Chem vs. Bio @ Undergrad (MINI RANT)

[thegame2388]

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Well, I'm going to UCSD starting this year and I originally declared myself a chemistry major. However, I kept looking at the long term planning guide to a Chemistry degree and it kept showing physics! I hate physics! It's not even required for Dental Schools; in all honesty, I'm a bit depressed, negative towards all this dental hoopla because it's so hard to get into a dental schoo. I mean, what if I major in biology (and no physics courses yes!) and don't get accepted to dental school? What can I possibly do with a biology major? I like Biology just as much as chemistry, I just want my classes to be relatively easy to get A's. Ugh, I mean, I want to do well and get into a dental school in California. I honestly don't want to be rejected with a bio/chem degree, sitting there, doing nothing. And finally, how do you people cope with these ADDITIONAL requirements that all these schools make you complete? Zoology? Biochemistry? I know a bio or chem degree takes care of a GREAT GREAT deal of these reqs but how do you expect to finish all these in 4yrs. I also plan on becoming an orthodontist, it's such a clean job, but what about the yrs of residency? I don't wanna waste 10+ of my life like this! I know I sound cruel, depressed, and whiney, but I'm just 18 for Christ's sake and I'm already worrying about everything. Someone help me.

 

[ColdFish]

Show me a dental school that doesn't require physics

 

[Chrono1984]

Not sure what dental schools you are looking at, but 2 semesters of Physics was required at every school I applied to.

 

[shamrock2006]

yea physics is a requirement...its just not tested on the DAT...which i find very odd, but whatever...i never have to take that test again. Now its boards to look forward to in a couple years!

 

[lifeisgood]

Coming from a UCSD alum who was accepted to UCLA this year...do the Biochem/Cell Bio major. It's what I did and it was awesome. I was originally Biochem/chem and then I found out about PChem. That class will kill you if you hate physics. There is no way around physics as everyone has mentioned but the Biochem/Cell bio major will give you the best of both worlds for bio & chem and IMO is not quite as difficult as a straight chem major.

 

[Regmata]

If you are looking for easy A's, forget about being an orthodontist now...actually, forget about being a dentist now. Full course loads of hard sciences are not easy. Essentially all professional health programs have the same requirements for entry and they all include physics among other difficult courses. What is nice, is that there are plenty of professions with the same prerequisites as dental school enabling you to have a fall back plan.

The road to becoming a dentist or any other health professional is long and hard. Why? Because the professions are prestigous, enjoyable, fulfilling and extremely well compensated. Nothing comes easy and becoming a dentist is no exception.

 

[thegame2388]

Oh okay...Well if physics is required, then what do you guys suggest as the 'easiest science major' to get into a dental school in California? As for the fall back plan, the only other fall back I can think of is Pharmacy, so that's it.

 

[Regmata]

Your ignorance is almost amusing. Aside from medicine, podiatry, optometry, physician's assistant, chiropractor, nurse practioner, pharmacy, pharmacuetical/surgical sales and whatever other health profession I left out...you could get a phd in any number of different sciences or possibly engineering... enabling work in plenty of different fields. Aside from that, you could become a lawyer, psychologist, get your MBA...the subject content of your undergrad degree means very little. As long as you dabble all over the board and have the core sciences, you leave the doors to most careers open.

If you want easy...forget dentistry now and go for one of the less competitive fields.

 

[thegame2388]

Oh, my bad. That's much better; I don't want easy, I want something I can do well at. I don't want to waste 4 years of my university life only to be rejected by a dental school I've dreamt of. That's all

 

[Regmata]

All you can do is your best. Follow the guidelines for how to get into a school. Get the grades and do well on the DAT. It is a gamble, but if you really want it, it is a gamble worth taking.

 

[thegame2388]

Gamble? Yeah I can gamble my life away! Ahhhh. Okay, well I'll try to get A's as much as I can...and before, I thought B's were good grades; now they're only there to bring my overall GPA down. It seems that straight A's in college is the only way to get 3.6+

 

[rose786]

Your ignorance is almost amusing. Aside from medicine, podiatry, optometry, physician's assistant, chiropractor, nurse practioner, pharmacy, pharmacuetical/surgical sales and whatever other health profession I left out...you could get a phd in any number of different sciences or possibly engineering... enabling work in plenty of different fields. Aside from that, you could become a lawyer, psychologist, get your MBA...the subject content of your undergrad degree means very little. As long as you dabble all over the board and have the core sciences, you leave the doors to most careers open.

If you want easy...forget dentistry now and go for one of the less competitive fields.

I think what the OP meant was - you can't get a job with just a bachelor's in biology. I'm inclined to agree, even small-time labs require at least a Masters.

 

[Regmata]

I think what the OP meant was - you can't get a job with just a bachelor's in biology. I'm inclined to agree, even small-time labs require at least a Masters.

I figured that went without saying...a bachelors degree offers very few opportunities anymore...in any field.

 

[thegame2388]

Then....what if all Dental schools reject me? Then I'm really screwed!

 

[PChemGrad]

Oh, my bad. That's much better; I don't want easy, I want something I can do well at. I don't want to waste 4 years of my university life only to be rejected by a dental school I've dreamt of. That's all

You are very ignorant, reminds me of myself when I was your age. If I only knew then what I know now. I dreamed of going to dental school, started off a Bio major so I started with Bio 1. Half way into the class I got frustrated and didnt do as well as I would have liked, I ended up with a C. A year later and switching majors a few times I decided to take College Chemistry 😱 and wound up enjoying it. I spent the rest of my time doing something I enjoyed. Went to grad school was set to get my PhD and realized I didnt want to be a lab rat for the rest of my life, so I applied to dental school and got in.
Do something you enjoy, that a way you have a chance to experience everything college has to offer, you may find something more rewarding than "Science" or a career in dentistry. that a way if you dont get in you will have something to fall back on. UCSD has many different paths you can take, and you dont have to be a science major to go to dental school. you can go into sociology (a lot of girls in that major 😉) and still complete the requirements for dental school, you may just have to take a few extra classes, but that is what it takes to become a dentist, and whats expected of you in dental school.
Bio majors have to take physics as well.
One reason they have you take so many "hard" classes is to weed out all the people who arent determined enough or quite frankly bright enough. you have to be a relatively smart person to go into the health care field, and a lot of folks are not.
Forget about being a orthodontist right now. you first have to make it through college, take the DATs, get into dental school, and then survive dental school before you can start thinking about specializing. you might find you have a knack for a different specialty in dental school, so explore all of them before deciding on what to specialize in, if at all.
You will encounter a lot of students who say they are pre-med/dental/pharm/law... are are very adamant about it, but truth be told 2 years down the road only a small fraction of them will still be in that position.
My suggestion, dont hate on physics until you've taken in. Start off as a chem or bio major, but take courses outside of your major, dont brag about being pre-dental, enjoy what college has to offer, find a major that you enjoy it doesnt have to be what your parents what you to major in. After you've decided what you want to do, econ, history, philosophy, ecology, ... then worry on getting your required dental classes out of the way. You will have enough time to get all required and quite a few recommended classes out of the way by the time you apply. You want to work hard now, so later on you dont have to.
If you are like this right now, you will never survive.

 

[PChemGrad]

Then....what if all Dental schools reject me? Then I'm really screwed!

go crying home to your parents :cry:
Have them write a school a large check and you will be golden.

or do like the rest of us, be confident in ourselves, improve our application, retake the DATs, get a masters degree or enroll in a post-bac program, and reapply until you get in.

 

[Regmata]

No guts, no glory...relax and do what you need to, the rest will take care of itself.

 

[thegame2388]

Thanks to PChemGrad

 

[Meatwad]

It seems that straight A's in college is the only way to get 3.6+

Actually, that would be straight A-'s.

 

[thegame2388]

Wait I have two more questions

1) During what year undergrad do people apply for Dental Schools and take the DAT itself?

2) How do you people make up for the differences between all the dental schools in requirements. I mean, how do you figure in the different requirements (English comp, zoology, psychology to say a few for the main schools). And can a AP score like AP English get rid of the English requirement for example?

 

[Regmata]

1) During what year undergrad do people apply for Dental Schools and take the DAT itself?

2) How do you people make up for the differences between all the dental schools in requirements. I mean, how do you figure in the different requirements (English comp, zoology, psychology to say a few for the main schools). And can a AP score like AP English get rid of the English requirement for example?

1) Take the DAT spring or early summer of your junior year, apply in the fall of your senior year...ideally. If you can't get it done by then, take the DAT the summer you graduate and take a year off of school getting in

2) Zoology (evolutionary biology) and cell biology are I believe the 2 core biology courses at most universities and are comparable to chem 1 and 2 and physics 1 and 2. Aside from that, the only other requirements not shared are biochem and physiology (both of which you will want to take) and a social science course like psych or sociology (these can be a welcome reprieve from sciences).

I don't know about AP courses though

 

[AmoDientes]

Not a lot of people like physics and you're not starting on the right foot if you're already freaking out about it. I've noticed that the people who do very well in science classes are the ones that try to enjoy learning the material as much as they can. I'm a Bio major and I'm not particularly fond of Physics or Cell Bio, but I constantly tricked myself into thinking that the material I was learning was truly interesting and got straight A's in those courses. It's the only way to survive, especially while you're taking those required courses. So chill out, take advantage of the education you're getting, and just do your best. Don't even think about specializing at this point in your education - just take things a step at a time. Cross that bridge when you get to it.

 

[Meatwad]

Not a lot of people like physics and you're not starting on the right foot if you're already freaking out about it. I've noticed that the people who do very well in science classes are the ones that try to enjoy learning the material as much as they can. I'm a Bio major and I'm not particularly fond of Physics or Cell Bio, but I constantly tricked myself into thinking that the material I was learning was truly interesting and got straight A's in those courses. It's the only way to survive, especially while you're taking those required courses. So chill out, take advantage of the education you're getting, and just do your best. Don't even think about specializing at this point in your education - just take things a step at a time. Cross that bridge when you get to it.

Haha, this is exactly what I do. Whether or not it's the best tactic, I don't know. I just lie to myself and trick myself into thinking I'm interested, and it's worked so far. I took 3 science courses and 2 math courses and was able to get a 4.0 this past semester with this "system," of learning.

 

[thegame2388]

I think I can get into Loma Linda....

 

[zoom12]

.

 

[thegame2388]

Thanks so much. Can someone answer my second question?

 

[PChemGrad]

I think I can get into Loma Linda....

what makes you think you can get into Loma Linda???😕

As of right now you can go to any school you want to. they are yours to lose, you have a clean slate, and depending on how you perform and what your interest are you will get accepted into almost every school.

Ohh ya, look at schools outside of California.
I grew up in California, went to undergrad in California, and absolutely love the state. But there is more out there than California, 49 other states, and only a few of them dont have dental schools. You can go to any of these schools and get a since of what other people in the US are like. I am going to dental school in Philly. I would have never thought I was going to live in Philly but that is where I got accepted to and I am going to embrace it. Live up the US, I know I can always move back to California, my home. But for the time I am going to experience what else this country has to offer. Would I have loved it if I got into dental school in Cali, yes I would have, but now I have an excuse to experience something else.
So dont say you only want to go to dental school in California, because there is soo much more out there. If you get in great, thats a hard thing to do, but there is more than just California, with its beaches, girls, mountains, girls, kindness of people, and just anything you want really, no dumb liquor laws.

 

[PChemGrad]

2) How do you people make up for the differences between all the dental schools in requirements. I mean, how do you figure in the different requirements (English comp, zoology, psychology to say a few for the main schools). And can a AP score like AP English get rid of the English requirement for example?

You take what your school offers, more or less all classes no matter where you take them will generally be the same.
So a intro to psychology at UCSD with for the most part be the same as a intro to psychology at Colorado College.
The "different requirements" are all more or less the same, but some schools want Biochem, psychology, Anatomy, or Microbio. You take what your school offers as far as these classes, and they will typically honor them, as long as you take the tougher of the class, if two versions of the same class are offered. i.e. "Rocks for Jocks" or "The Analysis of the Earths Strata", both classes will offer the same material but they would want you to take the class that analyzes the earths strata. thats just a hypothetical example.

I dont know about AP credit, cant hurt to retake the class at UCSD, it will ensure you learn the material.

 

[firecracked]

2) How do you people make up for the differences between all the dental schools in requirements. I mean, how do you figure in the different requirements (English comp, zoology, psychology to say a few for the main schools). And can a AP score like AP English get rid of the English requirement for example?

I'm not sure, but I'm under the impression that dental schools want you to take the courses at the college level, even if your ungrad school gives you credit for your AP scores and possibly lets you exempt/skip a class. You can always call a few dental schools and find out what they want.

 

[DrDDSman]

Most schools will take your AP credit, some might require you send them the test scores (annoying, I know). In my case, I tested out of a few classes. From what I've seen, only Tufts will not accept AP credit, I think you have to take upper level classes in that discipline or something), hence why I am not applying there. But you seem pretty set on a West Coast school, so it shouldn't a be a problem for you.


PS-Keep an open mind and a confident attitude. You haven't even started college yet. Even though you wanted to be a dentist for a long time, you might change you mind after taking a class you really like. For me, I wanted to be an engineer since I was a kid. I realized that I really like working with people, and helping them as well. Thats part of the reason I chose dentistry, but I'm still going to finish my engineering degree. Good luck kid.

 

[Streetwolf]

Most schools have a required first year writing course which almost always counts as the english requirement. Then you just need one more english course for certain schools (some want 3 credit hrs, others want 6). I luckily realized this junior year spring and took such a course. Thank god. I definitely would have been screwed if I didn't.

PS. I highly recommend taking biochem and physiology/anatomy. You will run into all 3 of these in d.school and it's nice to have some knowledge under your belt before you start.

 

[pmantz]

OP life is hard, there is no easy soft way no matter what proffesion you choose.
Stop whining, respect whatever path you will take. It seems to me you you don't respect the amount of work and effort required to gain acceptance to a professional school. There is a reason not everyone can become a dentist or there is only a 33% acceptance rate each year, it's competative and a lot of hard work. I like what Pchem said I had a similar experience, albeit I never went to grad school, but I struggled with bio(at first) and found my niche in chemistry. I later switched to biochem. Like Pchem said do something you like, don't waste 4 years trying to do the "easiest" thing. And please grow a pair.

 

[thegame2388]

Haha alright. I mean, I'll take the courses, I don't care, I just don't want to take more than 3-4 classes quarter, you know? Being overloaded with 5-6 classes seems like suicide to me.

 

[PChemGrad]

Haha alright. I mean, I'll take the courses, I don't care, I just don't want to take more than 3-4 classes quarter, you know? Being overloaded with 5-6 classes seems like suicide to me.

you do need to learn how to balance it out, but you need to average ~15.5 units a quarter to graduate on time. thats between 3 - 6 classes a quarter.

And if suicide is what you want, then that is what you will get in dental school where you complete ~25+ units a semester.

 

[thegame2388]

Yeah but in Dental School, grades don't matter. Who am I trying to impress? I can get straight B's or C's. It's fine. Six classes a quarter @ UCSD sounds totally insane!

 

[Meatwad]

Yeah but in Dental School, grades don't matter. Who am I trying to impress? I can get straight B's or C's. It's fine. Six classes a quarter @ UCSD sounds totally insane!

Do some more research; there is no way you will become an orthodontist with B's and C's in dental school. They are usually the top 10% of their class (although it seems a lot are even #1/2 or 3 in their class). Grades are definitely important if you want to specialize.

 

[thefifthbeatle]

Yeah but in Dental School, grades don't matter. Who am I trying to impress? I can get straight B's or C's. It's fine. Six classes a quarter @ UCSD sounds totally insane!

But you want to be an orthodontist?....grades DEF. matter in DS!!! Your statement is right if you want to be a general dentist.

 

[Regmata]

This is all a moot argument, with his attitude, he will never make it to dental school in the first place...let alone specialize

 

[thegame2388]

Oops, yeah I forgot about the Ortho deal. Grades do matter, you're right. It just strikes me as incredibly difficult for undergrads to fufill ALL THE REQUIREMENTS asked of them by the 15+ dental schools they are applying for. It's incredible.

 

[OceanBlue]

Although it's required, but from what I read in the forum a couple years ago there are a couple of schools that are willing to waive your one or both of your physics once you got in and you don't have time to take it. I wouldn't count of it though.

Show me a dental school that doesn't require physics

 

[DrDDSman]

Oops, yeah I forgot about the Ortho deal. Grades do matter, you're right. It just strikes me as incredibly difficult for undergrads to fufill ALL THE REQUIREMENTS asked of them by the 15+ dental schools they are applying for. It's incredible.

This is getting pretty amusing. I suggest you do some more research about what you need to get into dental school. And for that fact, maybe you should also take a look at your curriculum. You'll realize that you'll probably have most of the requirements done by the time you apply to dental school given you're going to be majoring in chem or bio. Like PChemGrad said, you have a clean slate (somthing along those lines). Don't screw it up by thinking you'll be able to breeze through it all..because the fact of the matter is nothing comes at you easy. You're going to have to work to get what you want, esp if its ortho you desire. Look up ortho residencies in the dental forum.

 

[Meatwad]

Oops, yeah I forgot about the Ortho deal. Grades do matter, you're right. It just strikes me as incredibly difficult for undergrads to fufill ALL THE REQUIREMENTS asked of them by the 15+ dental schools they are applying for. It's incredible.

If you plan on being a chemistry or biology major, it is not hard at all. It's not even hard if you are a history major. There is plenty of room for electives within any major (except for engineering). Any decent biology curriculum should include all the pre-reqs you need as part of the degree; at my school, a biology major has to take a year of calc-based physics, and I'm surprised a good school like UCSD doesn't require one year of physics as well. You need to calm down, you are burning out already and you've never even been in a lecture hall yet.

 

[Meatwad]

Actually, I just checked the UCSD website, and every concentration under the biology major requires two semesters of physics. So I'm not sure why you wrote:

what if I major in biology (and no physics courses yes!)

 

[thegame2388]

Yeah I know but the schedule seems pretty packed. How am I going to miraculously fit these dental school-indepedent requirements such as zoology microbiology, and biochemistry.

 

[Meatwad]

Yeah I know but the schedule seems pretty packed. How am I going to miraculously fit these dental school-indepedent requirements such as zoology microbiology, and biochemistry.

If you major in Biology, these will already be incorporated into your degree; for example, from the UCSD, the General Biology conc. requires you take Biochemistry and 9 additional Biology courses. So you have nine different courses to choose from, with which you can fill with dental pre-reqs. Every biology conc. of the biology major at UCSD allows you freedom to choose different biology electives. They are required for the degree, so there will be no problem fitting them all in. Some people pack in classes and even finish in 3 years.

Seriously, it's not that difficult. Is English your first language (not condescending you, I'm seriously asking)?

 

[thegame2388]

No, English is my 3rd language, but I'm a 1000000% native fluent speaker. Why? Did my English come off as foreign? No, I'm not a fob. I've grown up in the English world and been speaking English everyday for the past 10 years now. But, yeah I think you're right about the elective thing and how I can choose my classes; do you know if that's also possible in a chem major?

 

[Meatwad]

Did my English come off as foreign?

Yeah, but not that bad.

But, yeah I think you're right about the elective thing and how I can choose my classes; do you know if that's also possible in a chem major?

I don't know, check the bulletin; I don't go there. Obviously it would be more difficult to fit lots of biology electives if none of them are requirements for your major, but still totally possible and common. Chemistry majors make up a large proportion of medical and dental students every year.

If you really don't like physics, though, I don't think chemistry is a good idea. Chemistry itself is essentially applied physics at the molecular level.

 

[thegame2388]

Maybe my dislike of physics comes from the impression I have of it. I just think of the game, "The Incredibly Machine" with its strings and pulleys and I think of Einstein and force and gravity and this and that. I'm probably wrong though. On the http://provost.ucsd.edu/roosevelt/academics/documents/chem06.pdf website, it says MAJ UD elective and elective lab, also; All those GE's, only 3 of them actually apply to me, so I'll have more room....I hope I'm speculating everything correctly here....

 

[thegame2388]

When schools like UCLA or Loma Linda mention Physics with lab for one academic year, does that mean, say two quarters sophomore year plus 1 quarter junior year to make up 1 full academic "year" or do they mean those classes must be complete within one year, meaning freshman, soph, junior, or senior....I hope that doesn't confuse anyone. Also, that chemistry major has no biology requirements to fufill the major but the dental schools obviously do. It just seems to me that the chemistry major OVER prepares you....meaning, it gives you too many chemistry courses when I only really need 1 year organic, 1 year general chem.

 

[DrDDSman]

When schools like UCLA or Loma Linda mention Physics with lab for one academic year, does that mean, say two quarters sophomore year plus 1 quarter junior year to make up 1 full academic "year" or do they mean those classes must be complete within one year, meaning freshman, soph, junior, or senior....I hope that doesn't confuse anyone. Also, that chemistry major has no biology requirements to fufill the major but the dental schools obviously do. It just seems to me that the chemistry major OVER prepares you....meaning, it gives you too many chemistry courses when I only really need 1 year organic, 1 year general chem.

Listen man, you sound like you're freaking out. Just calm down, you HAVEN'T even started college yet. You have 3-4 years to get your pre-reqs out of the way. If you're this confused, talk to a dean or counselor to plan out your pre-dental courses. Like I said before you'll fulfill most of your requirements as a bio major anyway. And there's no way around not taking physics. There may be a couple schools that don't require it, but I'm assuming you're going to apply to more than one anyway. So just take it and get it over with.

For the first part of your question, I'm not sure, b/c my school works on the semester system. For most east coast schools, you need two semesters of physics (I and II, or equivalent in your school and corresponding labs). I guess it depends on how general physics is offered at your school. I took 4 semesters of physics and 4 physics lab. It's really interesting, as long as you don't let your self get overwhelmed with all the math. The concepts aren't too bad to grasp, esp if you take general physics.

So just relax and enjoy college and don't be a nervous mess.