Changes to the MCAT

[Beta Cell]

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Let's discuss the proposed changes to the MCAT! I would personally like to thank all involved for declaring that the MCAT will be changed no earlier than 2013.

 

[texahn]

?

 

[BluntSurgeon]

What are you talking about man? Since when was the MCAT going to be changed? Other than the paper-->electronic conversion that happened a few years ago, I don't know of any changes.

 

[Revilla]

What are you talking about man? Since when was the MCAT going to be changed? Other than the paper-->electronic conversion that happened a few years ago, I don't know of any changes.

There's some sort of committee researching changing the MCAT in some way. There was an article about it on SDN a while back. Anyone still have it?

 

[BluntSurgeon]

There's some sort of committee researching changing the MCAT in some way. There was an article about it on SDN a while back. Anyone still have it?

I personally think the test is great as it is. Perfect balance of problem solving and regurgitation. I also think the length is perfect too. However, that's just my opinion, and probably just me not wanting my predecessors taking an easier test since I had to work so hard to do well on it.

 

[Bryson17]

I personally think the test is great as it is. Perfect balance of problem solving and regurgitation. I also think the length is perfect too. However, that's just my opinion, and probably just me not wanting my predecessors taking an easier test since I had to work so hard to do well on it.

I just read an article today:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2009/090604.htm

It's a very vague article. As I was reading it, I imagined some type of oral exam maybe? That just sounds ridiculous though. What could the changes that it's talking about possibly be? More subjects? Less verbal?!!

 

[witness23]

the exam is obviously going towards less orgo, but thats all a dude knows

 

[BlueElmo]

I suggest scrap O-Chem and put in more biology.

 

[icekream]

hey guys,

i just saw this thread and thought id contribute. the chair of the curriculum board of a medical school in the chicagoland area came to speak to my UG institution. he was telling us about proposed changes to the mcat. one of which was... get this... an ORAL EXAMINATION! they are really seeing now a days people who are in medical school who completely lack communication skills whatsoever. these are the people who become doctors who patients dont like, dont get along in teams, and frankly get sued. the oral examinations would serve to eliminate bookworms who live at the library and study for 2 years just to get a 45T.

i guess you could argue this is what the interview for, but this is what the dr told us. he also told us of moving away from orgo, cuz in his words "when the heck do you need to know how to run a gringard reaction as a doctor?!"

kream

 

[Excelsius]

hey guys,

i just saw this thread and thought id contribute. the chair of the curriculum board of a medical school in the chicagoland area came to speak to my UG institution. he was telling us about proposed changes to the mcat. one of which was... get this... an ORAL EXAMINATION! they are really seeing now a days people who are in medical school who completely lack communication skills whatsoever. these are the people who become doctors who patients dont like, dont get along in teams, and frankly get sued. the oral examinations would serve to eliminate bookworms who live at the library and study for 2 years just to get a 45T.

i guess you could argue this is what the interview for, but this is what the dr told us. he also told us of moving away from orgo, cuz in his words "when the heck do you need to know how to run a gringard reaction as a doctor?!"

kream

Judging by what many students in Allo say, this is a great idea. In fact, the oral examination should involve an ethical question, such as: What do you think about a classmate who attempts suicide by jumping out of the window?

 

[Birdsbeak]

Let's discuss the proposed changes to the MCAT! I would personally like to thank all involved for declaring that the MCAT will be changed no earlier than 2013.

Note the year 2013. Who cares? That date is so far off most of us will be halfway through med school by then.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Judging by what many students in Allo say, this is a great idea. In fact, the oral examination should involve an ethical question, such as: What do you think about a classmate who attempts suicide by jumping out of the window?

I'd definitely eliminate the writing section. It's worthless. Organic chemistry is just the freaking devil. I hate it even more now that I'm in med school and realize that everything beyond the first 2-3 weeks of orgo 1 is totally useless. I'd remove those things and add in a lot more physiology and anatomy. Maybe some more genetics, too.

 

[anbuitachi]

i definitely dont think oral exams are great ideas. its too subjective. i believe mcat is great cause its a standardized exam

 

[NJDIF]

an oral part is ridiculous.

-if you want to weed out the weirdos, then thats precisely what school interviews are for.

-the test was just shortened to 5 hours. now youre proposing you make it longer?

-the tests already make us go for broke. how much is the mcat these days, $250? getting people to administer an oral exam = $$$$, which comes out of the test takers pocket. the ridiculous debt is supposed to come AFTER you get into med school, not so much before.

 

[Excelsius]

an oral part is ridiculous.

-if you want to weed out the weirdos, then thats precisely what school interviews are for.

-the test was just shortened to 5 hours. now youre proposing you make it longer?

-the tests already make us go for broke. how much is the mcat these days, $250? getting people to administer an oral exam = $$$$, which comes out of the test takers pocket. the ridiculous debt is supposed to come AFTER you get into med school, not so much before.

Wrong. If someone is weird, he/she should NOT even get an interview. You are wasting a spot for someone else who might have lower stats but be a much better future doctor.

MCAT should be the pre-interview weed out and consistently cover topics that the interviewers might neglect because of their personal biases, unethicality, or moral incompetence. The interviewer might not share the general school psychology for admissions either. This is perhaps why some of these medstudents in the allo are even in the allo.

 

[Omni]

Wrong. If someone is weird, he/she should NOT even get an interview. You are wasting a spot for someone else who might have lower stats but be a much better future doctor.

MCAT should be the pre-interview weed out and consistently cover topic that the interviewers might neglect because of their personal biases or unethicality. The interviewer might not share the general school psychology for admissions. This is why some of these medstudents in the allo are even in the allo.

I'm gonna say that interviews are the best way to "weed" out the bad ones. I don't think the MCAT should grade the student's oral skill because there are many differet factors to take into account.
-First off, students may be an international student, or have a heavy accent that will make it difficult to understand what he/she says.
-The student may even have problem with socializing, that may affect his oral. And not every field in medicine requires patient interaction. Radiology, as far as I know, has very limited interaction.
-And as for "wasting a spot for someone who has lower stats"...the person has low stats, so why should he even be considered? If he raises the stats, then there's a better chance for an interview.
-Keep in mind that A LOT of the skills are learned during medical school AND residency. Things such as confidence, how to talk to patients, how to deliver news, etc. etc. They all come from experience. Keep in mind, that many of us who study for the MCAT, we memorize just to take the MCAT and just to do well. Not too many of us think "I'll keep an open eye on this topic, I may find it in my med school class". How different do you think studying for the MCAT oral is going to be?
-All though speaking effectively is a big part of medicine, destroying a student's grade just because he can't speak well is a bad thing

I had more, but I forgot as I was typing them up :-(

 

[Excelsius]

I'm gonna say that interviews are the best way to "weed" out the bad ones. I don't think the MCAT should grade the student's oral skill because there are many differet factors to take into account.
-First off, students may be an international student, or have a heavy accent that will make it difficult to understand what he/she says.
-The student may even have problem with socializing, that may affect his oral. And not every field in medicine requires patient interaction. Radiology, as far as I know, has very limited interaction.
-And as for "wasting a spot for someone who has lower stats"...the person has low stats, so why should he even be considered? If he raises the stats, then there's a better chance for an interview.
-Keep in mind that A LOT of the skills are learned during medical school AND residency. Things such as confidence, how to talk to patients, how to deliver news, etc. etc. They all come from experience. Keep in mind, that many of us who study for the MCAT, we memorize just to take the MCAT and just to do well. Not too many of us think "I'll keep an open eye on this topic, I may find it in my med school class". How different do you think studying for the MCAT oral is going to be?
-All though speaking effectively is a big part of medicine, destroying a student's grade just because he can't speak well is a bad thing

I had more, but I forgot as I was typing them up :-(

Average human interaction has nothing to do with having an accent. I don't think that can even be a criterion for grading since that would be discrimination.

I am not talking about being shy here. That's fine. The point is more about ethics. If someone cannot discuss an average ethical issue with the basic level of emotional intelligence, that person should not be in medical school, regardless of stats. Being somewhat reserved, shy, or nervous should not matter much. The interview should be conducted by a psychologist or someone trained by one. I think that being an overt egoist should also be grounds for disqualifications. There is enough of the god complex (often misplaced) in medicine anyway and this drives down the ratings of doctors as a whole.

 

[PRodulous]

Agreed with above, it's too subjective. If there were an oral exam, it'd be as pointless as the written exam. Get a "T"? It'll make you feel great, but no one else including med schools would care.

 

[Beta Cell]

I don't think moving to an oral exam is anything they would ever think to do. 50,000 test-takers* 1 oral exam/test-taker= 50,000 oral exams. That's ridiculous and incredibly time-consuming (for both them and us, imagine waiting in line to get orally examed).

 

[iMD]

oral exams? dumb idea is dumb

 

[jojoshabadoo]

Judging by what many students in Allo say, this is a great idea. In fact, the oral examination should involve an ethical question, such as: What do you think about a classmate who attempts suicide by jumping out of the window?

haha how is this an ethical question?

"Uh I think its horrible, he shouldnt do that...."

the idea is totally unfeasible and not standardized, what would be the ****in point?

 

[Excelsius]

haha how is this an ethical question?

"Uh I think its horrible, he shouldnt do that...."

the idea is totally unfeasible and not standardized, what would be the ****in point?

Visit the Allo forum to understand it better.

The manner in which you give the response is more important than the precise words you use. A professional interviewer can understand the level of your "compassion" and sincerity.

 

[Omni]

That needs to be learned as you're becoming a doctor. Not before you even get to med school. How are you going to learn that on your own? Knowing how to do it as a doctor requires a medical setting and advice/direction from someone who is ahead of you.

 

[Climberak]

Three topics could be significantly cut:
1) Newtonian Mechanics: F = ma ...great! How does that help me with the diff. diagnosis?
2) Organic Chemistry: structures, steriotypes, and maybe just a few reactions would be adequate enough.
3) Thermodynamics: If I really want to find the change in temperature for something, I'll use a thermometer!

Writing section is pointless. It's too subjective and we already write a PS and secondary essays.

 

[Omni]

Three topics could be significantly cut:
1) Newtonian Mechanics: F = ma ...great! How does that help me with the diff. diagnosis?
2) Organic Chemistry: structures, steriotypes, and maybe just a few reactions would be adequate enough.
3) Thermodynamics: If I really want to find the change in temperature for something, I'll use a thermometer!

Writing section is pointless. It's too subjective and we already write a PS and secondary essays.

Agreed. There's also too much physics. Lights, optics, refractions, waves, electromagnetism...????

 

[BluntSurgeon]

I don't get why pre-medical students dog on organic chemistry and physics so much. Yea sure, they aren't directly used in diagnosing and everyday doctoring, but they are pillars upon which medicine was built. I personally think you should have a good command of these basic sciences in order to begin studying medicine. Part of being able to think critically hinges upon your ability to draw from many areas of study. For example let's take physics. Understanding physiology, hemodynamics, respiration and many of the body's processes (I could go on forever here) requires a good knowledge of physics. I can see how having an intuitive knowledge of basic physical properties could help a physician.

It's funny, many of you cite "I love science" as a reason to pursue medicine, when you guys should really just be saying "I loved my intro physiology class." There's nothing wrong with that, I just wish there was more enthusiasm for all the sciency aspects of medicine. At least that's my take on it.

 

[icekream]

1

 

[mmmcdowe]

No more Orgo-bashing! Organic chem is awesome. Rather than removing it, I wish that they would start integrating biology and organic chemistry into a more biochemical section. If anything, general chemistry is redundant and less useful simply because its thinking strategies are pretty similar to Physics. I agree the writing sample is kind of worthless, if only because it isn't weighted much. That'd be a great place to add an oral section instead.

Honestly though, I think the MCAT is pretty good where it is. For all of our nitpicking, it works.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Visit the Allo forum to understand it better.

The manner in which you give the response is more important than the precise words you use. A professional interviewer can understand the level of your "compassion" and sincerity.

Do you think the oral MCAT could weed out applicants who lack any rudimentary sense of humor?

 

[DrSno]

However, that's just my opinion, and probably just me not wanting my predecessors taking an easier test since I had to work so hard to do well on it.

That's not really a concern because the MCAT has not been made harder recently. What I'm worried about is them making it easier at some point in the future and those students will get an easier test.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I don't get why pre-medical students dog on organic chemistry and physics so much. Yea sure, they aren't directly used in diagnosing and everyday doctoring, but they are pillars upon which medicine was built. I personally think you should have a good command of these basic sciences in order to begin studying medicine. Part of being able to think critically hinges upon your ability to draw from many areas of study. For example let's take physics. Understanding physiology, hemodynamics, respiration and many of the body's processes (I could go on forever here) requires a good knowledge of physics. I can see how having an intuitive knowledge of basic physical properties could help a physician.

It's funny, many of you cite "I love science" as a reason to pursue medicine, when you guys should really just be saying "I loved my intro physiology class." There's nothing wrong with that, I just wish there was more enthusiasm for all the sciency aspects of medicine. At least that's my take on it.

This. I don't get why people bash on orgo, physics, etc. These classes actually require you to think!

I've had one bio class so far that made me think (an upper level physiology); everything else was regurgitation on the test. I'm an MCB major by the way, so I've taken a lot of biology classes. As much as I liked biochem, genetics, etc., there were significant portions of those classes that required you to memorize and not really think about anything. I loved physics and orgo...they were so much more conceptual than anything in MCB so far. By understanding the concept, you didn't have to study that much. I hated studying for days for MCB classes when for physics, I just spent an evening doing practice problems while watching TV and that would be good enough to tackle pretty much any problem on the exam.

I dunno, maybe I'm the only one thinking this way, but biology classes aren't hard. They're time consuming in that you have to sit down and memorize stuff. But they don't require much thinking, for the most part. So, I definitely think they should keep the MCAT topics similar to what they are now...maybe more biochem rather than orgo, but that's about it.

Edit: My immunology class also required me to think, but that's because a lot of questions were about interpreting experimental results, etc.

 

[Bryson17]

I suggest scrap O-Chem and put in more biology.

It's already minimized so much. I think schools should just require one semester. The second semester was just ridiculous and HARD.

Agreed. There's also too much physics. Lights, optics, refractions, waves, electromagnetism...????

Disagree. What about using microscopes, fluorescence, and aligning the optics. You know the concepts much better if there's optics on it. Now the magnetisim force questions are a bit ridiculous, but they're way easy anyway.

I don't get why pre-medical students dog on organic chemistry and physics so much. Yea sure, they aren't directly used in diagnosing and everyday doctoring, but they are pillars upon which medicine was built. I personally think you should have a good command of these basic sciences in order to begin studying medicine. Part of being able to think critically hinges upon your ability to draw from many areas of study. For example let's take physics. Understanding physiology, hemodynamics, respiration and many of the body's processes (I could go on forever here) requires a good knowledge of physics. I can see how having an intuitive knowledge of basic physical properties could help a physician.

It's funny, many of you cite "I love science" as a reason to pursue medicine, when you guys should really just be saying "I loved my intro physiology class." There's nothing wrong with that, I just wish there was more enthusiasm for all the sciency aspects of medicine. At least that's my take on it.

I've heard physics is a big part of med school. Not the focus of anything, but you use it here and there for different things. Just words of wisdom from my roomie in med school.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I've heard physics is a big part of med school. Not the focus of anything, but you use it here and there for different things. Just words of wisdom from my roomie in med school.

That's why I loved physiology! There's so much physics involved and it actually requires you to think! 😍

Seriously though, there are a ton of equations to use in pulmonary, renal, a few in cardiovascular, etc. and they really do reinforce conceptual ideas. There will definitely be a good chunk of physics in physiology in med school.

 

[Bryson17]

That's why I loved physiology! There's so much physics involved and it actually requires you to think! 😍

Seriously though, there are a ton of equations to use in pulmonary, renal, a few in cardiovascular, etc. and they really do reinforce conceptual ideas. There will definitely be a good chunk of physics in physiology in med school.

Sweet, then I do have a chance of doing well in med school then 😳

 

[mmmcdowe]

It's already minimized so much. I think schools should just require one semester. The second semester was just ridiculous and HARD.

Disagree. What about using microscopes, fluorescence, and aligning the optics. You know the concepts much better if there's optics on it. Now the magnetisim force questions are a bit ridiculous, but they're way easy anyway.

I've heard physics is a big part of med school. Not the focus of anything, but you use it here and there for different things. Just words of wisdom from my roomie in med school.

To be fair, I work with these things quite often in the lab, and I can't say that I have ever drawn on my theoretical knowledge of the stuff unless it was to impress the cute new lab tech.

 

[slick27]

They should really do something about that verbal setion though. It is too highly curved. My verbal 7 score makes it seem like I can read...BS

 

[Bryson17]

To be fair, I work with these things quite often in the lab, and I can't say that I have ever drawn on my theoretical knowledge of the stuff unless it was to impress the cute new lab tech.

Me too. I took a class on microscopes and another class on optics. While the class on microscopes was infinitely more helpful for learning microscopy techniques (obviously) than my optics class was, I was able to learn a lot of the reasons our techniques are limited in the optics class. I guess it all depends on how deep you want to dig. Maybe some physicians don't need to dig too deep, but I know that others do, especially some of the research happy physicians.

 

[DrSno]

They should really do something about that verbal setion though. It is too highly curved. My verbal 7 score makes it seem like I can read...BS

The verbal reasoning section is my favorite and it is very useful. It correlates the best with intelligence. If the egalitarian movement continues, I think we'll get to a point where we'll miss the days of intelligent doctors.

 

[ziggyd0c]

i think that sounds like a pretty good idea. you really do need to be a sociable person to have good patient interactions IMO. plus i doubt that an oral section (like it's been described) would count against you unless you were like a TOTAL weirdo.

the only thing that sucks is it will probably take even longer to get your scores back 😡

 

[alibai3ah]

The verbal reasoning section is my favorite and it is very useful. It correlates the best with intelligence. If the egalitarian movement continues, I think we'll get to a point where we'll miss the days of intelligent doctors.

Completely disagree, that section can be a bit biased against bilingual students/immigrants. I agree it is a tough section and you have to be very intelligent about the way the questions and passages are phrased; however, with the science sections now becoming MUCH more reading comprehension based (rather than pure knowledge), I feel like that section is losing its significance.

Granted all ad comms view stuff differently (and some think the verbal is very important), but I would assume they would take these biases into account

 

[sunsfan]

Make the damn thing PASS/FAIL.

 

[Kaustikos]

Make the damn thing PASS/FAIL.

That would make the process significantly more arbitrary.

GPA - 3.6ish
MCAT - PASS
EC - Same as everyone else

I can only imagine the people talking at interviews -
"What are your stats?"
"3.7, Pass"
"SAME HERE!"
"ME TOO"
"ME THREE"
"ME FOUR"
"ME FIVE!"

 

[redlight]

That would make the process significantly more arbitrary.

GPA - 3.6ish
MCAT - PASS
EC - Same as everyone else

I can only imagine the people talking at interviews -
"What are your stats?"
"3.7, Pass"
"SAME HERE!"
"ME TOO"
"ME THREE"
"ME FOUR"
"ME FIVE!"

lol it was a joke.. and no need to say pass/fail. if you are at the interview, im sure you passed the mcat.

 

[vickpick]

I think MCAT is reviewed every decade or so, it doesnt mean there are gonna be changes... it is only changed when necessary.