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deschutes

deschutes

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I know yaah posted something similar in the past.

My question goes like this - Considering that I am an FMG, is it worth being everyone's bitch for a year for the opportunity to put "Co-Chief Resident" on my CV when applying for that Top Fellowship On The Coast?

Or am I much better off attempting to use that time to publish and present more, smooze up outside fellowship directors and work over the JHU Unknowns?

I can say quite honestly that I don't always turn up for AM conferences on time (my most productive hours are at night - if we had 6pm conferences with dinner provided, my attendance would be stellar - dinner food is so much more interesting than bagels, though bagels are of course better than nothing). So the thought of having to turn up earlier than anyone else for a whole year is giving me the shudders.
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I don't think it really matters, based on what people have said here. It is a lot of hassle that probably doesn't pay off. I guess it is something to add to your CV, but whether anyone is looking for it is doubtful.

Also depends on who picks the chief resident. Here the residents have the choice via anonymous ballot, which may or may not be the best way to do it.
 
deschutes said:
I know yaah posted something similar in the past.

My question goes like this - Considering that I am an FMG, is it worth being everyone's bitch for a year for the opportunity to put "Co-Chief Resident" on my CV when applying for that Top Fellowship On The Coast?

Or am I much better off attempting to use that time to publish and present more, smooze up outside fellowship directors and work over the JHU Unknowns?

I can say quite honestly that I don't always turn up for AM conferences on time (my most productive hours are at night - if we had 6pm conferences with dinner provided, my attendance would be stellar - dinner food is so much more interesting than bagels, though bagels are of course better than nothing). So the thought of having to turn up earlier than anyone else for a whole year is giving me the shudders.
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I always heard the smartest people get invited to be (co-) Chief Resident and then turn it down. They still can put that they were invited on their CV but not actually have to do all the work. Just what I've heard. Is this an option?
 
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j-weezy said:
I always heard the smartest people get invited to be (co-) Chief Resident and then turn it down. They still can put that they were invited on their CV but not actually have to do all the work. Just what I've heard. Is this an option?
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Like I said, not always true. At my program it's a popularity contest, so to speak. Faculty has no say (although I'm sure they could reject the choice if residents elected someone totally inappropriate). At programs where faculty pick the chief, it may be because of organization skills or communication skills, not necessarily intelligence.
 
I don't see how being chief in your 4th year will help you get a fellowship if it is a 5th year fellowship. By the time you are a 4th year and thus chief, you should have already gotten the 5th year fellowship. If you are planning to do 6 years :eek: , then it would probably help.
 
deschutes, i can honestly say that being the co-chief resident at your program will not in any way help you into a fellowship. don't do it. just my opinion (but it's right).
 
if you are considering doing it, wait them out and try to get as much political leverage as you can out of it.
 
At my program as I recently found out, residents select about three or four candidates, which then goes to faculty for selection of the final two.

Thanks so much for all your responses. You guys are waaaay cute.

Edit: LADoc00 - political leverage such as what? I can think of a couple of examples, but was curious to see what you had to add in your anonymity :)
 
While being a co-chief may not get you into a fellowship, it serves as an impressive point on your resume. It shows leadership, organizational skills, multitasking, problem solving, etc. If you are interested in being part of the system, shaping it, rather than just sitting on the sidelines, be a co-chief.
 
FrozenBob said:
While being a co-chief may not get you into a fellowship, it serves as an impressive point on your resume. It shows leadership, organizational skills, multitasking, problem solving, etc. If you are interested in being part of the system, shaping it, rather than just sitting on the sidelines, be a co-chief.
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Gunner.

Gunners require hazing.
 
You can also get all these things on your resume by being part of committees. Every residency program has committees. National (and regional) path organizations also have committees and that can be less work but more interesting and effective.
 
deschutes said:
Gunner.

Gunners require hazing.
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Don't do it. The pain and hassle associated with being chief (I haven't met a chief who actually enjoys their job...and this is from talking to chiefs or former chiefs from multiple programs) just isn't worth it. Sure you may get a few "thank you's" from the administration but it doesn't take you that far in life. If you're the type of person who needs to feel important or feels "honored" by being asked to be chief...fine, you can consider it. But don't expect too many rewards...it's like the law of diminishing returns.

Let's say you're chief...if you're just like any other chief in your program, you'll be easily forgotten. But if you go all out and camp out at the hospital, then you'll be a legend and will be remembered forever. You'll have faculty years later saying things like, "OMFG! Deschutes was the total pwnz0rz!!! He sucks at chief...he should have been more like deschutes." :rolleyes:
 
deschutes said:
My question goes like this - Considering that I am an FMG, is it worth being everyone's bitch for a year for the opportunity to put "Co-Chief Resident" on my CV when applying for that Top Fellowship On The Coast?
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The answer is no. Whether you're an FMG or not.
 
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I don't imagine that being chief is worth the grief. I will be chief in July and I have been loathing the job since it was hinted that I would be asked to do it. But politically, it would be suicide to turn it down in my department. The program director is strangely proud to name chiefs, but I have never met one who has felt proud to be one :eek: .
 
I think it all depends on the person. There are some people for whom it would be a bad choice. But for others, if you can budget your time well and stay organized it is probably fine. And it also could be a great learning experience in many ways. If you do it just to get it on your CV it's probably going to be a disappointing and unpleasant experience.
 
And perhaps it also depends on the staff in the department. Some departments are more willing to listen and respond appropriately to resident issues than others.

How much say the residents and/or chief resident has in the ROL for the Match, for instance, is I think a good indicator.
 
I see your point. I still think its up to the chief to speak up at such meetings if they want their opinions presented to the committee. Maybe then they would have more influence. Also, the overall process of selection of new residents should be revised/restructured.
 
I guess the appeal of being chief really depends on what the chief does and what kind of educational activities the chief takes part in. Maybe some chiefs just merely do administrative stuff. Frozenbob, you seem to advocate being chief...what kind of activities does the chief take part in at your particular program? Mostly administrative? Educational? Just making sure that the department runs smoothly? Training residents?
 
The chief does many things but it does seem to be largely administrative stuff and very little educational. The most time consuming is making sure that the department runs smoothly. However, me and my co-chief were able to make many significant changes to the program as a result of being active co-chiefs and strong advocates for all the residents.
 
We rotate chiefs at my program so that everyone takes their turn being the scut monkey. Everyone leaving this program gets to put that they were chief on their CV, no matter how lame a resident they may have been. Also, since the fourth years are busy "studying for boards", the chief position is generally filled by third year residents (but there was recently a second year chief). I personally have a problem with lower-level residents assigning duties to upper-levels. Does anyone find this odd, or is this just my military background coming through? So, I too find myself in the position where I want to turn down the chief position, but since it has not been done before, I don't know if there will be repercussions. I can imagine somebody slipping something into a LOR about being reluctant to assume responsibility, or some other similar cr*%. Does anyone have a similar setup at their program?
 
Gene_ said:
We rotate chiefs at my program so that everyone takes their turn being the scut monkey. Everyone leaving this program gets to put that they were chief on their CV, no matter how lame a resident they may have been.
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My med school path program did that. I thought it was double-dipping at the time, but it makes a great deal of sense now.

Gene_ said:
I personally have a problem with lower-level residents assigning duties to upper-levels. Does anyone find this odd, or is this just my military background coming through?
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I know what you mean. I can't say I've run into a situation like that yet, but it's probably more an issue of competence than position.

Gene_ said:
So, I too find myself in the position where I want to turn down the chief position, but since it has not been done before, I don't know if there will be repercussions. I can imagine somebody slipping something into a LOR about being reluctant to assume responsibility, or some other similar cr*%. Does anyone have a similar setup at their program?
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Putting on my next-level strategery cap for a moment, one way around it might be to have the LOR written before the chief resident selection process. Or to have the LOR written by people who won't take personally your decision to decline the position.

YMMV but depending on the clout of the individual writing your letter, would faculty really want to screw up a chance for fellowship or job for an otherwise competent (or even stellar) resident?

Mind you, I can see the argument for someone competent taking on a chief residency, rather than sitting around whining that their chief resident sucks. But residents are human and chances are the whining is going to happen anyway. Who is John Galt?
 
FrozenBob said:
The chief does many things but it does seem to be largely administrative stuff and very little educational. The most time consuming is making sure that the department runs smoothly. However, me and my co-chief were able to make many significant changes to the program as a result of being active co-chiefs and strong advocates for all the residents.
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Yeah, like I said before, I think most chiefs do mainly administrative stuff. Of course, they can go above and beyond the call of duty...and kudos to you for making an impact in your program. I just don't know if it's worth all the hassle or not. I think most chiefs don't display random acts of altruism and senseless acts of caring...and their jobs are just dull. I guess, like anything else, it depends on what the chief makes of the experience.
 
this has been an interesting discussion to read. i haven't chimed in yet because i can't really contribute anything intelligent at this point in my career, but i do have a question. as i understand it, being chief resident usually involves a pay raise of a few thousand for that year. do ya'll think that is fair compensation for the work involved? or to put it another way, is the extra work worth that amount of money?
 
mlw03 said:
this has been an interesting discussion to read. i haven't chimed in yet because i can't really contribute anything intelligent at this point in my career, but i do have a question. as i understand it, being chief resident usually involves a pay raise of a few thousand for that year. do ya'll think that is fair compensation for the work involved? or to put it another way, is the extra work worth that amount of money?
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Not sure about a few thousand a year, don't think it's that much, but perhaps. Amounts to $100 or so in your paycheck each much I would guess. In return for that you're basically on call every day to a certain extent. I have always thought it would be an interesting thing to do - at our program the chief gets (some) input into resident selection, goes to the faculty meetings, things like that. But there are a few objectionable tasks that are unavoidable as part of the job, like making the schedule or dealing with difficult residents or whatever.
 
djmd said:
Does it?
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Chiefs at our program make a little extra money, but it's not a huge amount. The bigger draw is the opportunity to spend time handling Dr. Mills' true consults.
 
It does. At our place I think it's like $3k split two ways. $1500 / 12 = $125/month, before tax. Innit awesome? :) Everyone should do this job!
 
deschutes said:
It does. At our place I think it's like $3k split two ways. $1500 / 12 = $125/month, before tax. Innit awesome? :) Everyone should do this job!
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i didn't realize the pay raise was so little. clearly anyone taking the job would not be doing solely for the little bit of extra money.
 
its definitely not done for the money - its very minimal, a token at best. there is scut work involved, thats why we split it into 2 chiefs. you do get opportunities to interact directly with all the staff, make changes that everyone things about but does not perform any actions.
 
i think there is not much difference between a chief and a chef although there is difference between a chief and a thief :laugh: :laugh:
 
deschutes said:
Or am I much better off attempting to use that time to publish and present more, smooze up outside fellowship directors and work over the JHU Unknowns?
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Ding ding ding.

IMO I got more exposure to fellowship directors and better job contacts through two meetings at the CAP resident forum than I would have trying to organize the call and/or lecture schedule for a year.

However, our chiefs do get a shiny plaque to hang in their offices.
 
I made a 100 copies of a friend's, then changed the name. It got me into residency!
 
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