considered doing a pharmacy residency? It would be a pay cut durign the year of residency and you still may not make as much as retail afterward, but it may give you the more clinical career path you want without the extra debt and YEARS of medical school.

 

[sdn1977]

Wow, you would have thought I asked for their SSN or bra size..."me thinks he protesth too much". For you not familiar w/Shakespeare....I think this poster is bull****h us.

Family....I would remind you of the TOS of posting. Zpak has requested you pm him personally & he will be happy to provide you with the information.

He has already indicated he chooses not to publish this information on a public forum for whatever privacy reasons he does not need to disclose to you nor anyone else.

You have had to be reminded far too many times to be civil when on this fourm and tend to take a thread off on your own tirade. You are very welcome to contribute, as you did in the beginning and you are welcome to share your opinions on whatever topic you choose. However, you must remain civil and be respectful of everyone's choice to keep their own experiences, associations & friendships - both personal & professional, anynomous.

 

[vardenafil]

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[sdn1977]

Since it sounds like one of your main "complaints" is the lack of use of your clinical education. Have you considered doing a pharmacy residency? It would be a pay cut durign the year of residency and you still may not make as much as retail afterward, but it may give you the more clinical career path you want without the extra debt and YEARS of medical school.



can you go back and do residencies even though youve been in the workplace for 3 years?

Yes...you can....or a fellowship

 

[helpfuldoc2b]

I'll keep this short because I've written a bit about my situation in my other posts. Look them up if you want details. But the skinny is that I am and MD who completed about 1/2 of a family medicine residency when I decided doctoring was not what I wanted with my life. I have since applied to and been accepted to pharm school starting next fall.

If you made it through pharm school and you desire to complete med school, enough, you will make it. But be forewarned that to change careers is a BIG decision! Med school is 4 yrs with large tuition and very very few students work on top of the med school load (in my class there was a 36 yr old Physician assistant with 6 kids who did work part time on the side). After school, you're looking at a minimum of 3 yrs of residency working a ton (60-80 hrs/wk) for a salary of 40-45k. Peds is a three year residency after which there are some opportunities to specialize further through fellowships in cards, neurology, etc. Most primary care docs including peds make 130-150k (after malpractice) and specialists more. I'd be lying to say that those 7 yrs (minimun) is not a tough grind, and average student debt at the end of that is about 150k. That being said, if you really think its right for you, go for it, but I'd try to be as sure as possible (ie talk to med students, residents, attendings and shadow them in their environment if possible).

Good luck as you go forward! I made a big change because I wanted to be happier in my career and so far with no regrets.

Wow, what's your story, were you depressed or ill that you dropped your MD title and 10 years of school to go back to Pharm school? Just curoius, what was the real push, what was the real reason. You could of always went into a different residency and got paid for it instead of paying new tuition to get a lower degree. Why not a post-doc in pharmacology, or a residency in pathology? What was your thinking process when you made your decision and do you honestly regret it?

 

[SobeGekko]

Wow, what's your story, were you depressed or ill that you dropped your MD title and 10 years of school to go back to Pharm school? Just curoius, what was the real push, what was the real reason. You could of always went into a different residency and got paid for it instead of paying new tuition to get a lower degree. Why not a post-doc in pharmacology, or a residency in pathology? What was your thinking process when you made your decision and do you honestly regret it?

No not depressed or ill. I was half way through residency, and along with my wife, also a resident, considering practice options and thinking about what my work life day in and day out would be like, I realized I didn't much want my job for the next 30 or so years. I took a leave of absence, and my wife was just coming off maternity leave with our first child, and with careful thought, I eventually resigned.

What I didn't like about medicine was the ever consistent diagnostic dilemmas (and specifically massaging medically pertinent info out of difficult pts while being empathetic and gauging how they wanted to proceed with their medical care), inconsistent and unpredictable hours, and being on call.

I thought about other residencies with more stable hours, less call, less direct patient contact, but what it came down to was this: I'm rather philosophical about what's important in my life, that philosophy play a large role in my decision making, and it dictated that I do something else. First, financially we were OK because of my spouse's earning potential. Second, we just had a newborn and after the long haul of med school and residency, we were ready to settle down near family, live a real life with real life work hours (not those of a devoted resident). Third, I chose family practice because I (here I stress that this is my opinion not shared by everyone) felt family practice in the most needed, and benevolent specialty and that a good lifestyle, high paycheck, or prestige of choosing another specialty was not important to me. I wanted to do a personally meaningful job.

Thus, moving my family away to pursue another residency was not appealing. There was also no specialty particularly interesting to me. My interest kept returning to clinical pharmacy and thoughts of how I could impact the profession in my region. So yes, it's another 4 yrs of school, and yes I'll be paying more tuition, and yes lots of people have told me I'm crazy and disapointing, including my parents, but my family is not going to starve. We'll get to have the kind of family life important to me and wife. We'll get to live where we want since there is a pharm school locally. And perhaps most important, I'm pursuing this change with an inner drive/interest that I've only recently discovered after drifting somewhat aimlessly through med school.

In short, I know what I want out of life and work more than I have before and my future is in pharmacy and I have no regrets.

 

[Sosumi]

Wow, what's your story, were you depressed or ill that you dropped your MD title and 10 years of school to go back to Pharm school? Just curoius, what was the real push, what was the real reason. You could of always went into a different residency and got paid for it instead of paying new tuition to get a lower degree. Why not a post-doc in pharmacology, or a residency in pathology? What was your thinking process when you made your decision and do you honestly regret it?

Contrary to your belief, not everyone considers the M.D. the end all and be all of degrees. Prestige isn't as high priority to everyone. My cousin was in the same situation as SobeGekko once was. He did a family medicine residency but battled bouts of major depression. He eventually finished his residency but keeps telling me that if he could do it over, he'd have gone to pharmacy school and been much happier.

 

[T1ar1a]

op

You should attend the annual meetings and check out the position placement services to see what's out there. There are residencies and fellowships that are offered from universities, industry, and coorporate (pbm). Check those out for further career advancement.

Making a decision about your career is very tough. I don't envy your situation. But I hope you make the right one.

And think about why you're doing what you're doing.

You want a job that will allow you to live a happy life. At least that's what I want. Some of us, on the otherhand, can turn our life into our work.

 

[helpfuldoc2b]

Contrary to your belief, not everyone considers the M.D. the end all and be all of degrees. Prestige isn't as high priority to everyone. My cousin was in the same situation as SobeGekko once was. He did a family medicine residency but battled bouts of major depression. He eventually finished his residency but keeps telling me that if he could do it over, he'd have gone to pharmacy school and been much happier.

But wasnt it his source of unhappiness his depression or was it studying medicine. I mean is he still depressed. Wouldnt he still been ill and depressed if he studied Pharmacy instead of Medicine?

 

[djquickfingers]

You're right there aren't many PharmD/MBA in a CEO role...but/and
not many PharmDs pursue MHA...but I know 2 PharmD/MHA who are CEOs..and they are not rinky dink hospitals... and No,,I've never worked for an MD/MBA adminstrator before..and I've worked at about 10 hospitals..and not rinky dink hospitals.

I do see many RN/MHA CEOs.. and a friend of mine is CFO at a 50 bed rinky dinky hospital...his CEO who is an RN/MHA has an annual salary+bonus at $250,000+ which pisses off my CFO buddy..

Just food for thought, the Director and CEO of St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital, probably one of the world's leading research and teachign facilities, is a PharmD, so anything is possible. Its not the degree but your passion and how hard one works to get where they want to go. Good LUck!!!

 

[pinkyrx]

Just food for thought, the Director and CEO of St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital, probably one of the world's leading research and teachign facilities, is a PharmD, so anything is possible. Its not the degree but your passion and how hard one works to get where they want to go. Good LUck!!!

I was about to post the same thing.
http://www.stjude.org/search/0,2616,582_3161_16585,00.html

William E. Evans Named New St. Jude Director

Former St. Jude Director Arthur W. Nienhuis, M.D., and George Simon, chair of the St. Jude Board of Governors, recently announced that William E. Evans, Pharm.D., assumed the position of St. Jude Director and CEO Nov. 1, 2004. Evans was previously the hospital's scientific director.

Nienhuis will continue his research at St. Jude in the area of gene therapy.

Evans is the fifth St. Jude director since the hospital opened in 1962. He joined the St. Jude staff in 1976, and for the past 25 years his research has focused on the pharmacodynamics and pharmacogenomics of anticancer agents. He has published more than 250 research articles and has received two MERIT Awards from the National Institutes of Health (NCI) and various awards from national professional societies for his research. In 2002, he was elected to the Institute of Medicine, a component of the National Academy of Sciences.