Changing doctorate programs

[lollyrocks]

I am applying to doctorate programs but I have a problem; my husband is in the military (20+ years in and he is not getting out any time soon) and we will only be at our next location for three, maybe four, years.

What are my options as far as starting one program (clinical psych) and potentially having to finish my PhD at another school?

Is there ANY possible way I can try to finish in four years? I am a very, very good student, finished my BA in two years, but I know that grad school is not the same. I do not want to waste three to four years in a program that will not help me with my degree, so what are my choices?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

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[cara susanna]

You can probably do four years at the same place if you keep up a good pace, but then you'd have to move for internship in the fifth year. You also would have to figure out what you'd do if you didn't get an internship on your first try--but a lot of people in my program do placements in other cities, so that would be an option.

 

[futureapppsy2]

You can probably do four years at the same place if you keep up a good pace, but then you'd have to move for internship in the fifth year. You also would have to figure out what you'd do if you didn't get an internship on your first try--but a lot of people in my program do placements in other cities, so that would be an option.

Ditto this. I know someone who did a pre-internship research year across the country from her program to both get more research experience and be closer to her spouse, who was in medical residency at the time.

Transferring does occasionally happen but is very rare and often involves essentially starting over. Don't bet on it, IMO.

 

[erg923]

I am applying to doctorate programs but I have a problem; my husband is in the military (20+ years in and he is not getting out any time soon) and we will only be at our next location for three, maybe four, years.

What are my options as far as starting one program (clinical psych) and potentially having to finish my PhD at another school?

Is there ANY possible way I can try to finish in four years? I am a very, very good student, finished my BA in two years, but I know that grad school is not the same. I do not want to waste three to four years in a program that will not help me with my degree, so what are my choices?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

1. You can't just transfer programs. Doesn't work like that.

2. Yes, you can finish the core of the thing in 4 years. Internship will be your fifth year. You will just need to make sure you work your ass off and get that diss done. Might need to see if you can use archival data if the program allows. Saves time. There's not really a way to do it any shorter than 4+1. I would plan on one year away from you hubby (the internship year).

BTW, this is all assuming you match your first time around. And about 40 percent of people dont.

 

[futureapppsy2]

1. You can't just transfer programs. Doesn't work like that.

2. Yes, you can finish the core of the thing in 4 years. Internship will be your fifth year. You will just need to make sure you woerk hard and get that diss done. Might needed to see if you can use archival data for it if the program allows. Saves time. There not really a way to do it any shorter than 4+1. I would plan on one year away from you hubby though (the internship year).

After seeing several people get delayed badly (think multiple years) by diss data collection issues, I'm of the strong mindset that people should use archival data for their thesis and diss whenever remotely possible.

 

[Marissa4usa]

After seeing several people get delayed badly (think multiple years) by diss data collection issues, I'm of the strong mindset that people should use archival data for their thesis and diss whenever remotely possible.

I think you can argue both ways. I think, to some extent it simply depends on what your ultimate goal is. It's a fact that many clinical PhD student don't plan to ever enter an academic building again after they have graduated. In those cases just getting it done in the least painful way (aka using archival data) is the way to go. However, I have met several people who have used their dissertation to start off their career (successfully so). Yes, they took an extra year (or two, urgh) to finish but because they had such an abundance of data available to them that they could publish off for multiple years it made the transition into academia (think tenure-track) easier. This is not to say that this is the best or only way but I don't think it's inherently bad.

 

[Ollie123]

I think you can argue both ways. I think, to some extent it simply depends on what your ultimate goal is. It's a fact that many clinical PhD student don't plan to ever enter an academic building after they have graduated. In those cases just getting it done in the least painful way (aka using archival data) is the way to go. However, I have met several people who have used their dissertation to start off their career (successfully so). Yes, they took an extra year (or two, urgh) to finish but because they had such an abundance of data available to them that they could publish off it for multiple years made the transition into academic (think tenure-track) easier. This is not to say that this is the best or only way but I don't think it's inherently bad.

I'd agree with this. I've seen faculty arguing on listservs that the use of archival data should actually be disallowed (at least for schools purporting to train scientists). I disagree with that since it somewhat limits those on more of a public-health line of work, but I think its problematic to push archival. The dissertation shouldn't just be a hoop, it should be a learning experience. There is something to be said for REALLY running your own study.

Also, for what its worth, I've heard from several folks on the academic job market right now who have said having never (truly) been a PI looks pretty bad, and is something taken into serious consideration when applying for research gigs. Of course, exceptions are made (I think Bob Krueger did an archival dissertaiton?) but I think if one is going to do an archival project, it would need to be way, way, above and beyond just another run of the mill pub off a dataset.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'd agree with this. I've seen faculty arguing on listservs that the use of archival data should actually be disallowed (at least for schools purporting to train scientists). I disagree with that since it somewhat limits those on more of a public-health line of work, but I think its problematic to push archival. The dissertation shouldn't just be a hoop, it should be a learning experience. There is something to be said for REALLY running your own study.

Also, for what its worth, I've heard from several folks on the academic job market right now who have said having never (truly) been a PI looks pretty bad, and is something taken into serious consideration when applying for research gigs. Of course, exceptions are made (I think Bob Krueger did an archival dissertaiton?) but I think if one is going to do an archival project, it would need to be way, way, above and beyond just another run of the mill pub off a dataset.

True. I only know two people (outside of myself) IRL who are interested in the academic route--most of the grad students I know have been strongly clinically-leaning (both at my non-R1 undergrad and my R1 grad school), a few to the point where I had to wonder why they wanted a PhD. I agree that the experience of truly running a study from the ground about is invaluable (if occasionally headache inducing! )

 

[cara susanna]

That makes me feel better about not using archival data! I am worried about data collection, but I'll (hopefully) have two years to do it.

 

[futureapppsy2]

That makes me feel better about not using archival data! I am worried about data collection, but I'll (hopefully) have two years to do it.

I have no doubts your diss will be great--and publishable.

 

[cara susanna]

Aww, thanks. First I have to finish writing this proposal, though!

 

[futureapppsy2]

I hear you there!

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

Aww, thanks. First I have to finish writing this proposal, though!

Ugh, I also hear ya... it feels like practically all I do and there's still SO MUCH to do!!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Aww, thanks. First I have to finish writing this proposal, though!

It doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be a learning experience and give you the basics to kick butt & take names if you dabble in research. Just get through it! I haven't looked at my diss stuff in....3+ years, and it feels AMAZING. New line of research, new fun!

 

[ClinicalABA]

I am applying to doctorate programs but I have a problem; my husband is in the military (20+ years in and he is not getting out any time soon) and we will only be at our next location for three, maybe four, years.

Be very cautious of how you present this information during interviews, in personal statements, etc. Good training programs (i.e. accredited, funded, mentor model, boulder model clinical Ph.D. programs with good match rates) invest a whole lot of time and money into their students, and thus want to proudly count them as alumni some day. Also, students who leave (for whatever reason) significantly impact attrition data (think about it- if it's a reasonable cohort of 6-8 students, 1 student leaving represents a 13%-17% attrition rate). If they get any inkling that there may be problems with you finishing, you will drop way down on the acceptance list- likely to the "do not admit" pile.

Now, I'm not encouraging you to lie to or be misleading in any way. The fact of the matter is that respectable doctoral training in Clinical Psych takes at least 4 years on campus and 1 year on internship. As mentioned previously, you don't get a lot of say as to where this internship is (unless you want to significantly impact your chances of getting an internship), and it might be in some god-awful place, far removed from your family. Heck, I got my first choice internship and still had to spend a miserable year living in Pawtucket, RI, because I couldn't/wouldn't pay the crazy Boston rents/parking fees/ etc. This is all part of the deal, and if you can't commit to it (or do it, for that matter), then you might need to consider other career options. Transfering can happen, but it is very rare. Getting accepted once is difficult enough. Getting accepted twice is really going against the odds.

This is where I think a lot of potential students may be tempted to consider some other, more flexible "training" options, like on-line "degrees." Please don't do so. It sucks to really want to do something, but realize it doesn't fit in with your current or future life. Be sure to check out this thread for some of the problems you might get into taking that route: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=918706

 

[wigflip]

Is there ANY possible way I can try to finish in four years?

If your husband is career military and you are likely to be moving every few years for the forseeable future then I'm guessing that an academic career (i.e. professorship) probably isn't the end goal. Given that, perhaps a (reputable) PsyD might be an option? I think that there are several uni-based PsyD programs which might fit that bill (see other threads on sdn for discussions of the alleged benefits/pitfalls of the PsyD). I know that Pepperdine is 3 years on campus plus 1 year internship, but you need to come in with a completed masters. I'm fairly certain I read about at least one or two other uni-based PsyDs with a similar timeframe. You could probably find 'em by reading through The Insiders Guide, then crosschecking their funding and APA match rates to get a better overall picture of whether that would suit your needs in the long run.

 

[paramour]

My program would laugh at me (or anyone else) if we proposed using archival data for a thesis/dissertation. I'm actually surprised by the number of people I've run across at other programs where this is allowed!

We've had numerous folks apply for faculty positions over the years. One of them had an amazing CV. Lots of studies based solely on archival data. In the end, the individual was passed over for this reason alone.

If you're going to use other folks' data, fine, but think about where you want to be afterward. It may limit your options.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My program would laugh at me (or anyone else) if we proposed using archival data for a thesis/dissertation. I'm actually surprised by the number of people I've run across at other programs where this is allowed!

We've had numerous folks apply for faculty positions over the years. One of them had an amazing CV. Lots of studies based solely on archival data. In the end, the individual was passed over for this reason alone.

If you're going to use other folks' data, fine, but think about where you want to be afterward. It may limit your options.

I wouldn't be surprised if the frequency of use of archival data varies by specialty/research area. With something like neuropsych (particularly in a setting where you're administering a relatively fixed battery to large numbers of individuals regardless of whether or not research occurs, such as a university clinic), I frequently see archival data used in both dissertations and published research. When examining other topics, such as the effects of a particular intervention, then archival data isn't going to be quite as useful much of the time. I think how the archival data is gathered also might play a role (i.e., whether you played any active role in collecting the data, setting up the database initially, etc.).

 

[paramour]

I wouldn't be surprised if the frequency of use of archival data varies by specialty/research area. With something like neuropsych (particularly in a setting where you're administering a relatively fixed battery to large numbers of individuals regardless of whether or not research occurs, such as a university clinic), I frequently see archival data used in both dissertations and published research. When examining other topics, such as the effects of a particular intervention, then archival data isn't going to be quite as useful much of the time. I think how the archival data is gathered also might play a role (i.e., whether you played any active role in collecting the data, setting up the database initially, etc.).

I think this makes perfect sense.

Buuut, using other people's archival data that you had no part in collecting in any form or fashion, all data is survey data (that any single person could collect if their li'l ole' heart so desired), and participants were not "anyone special" . . .

Meh. Collect your own data. Hell, go use Mechanical Turk if you're worried about time constraints and be done with it in a day.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If your husband is career military and you are likely to be moving every few years for the forseeable future then I'm guessing that an academic career (i.e. professorship) probably isn't the end goal. Given that, perhaps a (reputable) PsyD might be an option? I think that there are several uni-based PsyD programs which might fit that bill (see other threads on sdn for discussions of the alleged benefits/pitfalls of the PsyD). I know that Pepperdine is 3 years on campus plus 1 year internship, but you need to come in with a completed masters. I'm fairly certain I read about at least one or two other uni-based PsyDs with a similar timeframe. You could probably find 'em by reading through The Insiders Guide, then crosschecking their funding and APA match rates to get a better overall picture of whether that would suit your needs in the long run.

A uni-based Psy.D is going to take as long a as a balanced Ph.D....so you won't really "save" any time going this route.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think this makes perfect sense.

Buuut, using other people's archival data that you had no part in collecting in any form or fashion, all data is survey data (that any single person could collect if their li'l ole' heart so desired), and participants were not "anyone special" . . .

Meh. Collect your own data. Hell, go use Mechanical Turk if you're worried about time constraints and be done with it in a day.

I could potentially see using archival data that you didn't have a hand in directly collecting if said data is highly thorough/complicated (e.g., any sort of state-wide program such as regarding health behavior and wellness data, in-depth cognitive and/or medical testing via half-day batteries and the like). But I think this necessitates, then, that your data screening and analyses be even more thorough than is the norm, and that your research question be quite pointed, unique, and well thought out. My data, for example, is archival (although I did play a direct roll in collecting and databasing it over the years), and my data screening and analysis description sections alone were probably 15 pages.

Using archival survey data that you could've gathered yourself in a month's time? Yeah, I agree, collect your own.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I'm pretty sure we're not allowed to use archival data for diss here. Thesis (masters), it's up to the advisor.

As for the OP, you might be able to pull it off in 4 years, especially if going into academia isn't your main goal. I'd recommend making sure you go to a program where you can get plenty of practicum hours and be proactive about making sure you have enough hours. You'll have to be very self-motivated about pushing yourself to be done with milestones on time. I might not mention it in apps or at interviews, but once you have offers, I think a frank discussion with your advisor about the likelihood of being done in 4+1 is reasonable.

You are also going to have to accept the possibility of being away from your S.O. for a year or two. What if there are no internship sites at your husband's next assignment?

 

[lollyrocks]

1. You can't just transfer programs. Doesn't work like that.

2. Yes, you can finish the core of the thing in 4 years. Internship will be your fifth year. You will just need to make sure you work your ass off and get that diss done. Might need to see if you can use archival data if the program allows. Saves time. There's not really a way to do it any shorter than 4+1. I would plan on one year away from you hubby (the internship year).

BTW, this is all assuming you match your first time around. And about 40 percent of people dont.

Thank you so much for the info on using archival data, that will be very helpful. I do anticipate at least a year of separation but I'm trying to keep it under two, we are already very used to separation and it sucks. I know I can't "transfer" graduate programs like undergraduate programs, but in an absolute worst-case-scenario I'm hoping that at least part of my work will be better than useless; can you "take" your dissertation with you?

Also, I won't start until next fall; is there anything I can do prior to beginning that might help me out? I have a good six months to kill - if I know the program's research areas, can I start researching before I even have a thesis advisor?

 

[Sanman]

As far as archival data use, I have mixed feelings. I am a big fan of the in-out process of grad school. While I agree that research should not be rushed, it also should not be costing poor grad students money. In this climate of declining funding, spending an extra year collecting data may cost you X thousands of dollars in extra money out of pocket (it will regardless due opportunity cost and interest on loans, but still). However, each person needs to weigh the importance of the dissertation for their individual career path. As previous posters mentioned, taking the time to due a full dissertation can be the difference in obtaining an academic position. Clinically, it may not make as much a difference. I went an in between route (used archival data from an ongoing nationally funded multi-site project, but helped collect data for future projects to learn collection methods, etc.) and hated it while I was struggling to finish it. However, the fact that it was cutting edge behavioral medicine research helped me land both my post-doc positions in this area of the field.

As for the OP, I see you are in Hawaii, are you planning to only apply there or spend time apart from your husband and go somewhere else? The reality is that this career path does not reward speed. Even if you finish your didactics in 3 years, you will likely lack the clinical hours needed to be competitive for internship in less than 4 years and the dissertation requirements many internships ask for by the start of that year (either proposal or defense completed prior to start). If you don't feel that taking the time is possible, please choose another degree route. You can see from many of the threads here that taking shortcuts and limiting options early on often means poor outcomes and lack of career options later. Better to be from the best MSW, MFT, etc program than the worst PhD.PsyD program/internship.

 

[lollyrocks]

Be very cautious of how you present this information during interviews, in personal statements, etc. Good training programs (i.e. accredited, funded, mentor model, boulder model clinical Ph.D. programs with good match rates) invest a whole lot of time and money into their students, and thus want to proudly count them as alumni some day. Also, students who leave (for whatever reason) significantly impact attrition data (think about it- if it's a reasonable cohort of 6-8 students, 1 student leaving represents a 13%-17% attrition rate). If they get any inkling that there may be problems with you finishing, you will drop way down on the acceptance list- likely to the "do not admit" pile.

Now, I'm not encouraging you to lie to or be misleading in any way. The fact of the matter is that respectable doctoral training in Clinical Psych takes at least 4 years on campus and 1 year on internship. As mentioned previously, you don't get a lot of say as to where this internship is (unless you want to significantly impact your chances of getting an internship), and it might be in some god-awful place, far removed from your family. Heck, I got my first choice internship and still had to spend a miserable year living in Pawtucket, RI, because I couldn't/wouldn't pay the crazy Boston rents/parking fees/ etc. This is all part of the deal, and if you can't commit to it (or do it, for that matter), then you might need to consider other career options. Transfering can happen, but it is very rare. Getting accepted once is difficult enough. Getting accepted twice is really going against the odds.

This is where I think a lot of potential students may be tempted to consider some other, more flexible "training" options, like on-line "degrees." Please don't do so. It sucks to really want to do something, but realize it doesn't fit in with your current or future life. Be sure to check out this thread for some of the problems you might get into taking that route: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=918706

I have agonized over this particular point for a very long time; it feels dishonest to withhold this information but it is probably ruining my shot at admission if I disclose it. I am sincerely planning to finish whichever program I start, hopefully very fast, so I don't think I have to bring up my frequent relocation because I would stay for an excellent program if it was only a year or two.

Thanks for your help!

 

[lollyrocks]

As for the OP, I see you are in Hawaii, are you planning to only apply there or spend time apart from your husband and go somewhere else? The reality is that this career path does not reward speed. Even if you finish your didactics in 3 years, you will likely lack the clinical hours needed to be competitive for internship in less than 4 years and the dissertation requirements many internships ask for by the start of that year (either proposal or defense completed prior to start). If you don't feel that taking the time is possible, please choose another degree route. You can see from many of the threads here that taking shortcuts and limiting options early on often means poor outcomes and lack of career options later. Better to be from the best MSW, MFT, etc program than the worst PhD.PsyD program/internship.

Thanks for the info. I obviously have a lot of decisions to make and options to weigh; I have been looking into doing an MFT program for now and getting my doctorate after my husband retires, that way I don't have to rush. I'm sure you meant no offense, but I want to be clear that I do not take "shortcuts;" I have fulfilled every single requirement to the absolute highest standard and I will continue to do so. I am trying to figure out how to do this, not how to get around it. Again, I'm sure you did not mean anything negative, I just want to make sure that if anyone does interpret my question that way I have clarified the issue.

Thanks again, you gave me some really good information to think about.

 

[lollyrocks]

PsychPhDStudent,

If I have to be away from my husband, for school or internship, I will. We've lived apart for years at a time before, so I am confident that the extra stress of separation won't impact my progress; we have a very easy marriage. We are moving to AZ next year where I'll start school (I hope), otherwise I will either wait until he retires or I will go to TX for school (I have family there - plus the benefit of being a resident and extra veteran benefits I can only get in TX) and deal with it. I do have *some* options, just not as many as most. Thanks for the tip on talking to my adviser AFTER being admitted, I think it's important that they understand I can't take an exceptionally long time to finish.

 

[Sanman]

Thanks for the info. I obviously have a lot of decisions to make and options to weigh; I have been looking into doing an MFT program for now and getting my doctorate after my husband retires, that way I don't have to rush. I'm sure you meant no offense, but I want to be clear that I do not take "shortcuts;" I have fulfilled every single requirement to the absolute highest standard and I will continue to do so. I am trying to figure out how to do this, not how to get around it. Again, I'm sure you did not mean anything negative, I just want to make sure that if anyone does interpret my question that way I have clarified the issue.

Thanks again, you gave me some really good information to think about.

No offense intended and it was not meant as a personal criticism. However, if you read many of the other threads here, people are often geographically limited, have other obligations, etc. It is all quite understandable as career is only a part of life and should not (ideally) rule it. However, this career choice can often mean moving places you don't want to while you jump all the hoops. A common alternative solution for some people seems to be for profit schools, online programs, non-APA accredited programs, etc. Often people also choose to go to non-APA internships as well to be closer to family/spouses and to avoid having to re-apply to the match the following years. At the end of the day, these temporary choices will often limit job options for the rest of your career at many reputable institutions, VA medical centers, board of prisons, etc that tend to pay better and offer better benefits. IMO, better to pursue a different degree and have the better jobs open to you rather than chase the dream and then be stuck with poor job options later. Remember, getting licensed is the bare minimum qualification for many good jobs. Just a bit of advice for all those still out there deciding. Good luck, whatever you decide!

 

[PhDToBe]

My school is encouraging the 4+1 route because they can only guarantee funding for the first 4 years. I am in an R1/reputable program.

Also, I would think using archival data for a thesis is acceptable (depending on one's field). I think people should either collect data for their dissertation OR have at least done so for one project during their time in grad school. In other words, I think that all PhD students should have begun at least one study from start to finish during the program, as it is important, as others have said, to learn from this process.