Clarification

Started by Dr Dazzle
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Dr Dazzle

Dr Dazzle

Full Member
10+ Year Member
I have read very different opinions. How difficult is it to match into non primary care AOA residencies for competitive specialties? Is it more or less difficult than it is for MD students to match into the same competitive ACGME residencies? Of course the ACGME option is still open for DOs...for now....
 
I think there is some current debate on the issue with AMA potentially changing their rules.
 
I think the new bill says that DOs in some states need to do an AOA intern year. I guess the ACGME has a rule that PGY-2 DOs can't match into MD residencies so DOs in those states won't be able to match into ACGME residencies and thus won't be able to further specialize through their fellowships. I've heard there aren't a ton of competitive specialty DO residencies and even fewer for fellowships. I could be absolutely 10000% wrong on all of this though. 😛

Even without the bill it's harder for DOs just because of the sheer number of spots available through AOA for competitive residencies and it's obviously more difficult to get ACGME residencies as a DO. It's obviously not impossible though and most schools match at least a few students in these areas.

Bottom line: if you want to go into a competitive field it will be hard as a DO or an MD, just expect a few extra road bumps as a DO. It's definitely possible though.
 
Dr Dazzle said:
I have read very different opinions. How difficult is it to match into non primary care AOA residencies for competitive specialties? Is it more or less difficult than it is for MD students to match into the same competitive ACGME residencies? Of course the ACGME option is still open for DOs...for now....
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Still a student here so take what I say with a grain of salt. In other words, everything that follows should be prefaced with "someone said...."

Let's run with ortho. If you're a DO, you are going to have a bajillion times easier time matching AOA vs AGME. In other words, for ortho the ACGME route pretty much ISN'T an option for a DO for all practical purposes.

Whether matching DO as a DO is easier/harder than matching MD as an MD is pretty hard to quantify. You could always look at the successful match percentages but anyone who's taken any form of statistics course knows that stats never tell the whole story. They don't account for any type of self selection, etc.

To summarize. Competitive specialties are called that for a reason! They're hard to match.
 
As a DO, it is incredibly unlikely you will match Acgme dermatology, rad-oncology, or any surgical specialty, except for general surgery. Also, as a DO, even if you are a true baller, it is unlikely you will match at a top 15 program for anything besides PM&R, anesthesia, and family medicine. Everything else is do able.
 
MedPR said:
Rads.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
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I don't know if that's a question or statement or if you agree with me. But, from my classmates' experience, if you get around a 240 on the usmle, which is around average for radiology, you will get plenty of interviews if you apply broadly. I don't think radiology is super DO unfriendly. I just don't think many DOs apply to radiology with the correct scores.
 
MFMaspirant said:
There is plenty of information about this published by the NRMP here: http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html .

If you cross reference their reports you'll find that often the matched DO students have a lower average USML Step 1 score than their MD counterparts (http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf ).

With this report ( http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsbystate2012.pdf ), you can see state by state what ACME residencies DO's get. Every specialty as a DO, even neuro surgery.

Some helpful takeaway bullet points based on these data reports:

1) An independent applicant (DO/FMG/etc.), has a 51% chance of getting matched to Anesthesiology. The avg USMLE Step 1 score for an MD matched applicant is 226 and for an independent (DO/FMG/etc.) is 229.

2) For Dermatology, 42% of independent applicants are matched. The average USMLE Step 1 for MD matched is 244 and for independent applicants is 230.

3) For Diagnostic Radiology, 57% of independent applicants are matched. Average USMLE for MD matched is 240 and for independent matched is 235

Based on the data, the statistical difference for indepedent applicants who are matched and who aren't matched is based on number of schools ranked (i.e. 8 vs 3) and USMLE Step 1 score (i.e. 229 vs 213)

If you're determined to get an ACGME Residency then study hard for the USMLE and apply broadly.
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For whatever it's worth, I'm pretty sure DO board scores are not included in that data. If you look at charting outcomes, the number of unknown board scores is pretty similar, and some cases identical, to the number of DOs that matched into that field. There were, for example, 181 DOs that matched Acgme EM in 2011 and 178 of those that matched EM had unknown board scores. 118 DOs matched Acgme anesthesia and there were 117 unknown board scores. Then in the charting outcomes it says:

"Almost all of the applicants who did not have Step 1 scores were osteopathic medical school seniors and graduates who either take an alternative examination (the Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination, or COMLEX-USA) or who take the USMLE exams but whose data are not shared with the AAMC"

So, I don't think there is any objective data to indicate how hard or easy it is for DOs to match.
 
this maybe a dumb question, but why does it really matter if you match into a md vs do residency program? i mean, does a radiologist who went to a do residency spot earn less then his md counterpart? or is it that you have more job opportunities after completing a md residency then a do?
 
chipper10 said:
this maybe a dumb question, but why does it really matter if you match into a md vs do residency program? i mean, does a radiologist who went to a do residency spot earn less then his md counterpart? or is it that you have more job opportunities after completing a md residency then a do?
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Why does it matter if you do MD or DO residency? Some fellowships only exist in the MD world and some (all?) of those fellowships only take physicians who completed an MD residency. Also, there are simply more MD residencies than DO residencies and the MD residencies are located all over the country whereas DO residencies are concentrated in certain areas. In most cases you won't see a difference in salary or job opportunities based on if you did a MD or DO residency. However, completing an MD residency opens more doors than completing a DO residency just like going to an MD school opens more doors than going to a DO school.

If you want to keep all of your options open, you are better off going to an MD school/residency. The MD degree doesn't close the door on anything, not even OMM. The DO degree basically closes the door on all the top/most competitive MD residencies (though your chances as an MD grad are already quite low) and a DO residency may limit your fellowship options and therefore your ability to specialize.
 
chipper10 said:
this maybe a dumb question, but why does it really matter if you match into a md vs do residency program? i mean, does a radiologist who went to a do residency spot earn less then his md counterpart? or is it that you have more job opportunities after completing a md residency then a do?
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Given the current poor job market in radiology, any competitive edge you can gain by going to a bigger (networking) or well known (helps the CV) is recommended.
 
chipper10 said:
this maybe a dumb question, but why does it really matter if you match into a md vs do residency program? i mean, does a radiologist who went to a do residency spot earn less then his md counterpart? or is it that you have more job opportunities after completing a md residency then a do?
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In general, no, it doesn't matter. The only speciality that it may matter is anesthesia. Apparently some aoa board certified anesthesiologist have had problems getting hospital privlages. There is an issue with fellowships, though. If you do a DO radiology residency, for instance, in the near future you may be ineligible to do Acgme fellowships, which would significantly diminish your income potential.
 
What about dual AOA/ACGME approved residencies. Don't those exist? However, I'm not sure if these exist for competitive specialties. For IM though, it is probably beneficial to do this so you can at least go into cardiology, endo or nephrology programs. Correct me if I'm wrong. This whole thing is soo confusing. Also, can somebody extrapolate on what restrictions the ACGME is placing on DOs?
 
Dr Dazzle said:
What about dual AOA/ACGME approved residencies. Don't those exist? However, I'm not sure if these exist for competitive specialties. For IM though, it is probably beneficial to do this so you can at least go into cardiology, endo or nephrology programs. Correct me if I'm wrong. This whole thing is soo confusing. Also, can somebody extrapolate on what restrictions the ACGME is placing on DOs?
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The proposal says you need to do an acgme residency to do an acgme fellowhip. Also, if you match a post graduate year 2 (pgy2) spot, like neurology, anesthesia, or radiology, your post graduate year 1 (pgy1) spot must be an acgme internship. You can no longer do an AOA internship then go onto an acgme residency.

acgme/aoa residencies, to the best of my knowledge, are only found in FM, IM, and EM.
 
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