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@ Me next time. Also, you can clear 500-750k working corp as an OMFS. Not a bad gig.
Cheapest vs Most expensive schools mayhem
- Thread starter Faefly
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Like I told you, every school has pros and cons. I’m sure there’s several miserable people at UPenn which is the minority and that is the same for almost every school across the US. Some stuff you can’t control(administration), some you can (amount of debt you are taking). Since you are so knowledgeable at UPenn you should know what I’m talking about. Also why are they so disgruntled at UCLA, thought they were P/F lol. I’m chilling at stony and we aren’t P/F.
I respect a lot of what you post, however I really think this is a bit much. Coming from a deeply religious part of the country I've actually seen kids struggle with coming out and how their parents have responded for those that do. (Abandonment, "gay therapy", you name it)
That being said I don't know if you have ever been in a position of financial hardship (or seen someone going through something similar), but those of us who have in some way or another are just here to give advice based on what we have experienced. This is an open forum where people come seeking advice.
This is not a fantasy where you will graduate and that 500k+ debt will not weigh heavily on decisions you make thereafter. Money, and lack thereof, can change people.
Financial responsibility is something everyone should atleast consider.
To Faefly's point we should not shame or belittle anyone for making their choice because at the end of the day it is their future. They have more than likely sought out the opinions of both sides and made a decision based on what they think is best for them and we must respect that.
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Yes. I am sorry about saying that. I will edit what I said so that I don't make little of what coming out of the closet means.
Of course some even commit sucicde because they can't come out of the closet or their family does not accept them.
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This thread is so long and pointless that I dont even care to read it.. I just wanted to say to the original poster; You're right!! Money doesn't matter!! Think with your heart and not your brain! Choose a school in NY or something! 🙂 I hear it's beautiful there with tons of things to do and places to explore! Leave all the crappy/ cheap/ not as nice schools for us nut-jobs that are one-sided! 
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Actually, a lot of people will judge, but the better observation is that the judgement of random, nameless people on the interwebs shouldn't have a bearing on your happiness. If it does, you (general, not YOU) need to reevaluate where you get your validation.
That said, I think this whole topic actually boils down to a group's (my generation and those younger than me) inability to deal with a reality they have yet to experience. All of the threads mentioned relating to the "go to the cheapest school" debate have both sides presented, but it is almost unilaterally those with inexperience advocating for the expensive option. Those who are experienced, in both matters of finance, dentistry, and life, are consistently saying to go with the cheaper option.
TL;DR - Experienced good advice correcting inexperienced bad advice is hard when you're in the latter camp, but it doesn't make the former evil or mean, and certainly not wrong.
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Dental education is expensive no matter where you go. Instead of spending time going through the terrors of student loan debt, why aren’t some great minds working on reducing tuition? For a group of intelligent individuals, I never hear anyone bringing this forth. Once we can all agree that human beings are essentially the same in all 50 states, and their teeth follow same train of thought, we can move forward. Surely we can develop some type of unified dental school curriculum which can in some fashion lower expenses. Shared lecture and lab space is another. Technology advancements will also help. This must be enacted through CODA, not ADEA or the ADA. Pilot advancements through state schools which are publicly funded and subject to intense oversight. Lowering dental school expenses ( taxpayer dollars) will be popular with everyone, not just students. Just a thought on my part. Instead of addressing the pain, let’s address the underlying problem.
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Totally agree with you, but apparently part of the problem lies on the consumer side (predents). If you have predents (read: consumers) willing to pay more than necessary for a similar product ... then how do you solve that? For profit business will always find ways to exploit these ill-informed consumers. Interestingly .... most of these for profit business predators usually go after low IQ consumers. Those with poor credit ratings. Those that are desperate. Think short term loans. Crappy mortgages with high interest rates. Corporate dentistry loans with their high interest rates (LOL). Used and new cars sold to people with crappy credit and as a result .... they PAY MORE FOR THE SAME SERVICE OR PRODUCT.
Predents should be smarter than this. You've worked hard to get to this point. Higher than average intelligence. Going to DS is a financial arrangement. 4 short years of your life. You come out a dentist just like EVERYONE else. Again ... patients do not care where you went to school. PERIOD.
High DS debt will impact EVERYTHING you do after DS. Everything. Financial issues are and will be the main stressors in your life. It never ends .... even as a seasoned dentist. Imagine seeing new patients knowing that you have to produce a certain amount just to pay all your bills. It is stressful.
Dentistry is a wonderful profession. Many different opportunities. Don't spoil it with an unnecessary huge debt service that could have been avoided.
And yes .... I understand that some predents don't have a choice. But most do.
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Choose your fighter.
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I can say I am a Ivy League trained dentist by doing a GPR at one of those places right? Cause let’s be real here, you learn far more dentistry during your GPR than dental school. I get paid and I can claim I’m Ivy League trained without the price tag, sweeeet.
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You should totally do one! Then maybe your insecurities of not getting into one would be fulfilled! I kid, I kid 😀
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Haha, you can say some people choose Ivy League dental schools cause of insecurities of not getting into one for undergrad.
This seems straightforward. If you care about money at all (the majority), go to the cheaper school. If you don't care about being rewarded financially for all of the effort you've put in and performing dentistry is, in itself, all the reward you need, go to whatever school you want. I like the fact that there are people who see the world beyond money (Faefly), but you can't escape the financial system, it's the backbone of this country. If you are willing to consciously make poor financial decisions, you should know that there are plenty of entities (schools, corps, people) that will be happy to take everything you have and leave you with nothing.
If you are stuck going to an expensive school, I believe you can still make it work if you are willing to sacrifice and base all decisions after school on your finances.
If you are stuck going to an expensive school, I believe you can still make it work if you are willing to sacrifice and base all decisions after school on your finances.
Faefly- that wasn't meant to be an attack on you btw. You seem like someone who would jump at the chance to move somewhere grossly under-served where you could make an impact on the community- you'll probably make good money in spite of yourself.
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oof too real
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We, pre-dental students, are naive and usually did not had a chance to make a serious financial decision.
Dental students and dentists usually tell pre-dental students to go to a cheaper school.
They tell pre-dentists so we do not make the same mistake again.
But some just don't listen and have to make a mistake to learn the lesson.
Oftentimes, you learn from your mistakes but making a wrong financial decision for dental school will have a huge price to pay for.
I am not saying going to more expensive dental school is wrong, but not knowing what the actual amount would be and without having a decent repayment plan prior to matriculation is.
To op, people may or may not regret. I personally chose one of the most expensive dental school when I had a cheaper option.
I may or may not regret but I did not wanted to regret not going to where I truly wanted to go.
Then I may comeback to SDN forum as a practicing dentist and tell pre-dental students to never go to expensive private dental schools or I may say trust your guts because it was worth it.
Bottom line is dental students and dentists are warning naive pre-dental students.
Dental students and dentists usually tell pre-dental students to go to a cheaper school.
They tell pre-dentists so we do not make the same mistake again.
But some just don't listen and have to make a mistake to learn the lesson.
Oftentimes, you learn from your mistakes but making a wrong financial decision for dental school will have a huge price to pay for.
I am not saying going to more expensive dental school is wrong, but not knowing what the actual amount would be and without having a decent repayment plan prior to matriculation is.
To op, people may or may not regret. I personally chose one of the most expensive dental school when I had a cheaper option.
I may or may not regret but I did not wanted to regret not going to where I truly wanted to go.
Then I may comeback to SDN forum as a practicing dentist and tell pre-dental students to never go to expensive private dental schools or I may say trust your guts because it was worth it.
Bottom line is dental students and dentists are warning naive pre-dental students.
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The ADEA national conference is upcoming, during the St. Patricks Day weekend in Chicago. I charge ASDA with their representative duty to address the Council of Deans (yes, all the deans together) about what means they currently have, and what they plan on doing, to reduce the cost of dental education. Why not? What is the downside of making the DS students concerns known in a national forum. Bring forth some ideas if they have none. A unified education with podcasts of basic science courses given by people who are expert communicators (not just reciting the same old lecture with the same old powerpoint) may be a first step. Is Biochem really that much different from school to school. Partnership with med schools to reduce redundant faculty. Shared lab space with med school to reduce redundant spaces. Shared multipurpose lecture space. Hi usage and volume clinical space. Better deals with suppliers and vendors. Grant money spent to improve facilities. University endowment to provide low interest (read almost no interest) loans to students (why not invest in your own product if you believe in them?)
Basically, the students, who this is affecting, must demand a plan from the administration to make a commitment to work on this, not just give it lip service. Until administration takes this on as their problem, it will remain the students problem. The issue must be forced. Probably easiest on the state level, as these schools are publicly supported by tax dollars (pilot this idea in NY, TX, and CA which each have more than one state school). Private schools can be made to tow the line by putting all state and federal grant money/subsidies contingent on tuition reduction.
Letter to the governors and comptrollers of NY,TX, and CA could be a start as well
Until this becomes a grass routes movement, it will remain something we talk about on SDN with no outcome.
Further, the oversight authority of the dental schools, CODA, must be brought into this conversation. ASDA....reach out to CODA. they can MAKE THIS HAPPEN. Forward thinking educational concepts which can reduce costs must be brought to CODA's attention. Dental students are a group of highly intelligent individuals. The Geis Report (how many dental students even know what this is?) is ancient. How about a 21st century Geis Report that delineates the future of dental education. After all, most of today's dental students are learning our profession (read OUR PROFESSION, we're all in this together) the same way I did in the 70's and 80's. Imagine the world with no cell phones.
Basically, the students, who this is affecting, must demand a plan from the administration to make a commitment to work on this, not just give it lip service. Until administration takes this on as their problem, it will remain the students problem. The issue must be forced. Probably easiest on the state level, as these schools are publicly supported by tax dollars (pilot this idea in NY, TX, and CA which each have more than one state school). Private schools can be made to tow the line by putting all state and federal grant money/subsidies contingent on tuition reduction.
Letter to the governors and comptrollers of NY,TX, and CA could be a start as well
Until this becomes a grass routes movement, it will remain something we talk about on SDN with no outcome.
Further, the oversight authority of the dental schools, CODA, must be brought into this conversation. ASDA....reach out to CODA. they can MAKE THIS HAPPEN. Forward thinking educational concepts which can reduce costs must be brought to CODA's attention. Dental students are a group of highly intelligent individuals. The Geis Report (how many dental students even know what this is?) is ancient. How about a 21st century Geis Report that delineates the future of dental education. After all, most of today's dental students are learning our profession (read OUR PROFESSION, we're all in this together) the same way I did in the 70's and 80's. Imagine the world with no cell phones.
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The thing about these loans are that they are non dischargable. Is that a great and bad thing? . When the 08 crisis occurred a lot of people who were in debt with cheap house mortgages just declared bankruptcy and got out of their mismanaged finances.
In this scenario of student debt... the government wants their money back and will garnish your wages forever until they see their money back. In the eyes of the law, there is no scenario where you are a 22 year naive kid. You are an adult and responsible for your decisions. There is no bankruptcy scenario where you can walk away. So at the end of the day, whatever choice you choose you are stuck with it. Personally, I think personal responsibility should be something that we all have to answer to. You shouldn't just be able to walk away from it because you can't make the payments.
For me, I choose a moderate expensive school because my wife lived close by and for me to go cheaper would mean uprooting my entire family. However, if I had the freedom to do whatever, I would go with the cheapest option hands-down because at the end of the day, a dentist is a dentist.
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Those naive enough to go to very expensive schools when they have cheaper options will always feel that they made the right decision because when you know you paid more than you should have for something your insecurities will always find ways to justify it somehow...
Rough numbers, take home for 120k salary in California (highest state income tax) with about $500 taken out for pre-tax deductions (insurance, 401k, etc) is about $6,200 a month (with zero allowances, filing single, essentially set to highest tax liability).
Monthly loan payment for 500k of loans with average of 7% interest rate over 15 years is $4,500 a month.
Its not impossible to live on a $1,700 a month (in most places), but its not gonna be real fun.
Monthly loan payment for 500k of loans with average of 7% interest rate over 15 years is $4,500 a month.
Its not impossible to live on a $1,700 a month (in most places), but its not gonna be real fun.
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I think a large part of the problem lies in the federal government's willingness to lend as well. Sure, each student is responsible for their own financial decision making, but with Uncle Sam dangling any amount of money you need in front of you to pay for your education, it's hard for students to turn down those $450-500k schools because the money's easily accessible.
If the government stopped with the easy lending we might have kids reconsidering and shopping around more... thoughts?
Edit: There's also a correlation between the government's passing of Direct Education Loans in the 90s and ballooning costs of healthcare education... so I'm pretty sure they're a big culprit as well.
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I, along with I am sure many others would be interested in lobbying on our own behalf. I'm glad to see someone else pointing out that this directly/indirectly influences all of us.
