Cheating - check yes on AMCAS?

[paradocs we are]

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My friend is applying to medical schools this year and he's gotten himself into some trouble. I was hoping someone could help. He was caught cheating but the dean decided to give him a second chance and so it didn't go on his permanent record. Should he check yes to committing an offense on his AMCAS application? I personally think he should. Any ideas on what he should do?

Edit: So people ultimately would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught? So in the future if his patient is harmed because of malpractice, but he's perfectly capable of covering his butt, then it's alright?

 

[TupacalipseT96]

Why do you think he should check yes? Because it might be recorded somewhere else less-official? Or because that's what jesus would do?

I wouldn't flag himself if the school didn't deem it necessary to discipline him for it.

 

[Virgil]

My friend is applying to medical schools this year and he's gotten himself into some trouble. I was hoping someone could help. He was caught cheating but the dean decided to give him a second chance and so it didn't go on his permanent record. Should he check yes to committing an offense on his AMCAS application? I personally think he should. Any ideas on what he should do?

I, for one, don't think we should advertise our mistakes. If the dean overlooked it, and your friend learned his lesson, I don't see a reason why he should include mention of it in his AMCAS. I'm all for honesty, but I would advise discretion in such situations.

 

[paradocs we are]

I see. So if there is no way anyone would find out about this, then he's safe to check no?

 

[lisasimpson87]

i think if your, uh, friend has a pre-med adviser, he should ask the adviser whether he needs to report it. normally pre-health committees put on your letter whether you've been in trouble w/ the deans, so if you put no and they put yes, that means you're in big trouble, but if they put no then theres no reason for you to put yes. just explain what happened to the adviser and they'll tell u whether you need to report it. if you dont have an adviser then id say ask the dean ? it's better to be safe than sorry in terms of getting caught not reporting it when you should have....i would only feel comfortable doing it if someone like a dean had advised me not to, so i could be like "well dean xxx said i didn't have to" know what i mean? that was one very kind dean, btw

 

[nonesuchgirl]

I see. So if there is no way anyone would find out about this, then he's safe to check no?

I would vote yes.

 

[flip26]

No blood, no foul.

Meaning: I would not admit to anything that was not officially adjudicated and recorded by the school. No record of it = it never happened.

Having said that, some med schools require a supplemental "dean's letter" to confirm that there have been no super secret violations, recorded or not...so your "friend" is by no means in the clear if the dean decides to "remember" this incident and report it...

Oh, and do NOT ask some douche bag pre-med adviser what he thinks about this...why would you EVER present such a thing to someone who is in the position of totally screwing you up in this process (if he is involved in the committee letter, etc)? Don't tell ANYONE about this.

 

[ZagDoc]

If the dean did not deem the situation serious enough to record it on his permanent record, I don't feel he has any obligation to share the information.

This isn't "dishonesty" or "covering up." The type of offenses the AMCAS asks for are the type they would see on your record.

Now if it WAS on his record and he was checking no and hoping no one noticed, that is an entirely different scenario, and he would clearly be in the wrong.

 

[Virgil]

No blood, no foul.

Meaning: I would not admit to anything that was not officially adjudicated and recorded by the school. No record of it = it never happened.

Having said that, some med schools require a supplemental "dean's letter" to confirm that there have been no super secret violations, recorded or not...so your "friend" is by no means in the clear if the dean decides to "remember" this incident and report it...

Oh, and do NOT ask some douche bag pre-med adviser what he thinks about this...why would you EVER present such a thing to someone who is in the position of totally screwing you up in this process (if he is involved in the committee letter, etc)? Don't tell ANYONE about this.

Super secret?

"Yes, this is off the record but the applicant in question slept with my daughter when he thought I was out of town. He was caught, confronted and disciplined by yours truly, but due to the shame of my family there is no record of this altercation.

Sincerely,

Dean Phillips"

 

[nonesuchgirl]

Super secret?

"Yes, this is off the record but the applicant in question slept with my daughter when he thought I was out of town. He was caught, confronted and disciplined by yours truly, but due to the shame of my family there is no record of this altercation.

Sincerely,

Dean Phillips"

Dude, I thought you were going to quit telling that story.

 

[paradocs we are]

Super secret?

"Yes, this is off the record but the applicant in question slept with my daughter when he thought I was out of town. He was caught, confronted and disciplined by yours truly, but due to the shame of my family there is no record of this altercation.

Sincerely,

Dean Phillips"

You're my hero.

 

[Wordead]

Judging from your added comments, you seem shocked and appalled that a pre-med would not voluntarily damage his chances of entering medical school. Your malpractice example is completely absurd because the consequence there is that person is being hurt through incompetence. There is absolutely no downside (aside from "stealing" a potential seat from someone) to not reporting this. We aren't applying to be saints - he made a mistake small enough to not be reported, are you saying he should void four years of work when it's not necessary? There's no way anyone in SDN can say whether your friend will be a good physician or will be unethical - we don't have that kind of information. But there's certainly no reason for an applicant to hurt himself if he's learned from his mistake and is committed to medicine.

You seem to be pushing for a "yes" answer. I'd say you're either just looking to say that premeds have poor morals, or you're a terrible friend. Is your misguided sense of honor really worth your friend's future? I'm sure you realize that an ethics violation can be a killstrike on an application - leave the poor guy alone.

 

[lisasimpson87]

Do NOT let your friend just put "No" without talking to someone about it first, whether a pre-med adviser or a dean. Even though there won't be a permanent record of it THERE WILL BE A RECORD OF IT SOMEWHERE. More likely than not there will be a sealed letter in your (his?) file stating what happened, and the letter will be destroyed after graduation. Deans can't just completely disregard an event (well, I guess they technically CAN, but they won't). What happens if you cheat again? The Dean needs to be able to say, "This happened before, you had your warning then, now there will be more serious consequences." There IS some sort of record of your cheating that will allow deans to know that you are a repeat offender if it happens again. Therefore, the dean, or pre-med adviser, or whoever is going to vouch for you when med schools ask whether you have a clean slate is already in a position to screw you over. The best way to proceed is to email whoever will be writing the letter with something along the lines of, "This is what happened, this is what the dean said, no action was taking, I was making sure I didn't need to report it." You can ask it anonymously if you want, but make sure you get the okay from your adviser. Otherwise you will spend the entire process wondering whether med schools know that you cheated and worrying that it will somehow come out.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Why do you think he should check yes? Because it might be recorded somewhere else less-official? Or because that's what jesus would do?

I wouldn't flag himself if the school didn't deem it necessary to discipline him for it.

That's what I was thinking... if the dean thought either it wasn't big enough to go on his personal record, or thought that this is a good kid who made a bad choice, then I wouldn't see any reason for hom to voluntarily disclose that information. Every applicant tries to put their best foot forward. Everybody has made mistakes/has negative attributes (using fake ID's to get into bars, using adderall, having mental conditions...etc) yet no one volunteers to advertise them.

The way I see it, if someone had a big enough gap in their ethics to commit the cheating, why would you think they would be OVERLY ethical (not just with normal ethics) and volunteer to report something that is off the record? Actually, I wounder if it is even ethical to be that dumb.

Finally, to use drugs/crimes as an example, why do you think schools ask if one was convicted of a crime and NOT if one was involved in one? I think there is nothing wrong with not volunteering anything that can negatively impact your application if you don't have to. The sin was cheating, and he has to deal with it, not reporting it is not really a sin.

 

[ACSurgeon]

My friend is applying to medical schools this year and he's gotten himself into some trouble. I was hoping someone could help. He was caught cheating but the dean decided to give him a second chance and so it didn't go on his permanent record. Should he check yes to committing an offense on his AMCAS application? I personally think he should. Any ideas on what he should do?

Edit: So people ultimately would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught? So in the future if his patient is harmed because of malpractice, but he's perfectly capable of covering his butt, then it's alright?

That is apple and oranges. Don't compare copying someone's homework with not taking responsibility for killing/harming someone!

I think this is why doctors keep getting screwed over, because they volunteer to get screwed at times, and are forced other times too.

 

[frankg1401]

Given that the dean already decided to give your friend a second chance, I do not see a reason why he should mention it again in a confidential letter. Anyways, your friend should be careful about this.

 

[ACSurgeon]

i think if your, uh, friend has a pre-med adviser, he should ask the adviser whether he needs to report it. normally pre-health committees put on your letter whether you've been in trouble w/ the deans, so if you put no and they put yes, that means you're in big trouble, but if they put no then theres no reason for you to put yes. just explain what happened to the adviser and they'll tell u whether you need to report it. if you dont have an adviser then id say ask the dean ? it's better to be safe than sorry in terms of getting caught not reporting it when you should have....i would only feel comfortable doing it if someone like a dean had advised me not to, so i could be like "well dean xxx said i didn't have to" know what i mean? that was one very kind dean, btw

I think said person needs to tell as few people as possibe. Again, if the DEAN thought it was minor enought to overlook it and/or made the said student face certain consequences, then it is over and in the past. No need to go take opinions or put himself in trouble.

 

[paradocs we are]

A clarification: I start medical school in a couple of weeks. 😉 So please stop thinking it's about me.

 

[ACSurgeon]

No blood, no foul.

Meaning: I would not admit to anything that was not officially adjudicated and recorded by the school. No record of it = it never happened.

Having said that, some med schools require a supplemental "dean's letter" to confirm that there have been no super secret violations, recorded or not...so your "friend" is by no means in the clear if the dean decides to "remember" this incident and report it...

Oh, and do NOT ask some douche bag pre-med adviser what he thinks about this...why would you EVER present such a thing to someone who is in the position of totally screwing you up in this process (if he is involved in the committee letter, etc)? Don't tell ANYONE about this.

WOW! so there are some logical/realistic pre-meds out there... not just the overly fake/naiive...etc.

About the dean's letter, if the dean was nice enough to not put it in any official record, then the student can just talk to the dean again and make sure it won't appear on any letters... I don't see why the dean wouldn't agree to that.

 

[Virgil]

A clarification: I start medical school in a couple of weeks. 😉 So please stop thinking it's about me.

lol. "So, like, I have this friend who had unprotected sex with 2 hookers last night and he's really really really worried that he got teh AIDS. He's totally like omg freaking out right now. What should my friend do???"

 

[ACSurgeon]

Do NOT let your friend just put "No" without talking to someone about it first, whether a pre-med adviser or a dean. Even though there won't be a permanent record of it THERE WILL BE A RECORD OF IT SOMEWHERE. More likely than not there will be a sealed letter in your (his?) file stating what happened, and the letter will be destroyed after graduation. Deans can't just completely disregard an event (well, I guess they technically CAN, but they won't). What happens if you cheat again? The Dean needs to be able to say, "This happened before, you had your warning then, now there will be more serious consequences." There IS some sort of record of your cheating that will allow deans to know that you are a repeat offender if it happens again. Therefore, the dean, or pre-med adviser, or whoever is going to vouch for you when med schools ask whether you have a clean slate is already in a position to screw you over. The best way to proceed is to email whoever will be writing the letter with something along the lines of, "This is what happened, this is what the dean said, no action was taking, I was making sure I didn't need to report it." You can ask it anonymously if you want, but make sure you get the okay from your adviser. Otherwise you will spend the entire process wondering whether med schools know that you cheated and worrying that it will somehow come out.

What are you talking about... I only had professors write me letters, and that was enough... no vouching is necessary, or atleast it's not like a routine thing.

 

[ACSurgeon]

So here is a differnet situation:

You are a resident, and one of your fellow residents (say in anesthesia) has developed a drug addiction (trust me, those docs have access to a ton of drugs)... what do you do in this case?





Believe me, the ethicists of our hospital all agree you TALK to said resident, see if they promise to get help/stop (in extreme cases, you can MAKE SURE they get help, not that they 'come clean to the authorities'). If he/she gets better, you should be happy for them and forget it happened. You DON'T report it (or insist that they do)... I think an impaired resident is much much more dangerous than a pre-med student who copied off of his friend's 2 point quiz... just sayin

 

[flip26]

WOW! so there are some logical/realistic pre-meds out there... not just the overly fake/naiive...etc.

About the dean's letter, if the dean was nice enough to not put it in any official record, then the student can just talk to the dean again and make sure it won't appear on any letters... I don't see why the dean wouldn't agree to that.

There was a similar thread about that very situation a few months ago, and the student "asked the dean" about that little cheating incident freshman year, and the dean said "oh, if someone asks me about it, I will have to tell them because it is recorded in my private file" even though the student was pretty sure he was in the clear and felt like he had simply stirred it up again by asking about it...

Not sure the moral of this story, but I would let sleeping dogs lie and not bring it up with the dean...if there had been an official recording of the incident, it seems the student would have been given something in writing...but I guess the truth is that these incidents, even if not "officially" recorded and reprimanded, can follow a student for years and years...

 

[SamScribe]

Oh, and do NOT ask some douche bag pre-med adviser what he thinks about this...why would you EVER present such a thing to someone who is in the position of totally screwing you up in this process (if he is involved in the committee letter, etc)? Don't tell ANYONE about this.

I guess I'm fake/naive, but I would tell my pre med adviser. They're trying to help you get into medical school. Unless you have a poor relationship with them and think that they actually don't want you to go to medical school, why wouldn't you tell them? They probably have a much better idea as to what is recorded where, and the ramifications of checking yes.

I would feel much better discussing it and getting it out in the open then hiding it and worrying about someone finding out.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

lol. "So, like, I have this friend who had unprotected sex with 2 hookers last night and he's really really really worried that he got teh AIDS. He's totally like omg freaking out right now. What should my friend do???"

virgil, para's not like that.

 

[StIGMA]

Haven't read the other posts.

The way it is worded on AMCAS is that he should put it down.

 

[paradocs we are]

virgil, para's not like that.

I concur. 😀

 

[Virgil]

I concur. 😀

You're sounding like a doctor already!

 

[gabem480]

Hell No stay away from cheating select no it could potentially kill your friends hopes and dreams.

 

[flip26]

Haven't read the other posts.

The way it is worded on AMCAS is that he should put it down.

I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work there, Stigma (a Fargo reference).

Here is the relevant passage:

You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any
institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition. If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record.

I think there is room for some interpretation here - the key term is "institutional action" - did the OP describe an "institutional action" or not...the "institution" took no "action" that I can see...at most schools, if you are accused of cheating, you are entitled to some sort of hearing or trial...no indication of that...unless the OP signed something admitting the charge, I don't see that he was convicted of anything...

Nonetheless, as AMCAS suggests, he should ask the registrar or student affairs officer if there are any institutional actions or any other black marks noted on his records.

 

[paradocs we are]

You're sounding like a doctor already!

Phew. *wipes sweat off brow*

 

[Retsage]

Are you insane?

It's not on his permanent record. No action was taken. You check "NO."

 

[paradocs we are]

Are you insane?

It's not on his permanent record. No action was taken. You check "NO."

I'm merely posing a question. The answer is ultimately going to be determined by my friend.

But yes, I lack sanity.

 

[Retsage]

I fear for your friend, as it seems like you're hell-bent on having him check off that "yes" box. Do you dislike him immensely?

 

[paradocs we are]

I fear for your friend, as it seems like you're hell-bent on having him check off that "yes" box. Do you dislike him immensely?

If I were to base decisions on whether or not I "liked" my friend, I'd be biased. Again, I'm trying to be objective here.

To answer your question, however, I do not dislike my friend. Far from it. As a friend, I'd advise "no." As an objective bystander, I'd advise "yes". That's why I asked the question on here, to get opinions from people. So far, I'm convinced by some of the ideas that were put out there.

 

[Retsage]

You are supposed to advise him as a friend, not as an objective bystander. What is the matter with you?

 

[suwaifo]

My friend is applying to medical schools this year and he's gotten himself into some trouble. I was hoping someone could help. He was caught cheating but the dean decided to give him a second chance and so it didn't go on his permanent record. Should he check yes to committing an offense on his AMCAS application? I personally think he should. Any ideas on what he should do?

Edit: So people ultimately would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught? So in the future if his patient is harmed because of malpractice, but he's perfectly capable of covering his butt, then it's alright?

No no, not all people are dishonest. The right thing to do would to check that box. Well, I don't know what the box exactly says, but if it says, "have you ever cheated?" then yeah, you would be obligated to check yes if you have cheated. Easy enough. The box wouldn't be there if it had no purpose.

It's funny because if your idiot friend didn't choose to cheat, he wouldn't be in this situation. You reap what you sow.

 

[suwaifo]

Hell No stay away from cheating select no it could potentially kill your friends hopes and dreams.

That's why you don't cheat.

 

[kanoe]

My friend is applying to medical schools this year and he's gotten himself into some trouble. I was hoping someone could help. He was caught cheating but the dean decided to give him a second chance and so it didn't go on his permanent record. Should he check yes to committing an offense on his AMCAS application? I personally think he should. Any ideas on what he should do?

Edit: So people ultimately would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught? So in the future if his patient is harmed because of malpractice, but he's perfectly capable of covering his butt, then it's alright?

no, and you are a bad friend for even asking. that's the problem with ultra competitive premeds, they are out to screw everyone over, even if they are their own "friends."

 

[gasdf1234567]

My friend is applying to medical schools this year and he's gotten himself into some trouble. I was hoping someone could help. He was caught cheating but the dean decided to give him a second chance and so it didn't go on his permanent record. Should he check yes to committing an offense on his AMCAS application? I personally think he should. Any ideas on what he should do?

Edit: So people ultimately would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught? So in the future if his patient is harmed because of malpractice, but he's perfectly capable of covering his butt, then it's alright?

The two situations are just not comparable, sorry. People try to translate every little action or decision into decisions as a doctor but it just doesn't work that way.

To answer your question, YES people would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught. Why ask this type of question if you were only looking for one answer, ready to imply that those who answer a different way are unethical?

 

[flaahless]

Why do you think he should check yes? Because it might be recorded somewhere else less-official? Or because that's what jesus would do?

I wouldn't flag himself if the school didn't deem it necessary to discipline him for it.

Hahaha and co-sign.

 

[Virgil]

Look--people make mistakes, but I don't think the friend's mistake is so horrible that he should throw away his entire career.

 

[paradocs we are]

Hahaha and co-sign.

Word. 😎

 

[paradocs we are]

The two situations are just not comparable, sorry. People try to translate every little action or decision into decisions as a doctor but it just doesn't work that way.

To answer your question, YES people would choose dishonesty over honesty if one isn't caught. Why ask this type of question if you were only looking for one answer, ready to imply that those who answer a different way are unethical?

Nope, I was just putting that idea forward - that ethical behaviour (or lack thereof) may be a reflection of one's character. Of course, we all mistakes and since it's my friend, this was certainly one of those.

 

[TheWildcat08]

A clarification: I start medical school in a couple of weeks. 😉 So please stop thinking it's about me.

it doesn't matter! this site is annonymous!

 

[flip26]

No no, not all people are dishonest. The right thing to do would to check that box. Well, I don't know what the box exactly says, but if it says, "have you ever cheated?" then yeah, you would be obligated to check yes if you have cheated. Easy enough. The box wouldn't be there if it had no purpose.

It's funny because if your idiot friend didn't choose to cheat, he wouldn't be in this situation. You reap what you sow.

As a pre-med, you need to be aware of what the "box" asks...students are obligated to report "institutional actions" that they have received, for a full host of infractions including cheating, plagiarism, etc.

There is no "have you ever cheated" question or box that I am aware of...

I certainly don't condone cheating, but I would not confess to anything I am not required to do...with the limited info the OP provided, it sounds like his "friend" was "caught" cheating, but no institutional action was taken (unless he "confessed" or even signed some sort of confession, but even if all he did was admit it to the dean, he has a problem here, but we don't know any of these details)...the question is did the person receive an "institutional action?" Based on what we were told, I lean towards "no," but with more info it might be a definite "yes."

And for argument's sake it would not be unreasonable to say that an institutional action was taken by the dean - the "action" was in effect "no action taken or recorded" but again, we weren't provided with enough info...only the OP's friend knows what really transpired with the dean...

Nonetheless, he should check with the registrar or the person at his college who maintains records of institutional actions - either he has one recorded or he doesn't - nobody knows for sure, and this could end up biting him in the ass if it turns out there was an institutional action recorded that gets reported by a dean's letter or some other means.