CHEATING in med school

[Kathye42]

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Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

 

[qqq]

so what school is it? don't be skerd

 

[Arsenic]

Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

that seriously sucks but how did you find out if they are so secretive?

 

[Fenrezz]

Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

Hate to say it, but welcome to medical scool.

 

[Kathye42]

that seriously sucks but how did you find out if they are so secretive?

A 2nd year student told me. He gave old exams to certain people in my class.

 

[TruTrooper]

Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

Soory but I recall a popular survey in which they asked college students if they had a chance to cheat on a test would they and about 70% answered "yes." I think you must be amongst that 30%...at least for now.

 

[Arsenic]

A 2nd year student told me. He gave old exams to certain people in my class.

wow, comforting to find out at the end of your first year after you've busted your a** all this time. 👎

 

[Tallguy]

Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

I am not sure if that is really cheating...we have school sponsored organizations that sell us exams from previous years.... It is selfish, but it doesn't shock me. That's why you have to constantly watch your back in medical school.

(unless you mean that they have them with them during the exams)

 

[gildas]

Using old exams for tests? That is not fair. BTW I thought they always make big deals about how cheating does not pay off in med school.

 

[Blue Scrub]

As far as using old exams to study for current exams...that isn't cheating, all my friends in med school, as well as when I took med classes in grad school, we all got old tests to study from......to not share tests with other classmates is just a gunner thing to do.......but I dont think cheating has occurred at all in this situation......it is the responsibility of the professor teaching the class to change the exam every year....if they choose not to change it from last year, its their fault

 

[renox9]

that really sucks, I'm so sorry! To add my own story of cheating from NYMC...

This year someone left behind a calculator after a round of biochemistry and physiology tests, and the teachers found that there were loads of information stored in the programs section. Of course, nobody owned up to having misplaced their calculator.

I think alot of med students are so caught up in looking good on paper they forget how cheating actually hurts them in the long run.

I also found myself thinking "gosh, if I had figured out that whole store-info-in-programs cheating technique in physics, maybe I could have gotten a better grade!" So I guess I've got that urge to look better on paper regardless of the cost as well....just have to remind myself that it isn't worth it.

 

[Kathye42]

The thing that really sucks is that certain professors don't prepare a new test and use an old one, so that people get 100%!!!!

 

[Arsenic]

As far as using old exams to study for current exams...that isn't cheating, all my friends in med school, as well as when I took med classes in grad school, we all got old tests to study from......to not share tests with other classmates is just a gunner thing to do.......but I dont think cheating has occurred at all in this situation......it is the responsibility of the professor teaching the class to change the exam every year....if they choose not to change it from last year, its their fault

some schools make it a big deal, at mine it would be a total violation of the honor code and grounds for dismissal.

 

[Blue Scrub]

The thing that really sucks is that certain professors don't prepare a new test and use an old one, so that people get 100%!!!!

Yeah that's kinda ridiculous when that happens....only makes the prof look bad

 

[criminallyinane]

This year someone left behind a calculator after a round of biochemistry and physiology tests, and the teachers found that there were loads of information stored in the programs section. Of course, nobody owned up to having misplaced their calculator.

Wow, if you can't deal with learning biochem and physio yourself, what kind of doctor are you going to be? That's why I don't understand cheating in medical school. People who cheat in undergrad on stuff like organic chemistry, well, they're stupid, but I can understand it: who needs to know the diels-alder reaction to be a good doc? But cheating in medical school is so different. If you can't get it together to learn physiology, then how will you understand the disease processes going on in your patients? Biochem I can see people wanting to cheat on with the multiple enzymes in fuel metabolism, but physio? Geez. It's just so wrong. It's not that hard to pass classes in medical school, is it? Or are people just gunning for the honors grades? So sad.

 

[abbaroodle]

It depends on your school and your classes if having old exams is cheating or not.

We have co-ops with old exams which the profs know about, and they are totally legal. However, some exams are not returned to students and students are not allowed to pass along questions to future students. However, you can go to the office and borrow your exam if you want to study from it. Or sometimes they are posted. Obviously, using those exams would be cheating.

 

[medstyle]

i dont think its such a big deal to use old tests if you can access them, unless its banned by the honor code. Anyone who violates the honor code of a school is pretty lame though.

 

[Blue Scrub]

some schools make it a big deal, at mine it would be a total violation of the honor code and grounds for dismissal.

Yeah that's prob right...Im sure its up to the school and its profs whether or not to let students use old exams to study from

 

[Monty Python]

Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

... and those cheating classmates of yours will have a much more difficult time on the USMLE, the great equalizer.

 

[Arsenic]

Yeah that's prob right...Im sure its up to the school and its profs whether or not to let students use old exams to study from

The thing is that our school numbers every exam and answer sheet and both have to returned after every exam. So if a sophomore has a copy of a test floating around that means they stole it.

 

[skypilot]

Our school publishes copies of the old exams for us to use! 🙂

 

[DrMom]

The thing that really sucks is that certain professors don't prepare a new test and use an old one, so that people get 100%!!!!

If the professors let students keep their tests, then it is their own fault...they should make new tests or not allow students to keep the tests. Also, if the tests are allowed to be kept and people use them to prepare, I'd have a hard time calling that cheating.

 

[smgilles]

Our school publishes copies of the old exams for us to use! 🙂

Same at LECOM. Our OMM exams are old test questions. You just study old exams and that's it.

 

[Kathye42]

If the professors let students keep their tests, then it is their own fault...they should make new tests or not allow students to keep the tests. Also, if the tests are allowed to be kept and people use them to prepare, I'd have a hard time calling that cheating.

The tests are not allowed to be kept. Every time we take a test, each test is numbered. Students steal those tests or memorize and then copy the questions.

 

[Arsenic]

The tests are not allowed to be kept. Every time we take a test, each test is numbered. Students steal those tests or memorize and then copy the questions.

thats definitely cheating, I can totally understand why you're upset. they may be sliding by now but when they take the USMLE they are going to be way behind and totally unfamiliar with a lot of the material.

 

[DrMom]

The tests are not allowed to be kept. Every time we take a test, each test is numbered. Students steal those tests or memorize and then copy the questions.

Well, that's a totally different situation then.

 

[Blue Scrub]

The thing is that our school numbers every exam and answer sheet and both have to returned after every exam. So if a sophomore has a copy of a test floating around that means they stole it.

That sounds like a good system

 

[toofache32]

Using old exams for tests? That is not fair.

It's different at every school and you should find out. Our profs where I went to college used to give out their old tests as another resource. The questions weren't reused but it helped you identify your weaknesses. Then...I did summer school at another college and the day before our first exam the prof was reviewing and asked if there were any questions. I raised my hand and asked if he had any old exams for us to review. The whole class glared at me (including the prof) like I had just asked for nude pictures of his wife. And no...there was no honor code or any written policies regarding old exams.

 

[toofache32]

Old exams don't keep you from "learning the material well." If anything, it helps to learn it better. If you just study them anticipating the same questions...you're an idiot because you don't know if the questions will be the same or not. You still have to learn the material....old exams are just another resource to test yourself, identify weaknesses, and to understand how questions are asked.

 

[whispers]

Hate to say it, but welcome to medical scool.

Ditto. I learned that the hard way most med students are . . .

 

[Blake]

Ditto. I learned that the hard way most med students are . . .

 

[kingcer0x]

All the more reason why 1st year grades matter diddly squat.

It is much harder to cheat on the boards, and I dont think it is possible to cheat when dealing with patients, but who knows maybe they will figure out a way to do that too!

So let the cheaters think they are smart until they get exposed for the frauds that they are.

 

[medstyle]

i think old exams should be part of the materials available to study for an exam. If anything, it helps you remember things better before the exam. I think schools that dont give you access to old exams are the same ones that test people on minutia over and over again. Anytime you do poorly on an exam where you know most of the material, it is only because the prof is a jerk.

I hate when my studying is focused on securing a grade and not on learning the material. Its weird how the two tend to be mutually exclusive.

 

[callendm]

The thing is that our school numbers every exam and answer sheet and both have to returned after every exam. So if a sophomore has a copy of a test floating around that means they stole it.

Well, then that is def. cheating. About half of our classes are sequestered/collected exams. And we only have very old exams passed down from generation after generation for such classes. Students here actually send out emails with the old exams/review sheets/etc.

There was a checklist going around that included all the criteria for our patient History and Practical that some second years passed on. This was a sheet reviewed with a preceptor after the exam that is collected each year. The school sent a simple email and the problem was fixed. I you request the same. I seriously doubt 95% of medical students would knowingly cheat as the risk is way too high, kicked out of school, unable to reapply, never becoming a doctor. When a key is posted before everyone has taking an exam (a few people "call out sick") I first think it may lead to cheating. But then again, that would be the worst to get caught and just not worth it one bit.

 

[dtreese]

We have test files that get passed down each year, and a lot of our profs put study questions in the IT center. All things considered, I like it. Kinda sucks if some people are getting info that others aren't, though.

 

[hdu]

From my Faculty Handbook:
"Professors must assume that previous exam questions are circulated amongst the students (particularly after exam reviews). Thus, professors are responsible for generating new questions each exam. If students complain to Administration about exams not being sufficiently different from previous terms (which thus confers an advantage to those who have access to the previous questions), it is the professor’s responsibility to prove to Administration that exams are indeed sufficiently different as to obviate the claims of unfairness. Otherwise, Administration has the right to intervene and impose a remedy.

An effective way of dealing with the fact that a select group of students may have access to former exam questions is to make old exams openly available to all students. If this option is chosen, then faculty must ensure that new exams have questions that are rephrased sufficiently differently from previous exams so that the student has to do more than just memorize the correct answer from previous tests. In addition, any old exams that are circulated should not have the correct answers noted. New tests must also be of sufficient breadth so that students do not just study material restricted to the known test items. "

 

[velo]

Hi! I'm pretty mad 😡 bec lately I found out that a lot of people in my 1st year class have been cheating and gotten A's. They have old tests from 2nd year students and they hide them even from their closest friends. I know med school is very competitive but never imagined that future doctors would stoop that low. You cannot trust anyone in med school!! This has been my experience so far. Do some of you have this problem at your school???

that's a dick move, but I don't think studying old exams qualifies as "cheating." keeping the exams to themselves qualifies as "gunnerish" but studying old exams is a standard way to prepare for a test. Here the 2nd years give the first years giant boxes filled with years upon years of old exams, and old exams and student generated review sheets are posted to a student run website for all to use. I wouldn't accuse my class of widespread cheating for these study strategies...

 

[velo]

Wow, if you can't deal with learning biochem and physio yourself, what kind of doctor are you going to be? That's why I don't understand cheating in medical school. People who cheat in undergrad on stuff like organic chemistry, well, they're stupid, but I can understand it: who needs to know the diels-alder reaction to be a good doc? But cheating in medical school is so different. If you can't get it together to learn physiology, then how will you understand the disease processes going on in your patients? Biochem I can see people wanting to cheat on with the multiple enzymes in fuel metabolism, but physio? Geez. It's just so wrong. It's not that hard to pass classes in medical school, is it? Or are people just gunning for the honors grades? So sad.

haha, its funny to see how quickly that line gets blurred. How can you cheat? Well i guess ugrad ochem i can understand...how can you cheat in med school?! Oh, well I guess biochem i understand...but not physio! well...not most of physio but...

cheating is just wrong in any situation

 

[Scytale911]

I gotta tell you that in France cheating in my med school is almost a religion, I'd say there's a minority who knows the subjects because they are Pr Shmurtz's son or daughter, and half of the class exchange information freely during the tests, the surveillance being so lame. I wouldn't care being in the lasts of the class if clinical rotations didn't depend on the final standing!!

And the worse I think this is the final national contest at the end of med school when you know that hundred of candidates know what is going to be asked, knowing that standings makes you choose the specialty you want or not

 

[brightblueeyes]

I gotta tell you that in France cheating in my med school is almost a religion, I'd say there's a minority who knows the subjects because they are Pr Shmurtz's son or daughter, and half of the class exchange information freely during the tests, the surveillance being so lame. I wouldn't care being in the lasts of the class if clinical rotations didn't depend on the final standing!!

And the worse I think this is the final national contest at the end of med school when you know that hundred of candidates know what is going to be asked, knowing that standings makes you choose the specialty you want or not

What are you talking about?! Are you saying that you know of people who've cheated on the ENC? How is this possible?

As for cheating during med school, administrators at the Paris schools seem to go to obsessive lengths to ensure that cheating simply isn't possible for any tests that matter, especially any concours.

If you know of someone who cheated during a DCEM course, this seems pretty dumb since these grades aren't used for anything later on. What's the point? Since the whole purpose of all the DCEM courses is to prepare for the ENC it seems to defeat the whole purpose of the test if someone cheats.

However, if you know of someone who was able to cheat on the ENC this is really serious. Can you back this up?

Comments like this really get to me because you're feeding a stereotype that I think is complete garbage: i.e. the French are more likely to cheat than North Americans. But from what I've seen first hand, the opposite is the case. I'm familiar with two North American universities and I was frustrated by how much some people bent or flouted rules to eke out a few extra points on their exams. (It's not that these were "bad" people, it's just that they seemed to think that the things they did weren't really cheating or were fairly "harmless" cheating.) The things that irritated me so much back home don't seem possible at my school in Paris and I think this is a good thing. I really like how strict the school is. I also like that the students I've met don't seem to cut corners.

Perhaps Marseille is different from Paris but I also wonder how familiar you are with North American schools. Frankly, there are a couple of things France seems to get right when it comes to education. And just because someone from a NA schools says there's no cheating at his or her college doesn't make it so. I certainly don't think it's widespread but I know of a handful of students in NA med schools who cheated during their undergrad so it's not out of the question.

 

[Scytale911]

Ok, I believe you, I was just saying that in my class 70% people cheat in dcem, none in pcem1 because it's a real thing so surveillance team does its job! I don't how things go on elsewhere, I really don't know.
For the ENC, it's a common knowledge that few students have access to the tests before the national contest itself

My co students aside of me don't know anything ANYTHING, and they cheat a lot and don't write anything on the sheet but whatever they finish at the end of the year at the middle of the class!!!! ****ty studies gotta tell

 

[Paws]

Trust me, you'd rather learn the material well and get comparatively crappy preclinical grades, but smoke the USMLE, than get stellar grades, not learn the material well, and end up with a crappy Step 1 score. The former will hurt your chances of getting AOA, but the latter will dramatically reduce your options for residency.

At my school we have the same thing going on and plenty of people will not share the old exams. It's really a sucky thing to see your fellow classmates poring over old exams, which they are keeping entirely to themselves.

Ah welcome to medschool, exactly. 🙄

I guess the thing is, being actually in medschool means that all those incredibly competitive premeds you thought you left behind in ugrad - are all HERE!!

As usual, I agree with Samoa. I would rather bust my hump and learn the material as best I can, retain it, maybe not ace the exam or anything, but then still have that knowledge base to use for the usmle, and clinical years. Plus, cheating is a weird waste of time and it makes me feel yucky. I like to sleep well at night.

 

[rpkall]

This is a good point, brought up earlier, but it begs the question, where do you draw the line? Is much of med school relevant if you want to be a psychiatrist? Or a rheumatologist?

Sure, you need a background understanding to practice any specialty, and I'm not arguing that a medical fund of knowledge isn't one of the most important elements of any good physician, but how much nephrology do you need to know to manage bipolar disorder? How many DSM-IV criteria do you have to memorize to be a surgeon or pathologist?

We could sit around constructing scenarios all day.

It's a slippery slope, no?

Cheating shouldn't be justified, and frankly, I think it's a little scary that med students would do it. I'm worried enough about remembering all the information when it counts--even after I *do* study it for hours. I can't imagine how unprepared I would be if I took shortcuts.

 

[brightblueeyes]

...For the ENC, it's a common knowledge that few students have access to the tests before the national contest itself

Scytale911, you say it's common knowledge that a few students have access to ENC questions before it takes place. How is this possible?

My co students aside of me don't know anything ANYTHING, and they cheat a lot and don't write anything on the sheet but whatever they finish at the end of the year at the middle of the class!!!! ****ty studies gotta tell

If this is true, don't you think these classmates of yours are going to get burned on the ENC? (Being middle of their class means nothing...especially if they tank the ENC.) In the Paris schools, students seem very focused on ENC prep. Students seem very keen but it has nothing to do with currying favour with a supervisor or getting an extra point or two on a DCEM test. Instead, they seem to see the last three years of clinical training and exams as simply a means to an end: to get the best clinical preparation they can to be ready for the ENC.

I really like the way France handles advancement to postgraduate studies. It's very rigorous and removes a lot of the subjectivity (and currying favour) inherent in many other systems. But this hinges on the ENC being perfectly fair. If some people are getting questions in advance, this is really serious. And if you or anyone you know has any evidence of this, it should be reported immediately.

 

[Scytale911]

Problem is that the ENC is made to compare students that are not likely to be compared, Paris med schools have more more money than small regional med schools and the externship is not the same also, it's completely dumb. Besides, you can't choose the med school you access to, it's a regional matter, you go where you graduate in high school. In a way, it's like the united states because it's a money-based success, if you have enough money to go to a good prep, you're almost sure to choose the internship you want, on the opposite if you only have the money to buy pasta and rent the appartment you're screwed.
No really, some countries are attracted to our national standing system (key words!!!) but at the end no one is satisfied