Chiro pulling a 180 and in need of your thoughts... long!

[Backman180]

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Whats up all... been reading some of the threads here. Im currently a Chiropractor looking to make a career change and looking to go to optometry school. Ive been in contact with some of the schools and it appears it will be nearly impossible for me to start 07 (no OATs and need college math prereqs) so probably looking to start 08. I thought I would post and get some feedback.

I knew about 1/2 way through the chiro program that I had made a mistake... but was encouraged by many voices... mostly wise... to finish out and get the degree. I did and I have been in the field for 3 years. I have worked in a clinical environment for 2+ years and took a 150 hour post-doc course in electrodiagnostics. Im currently working with a dx company performing needle emg/ncv. I am horribly disenchanted with the chiro profession (have been since school). It has its place... but there is a lot of bullarky and I just dont see myself as a Chiro my whole life. I am a good doc... and want to be a part of a profession that is defined by good docs rather than an exception to the majority (as I see it).

Med school was my initial plan since graduating... but the time commitment is just too much and I dont want to even approach being a slave to my career at the expense of family, social life, hobbies etc. I have some family in Optometry and some recent exposure to the field has peaked my interest but i want to do due diligence and make sure I am not making another choice I will regret.

So... one criticism (of many) of chiro school was that they failed to prepare adequately for the business end of the profession. Chiros are predominantly self-employed as are optometrists if my impression is correct. Im hoping that OD school recognizes that dynamic and adequately teaches their students about third party payers and the many other aspects of business ownership. Do you who are in the field or in school feel they prepare adequately in this area

I would also like to get a feel for what the profession is like... financially. Its not all about the money at all... but there are so many new chiros drowning because they just cant financially make ends meet. Is this a reality for OD's. What is the market place like. Im doing research but would value input

Im not worried about getting in or being successful in school. Ive done it and know I can do it no prob. Chiro school is demanding (i went to one of the good ones) and I have a solid base of A&P, pathology, diagnosis etc and a large skill set and relative wealth of clinical experience compared to most trad students. I just want to do all I can to make sure this is the right move. I am talking to OD's, getting involved in some volunteer capacities etc to immerse myself in the field a little bit. Any suggestions... words of encouragement/discouragement

I cant help but see the parallels in the comments posted in these forums compared to those in comparable chiro forums. The whole MD/OD bickering, "not real doctors" nonsense etc etc. All I want is to be a member of a profession where I am adequately trained to be a good doctor, provide a valuable service that I dont have to convince people they need (unlike so much of chiro), and feel content with and proud of what I am doing. Is it fair to say that the optometry profession is stable, comfortable in its own skin, and looking toward a bright future? I know there are third party payer issues, ego conflicts etc in all professions like this... but are these signs of discontent or instability like I percieve them to be in Chiro?

One more thing... im looking to commission with the army and go to OD school on scholarship (im already burried with chiro debt). Anyone going/gone this route? Any thoughts? I like the idea of serving my US and it seems to serve me well also in this respect.

Thanks for bearing with my uncoordinated rambling! Im still developing my thoughts and position. Your thoughts are valuable to me! I find it funny but so expected that there is no forum for Chiro's... especially with all the talk about who is a "doctor". Anyway... thanks ahead of time

 

[Oogilily]

Although I am not an Optometry student yet (entering in 2008) from what I have read on the forum myself, it sounds like most graduates don't feel prepared for the business side of it. It's one thing I'm a little worried about. I do have some family that could help me out with business things. As for the army, my current eye doctor said if he could do it again he would have joined the army to pay for school. He said even if you get shipped off to war (like Iraq right now) you wouldn't be in the front lines as an Optometrist 🙂. So that's what I have heard about the army thing. But, since I am not currently a student, somebody else could probably help you better!

 

[docvisionX]

Check your PM's.

 

[jenrodgers32]

Backman,

I am a 2004 grad and have been working as an optometrist since graduation...unhappily. I would caution you to seriously think before you jump ship. You ask if they prepare you in school for the business side...no. My school did a "seminar" for I believe 3 months our 3rd year which was completely inadequate. As with a lot of professions I learned more the first year out of school then I did in school. That aside the thing with optometry is that if you have connections so you have the right practice to walk into after graduation, it can be a great profession. However, if you don't then you are going to be faced with the what 90% of grads are faced with..corporate because they are the readily available jobs (lens crafters, ect.) Besides making you feel like less of a doctor because you are working in a mall or store, in most states they are independent contractor jobs. You get paid per patient, have no benefits/ vacation, if you want time off you have to find someone to cover you and pay them for it, and a lot of the time you have to do your own billing. Not to mention late hours. Opening a practice is becoming increasingly more difficult with the rising cost of technology and lowering insurance reimbursement. Also it is a fair estimate to say it takes at least 3 years to get a practice off the ground and most docs continue to work corporate. But,the only way to make a very good living is to own your practice which takes a lot of money and a lot of risk. As for the bullarky..sad to say it is here too. Optometry is always at war with opthalmology. You will be looked at by many as not a "real doctor" again and be prepared for your patients to ask you, "This is a 2 year program, right?" As far as day to day work it gets mundane and the old better as one or two joke really is a reality. You do have autonomy to treat some disease, but anything beyond the basics most refer out to opthalmolog. There are a few gung ho ODs out there who will try to treat anything but if you are trying to treat a corneal ulcer and live in a city surrounded by specialists (D.O.s/M.D.s) and that person loses sight and sues, you better believe the first question you are going to get on the stand is "why didn't you refer them out?" If you say you had the knowledge to treat they will pull an expert witness (opthalmologist) on the stand who will bury you in knowledge because they flat out know more disease then O.D.s do. My husband is a lawyer and just told me about a case very similar to this one. In any rate, I don't mean to discourage, just go into it with your eyes open and I would suggest having a job lined up beforehand because believe me the job offers will not come pouring in after graduation..unless you want to be at walmart. Good luck!

 

[Backman180]

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the heads up. I dont want to come out of OD school and feel like I did when i came out of DC school. I have been considering a number of options. I am going to be talking with my cousin and see what his thoughts are. I was at a medical trade show for work and talked at length with an Major in the army medical service corps. He was HIGHLY recommending DO school. Im considering the option... just seems like such an incredible mountain to climb. I could face 4 years of school and 4 years of active duty... but 4 years of school, 4-6 years of residency and 8-10 years of active just seems like sooo much. Ill be 52 before I see a civilian career. I guess I could just do the military full time. Ugh... so many decisions. I just dont think I want to do chiro long term. I feel like I want something where I serve in a more important capacity. Maybe OD school isnt it. I wish I could feel confident about my decisions like I used to... prior to DC school. Im just so unsure of the direction I should go in. Well... again... thanks for your thoughts. Keep them coming!

 

[luckyfool]

Nothing in life comes easy. You've gotta work for it. Opening a new practice is hard for any medical profession..be it MD or DO. Maybe harder for ODs but it's definitely doable. Open a group practice is always easier and is less risky than solo. First make sure optometry is really what you want to do, otherwise you will regret it in the long run questioning yourself why not go for MD/DO. Do some research, then make your decisions.

 

[jenrodgers32]

If you have it in you, I say go for DO school! My father and my brother are both DO's radiologists specifically and both have done so well and been so satisfied with their careers. If I could do it over again, that is the route I would take. However, I had my mom who steered me into optom b/c she thought it would be a nice part time career for a woman😱 Luckily I did find a wonderful husband who does well so I can work part time. I will tell you this, optometry school is not easy, going through I was very surprised at how difficult it is. You basically have to know a lot of what an opthalmologist knows but you earn 1/10th the pay and 1/10th the respect. Osteopathic school is some extra years but if you are going to start another career you better make sure it is something you are going to get the satisfaction you want when you are finished regardless of how long the road is to get there. Also with your background you already know so much anatomy and not to mention the skills to get through grad school. On the other side I will say the happiest I was practicing optometry was when I did a rotation in the air force. There you have so much autonomy, you get to practice full scope and have a network of docs to support you. If you go military, it is not a bad thing b/c you will still be young enough to have a civilian career but you will also have your retirement benefits from the military. Lastly, as for opening a practice, unless you have an established practice in optometry it is very hard to open in a group. It takes so much time to build up a patient base for one doc, let alone two. I hope this helps and I wish you all the best with your decision.

 

[luckyfool]

If you have it in you, I say go for DO school! My father and my brother are both DO's radiologists specifically and both have done so well and been so satisfied with their careers. If I could do it over again, that is the route I would take. However, I had my mom who steered me into optom b/c she thought it would be a nice part time career for a woman😱 Luckily I did find a wonderful husband who does well so I can work part time. I will tell you this, optometry school is not easy, going through I was very surprised at how difficult it is. You basically have to know a lot of what an opthalmologist knows but you earn 1/10th the pay and 1/10th the respect. Osteopathic school is some extra years but if you are going to start another career you better make sure it is something you are going to get the satisfaction you want when you are finished regardless of how long the road is to get there. Also with your background you already know so much anatomy and not to mention the skills to get through grad school. On the other side I will say the happiest I was practicing optometry was when I did a rotation in the air force. There you have so much autonomy, you get to practice full scope and have a network of docs to support you. If you go military, it is not a bad thing b/c you will still be young enough to have a civilian career but you will also have your retirement benefits from the military. Lastly, as for opening a practice, unless you have an established practice in optometry it is very hard to open in a group. It takes so much time to build up a patient base for one doc, let alone two. I hope this helps and I wish you all the best with your decision.

I believe jen was trying to tell you that most optometrists aren't regarded as highly as MDs or DOs. But that is expected when you have 4 years of post-grad education as opposed to MD/DO's 4yrs post-grad + 4 or more years of residency/surgical rotations. Most of the time, respect is earned. If you present yourself as inferior, apologetic, and needy you will be treated as such. If you present yourself in an assertive, confident manner you will be treated as an equal.

Optometrists make about half of what OMDs make. If you think about it, OMDs work twice as much and long as optometrists. At the end of the day, they make about the same thing.

 

[jenrodgers32]

In reponse to Luckys comments, I think he needs a bit more life experience to be able to make such remarks. It is easy to have grand notions when you are in school, but sadly as the intiator of this thread knows, life changes once you are out in the real world. I am a good optometrist and so are the docotors I work with. I have never been whiny or presented myself as an inferior; I am confident in what I do. The fact of the matter is the corporate world has done much to damage our profession and the public perception of such. Like I said before, optometry is not a bad profession if you find the right practice for yourself, but that is hard to do. The bottom line is we are not equals of MDs/DOs, no matter how you equate it with years of training in school vs being out and working. For those extra 4 years in residency (paid though I know it is very meager) the salaries between our fields and public notion is very different. The opthalmologist I work with who is very OD friendly (which is not the most common thing) agrees with this. Hope you have a good job lined up after graduation.

 

[luckyfool]

jen please enlighten us a little bit about your practice?

I work in NYC for an optometrist/OMD joint practice, and have worked for 5 other optometrists in the manhattan area, I just don't see the optometric situation as bad as you claimed.

 

[docvisionX]

jen please enlighten us a little bit about your practice?

I work in NYC for an optometrist/OMD joint practice, and have worked for 5 other optometrists in the manhattan area, I just don't see the optometric situation as bad as you claimed.

Yes, please do! And then we will all take a moment to bow at the feet of the all mighty "MD", for the "MD" knows everything about anything. What a JOKE!!

 

[Backman180]

First... thank you all for your thoughts and PM's.

After more research and talking to a number of people including a major in the army med corp and some other folks at a big medical trade show this week... I am most likely going to set my sites again on MD/DO school. It is a tough decision.. but I seem to always come back to that. Going to start moving in that direction and hope to start 2008.

I see another thread (this one) that becomes an OD vrs DO/MD thread. I hate all that because there are good docs and idiot docs on both sides. My ego is not what hurts me in a profession other than MD/DO... but the earning capacity, relatively small number of options within the profession and limited scope of practice all make me think shooting for MD is the way to go. There are soo many options for MD's outside of a private practice setting... options that are not available to most other docs. Teaching, pharma company positions, military promotion, hospitals, medical missions etc are avenues in addition to private practice that are available to MD/DO and limited in other professions. I was reading through an injection technique book for sports med and orthopedics and that is exactly the kind of stuff I want to do. I could do eyes... but I really want to do orthopedics... maybe ortho surgery. Eyes were a direction I had not really considered till recently and it seemed like a good option... but so many things have popped up that make me question whether it is the right course.

Thanks again all... Ill keep floating the forums. I did some reading on the premed sites... those cats study their fool heads off for the MCAT. Im dreading that test!

 

[FamilyMD]

Optometrists make about half of what OMDs make. If you think about it, OMDs work twice as much and long as optometrists. At the end of the day, they make about the same thing.

Careful here, one of my neighbors is a "cataract cowboy" and pulls in over 1 mill net, I shudder to think what the lasix kings are pulling in. According to the latest Medical Economics salary survey, the average eye MD is doing about $300k http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=379594
Truth be told opthal is one of the easier (read cushier) med field, seriously doubt they're working twice as hard as an OD.

 

[luckyfool]

Careful here, one of my neighbors is a "cataract cowboy" and pulls in over 1 mill net, I shudder to think what the lasix kings are pulling in. According to the latest Medical Economics salary survey, the average eye MD is doing about $300k http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=379594
Truth be told opthal is one of the easier (read cushier) med field, seriously doubt they're working twice as hard as an OD.

I'm not saying OMDs dont make a lot. i concur that they make a heap load of money. Im just saying the amount of stress and time put into a practice is a lot -- because I work for one fulltime and know firsthand how stressful it is. The OMD at my place works more than 60 hrs per week, and most MDs do and sometimes exceeds 60 hr/week. If you are willing to sacrifice that little amont of time left in your day to make that extra money, be my guess. However, some of us actually thinks life is more than just money. Our families, friends and hobbies deserve some of our time too.

 

[luckyfool]

Careful here, one of my neighbors is a "cataract cowboy" and pulls in over 1 mill net, I shudder to think what the lasix kings are pulling in. According to the latest Medical Economics salary survey, the average eye MD is doing about $300k http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=379594
Truth be told opthal is one of the easier (read cushier) med field, seriously doubt they're working twice as hard as an OD.

I'm not saying OMDs dont make a lot. i concur that they make a heap load of money. Im just saying the amount of stress and time put into a practice is a lot -- because I work for one fulltime and know firsthand how stressful it is. The OMD at my place works more than 60 hrs per week, and most MDs do and sometimes exceeds 60 hr/week. If you are willing to sacrifice that little amont of time left in your day to make that extra money, be my guess. However, some of us actually thinks life is more than just money. Our families, friends and hobbies deserve some of our time too.

 

[jenrodgers32]

Lucky, I am glad you are in a practice setting you enjoy and are happy in your profession. I am just tyring to give my prospective and saddly the prospective of my closest few friends who are ODs. It is something I would have had upfront and everyone's life experiences are different. As for no optometric setting being that bad, I think there are probably a few docs at Wal-mart or Sams club that would disagree. As for my setting, it is very nice. I work with two OMDs and another OD. As for the hours, neither of the OMDs I work with work past 50hrs/week and some weeks they only work 30-40. It depends on patient load/surgery schdl. ect. I KNOW if they work harder then me, it is not by much. Saddly though what they pull salary wise, it much greater. For the extra time in residency they spend, doesn't seem like that great of a trade off. This is one of the reasons the residency is so competitive is because of the lifestyle opthalmolgy affords you. One of my friends is a 1st yr and that is one of the main reasons he picked the specialty, so he could have a life outside of work, just like ODs do. You cannot put OMDs with the same workloads as say cardiology, orthopedics and gen surgery unless the OMDs himself or herself decides to make it that way. As for knowledge base, sad to say when it comes to knowledge about diesease, the "almighty" OMD knows more. That is why they go through a RESIDENCY. Just like we know more about refractions/binocular vision/contact lenses ect. that is why we go to OPTOMETRY school. I am not putting OMDs on a god platform, I just respect them for what they know, as the OMDs I work with respect me for what I know.
Chiro- Congrats on your decision and good luck, I think that is wonderful. To help you a little on the DO/MD thing, both my brother and father are DOs (radiologists). In my dad's time, he did see the difference in residencies and such, but it was mostly all malarchy. With my brother, he said it really was never an issue. In fact both his residency and fellowship were MD programs. If you do go into ortho, I hope you are ready to put in those long hours. A good friend of mine is a 4th yr and lives and breathes medicine. He is ALWAYS working. But, that is his personalitly so although he is tired a lot, he is happy. Again, good luck!

 

[jenrodgers32]

Sorry Lucky, I am a bit confused, in your post you said this,

"I work in NYC for an optometrist/OMD joint practice, and have worked for 5 other optometrists in the manhattan area, I just don't see the optometric situation as bad as you claimed."

But on another thread you asked if any schools offer job placement? Plus you are 22, a little young to be a practicing OD. Are you working with these ODs in an externship?

 

[lesset01]

i think he is an optometry student working in an office for experience....

backman, i don't have a lot of life experience to offer you, but from what I am reading, I think that everyone has a different point of view on the optometry profession (and probably any profession for that matter). Why don't you try asking a local OD if you could follow him or her around for a day or two so that you can see first hand what it is like? Same with a DO? Even if you are older than the average student that would be job shadowing, I think that it would help you out a lot in your decision. For every person that says that they dislike their career in optometry, I'm sure there is someone else that loves it. I'll bet that there is someone out there that just loves being a chiro and can't imagine being anything else. Deciding what career path you want to take is a very important and nervewracking experience, and its probably that much worse if you are doing it a second time.

I guess what i'm trying to say is don't let a couple of people that dislike optometry make up your mind against it, and likewise, don't let a couple of people that love optometry make up your mind for it. Good luck!

 

[luckyfool]

yes i'm working for experience and money. 🙂

beckman, DO is certainly not a bad career path. There are some distinguished DOs out there and I'm sure you'd make a good doc once you make it there. Just know that DOs are not very popular in cities. Most DOs practice in small towns and hospitals where MDs are not readily available. Yes you will be working long hours as a DO too, plus your decision to do orthopedics... man good luck. lol

Like the previous post said, explore thoroughly.

 

[jenrodgers32]

Lucky where are you getting this info on DOs?? Like I said before I come from a family of DOs and know a good many of them and NONE of them have had problems finding a job in the citiy. My brother did an MD radiology residency in Seattle and works in Columbus. My father worked in Cleveland. Look on Cleveland Clinic's website, you will find DOs. Granted there are more MDs generally because there are a greater number of practicing MDs than DOs. This is not the 1950s. If you posted this over in the medicine forum, I'm sure you would get some lovely responses. As for your job, it is very good you are working to gain experience and I hope your opinion of your chosen profession holds up after you have been out in the field a few years, best of luck and try to stay out of walmat 😀

 

[FamilyMD]

I'm not saying OMDs dont make a lot. i concur that they make a heap load of money. Im just saying the amount of stress and time put into a practice is a lot -- because I work for one fulltime and know firsthand how stressful it is. The OMD at my place works more than 60 hrs per week, and most MDs do and sometimes exceeds 60 hr/week. If you are willing to sacrifice that little amont of time left in your day to make that extra money, be my guess. However, some of us actually thinks life is more than just money. Our families, friends and hobbies deserve some of our time too.

Sigh....another internet poster posting falsehoods as truths. Everybody knows opthal is one of the cushiest lifestyles. You sound like you are just rationalizing (sour grapes) on why you are an OD. Don't take my word for it, click here. Average opthal works 45hrs/wk, and I know my neighbor is probably more like 35-40. http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=382220
Before people jump all over me cause their feelings are hurt, reread fool's post, he's basically saying being an MD means choosing money over your love ones. What a bunch of baloney. I work 35 hrs/wk, never more.

 

[FoughtFyr]

yes i'm working for experience and money. 🙂

beckman, DO is certainly not a bad career path. There are some distinguished DOs out there and I'm sure you'd make a good doc once you make it there. Just know that DOs are not very popular in cities. Most DOs practice in small towns and hospitals where MDs are not readily available. Yes you will be working long hours as a DO too, plus your decision to do orthopedics... man good luck. lol

Like the previous post said, explore thoroughly.

Hmm, well, let's see. I'm a senior resident at the Mayo Clinic. Now I will grant you that Rochester is not a big city, but we have LOTS of DOs in the various residencies (including Ortho - one of our Ortho chiefs is a DO) within the institution. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are very, very few, if any, places left where a significant "anti-DO" bias exists anymore.

That said, to the OP, cast your net wide. As there really is no more "anti-DO" bias around anymore, the training differences between MDs and DOs is minimal. I would encourage you to apply to both. Both are competitive for entrance and there is really no need to limit your chances by applying solely to one or the other out of some sense that a significant difference exists where it does not...

- H

 

[NylonNoMore]

I never understood how someone even partially interested in the medical field would choose chiro;chiro is the field entered by all of the "has been" med school (MD,DO,OD,DVM) applicants who grasping on to the one last resort that will alow he or she to acknowledge themself as "Dr". Sorry to be harsh, but that is my experience with those who I personally know to be "Doctors of Chiropractic".

 

[r_salis]

I never understood how someone even partially interested in the medical field would choose chiro;chiro is the field entered by all of the "has been" med school (MD,DO,OD,DVM) applicants who grasping on to the one last resort that will alow he or she to acknowledge themself as "Dr". Sorry to be harsh, but that is my experience with those who I personally know to be "Doctors of Chiropractic".

Nice to see that a brand-new member (a "Pre-Health (Field Undecided)" one, at that) is able to make such a positive contibution to SDN with his very first post. 🙄

 

[FoughtFyr]

Nice to see that a brand-new member (a "Pre-Health (Field Undecided)" one, at that) is able to make such a positive contibution to SDN with his very first post. 🙄

I'm no fan of chiropractic, but ad hominium attacks have no place here.

- H

 

[NylonNoMore]

Sir,
I apologize for upsetting you, but you should respect my opinion along with the thousands of others on this site...hmmm....wonder why "pre-chiro" is not a thread on Student Doctor? Has there ever been an MD vs DC thread here?? My two cents...

 

[FoughtFyr]

Sir,
I apologize for upsetting you, but you should respect my opinion along with the thousands of others on this site...hmmm....wonder why "pre-chiro" is not a thread on Student Doctor? Has there ever been an MD vs DC thread here?? My two cents...

Actually, there have been several "MD vs DC" threads, as well as several "pro-DC" threads, and even some threads debating the lack of a "pre-chiro/chiro" forum here. And I am usually one of the more adamant members against chiropractic or it's inclusion here. Look at many of my previous posts if you would like. But the idea of the forum is a place for intelligent, educated discussion. If you posted a commentary on the default rates of student loan debt between ODs and DCs, that would be fine. If you wanted to demonstrate the educational differences, the lack of standardization within chiropractic, or even the occasionally questionable marketing techniques they employ - fine. But to post only to say "neener, neener, I hate chiropractors" is neither useful nor productive. Additionally, the OP is leaving chiropractic, not exactly an endorsement, so "piling on" in a less than polite manner is really not called for...

- H

 

[luckyfool]

Hmm, well, let's see. I'm a senior resident at the Mayo Clinic. Now I will grant you that Rochester is not a big city, but we have LOTS of DOs in the various residencies (including Ortho - one of our Ortho chiefs is a DO) within the institution. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are very, very few, if any, places left where a significant "anti-DO" bias exists anymore.

That said, to the OP, cast your net wide. As there really is no more "anti-DO" bias around anymore, the training differences between MDs and DOs is minimal. I would encourage you to apply to both. Both are competitive for entrance and there is really no need to limit your chances by applying solely to one or the other out of some sense that a significant difference exists where it does not...

- H

call me a dreamer, but the ophthalmologist practice i'm working for right now sees 60 patients per day on average. 60x5 = 300 patients per week compare to that 120 per week from the link. There's only 1 MD and 2 associates at the practice. Other similar practices in my area also sees this number of patients. I guess a big city like NYC cant really compare to small cities and towns where patient base is significantly less.

and familyMD, i was not trying to imply that going for MD entails choosing money over family, it's simply choosing a career that one has a passion for, and somehow along the way 'other' things are being neglected without your knowledge.

additionally, I'm not trying to bash MD/DOs because I can't become one. I took the MCAT and have the right score for MD schools and DO schools. Several DO schools offered me seat. But i chose optometry because of several personal reasons, which i will not go into.

FoughtFyr, spare me. Rochester is not a big city. population 219,773 as of 2006. compare that to NYC? pop: 8,143,197. Anything you say about mayo would be irrelevant to my original post. And I did not say anything about MD/DO's training qualifications. You just pull that $hit out of your ass. I just said the job competition for MDs and DOs is a landslide victory for MDs in big cities.

Try NYU medical center's physician directory, http://www.nyumc.org/findadoc/resul...rd=&gender=&specdisplay=&nr_url=noresult.html
there's only 13 DOs in a list of 1400+ physicians. Make your own conclusions. thank you.

 

[FoughtFyr]

FoughtFyr, spare me. Rochester is not a big city. population 219,773 as of 2006. compare that to NYC? pop: 8,143,197. Anything you say about mayo would be irrelevant to my original post. And I did not say anything about MD/DO's training qualifications. You just pull that $hit out of your ass. I just said the job competition for MDs and DOs is a landslide victory for MDs in big cities.

Try NYU medical center's physician directory, http://www.nyumc.org/findadoc/resul...rd=&gender=&specdisplay=&nr_url=noresult.html
there's only 13 DOs in a list of 1400+ physicians. Make your own conclusions. thank you.

Wow. You are REALLY misguided. It's o.k., you will learn better when you are in medical school. Best of luck.

- H, MD, MPH

 

[jesse14]

Wow. You are REALLY misguided. It's o.k., you will learn better when you are in medical school. Best of luck.

- H, MD, MPH

Foughtfyr,
Not to bud in our anything, but it sounds as if you feel like anyone who is not an MD/DO or in med schoo,l and who's points differ from yours is disalussioned. Basically, from this thread and a few others i recall reading, you seem to take the stance that Medical school has a way of changing peoples perceptions, ways of thinking, or logic that other forms of education do not. Now, this is only my perception and is by no means an accusation. It's just an observations is all.

And for that chiro bashing peron.. Just because the DC's you've come into contact with are MD/DO wanna be's, doesn't mean ALL DC's share that disposition. In fact, the DC's that i've come into contact with had zero intention on attending medical school. They had nothing against it, but simply agreed more with chiropractics form of healthcare. Please, as foughtfyr would say, the plural of anecdote is not fact. I realize i used some of my own anecdotal evidence to refute your assertion but that was just to make a point.
Take care

 

[FoughtFyr]

Foughtfyr,
Not to bud in our anything, but it sounds as if you feel like anyone who is not an MD/DO or in med schoo,l and who's points differ from yours is disalussioned. Basically, from this thread and a few others i recall reading, you seem to take the stance that Medical school has a way of changing peoples perceptions, ways of thinking, or logic that other forms of education do not. Now, this is only my perception and is by no means an accusation. It's just an observations is all.

Actually, you are right and wrong. I very much believe that medical training (medical school and residency) has a way of changing people's perceptions. In fact, I think that it fundamentally changes people. Anecdotally speaking, I know of no one who was the same person after medical training that they were before. But I do not believe this is exclusive to medical school. There are other events similar in their impact (e.g., wartime military service) but I do believe that the hours, emotional toll, and academic load makes medical training fairly unique in higher education.

Happy Holidays,

- H

 

[jesse14]

Actually, you are right and wrong. I very much believe that medical training (medical school and residency) has a way of changing people's perceptions. In fact, I think that it fundamentally changes people. Anecdotally speaking, I know of no one who was the same person after medical training that they were before. But I do not believe this is exclusive to medical school. There are other events similar in their impact (e.g., wartime military service) but I do believe that the hours, emotional toll, and academic load makes medical training fairly unique in higher education.

Happy Holidays,

- H

With this in mind, it doesn't seem fair to think "less" of anyones points on the basis of the fact they didn't attend Medical School. Basically, just because a OD, DC, DPM etc didn't go through med school, it doesn't mean they don't understand just as much as you regarding socital implications (RE: # of pts an Opthomologist sees in Rochester vs NYC). How can going through medical school make someone more aware of triva such as that? I kinda think you have a pompus outlook if you feel just b/c you're an MD, you intuitively know more than others an any given subject (not saying that's the case). I by no means am trying to downplay the rigour associated with medical training, nor am i saying you're not knowledgeable (quite the opposite in fact)... just don't undermine others thoughts simply b/c they don't have the MD beside their name.
Good day

 

[FoughtFyr]

Basically, just because a OD, DC, DPM etc didn't go through med school, it doesn't mean they don't understand just as much as you regarding socital implications (RE: # of pts an Opthomologist sees in Rochester vs NYC). How can going through medical school make someone more aware of triva such as that? I kinda think you have a pompus outlook if you feel just b/c you're an MD, you intuitively know more than others an any given subject (not saying that's the case).

Re-read the thread Jesse. Once again you read quickly and chastise quicker. The question I was responding to was the bias (or lack thereof) against DOs (Doctors of Osteopathy). On the issue of biases within the medical profession against a specific type of provider - a type that I work side-by-side with daily in residency - I think I am fairly qualified. I'm sorry you disagree. In my experience, many people who know little of DOs prior to entering medical school are quite surprised to learn that they have all of the rights and privileges as MDs do in the hospital. They enter the same residencies and compete for the same jobs after residency - and do so without some "label" around their neck. If the top residency programs in the country accept DOs for training, it only logically follows that they compete for the best jobs after residency. And if an MD somehow gets through medical school with a continued "anti-DO" bias, it is always fun to see them assigned to a DO senior resident. Good times.

I would agree, I know nothing about the # of pts an Opthomologist sees in Rochester vs NYC, nor have I ever claimed to.

Jesse, I really hope that as your education goes on you learn how to read critically.

Happy Holidays!

- H

 

[luckyfool]

Re-read the thread Jesse. Once again you read quickly and chastise quicker. The question I was responding to was the bias (or lack thereof) against DOs (Doctors of Osteopathy). On the issue of biases within the medical profession against a specific type of provider - a type that I work side-by-side with daily in residency - I think I am fairly qualified. I'm sorry you disagree. In my experience, many people who know little of DOs prior to entering medical school are quite surprised to learn that they have all of the rights and privileges as MDs do in the hospital. They enter the same residencies and compete for the same jobs after residency - and do so without some "label" around their neck. If the top residency programs in the country accept DOs for training, it only logically follows that they compete for the best jobs after residency. And if an MD somehow gets through medical school with a continued "anti-DO" bias, it is always fun to see them assigned to a DO senior resident. Good times.

I would agree, I know nothing about the # of pts an Opthomologist sees in Rochester vs NYC, nor have I ever claimed to.

Jesse, I really hope that as your education goes on you learn how to read critically.

Happy Holidays!

- H

Before you jump to conclusions about other people's critical reading abilities, you really should evaluate about your own. There's no post in this thread that has said anything about differences/similarities on MD/DO's training qualifications (aside from your own). No one has directly or indirectly imply MDs to have any bias against DOs in any way.

Then why, still, DOs aren't popular in cities? Ever thought about the the general public's image on DOs? Public distrust is the biggest reason DOs are not popular in large cities.

Lastly, FoughtFyr, your responses are just creating an image for everyone that MDs are generally pompous and arrogant. Please refrain from calling people malicious names even if someone's wrong. I'd think that's just basic bedside manner for even the most average person -- and you claim to be a senior resident? I feel sorry for you.

 

[jesse14]

Re-read the thread Jesse. Once again you read quickly and chastise quicker. The question I was responding to was the bias (or lack thereof) against DOs (Doctors of Osteopathy). On the issue of biases within the medical profession against a specific type of provider - a type that I work side-by-side with daily in residency - I think I am fairly qualified. I'm sorry you disagree. In my experience, many people who know little of DOs prior to entering medical school are quite surprised to learn that they have all of the rights and privileges as MDs do in the hospital. They enter the same residencies and compete for the same jobs after residency - and do so without some "label" around their neck. If the top residency programs in the country accept DOs for training, it only logically follows that they compete for the best jobs after residency. And if an MD somehow gets through medical school with a continued "anti-DO" bias, it is always fun to see them assigned to a DO senior resident. Good times.

I would agree, I know nothing about the # of pts an Opthomologist sees in Rochester vs NYC, nor have I ever claimed to.

Jesse, I really hope that as your education goes on you learn how to read critically.

Happy Holidays!

- H

Who was promoting an anti-DO bias?? The optomatrist dude said that DO's arn't as popular as MD's (in terms of size, not staus). How does that coinicide with an anti-DO bias? Correct me if i'm wrong, but when luckyfool stated that more pts are seen by opthos in NYC than Rochester, you highlighted that point and said "Wow. You are REALLY misguided. It's o.k., you will learn better when you are in medical school. Best of luck" That tells me that you're diasgreeing with his assertion that opthos in NYC see more pts than opthos in Rochester (but then again, my critical reading skills are weak at best lol). Even though you never actually came out and refuted luckyfools's facts, you smulgley (is that a world? lol) asserted he was a bafoon... hence me coming in and asking you why you have a superiority complex 🙂

Good day

 

[gtleeee]

Before you jump to conclusions about other people's critical reading abilities, you really should evaluate about your own. There's no post in this thread that has said anything about differences/similarities on MD/DO's training qualifications (aside from your own). No one has directly or indirectly imply MDs to have any bias against DOs in any way.

Then why, still, DOs aren't popular in cities? Ever thought about the the general public's image on DOs? Public distrust is the biggest reason DOs are not popular in large cities.

Lastly, FoughtFyr, your responses are just creating an image for everyone that MDs are generally pompous and arrogant. Please refrain from calling people malicious names even if someone's wrong. I'd think that's just basic bedside manner for even the most average person -- and you claim to be a senior resident? I feel sorry for you.

This "popular in cities" nonsense is too silly to even touch. Although I have to admit, thats the most original fiction about D.O.s I have seen yet on SDN. LOL

 

[luckyfool]

This "popular in cities" nonsense is too silly to even touch. Although I have to admit, thats the most original fiction about D.O.s I have seen yet on SDN. LOL

Is he trying to tell me that DO's population in cities is comparable to MDs?
Constructive discussions only please.

 

[lesset01]

Hey guys? Sorry to butt in but I hate to see this discussion not only deviate from its original purpose, but also to get heated as well... The original point was to "lend someone a hand" and give them advice as to what they should do about a career change. Fighting about MDs and DOs and their roles in our society is best left to the optometry forum.

I know I'm not the moderator, but this is just plain annoying...Thanks for understanding 😳

 

[gtleeee]

Is he trying to tell me that DO's population in cities is comparable to MDs?
Constructive discussions only please.

Of course it's not comparable....D.O.s comprise only 5.5% (or approaching 6.0 % I believe) of the physician population (M.D. and D.O.) in the United States. "Landslide victory" for M.D.s in "cities" is a ridiculous statement. Your evidence for this is the physician roster for NYU University.) Your perception from the onset is silly using such phrases as "landslide victory for M.D.s" as if the 2 groups were 2 political parties vying for the vote. D.O.s are so integrated into the medical establishment in the United States that such notions of 2 groups of physicians directly competing against one another for "turf" is untrue and unsupportable. 40 years ago there was some validity for this before D.O.s integrated into the ACGME post graduate programs. People will often (and often not) become attendings at or close to where they trained. Even before this most D.O. post graduate programs were located in fairly large areas of population (medium and large cities). When I was a premed I (oridnarily) tried to learn from others who had a little more experience than I based on the notion that people with more experience in the field had by default more realistic perceptions of the realities of Healthcare. What foughtfyr was trying to do was give you the benefit of what knowledge he has acquired via his experience. As a premed you (as none of us did in the beginning) have little of such experience or knowledge. You would be better served by trying to learn from such people instead of more foolish smoke in an attempt to defend an unsupportable statement. Best of luck to you though. Other than that one opinion you write and express yourself rather well and I am sure after some thought on your previous opinion you will quietly abandon it.

 

[NylonNoMore]

Yes: I is quite obvious that an MD is better than a DO..

 

[blazenmadison]

Yes: I is quite obvious that an MD is better than a DO..

No more MD vs. DO.

 

[iiiimonica]

to debate md versus do

good luck to you all who want to be medical doctors, no matter what path you take

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I'm not saying OMDs dont make a lot. i concur that they make a heap load of money. Im just saying the amount of stress and time put into a practice is a lot -- because I work for one fulltime and know firsthand how stressful it is. The OMD at my place works more than 60 hrs per week, and most MDs do and sometimes exceeds 60 hr/week. If you are willing to sacrifice that little amont of time left in your day to make that extra money, be my guess. However, some of us actually thinks life is more than just money. Our families, friends and hobbies deserve some of our time too.

Sorry, your anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. There's something called statistical evidence that people like to believe.

For eye MD's mean work week is 43 hours, mean salary 230K. This is why ophthalmology is one hard ass residency to get Ophthalmologists by in large are not sacrificing their lives for work, and are some of the most satisfied docs out there.

 

[luckyfool]

Sorry, your anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. There's something called statistical evidence that people like to believe.

For eye MD's mean work week is 43 hours, mean salary 230K. This is why ophthalmology is one hard ass residency to get Ophthalmologists by in large are not sacrificing their lives for work, and are some of the most satisfied docs out there.

I was not trying to prove anything. I was just trying to help backman by giving him my firsthand experience of what the work of opthalmology is like in a large city. Of course there are people out there who makes tons of money and still be happy. Happiness is rather a relative term -- it varies from person to person. If you think some statistically random OMD is happy because he works 43 hrs a week and makes 230k, yet i don't believe he is? - it's just your words against mine. You can't prove job satisfaction either. 🙄

Sorry to all students who have to view this thread. It has been way out of context from the original intent. I will not post on this thread anymore, since backman's found his solution.

 

[gtleeee]

I was not trying to prove anything. I was just trying to help backman by giving him my firsthand experience of what the work of opthalmology is like in a large city. Of course there are people out there who makes tons of money and still be happy. Happiness is rather a relative term -- it varies from person to person. If you think some statistically random OMD is happy because he works 43 hrs a week and makes 230k, yet i don't believe he is? - it's just your words against mine. You can't prove job satisfaction either. 🙄

Sorry to all students who have to view this thread. It has been way out of context from the original intent. I will not post on this thread anymore, since backman's found his solution.

Now you are getting smarter lucky fool. Research first a bit, consider where your post lies in the spectrum from foolhardy written diarrhea to something worth while to impart to others is advice you can go to the bank on in the future.)

 

[wayttk]

<snip>
I was at a medical trade show for work and talked at length with an Major in the army medical service corps. He was HIGHLY recommending DO school.<snip>
Im just so unsure of the direction I should go in. Well... again... thanks for your thoughts. Keep them coming!

Perhaps the best of both worlds would be to apply for a DC position with the VA.

Go here: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/spinedocs/

There are several DCs there that can help you with this.

 

[gochi]

Whats up all... been reading some of the threads here. Im currently a Chiropractor looking to make a career change and looking to go to optometry school. Ive been in contact with some of the schools and it appears it will be nearly impossible for me to start 07 (no OATs and need college math prereqs) so probably looking to start 08. I thought I would post and get some feedback.

I knew about 1/2 way through the chiro program that I had made a mistake... but was encouraged by many voices... mostly wise... to finish out and get the degree. I did and I have been in the field for 3 years. I have worked in a clinical environment for 2+ years and took a 150 hour post-doc course in electrodiagnostics. Im currently working with a dx company performing needle emg/ncv. I am horribly disenchanted with the chiro profession (have been since school). It has its place... but there is a lot of bullarky and I just dont see myself as a Chiro my whole life. I am a good doc... and want to be a part of a profession that is defined by good docs rather than an exception to the majority (as I see it).

Med school was my initial plan since graduating... but the time commitment is just too much and I dont want to even approach being a slave to my career at the expense of family, social life, hobbies etc. I have some family in Optometry and some recent exposure to the field has peaked my interest but i want to do due diligence and make sure I am not making another choice I will regret.

So... one criticism (of many) of chiro school was that they failed to prepare adequately for the business end of the profession. Chiros are predominantly self-employed as are optometrists if my impression is correct. Im hoping that OD school recognizes that dynamic and adequately teaches their students about third party payers and the many other aspects of business ownership. Do you who are in the field or in school feel they prepare adequately in this area

I would also like to get a feel for what the profession is like... financially. Its not all about the money at all... but there are so many new chiros drowning because they just cant financially make ends meet. Is this a reality for OD's. What is the market place like. Im doing research but would value input

Im not worried about getting in or being successful in school. Ive done it and know I can do it no prob. Chiro school is demanding (i went to one of the good ones) and I have a solid base of A&P, pathology, diagnosis etc and a large skill set and relative wealth of clinical experience compared to most trad students. I just want to do all I can to make sure this is the right move. I am talking to OD's, getting involved in some volunteer capacities etc to immerse myself in the field a little bit. Any suggestions... words of encouragement/discouragement

I cant help but see the parallels in the comments posted in these forums compared to those in comparable chiro forums. The whole MD/OD bickering, "not real doctors" nonsense etc etc. All I want is to be a member of a profession where I am adequately trained to be a good doctor, provide a valuable service that I dont have to convince people they need (unlike so much of chiro), and feel content with and proud of what I am doing. Is it fair to say that the optometry profession is stable, comfortable in its own skin, and looking toward a bright future? I know there are third party payer issues, ego conflicts etc in all professions like this... but are these signs of discontent or instability like I percieve them to be in Chiro?

One more thing... im looking to commission with the army and go to OD school on scholarship (im already burried with chiro debt). Anyone going/gone this route? Any thoughts? I like the idea of serving my US and it seems to serve me well also in this respect.

Thanks for bearing with my uncoordinated rambling! Im still developing my thoughts and position. Your thoughts are valuable to me! I find it funny but so expected that there is no forum for Chiro's... especially with all the talk about who is a "doctor". Anyway... thanks ahead of time

Are you kidding me? You want to accumulate $200,000 on top of your already massive debt?

 

[cloud99]

Uhhhhh....Gochi?

You just responded to a 2 year old thread.

I bet that person actually made their own decision without your infinite wisdom.

 

[Od_IT]

Uhhhhh....Gochi?

You just responded to a 2 year old thread.

I bet that person actually made their own decision without your infinite wisdom.

👍

 

[gochi]

Uhhhhh....Gochi?

You just responded to a 2 year old thread.

I bet that person actually made their own decision without your infinite wisdom.

What? I can't give my opinion now?