Child Abuse Pediatrics = Forensic Pediatrics?

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pastorphysician

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I just came across the ABMS web yesterday and found that Child Abuse Pediatrics already accepted as one of recognized Pediatric Sub-specialties.

I just want to know what kind of patient you will deal on daily basis if you are practicing as one (Child-Abuse Peds)? Do you have to perform autopsies and testify on the court? or its more on dealing with healing abused child?

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My husband (Stitch, he's around these boards) is debating if he wants to do a peds forensics fellowship. He can answer better than I can, but he's at work so you have me instead. :p

No, you don't do autopsies. You will testify in court; roughly 1/3 of your time is spent in court. There is a lot of time spent determining "This is abuse" vs. "This isn't abuse", and according to my husband, most of the time it isn't abuse. It is not as much about healing abused children; social workers, peds psychiatrists, and therapists cover that front.

I'll point him towards this post when he gets home and let him fill in more details.
 
I just came across the ABMS web yesterday and found that Child Abuse Pediatrics already accepted as one of recognized Pediatric Sub-specialties.

I just want to know what kind of patient you will deal on daily basis if you are practicing as one (Child-Abuse Peds)? Do you have to perform autopsies and testify on the court? or its more on dealing with healing abused child?

As usual, my wife is mostly right. :)

Child abuse pediatrics is a valid sub specialty now, and a board exam will be offered starting in 2012 I think. In fact I currently work with one of the major researchers and question writers in the field. There are currently tons of positions opening up in child abuse. They need medical directors to run and organize child advocacy centers, and there aren't many who have formally trained.

Much of the job is investigational. Examining bruises or burns and being able to tell what could or could not have caused them. Getting a story from parents, and determining whether the history is consistent with the actual injuries. Can a kid fall from a bed and get a skull fracture? Probably. Can he end up with retinal hemorrhages from it? No. Your main role is saying 'this is abuse,' 'this is not abuse,' or 'I can't tell if this is abuse, but it's suspicious.'

How much time you spend in court depends on the area, the laws and on you. Due to testifying laws here, we have a little more court time than average. Outside of court we see a lot of different kinds of patients. We have an in patient consulting service that sees kids who have suspicious histories or injuries both on the wards and in the unit.

We also have an outpatient clinic where people are referred for follow up or investigation if the injuries don't bring them to the hospital. A typical case may be a child who tells mom that her uncle touched her and you then have to get a detailed history as to what the child said. It's a fair amount of 'well child' checks, but you have a lot more than just 15 minutes to do everything.

You have to get comfortable performing genital exams, most of which are normal (even in the case of sexual trauma/abuse exams can be normal). There are special forensic interviewer who interview the child about what happened, so that's not your job. You work closely with child protective services who may go to a parents house to investigate the living situation. You advise prosecuting attorneys and detectives and write up reports as to the cause of injury. Sometimes you work with defense attorneys as well.

You do not perform autopsies, that's for the pathologists, but you will often have to comment in court about the findings of the autopsy. In a similar fasion, you have to be able to comment on radiologic findings like fractures, subdural hematomas, things like that. They'll often ask you about medical diseases like osteogenesis imperfecta or metabolic diseases that the injuries could be attributed to, so part of your investigation is ruling out those kinds of things.

You also don't have psychological sessions with the abused children to help them heal. There are specialists for that, and you work with them.

Most research involves biomechanics or just statistical examination. How much force does it take to break a femur? How often do kids fall and injure themselves, and how far do they have to fall in order to be seriously injured? Things like that. Most child abuse pediatricians are involved with research like that, and most advocacy centers depend on grants for that kind of research to stay in the black. All are tied to a university for funding.

That's all I can think of. Does it help?
 
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wow, that's more than enough! I think i get a good insight of the field. Thank you very much!
 
Hello!
I'm really interested in becoming a neonatologists, however I've never thought of a forensic Ped. I read your post and Im interested in learning some more about this feild.
Here's a little about me. I'm graduating this summer with my aa in general studies. In the Fall I will start a university. So i will be entering as a junior. I was curious on how much schooling is involved?
I know 4 years of college and 4 years of medical school. Then would you become a pediatrician and specialize in forensic ped?
Also, whats the work week like for this field?

Thank you!
 
Hello!
I'm really interested in becoming a neonatologists, however I've never thought of a forensic Ped. I read your post and Im interested in learning some more about this feild.
Here's a little about me. I'm graduating this summer with my aa in general studies. In the Fall I will start a university. So i will be entering as a junior. I was curious on how much schooling is involved?
I know 4 years of college and 4 years of medical school. Then would you become a pediatrician and specialize in forensic ped?
Also, whats the work week like for this field?

Thank you!

You would do a pediatrics residency, followed by a 3-year pediatrics forensics fellowship. Note: all peds fellowships are 3 years, so this is the same amount of time it would take you to become a neonatologist.
Here's the basic timeline:
4 years college
4 years med school
3 years pediatric residency
3 years of fellowhip in peds forensics or neonatology or whatever specialty you want.

The work week would vary depending on where you end up. If you are lucky enough to work with a child abuse center, you could do a 9-5, 5 days a week schedule with little to no call. Many peds forensics split their time between working as a general pediatrician and doing forensics. From what Stitch has said, if you're working for a child abuse center you will be spending much of your time doing research/writing grants/looking for funding and all the fun that comes with research.
 
Wow that sounds pretty interesting! I have always wondered how I could help abused children as a doctor, but didnt know there was a specialty for it.
I like the idea of an 8-5 schedule, because i would want a large family :). The only thing that i heard from Stitch that I dont really like, is the work not being hands on with the patient.
 
Stitch, good info.... Hey OBP, I say we put it in a sticky somewhere.


On question though Stitch, do you know of any sub-fellowship (certificate) training that is offered in this field for general pediatricians, who may be called to testify on behalf of their patient or because their remote island community is lacking a Child Abuse specialist?
 
Stitch, good info.... Hey OBP, I say we put it in a sticky somewhere.


On question though Stitch, do you know of any sub-fellowship (certificate) training that is offered in this field for general pediatricians, who may be called to testify on behalf of their patient or because their remote island community is lacking a Child Abuse specialist?

This link might be helpful:

http://helfersociety.org/fellowships.html
 
Stitch, good info.... Hey OBP, I say we put it in a sticky somewhere.


On question though Stitch, do you know of any sub-fellowship (certificate) training that is offered in this field for general pediatricians, who may be called to testify on behalf of their patient or because their remote island community is lacking a Child Abuse specialist?

There's not really a sub fellowship certificate offered, especially since it won't be officially boarded for another couple years. Most people doing it weren't formally fellowship trained, however. They tended to have an interest and just started doing it, then developed the field around them.

The definition of 'expert witness' is basically just someone who knows more about a subject than the average joe. That means that any physician can be called upon to testify as an expert witness in court. A first year resident could technically get called into a child abuse case and asked to testify about physical findings. So if you're out somewhere far away on your own, you could definitely be asked to testify. Plus with obligate reporting laws you'll have to figure out some of the legal stuff/documentation on your own. In that case, I'd recommend contacting a child abuse specialist for some help or info on preparing.

Hopefully as more people go into the field, less burden will be placed on the general pediatricians to do that sort of thing.

Oh and the link Superoxide gave is great. The Helfer society is the main child abuse group in the U.S. Look up Helfer on Pub Med and you'll see he did some major research saying 'kids are abused.' Not too long ago, people didn't believe children were abused.
 
"You would do a pediatrics residency, followed by a 3-year pediatrics forensics fellowship"



A recent article in the AAP Resident Newsletter stated that while some existing fellowships are three yrs, the required length will be two. The one nearest me (CHKD) is two years currently. http://www.chkd.org/HealthPros/Fellowship/FMProgram.aspx
 
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"You would do a pediatrics residency, followed by a 3-year pediatrics forensics fellowship"



A recent article in the AAP Resident Newsletter stated that while some existing fellowships are three yrs, the required length will be two. The one nearest me (CHKD) is two years currently. http://www.chkd.org/HealthPros/Fellowship/FMProgram.aspx

Currently it is, but the 2008 fellowship will be the last one. From then on out, it will be a three year requirement for all child abuse fellowships (I'm at CHKD).
 
I hear that place is great. Sadly, despite living ~5 minutes away, I've not partaken of their fare (bringing my two evil-monkey children along usually requires fast food...love Mexican).
But I'd love to join in some time. Thanks.
 
Where do you go for Mexican? I've so far not been terribly impressed with the Mexican food in Norfolk and would love to hear some suggestions.

Thread hijacking FTW!!!
 
Good to hear about these kinds of programs -- they don't get enough attention. As someone about to start a forensic pathology fellowship, my impression has long been that formal forensic medicine (forensic evaluation of the living) training is dismally sparse, and that forensic nurses have somewhat stepped into the huge gap. The average clinician is taught to look for things that raise their index of suspicion, but most are just not great at evaluating injury timelines or causes, gathering & maintaining evidence appropriate for legal purposes, or handling themselves in court. Or simply want to avoid the forensic side of things for other reasons. It's a different approach than that taken in average day-to-day clinical medicine, and has its own traps and pitfalls. At any rate, it's very good to hear more about formally bridging the experience/training gap between typical clinical medicine and forensic pathology.
 
Good to hear about these kinds of programs -- they don't get enough attention. As someone about to start a forensic pathology fellowship, my impression has long been that formal forensic medicine (forensic evaluation of the living) training is dismally sparse, and that forensic nurses have somewhat stepped into the huge gap. The average clinician is taught to look for things that raise their index of suspicion, but most are just not great at evaluating injury timelines or causes, gathering & maintaining evidence appropriate for legal purposes, or handling themselves in court. Or simply want to avoid the forensic side of things for other reasons. It's a different approach than that taken in average day-to-day clinical medicine, and has its own traps and pitfalls. At any rate, it's very good to hear more about formally bridging the experience/training gap between typical clinical medicine and forensic pathology.

We work pretty routinely with one of the peds forensic pathologists, and she's phenominal. Is that a separate track from the one you're doing?
 
I know some of the forensic path folks down in Norfolk, and you're pretty fortunate to have what and who you have. Yes, I'm tracking into forensic pathology, but the majority of programs and offices that handle forensic pathology do little work with surviving victims/possible victims. And among forensic pathologists, most do not subspecialize in pediatrics (there is no specific "pediatric forensic pathology" subspecialization per se, though there is a "pediatric pathology" subspecialization, which is more broad -- some will do fellowships in both forensic path & pediatric path, others will do forensic pathology and take an interest in informally developing their expertise in pediatrics, or cardiac path, etc.).

It's just been my limited observation that on the whole, survivors get relatively little coverage in terms of expertise from a formally forensically trained/certified physician -- then again, most have their own voice, and forensic scientists/techs or forensic nurses usually fill the gaps. But I've often been concerned regarding what is missed and the questions that are not asked, much less answered, when a survivor is examined by someone with only forensic science OR medical expertise rather than someone formally trained in both. So I'm glad to hear more about programs out there that do address this.
 
More expertise in a given field generally means fewer frivolous comments and remarks, rather than more. In fact, a large component of forensic pathology is recognizing what is NOT significant -- if I review 10 cases of suspicious death and can confidently say none were homicides, I consider that a good thing -- I think pediatric forensic medicine is much the same, but focusing more on the living. That said, I think that both in general and in the situation you describe specifically, what is needed is more specialization in this field -- not less.

It wasn't that many years ago that there was a huge upswing in reported child "abuse" with a subsequent drop in physical punishment not only in school but also at home as neighbors and friends began reporting one another -- this seems to be tapering off, because of improved education I believe, not because people are no longer concerning themselves with it. And let's face it, determining what is an "imminent risk of serious harm" can be pretty subjective, especially when we include psychological harm in the mix. (What one group of people might let their children do on a daily basis might be unfathomable for another group of people, leaving the second group thinking the first is putting kids at physical risk, while the first group thinks the second is overprotective and putting their kids at psychological risk.) Well trained specialists should be best equipped to tell the difference between differing opinions in raising/caring for children, and harm or imminent harm that a child needs protection from.

Another problem that physicians face is that we too are held accountable for -not- reporting something that can seem frivolous, when months or even years later a child turns up injured or dead ("failure to act" from the exact same statute). Society demands that physicians (and teachers, incidentally) miss nothing, or risk their own careers and lives, and this can translate into over-reporting. I entirely agree that it's a very sad and frustrating, but very real problem for both parental-caregivers and physician-caregivers that lives can be destroyed when there was a complete lack of harmful intent... usually quite the opposite, as generally everyone is trying to look after those who can't look after themselves (children) as best they can.
 
Just wanted to throw my two cents in.....

I got to go to a child abuse clinic one day per week during my family med rotation last year. I don't think that it is something that I am interested in pursuing as a career after residency, but it was a really great experience. I would highly recommend doing a rotation in child abuse as a med student or residency if it is offered at your institution. I think that we sometimes overlook signs of abuse because it isn't pleasant to think about. My personal opinion is that everyone in primary care should have at least a little bit of training in recognizing signs of abuse and how to interview an abused patient.
 
.... I would highly recommend doing a rotation in child abuse as a med student or residency if it is offered at your institution. I think that we sometimes overlook signs of abuse because it isn't pleasant to think about. My personal opinion is that everyone in primary care should have at least a little bit of training in recognizing signs of abuse and how to interview an abused patient.

I can't disagree. I do think there was a time when excuses and explanations of abuse were quietly accepted, partly because people preferred to pretend it didn't exist, and partly because people didn't know what to do about it and found it easier to just accept an unlikely story. But in the face of the apparent trend in medicine to turf everything to someone else ("huh, I dunno much cardiac, I'll send him over to a cardiologist and they can figure it out" becomes "hey, that doesn't make sense, I'll just report it to child services and let them figure it out.."), I agree that physicians in general and primary care & pediatricians specifically need to have some level of training and comfort in dealing with these situations, because they -will- come up. Choosing to make no attempt to be prepared for that eventuality isn't going to make it easier to deal with when it arrives.
 
I know this is a pretty old forum, but I am interested in this as of lately. I was wondering what the typical salary would be in this field? Not expecting to get rich at all, but I do go to a private school and will have 300K in loans. Just wondering if this would be a negative financial decision to spend three more years specializing in this field.
 
I know this is a pretty old forum, but I am interested in this as of lately. I was wondering what the typical salary would be in this field? Not expecting to get rich at all, but I do go to a private school and will have 300K in loans. Just wondering if this would be a negative financial decision to spend three more years specializing in this field.

Sources I've found say roughly that of other peds subspecialists and roughly that of a general pediatrician.

Overall, the only financial net positive fellowships in pediatrics are cardiology, critical care, and neonatology. A couple, I think, break even. Child Abuse Peds is probably not one of them.
 
It's one of the lower paid specialties, making what an entry general pediatrician is making. There are salary increases that would go along with being a medical director or things like that, but it's still not much. You also have to have an institution that values the service and won't farm you out to do general pediatric ward or outpatient coverage. There are a lot of jobs open to child abuse pediatricians because there aren't a lot of people in the field. It's also incredibly interesting and multidisciplinary.
 
As usual, my wife is mostly right. :)

Child abuse pediatrics is a valid sub specialty now, and a board exam will be offered starting in 2012 I think. In fact I currently work with one of the major researchers and question writers in the field. There are currently tons of positions opening up in child abuse. They need medical directors to run and organize child advocacy centers, and there aren't many who have formally trained.

Much of the job is investigational. Examining bruises or burns and being able to tell what could or could not have caused them. Getting a story from parents, and determining whether the history is consistent with the actual injuries. Can a kid fall from a bed and get a skull fracture? Probably. Can he end up with retinal hemorrhages from it? No. Your main role is saying 'this is abuse,' 'this is not abuse,' or 'I can't tell if this is abuse, but it's suspicious.'

How much time you spend in court depends on the area, the laws and on you. Due to testifying laws here, we have a little more court time than average. Outside of court we see a lot of different kinds of patients. We have an in patient consulting service that sees kids who have suspicious histories or injuries both on the wards and in the unit.

We also have an outpatient clinic where people are referred for follow up or investigation if the injuries don't bring them to the hospital. A typical case may be a child who tells mom that her uncle touched her and you then have to get a detailed history as to what the child said. It's a fair amount of 'well child' checks, but you have a lot more than just 15 minutes to do everything.

You have to get comfortable performing genital exams, most of which are normal (even in the case of sexual trauma/abuse exams can be normal). There are special forensic interviewer who interview the child about what happened, so that's not your job. You work closely with child protective services who may go to a parents house to investigate the living situation. You advise prosecuting attorneys and detectives and write up reports as to the cause of injury. Sometimes you work with defense attorneys as well.

You do not perform autopsies, that's for the pathologists, but you will often have to comment in court about the findings of the autopsy. In a similar fasion, you have to be able to comment on radiologic findings like fractures, subdural hematomas, things like that. They'll often ask you about medical diseases like osteogenesis imperfecta or metabolic diseases that the injuries could be attributed to, so part of your investigation is ruling out those kinds of things.

You also don't have psychological sessions with the abused children to help them heal. There are specialists for that, and you work with them.

Most research involves biomechanics or just statistical examination. How much force does it take to break a femur? How often do kids fall and injure themselves, and how far do they have to fall in order to be seriously injured? Things like that. Most child abuse pediatricians are involved with research like that, and most advocacy centers depend on grants for that kind of research to stay in the black. All are tied to a university for funding.

That's all I can think of. Does it help?


Hello, I am going to be in the need to hire a forensic pediatric soon for a case, can you let me know what is the best process to choose one,
what to ask? does it depend on the type of case? it is for defense attorney ,
 
Hello, I am going to be in the need to hire a forensic pediatric soon for a case, can you let me know what is the best process to choose one,
what to ask? does it depend on the type of case? it is for defense attorney ,

This isn't really the appropriate place to find or evaluate a child abuse pediatrician. I would recommend using whatever professional resources are available to you or talking to your local/nearest pediatric center.
 
This isn't really the appropriate place to find or evaluate a child abuse pediatrician. I would recommend using whatever professional resources are available to you or talking to your local/nearest pediatric center.
Ok, Thanks, I was just not sure as to how make I am hiring the right one, one that has enough credibility for the court to accept
 
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